Really sad.

I live in a fairly small town in the UK. All I know about this is what I have read in the papers. B4 Xmas, there was a "stabbing incident" in our town late one Friday night which upset everyone. Apparently a man went berserk with a knife at a young woman's apartment and in the fight which followed, the young woman was stabbed and died of her injuries later in the hospital, the two young men she was with were also stabbed, but survived, and the suspect was also stabbed. All three men ended up in the hospital, with a police guard on the suspect.

Last week, the suspect was charged with her murder, and attempted murder of the two young men. He is now in prison awaiting trial.

I was shocked to see the name of the suspect as one of my work colleagues, someone I have known for two years. At work, we are all totally stunned. I didn't know him on a personal level, we only ever related about work needs (he is one of our IT technicians) - but I can honestly say that I would never have dreamed that this person could be capable of such a disturbing and frightening, terrible thing. He was kind, conscientious, helpful, intelligent, obviously enjoyed his work, which he was very good at. Unfailingly polite.

The story I have heard through the grapevine is that his GF had met someone else, they had broken up, he had taken it hard, but he actually had told another of my colleagues that he had put it behind him now, he had a new GF and that he was moving on with his life. We at work are all stunned that this could have happened.

I don't know any more details of the case at all. Everyone is very sad about the loss of the poor girl's life - apparently she was a lovely person and very well-liked by everyone. But it appears to be obvious that he had not "got over it" or "moved on" - some sort of late night confrontation took place, things escalated totally out of control with the worst possible result.

Whllst I feel sad about the girl, I also feel sad for my work colleague. As I knew him, even only slightly, I realize that it is not only her life that is lost, her family's life destroyed, but his, also - I believe he also has a child from a former R.

I'm posting this here because I so often see emotions running very high on this board - and I know myself, as a former BS, how strong the urge can be to confront the OP. Clearly, confrontation is not always the most sensible thing to do. Please, please, if you are posting on these boards, and ask for help, try to listen to those with experience who caution you to calm down and think, think, think about what you are tempted to do. My work colleague was an ordinary, perfectly nice person who you would never dream would have been capable of hurting someone else - and I think that all of us have a limit and are capable of things we can't imagine. For most people, it doesn't extend to murder. But this has brought home to me that that outcome is sometimes closer to home than you realize.

I am also wondering if anyone else has any experience of this. I am concerned about the guy - he must be in a terrible state. I am not sure whether its the right thing to do, but I am a Christian, and I feel bad for him. I know there is nothing I can do to help him - many would say he is totally beyond the pale now - obviously he will spend the rest of his life having to pay for what he has done and he deserves punishment - but I am tempted to send him a card just saying I am praying for him. Does anyone have any opinions about this idea?

LIR

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Yes, sad for all. Her pain is over, his has just begun.

The failty of humans and the power of emotions if left unchecked is pretty scary when dealing with infidelity.

Another tragedy for sure. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Yeah weaver,

And that's my point for posting it here - that in my experience, infidelity can be the catalyst for the strongest and worst of all emotions and people who wouldn't otherwise behave badly can end up with their lives destoryed - many lives destroyed.

I think we all have to take a step back sometimes.

Blessings to you.

LIR

LiR, I don't think a card is out of order. Maybe nobody in his life before has experienced those extreme emotions like he has, except you. Obviously you didn't act on them, but there were times I know I was in a rage, and wanted to do something horrible ~ lash out in my pain.

It wasn't from infidelity, but a friend of mine at my old office in another state called me last year and told me that the body of a former co-worker had laid out in her parking lot for an entire day before the city got the coroner out there. He was a perfectly ordinary man, with a wife and kids, who was laid off that morning. He went to the parking lot, opened the trunk, got out his shotgun, and killed himself right there, in front of his co-workers, and boss, and everybody.

His boss felt horrible, of course. But his lay-off was not the decision made by one person. Some men might go to a bar and get drunk. Some men might go home and immediately start "calling in favors" to get interviews. And this is what this man did. You just can never know what is going on in someone's life, what they are thinking or feeling.

My H said this is one big lesson he learned from his A. The OW told him EVERYthing he wanted to hear. And he believed it all and thought it was real. Then after time, he realized it was HER way of getting what SHE wanted ~ didn't have much to do with him at all.

*sigh* What a tragedy. I think we should form Infidelity support groups all over the world. My friend is convinced I should start one here. I am AMAZED at how many people, after learning of mine and H's struggle through, and survival of, infidelity, come to me for support. It is shocking. It is everywhere.

Take care, LiR. I am sorry you are going through this. I understand what a heart-breaker it is, and mind-bender. Like the end result doesn't equate with the beginning ingredients, or something.

Spidey

I am sorry but I do think a card is out of order...

it is misplaced in my opinion....

it is us... the collective that must stand behind the legal system that executes the punishment....

we can not seperate ourselves from the jail and the system that must act our law, and undermine their role..to attempt to soothe this type of offense is not right ...

the jails and the systems stand because we the people must cry out that no matter the emotional stress and turmoil...human life is sacred...

it is our duty to stand behind the justice that the victims deserve...

if we excuse this behavior...and I am not saying you are.....based on emotions...triggers...etc..then we condone the murder....

LIR pray for the survivors...pray for the victims...

pray for him LIR...God mourns his choice...and it was a choice regardless of the emotions...

people that lived next to Dalmer and Bundy thought they were nice people as well....

this also, no matter the driving emotions, was a violent senseless crime...no matter that womans actions she died a terrible and tragic death...

Gods grace and forgiveness is un-ending...
this man is in Gods hands and he will know his heart...

LIR I adore you and all your posts..
It is sad to see someone we know make such a choice...but it was a choice...

ARK

Yes, it was a choice. And it is done. This man is still a human being. He still deserves love and compassion. To think that any crime is unforgivable . . .

And LiR is not undermining the justice system with a card. He will still be punished by the system. He will probably spend the rest of his life in that system, for an act that took such little time to commit. And I am not excusing his actions. He chose them, and that will be with him forever.

Damer and Bundy were serial murders, sociopaths. Premeditated murder and crimes of passion are treated differently in a courtroom for a reason.

Just MHO.

Spidey

spidey..

I agree he deserves compassion...
I say let the jail stand as our compassion...
for he will be care taken of...

jail is the removal from society..
that is the punishment...

how hard it is for the people that do the 'dirty' work...
day in day out...weekends nights holidays aways from their own families caretaking of murderers...

and for us..the exact collective that say we need to be protected from...sending support to those jaild.....as if it is not us society that says this is wrong...but the jail and system is the one.... in my opinion undermines the consequance of the crime...

the caretakers themselves become the enemy as we line up support to those we insist they watch...

he certainly deserves compassion to be taken care of...and there are people that do that...

we must be the system...not removed from the system...

ARK

Infidelity murder of passion....

My highschool friend married her boyfriend right after graduation. I knew both of them, but I knew her much better. We acted in plays together. They were the "perfect" family. He was a much admired police officer.

After more than 25 years of marriage, her body was discovered in the trunk of a car. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> The car in which she was found was parked backed into the parking space, the way police have been trained to park in order to permit a fast exit.

Suspicion pointed to her H. H was distraught. The investigation began.

The H disappeared after 2 or 3 days. Their grown children were desperate.

They found H in the local mountains, having shot himself. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Sometimes, infidelity is the tipping point where someone gets killed.

The W was instrumental in planning all our highschool reunions .... which was supposed to occur 6 months after the murder-suicide.... and of course was cancelled.

Pep

I guess without knowing the entire story, I am not so quick to withdraw my understanding.

I know that at times during the pain of my H's A, especially pre-D-day, when I knew something was wrong and was being lied to, I was extremely volotile. A fact the scared the daylights out of me. I have often wondered what would have happened if I had caught H and my former best friend, the one night I was suspicious and WAS driving by her house each hour like a madwoman.

If he and her would have pulled up while I was watching, . . . I think at the very least SOMEone would have had to call the cops.

Just as we say anyone is capable of having an A in the right circumstances, . . . what if the same is true for a crime of passion?

At this point, LiR probably thinks a card is too controvercial to send, and perhaps it is. I know at one point during my H's A, he WISHED I would die, so he could be with OW guilt-free. I know there is a BIG difference between that and, say, what happened to Lacy Peterson. But the thought was there, and I have forgiven that.

I understand what you are saying, ARK. I guess I just cannot put out of my head how much a caring card would mean to me, if the situations were reversed, from people who could still see me as more than a murdering animal. Could still remember that I was once a "normal" person, perhaps thrust into a very unnatural painful situation, and things got way, tragically, out of control.

I guess that is where my head and heart are at.

Peace. Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry but I do think a card is out of order...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hmmmmmmm... imagining myself wandering into Hallmark store.... asking the clerk:

"Excuse me... Do you have any sympathy cards for a person in jail for murdering his former lover?"

.... and the Hallmark employee giving me this look ---> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> followed by ---> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> followed by ---> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

and then handing me a "blank inside" card with a flower arrangement on the outside.

Pep

A tragedy indeed. Thankfully almost all BSs have enough of their wits about them to avoid such desperation.

But these words jumped out at me......
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
<strong> - but I can honestly say that I would never have dreamed that this person could be capable of such a disturbing and frightening, terrible thing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">......, as the assessment we usually assign to the WSs in our lives.

An unfair comparison? I think not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Pep said: hmmmmmmm... imagining myself wandering into Hallmark store.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, then there is that . . .

Thanks for the replies, guys - believe me, I didn't expect everyone to agree - its just that I felt I needed a place to talk about it - I've talked to my H, and my work colleagues, and my family, as one does, and there's not much anyone can say, as you can imagine....we are all just stunned, like I said.

First off - about sending a card....I'm not sure about it, which is why I asked for opinions...I'm really interested in what everyone here thinks....

In no way, am I justifiying, or sympathizing with what he did...but I can understand the strength of feelings that could have been involved...and the tragic way that a highly-charged situation could have got totally out of control...

The incident happened at her house, so he obviously went there, but we don't know the circumstances of why...it was late at night on a Friday...maybe they had all been drinking, which is a big problem in the UK...I have heard that she was "two-timing" him....I have heard from two people that my colleague "lost it" and went for the OM, and then the girl got in the way, that my colleague didn't mean to kill her, or set out to kill her, but if that story is true, it sure looks like he was trying to kill the OM. Its a terrible, tragic waste of lives. The other known fact is that they were not married, they were only BF and GF, and they were not living together. I don't know their R history.

It goes without saying that she had every right to break off a R with my colleague, if she felt like it, and does not deserve to be murdered for it. Even if they had been married, no choice on the part of a WS justifies murder - please don't think I am in any way, shape or form condoning or sympathizing with that kind of action.

All I do know is he was a nice guy that I worked with for 2 years - and like WAT said - its that fact which is so upsetting...this is not a Jeffrey Dahmer or a Ted Bundy...or a Scott Petersen...this is a guy like anybody else, who totally lost control of himself and his emotions and did something totally unacceptable to any civilized person...

...and yes, he will be locked away and pay for it...

...but what if it were you?

...that's the real tragedy...most murders, or killings, if you want to call it that, because in this case, we don't know that this was premeditated or anything like that....most killings are "domestics" - things like this where someone is killed in a moment of rage by someone they know....

...its scary to me that I know a person who was able to lose control of himself so completely...

...its scary to me to think that if he could do that, then probably a lot of the other people I know could be capable of that, too...

...its scary to me to think of being in contact with someone who did something like this...

...but what if it were you?

...this isn't a career criminal, or a serial murderer...and as far as the justice system being our representative...yes, I agree with that...he needs to pay the price for what he has done....but he has been thrown in with the career criminals and the serial murderers....that's part of the price he is now paying...how would you feel if it were you?

I use a Scripture study leaflet that I get on a monthly subscription....part of their ministry, which I haven't really appreciated before, is to get their publication into prisons....they often have articles about what its like being in prison...prayer groups and services in prison...Christmas behind bars...prison chaplaincy...and the high rate of suicide amongst prisoners...

...as bad as some of the things these people have done, they are still human beings...

..I'd have to disagree with you, ark on the idea that our justice system represents us in showing people like my colleague compassion in prison....

...the prison systems, and mental hospitals, for that matter, are full of guards who seek that kind of employment so that they can exercise power over people who have no power....there are also a lot of "good" prison officers out there (my boss's husband is one of them)...

...prison chaplaincies exist because prisoners still have emotional and spritual needs...they are some of the most forgotten and reviled of people....some can be saved...

...and the law should, and does differentiate between different types of murder for a reason...crimes of passion can be acts taken under "diminished responsiblity"...its really up to the law to try to figure out whether that is the case...sometimes it is, and sometimes, it is not....

...I don't know any more about this case than what I've said here, so I'm not in a position to judge...that's for the trial....

But I appreciate everyone's opinions....

And I also wanted to make the point that we, on these boards, often see feelings running very high, and as a caution....it CAN lead to this, which is why it is so important on these boards to always try to be respectful, and not vent in a way that might be construed to mean approving violence against a WS.

Thanks, guys, I'm still undecided.

LIR

I'm not a Christian. But... I like the idea of redemption.

So... this man who has killed. Does he deserve compassion? Even though he's done something that is unalterably wrong and irretrievably harmful, my answer is yes.

Penny Tupy talks sometimes about situations where there is no longer an ethical choice -- an ethical choice being one that causes no harm to anyone. This is one of those places. The harm is already done, and horrible. The question then becomes what he can do for the greater good of all, even when the harm is known and hideous.

He can't ever repay the life he's taken. It's gone. He -can- spend his life paying forward his debt. It's not enough, of course -- but at the same time, who knows how many other lives he might save? I can't compare the value of one life to another. I can only hope that he will choose a path like that. If you're able to encourage him to do so, then I think it's good for you, for him, and for society as a whole.

When I read about things like this, and I think about infidelity, I'm really sad. I'm sad for the people who've done things that can never be fixed, because someone died. They can't ever make amends.

I'm also sad for the situations where everyone is still alive... and yet the harm continues because the people doing the harm refuse to stop, and refuse to make amends.

Hi, Lady_In_Red.

In many personal discussions I have had, and in many I have read here and other places, there are those that maintain they are incapable of committing certain 'sins' like murder or adultery.

If we are to believe the bible, or even understand anything about human nature by mere observance, it becomes clear that anyone is capable of anything.

None of us are safe from ourselves. I consider that very sad, even if it is a simple fact of life.

If you think you can send a card and impart something constructive and of value to this person's life, then go ahead.

All the best,
Gimble

LIR,

What a tragedy!

Have you found any more background on him? I wonder if this is the first violent episode that he has been involved in. I'm sure Scott Peterson seemed like a nice guy to many people who know him. His wife's parents even supported his innocence at first.

I know that any person can be driven over the edge, but as you said, this was not his wife, nor even his live-in GF. His reaction was extreme, and as you say, probably lubricated by drink.

For myself, I cannot imagine doing any intentional violence against my wife - against the OM, perhaps, but never against her. If I had by some extreme situation been brought to such a thing, I would have killed myself instead. But that's just me.

So, although on first telling, your story spawned some sympathy in me for this man, now I feel none.

Honestly, the only time in my life I have attacked anybody physically, was the first time I met OM in person - caught him with my wife on a absolutely dark beach at 1am. I tried to choke him. I'm a wimp - a desk jockey, and probably couldn't have hurt OM very much. My FIL (who was with me looking for my w) reacted by beating the crap out of OM. I regret the episode.

My FIL was 64 at the time, but a very very tough dude. He laid OM (age 25 at the time) on his back with one blow, then started stomping on his face - like he was trying to kill a rat. We had to pull FIL off of OM. FIL has a large garden and no running water. Every morning in the summer, he pulls 200 large buckets of water out of the well, carries them into his garden and waters his veggies. This was in August. You can imagine what kind of shape he was in.

Still, in that unfortunate incident, nobody touched my wife. I can't imagine harming her in any way.

So, from my perspective, there is no way that this man loved the girl - he just thought he owned her.

-AD

<small>[ January 09, 2005, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

hi
As I understadn it at the moment this man has been charged but not asctually found guilty of the murder. In this country we have the belief that every one is inocent until proved guilty. On that basis alone I think that if you feel to send him some words of comfort by card while not condoning the action that took place then you should do so.
Jante

Thanks for the replies - very much.

AD - I really appreciate your response. In a way, you just confirmed for me what I have been thinking - that in these situations - I am talking about the situation where you find yourself confronting the OP, and your hurt and anger are very raw - and finding your wife with OM on a dark beach is just about as bad as it can get when you discover your S is having an affair - even good people can do horrible things - you guys are really "lucky" you didn't kill OM, because if you had, you'd be in jail now, just like my colleague. Your story just confirms my feelings that it is not a good idea to go looking for the OP - things can easily get out of control.

We don't know all the facts, so I am not passing judgement on the guy, except to say that if he is guilty of taking her life, he is guilty and he will spend the rest of his life paying for it. But we don't know his motivation - you can't say he thought he owned her anymore than you can say you thought you owned your wife. If its true that he flipped and went for the other man, and the girl got in the way, then he did no more than your dad did, but with more tragic results - you can kill a man with your bare hands, and stomping on a man's face can easily do it. All I'm saying is I can understand how high feelings can run in these situations.

I think JustJ, you helped put into words what I have been feeling - you are SO articulate - thank you! It's done. It's totally, absolutely horrible. If it was a flash of "insanity" caused by his jealous rage, yes, its scary - and yes, he will pay for it. But if some good can be encouraged by treating him like a human being, despite what he's done...expressing concern for him and just letting him know I am praying for him, then maybe it is worth doing...if I did send him a card, there is no way I would express any sympathy for him...I think that is not appropriate...expressing concern for his welfare and expressing sympathy are totally different things...I think the first is OK, but the latter is totally unacceptable...

The other thing to consider is that the only witnesses to this are the OM and OM's friend...how can anyone be sure that OM didn't attack my colleague first? - what if he defended himself, and the girl got in the way of the fight?...who would believe him?

...it's easy to assume a lot, especially when someone is charged with murder....my colleague also suffered stab wounds and in the paper it said that he was not capable of being interviewed by the police, so he must have been injured badly. Maybe OM and OM's friend were defending themselves...but if my colleague had ended up dead, as well - then they could be the ones on trial for murder....that's why a person is innocent until proven guilty....

I agree with you Jante...I think that's extremely important....

I do think, like Gimble, that all of us are capable of more evil than we believe we are...I guess the older I get, and the more I see stuff like this, the more I accept the fact...it doesn't make me hate people...it makes me more wary of them....it also gives me more compassion....

And I agree with you JustJ - it doesn't take reaching the stage of murder for infidelity to wreck lives....

One of the reasons why I still come back to this board, though, is because I see so much good going on here....so many people trying to help each other....if we continue to try to help each other....maybe we can prevent some of these things from happening....even if we don't know we have...

LIR

<small>[ January 09, 2005, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

LIR,

Hey, I don't know much of anything - and nothing about this man and his story.

Do as you feel led.

BTW, just to clarify a bit, it was my W's Dad who beat the crap out of OM, not my Dad. I think he was embarrassed to find his daughter in that situation. And... they were fully clothed and standing up - not even touching each other when we found them. I don't think anything "happened". My w is too modest to do anything like that on a public beach - even at 1am.

... and although my FIL had the physical capacity to kill the guy, I know that he certainly would not have done so.

-AD

<small>[ January 09, 2005, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

LIR and others.

I learned lots of things through the course of my coping with Squids affair. Among them are that I realise life is far far more tenuous than I always believed. "Life is but a slender thread, which once is cut, and we are dead'.

I considered taking my own life , quite lucidly, as a way of ending unbearable hurt.

I have real empathy now with suicidal people. I alway sthought weakness/cowardace/oddballs committed suicide but now...well..dispairing people do just to get some peace.

Also for a while back then I considered killing OM. I worked out how and where. in fact all I needed to do was get in my car and drive to the place and the man who was complicit in the death of my old life would have receved justice from me.


Then I realised in prayer that OMs GF and his young son would be devastated by that , worse even that I have been. More innocents destroyed.

Even at my desperate low I couldn't do it. I wonder what OM would think if he even found out how close he was to being killed.....

So, what this guy did was wrong, and unlike infidelity (another terrible insult like murder) it is not recoverable.

But I can sympathise , even empathise with him.

Strange, infidelity. It changes all part sof us doesn;t it?

I wouldn't send a card unless you are CERTAIN that you know what message you want to send and ow he will receive it.