For those that don't know my story I'll recap the pertinent info.

Wife and OM worked together at a "sea park" in the early 80's.

They were always uncomfortably close. She'd glow when she spoke of him. He always made me feel uncomfortable. We were dating at the time and I questioned the friendship.

I'm a guy I know the secret motivations of guys that want to be friends with attractive women.

I discovered an EA in Feb '02. Was told that the friendship had been rekindled in late 2000 and that it didn't turn to a EA until early 2001.

Discovered it was a PA in Sept '03.

Didn't get much info until Spring/Summer '04.

Since she had known OM so long ago and had worked with him before, during & after our engagement, I asked her if they had had something going on back then. She said,"no." I asked if it was a case of unfinished business since I always felt wierd about their friendship. She said, "no."


Now to present. Recovery has been underway since this summer.

Over the holiday, I was dumping years worth of tax back up info that I didn't realize I had. I had to shred alot of it instead of just dumping it. So saw old phone records that showed that the W and OM have been in at least occassion contact since the early 90's.

I'm at a complete loss. If the contact back then was innocent then why did she withold it from me when answering the questions of the affair???

Understand that every step of the way since DDay 1 and then DDay2, my wife has only admitted something when presented with irrefutible evidence.

Sigh

Opinions please.

Mac

<small>[ January 07, 2005, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm at a complete loss. If the contact back then was innocent then why did she withold it from me when answering the questions of the affair???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would think as a conflict avoider, she denies anything until she is presented with the evidence.

If she was in contact and kept it from you, even though she claims it was innocent..I believe that the moment a decision was made by her to keep it a secret from you is the moment that her A...be it EA (and/or PA) started. She made a conscious decision to keep it from you...deceive you...she knew it was wrong... she didn't want to hurt you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

She doesn't want to admit that she was wrong, that she has been in an EA then PA as long as she has.

I can't see that you are in real recovery until she becomes an open book...ie: agree to radical honesty, is remorseful as well as repentant and takes full responsibility for her actions.

Lies of omission are still lies in my book.

They just lie all the time. I am also at a loss to know how they can be so blatant about it.

DO NOT BELIEVE A WORD SHE SAYS.

FOG FOG FOG FOG FOG FOG

Mac, me again.

I've often told you that your w and my A's are very parallel and this is another case of it.

Briefly, I met OM (obviously when he wasn't OM) once outside our children's preschool and talked to him for about an hour. I told Rob I'd seen him. At dinner at a friend's that weekend she told Rob that "Jenny had spent hours talking to some strange man". There was a lot of hilarity about old flames from everyone else but Rob was very uncomfortable.

Next time I saw him was about 15 years later outside my office. Talked to him for about 10 minutes but this time I didn't tell Rob. No particular reason, mainly because there was nothing to tell and it seemed ridiculous to worry him over nothing.

In hindsight I probably should have told him - could have saved a lot of grief later.

Well, you know the rest. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Do you really think your w is keeping things intentionally? I mean, I know she has in the past but the only relevance I can see is that you are very concerned, probably rightly so, that he was on her mind the whole time until she started the EA.

Would that make a difference? It's what you've suspected all along anyway. I'm sure it's in the back of Rob's mind all the time as well but he's never asked apart from mentioning that I got a glowy look whenever I looked at the old photos over the years.

Wasn't her A "unfinished business" like mine and isn't that "business finished" now?

What would help you move forward?

Edited to add: I've just reread my post and it sounds almost like a 2x4. I can assure you it's not meant to be - I'm just concerned for you and thought my .2c worth might help. Insight into your w's brain I guess.

Jen

<small>[ January 06, 2005, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ. ]</small>

Trix, DH & good ol' Jen,
Thanks for all the replies. I need as many opinions here as possible.

Trix,
I agree with everything you've posted

DH,
It's been years since all of this BS so I thought the fog had lifted. I truely don't believe that she's been in contact with OM, however this discovery makes me doubt all.

Jen,
I didn't take your post as a 2x4.

You asked... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What would help you move forward?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The complete unadulterated truth of what happened. I seek the truth that's all.

She claims as I said in my post that it wasn't unfinished business.

She claims that she has told the entire truth. That is until some new piece of info blows the "truth" to bits.

Again I thank you for your post and it is worth more than a few penneys.

I think I'm married to a person who would rather lie than feel even a bit uncomfortable. It is very sad.

Mac

<small>[ January 06, 2005, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

bump for additional opinions/ thoughts

Mac

Well, you don't need mine again. LOL.

We're all having a drink on Idiotville. Why don't you come over. I'm being bartender.

Jen

Hi cwmac,

Other opinions/thoughts? Hmmm .... I would say that its not necessarily the case that your W has lied about having felt previous attraction (EA??)during the 90s for OM, BUT it must be clear to her now that you might see it that way, given what has happened since, and that this must be a huge trigger for you.

Did she tell you that she has occasionally been in contact with him over the last 10 years or so?
I mean, did she actually lie about this, or is this not something you've directly discussed, since you already knew they were friends in the 80s? Can you bring it up with her in a non-accusative way?

How much have you two discussed how destructive it is that she withholds information from you, even (especially!) if its something 'innocent'?

If she has directly lied about ever being in contact in the 90s, I can see that it must be extremely difficult for you. This is incredibly important, she surely must know that by now. Have you talked about what she needs to do in the future to make you feel safe?

Smur,
All good questions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did she tell you that she has occasionally been in contact with him over the last 10 years or so?
I mean, did she actually lie about this, or is this not something you've directly discussed, since you already knew they were friends in the 80s? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me because of these feelings from our early years... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They were always uncomfortably close. She'd glow when she spoke of him. He always made me feel uncomfortable. We were dating at the time and I questioned the friendship.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked as noted </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Since she had known OM so long ago and had worked with him before, during & after our engagement, I asked her if they had had something going on back then. She said,"no." I asked if it was a case of unfinished business since I always felt wierd about their friendship. She said, "no."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked if they had been in contact all along and she said "no" that the... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> friendship had been rekindled in late 2000 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To add further she said that he had sent her an invite "out of the blue" to a showing/exhibit of his amateur photography. We lived at the same address for years so that made some sense.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How much have you two discussed how destructive it is that she withholds information from you, even (especially!) if its something 'innocent'? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ever since DDay1 and then again at DDay2 I have discussed with her how important the thruth is to rebuilding trust, which is the underpin to recovery.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is incredibly important, she surely must know that by now. Have you talked about what she needs to do in the future to make you feel safe? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She knows, but it seems to be all about her and what she's willing to do. It can't be too uncomfortable.

The whole point is that she knows that of the thousands of men that she could have had an affair with this one in particular would do the most damage so she appears to be continuing the soft pedal sell of the affair.

Looking back on how the two of them acted together. I really wonder why they didn't break things off with their fiancees and give it a go themselves. Were they too naive about their feelings? As in "you are my soulmate, but I promised to marry her (he was engaged first I believe).

Not looking forward to discussing any of this with her. Maybe I should just swallow it and move on. I should just assume that they've been these tortured soulmates for my entire marriage.

The person who I feel the most for is his second wife. All of this contact has definitely been gong on since their marriage. In fact the communication appeared to increase while he was single again. Does that surprise anyone?? By then we had two young daughters. Must have been a tough choice for my W to stay in the marriage.

Should I call the OM's W with this new info?? I haven't spoken to her in a year and really only 3 times total. I think she cringes when she hears my voice on the phone.

Thanks for the post Smur.

Mac

bump for other thoughts

Hi mac,

The first thought that came to my mind after reading all the posts is that your WW was keeping information from you to protect herself from discovery and more review.Afterall,the more you have to discuss and clarify the actions of the WS the more uncomfortable they can become.In my brief time in recovery alone,my WH felt like he wanted to keep certain aspects of the A to himself,like some sort of special prize he would let no other know about.He even told me it was none of my business on occasion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Only until I called him on this and it was apparent that it was necessary for complete openess and honesty did he reluctantly agree to spill more of what happpened.The sad part is that you may just never know ALL of what transpired.

Maybe for some here they can tell all and remember all but I think for some,the lying and sneaking becomes a part of their MO.The more you pry the more they look bad and the more they want to avoid all that messiness.It's inconvenient to deal with as WS but for us it's part of the complete puzzle.I can't tell you how may times I heard the phrase, "We're just friends". The kind of half truth statements that lead you one way but not on track,you know? Like giving you the slip until you know the facts.

So,you may confront your WW about this,she may or may not admit to the OM being more at the time.If she does,then you are left wondering what is really truth from this woman? That was always going to be probably the hardest part for me if I remained in recovery.Just what would be truth form my WH who had lied and cheated on me for all those months.How would I ever know from now on? If she is still in self protect mode,that is not conducive to a healthy and full recovery,if that's possible.

Anyway,I don't have an answer for you but am interested in what your WW would have to say about this.Are you going to ask her? Her reaction too would be very important here.

O

Octobergirl,
Thanks for the post.

Well, I didn't need to ask my wife about it. Yesterday I had called the local phone provider to ask how far back they keep records. Today they returned the call but they goofed the number by a few didgits which of course is my wife's number.

She called me at the office. Of course she turned it around on me. She said that this is never going to work because I don't trust her. She just doesn't get it.

I told her that for the past several months the trust level had been increasing on my part, but when I saw the calls from the earlier years I started to doubt.

She told me that she didn't tell me about the occassional call once a year between friends bc I blow everything out of proportion.

I tried to explain that she needed to tell me info before it was discovered.

She basically freaked and said that I'd never trust her so why bother.

I almost think she's right.

There seems to be no compromise here. She wants and end to the mistrust and I need the entire story before trust can return.

It takes years to rebuild trust after it's been broken by infidelity. It can't return overnight.

Well there is a way but I'd guess most FWSs wouldn't agree to taking a polygraph.

Mac

CW: It's been a while since I've posted to you.

With the phone companies slip up, I'm not sure if you're still looking for opinions or not, but here's mine.

I can understand what you're going through everytime you find out new pieces of information. Brings about more doubts and insecurities. I guess I would ask, prior to the phone company gaff "How was your W acting." Did it feel like the two of you were making any emotional headway? Has she agreed to do any of the work in regards to recovery? I guess I don't really have an answer for you, but more questions. Maybe they will help you to formulate your own answer. Sorry I'm not more help. Best of luck to you!

RH

Hi cwmac,

Its a shame that the company slipped up and called your W like that , and its also a shame that she reacted like that.
When she says "that you blow everything out of proportion', what does she mean? How do you react, I guess, is the question, do you use LBs or is it just that you are upset, hurt etc and tell her that, and she can't cope with your honest expression of emotion?

This situation is in some ways eerily like mine - not at all in the details, but maybe in some ways in the emotions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He always made me feel uncomfortable. We were dating at the time and I questioned the friendship. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At the time, how did you react when the two of you had conversations about him?

I suppose what I was thinking is, if in fact your W's friendship with him back then was 'innocent', in the sense that it was not an EA, because even if she felt some sort of attraction to him, it was never spoken of between them or acknowledeged, then..
perhaps your reaction about him was what led your W to begin keeping anything to do with him a secret from you, if she is a conflict avoider by nature.
Then if she had already got into the habit of keeping anythign about him a secret from you, then it must have been natural for her to keep it at secret when they renewed contact, when it turned into an EA, when it turned into a PA... etc. Please don't don't take this as defending her behaviour at all - I understand that keeping things secret is devastating to Rs. I guess what I'm tryign to understand is her motivation and the dynamics involved.

If you read the comments by Peggy Vaughan about As, her philosophy is that the only thing that can guarantee against As is being committed to discussing it with you S if you feel attraction for another person, and both spouses being ready to accept that information and 'reward' the S for their honesty, rather than 'punish' them about it. ie recognising that feeling attraction to an OP is common, doesn't necessarily mean there is anything wrong with the M and is not a 'fantasy' that absolutely needs to be kept secret.

In the years before my A (ONS), my H was occasionally jealous of me for no reason that related to me - my behaviour towards OP never gave him any reason to think that of me, and he agreed with that, when we discussed it rationally. But he had abandonment issues relating to his childhood and he would therefore occasionally get jealous of me when I went away on trips for work. So its actually really strange that my ONS happened when I was away on a work trip. I spent 6 months or so in IC tryign to understand my behaviour, because I was shocked and horrified at myself, a month or two later, once it all sank in.

What I now understand was that I had buried resentments against my H for a whole range of issues in our R which we had never fully discussed, which gave me a sense of entitlement when I felt attraction to the OM.
One of the things that I felt resentful about was that, in the past, whenever I had been away on work trips, and spent a lot of time worried about him, I came back and found him jealous and angry at me for no reason that related to me. It seemed unjust.

Anyway, just some things to think of, sorry its so long and hope its relevant!

<small>[ January 09, 2005, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: smur ]</small>