I was just taking it easy yesterday and opened my VICTORIA SECRETS CLOTHES CATALOG. This is the one that does not focus on lingerie.

The models kept reminding me of someone in how they dressed. YEP, the OW. Camisoles under open sweaters, earrings with large hoops, tight low-cut jeans... YUK!!

How do these women know this seductive form of dressing? Is there an instruction book somewhere? I'm sure my FWH found this alluring when he visited the office where she was the receptionist...

Plus yesterday he was telling me how I should think about DRESSING DOWN on Fridays for work.. That would mean wearing jeans to work.....

So last night I had one of my recurring nightmares of him telling me that he was leaving. He held me and comforted me as usual after I woke up.

I'm praying that one day that this will all go away...

Just venting. Any comments/feedback are welcomed.

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

((Mimi))

Do you normally wear jeans? If not it might be something cute to show FWH, unless that would trigger you too much?

I have a few triggers of my own. I think with time they go away.

Morning, Mimi...

How nice I get to take a turn on your thread. I'm going to shoot from the hip with LOTS of generatlizations, not to be meant to fit everyone.

Okay, from a guy perspective. I think it intinuitive that women know that MOST men are visually attracted, whereas MOST women are emotionally attracted. (Disclaimer: note the MOST part). It is very, very easy to see the differences in style that women wear where I work. I will go further out on the limb to say that the quantity of clothing worn is OFTEN directly proportional to the character of the woman wearing it. (How's that for being analytical?).

We have a new HR manager here who just moved here from CA (she's in culture shock too). She is an extremely attractive young lady (maybe 30), bubbly personality, very smart, fit and trim. But I don't see how she wears the things to work that she does. I interact with her a lot as we're in hiring mode and she's leading my personnel search. She was sitting across from my desk the other day and it appeared to me she was wearing a lacy black bra with an unbuttoned see-thru white sweater over the top of it (ala Madonna - underwear for outerwear). Surely she knows what she is doing....I overhear a lot of comments from men around her about her. (As I now have something in common with priests and monks, that's not really what I need to see in my office right now).

Okay, now directly to you. I would be really, really careful about these FWH comments about what YOU should wear to work. You've not said enough to help me understand the motive there, so I don't even want to speculate. I would just advise extreme caution.

I'm certainly not in the same situation, and being a man this is entirely different. But I've taken to shedding a professional image when I know I'm going to be out alone (like in Chareston for the day, or upstate SC, or even at dinner alone). I wear old, faded jeans and a tee-shirt, old sneakers. There have been other minor skirmishes that I've not mentioned on my thread as they weren't significant, but suffice it to say that I've learned that what I wear is important, too.

Probably not too much help, but my thoughts....

Georgia

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

mimi...
I woulnd't worry about what other people wear. Just wear what makes you feel comfortable about who you are. I do admit that since my WH left...I've been dressing a little more sexy. I sometimes do it on purpose just to get his attention. I don't want him back but I just want him to see how good I look and what he's missing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Georgia Guy......Saw that you mentioned Charleston...That's where I'm from. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Those catalogs coming in the mail are a huge trigger for me as well.

a few weeks before D-Day I was with WW in the Victoria Secret store while she was asking my opinion, I was gathering Xmas gift ideas, little did I know she was merely getting a man's perspective on things she wanted to buy for OM, I found out after D-Day that she had indeed bought several items from there for him. so now everytime one of those catalogs comes I have to hold back the pain, and simply trash it right away.

Mimi...I think Hosea is saying something there you should pay close attention to.

Georgia

GEORGIA:

If you were thinking about me trashing my VS CATALOGS, NO WAY!

GODDESSES have to keep their supplies handy!

I've decided to use the PEPPERBAND approach of getting back on the horse.

I will surprise him with some stuff out of the catalog. I know he likes that type of thing. In fact, I know him much better than she ever will, right? What I choose will be right on target, no guess work involved.

What I won't do is wear the clothes at work!! That separates the wh#$@%%s (AKA: Cleanup women, OW and potential OW) from the GODDESSES! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

mimi1254,

My WW would not be caught dead with ANYTHING from Victoria's Secret. For two reasons 1 She thought they were cheap and trashy and 2 my ex-girlfriend was a VS fan.

Funny, since her A, my old next door neighbor reports a steady stream of VS packages now appearing. Either the quality went up, her tastes went down or she is willing to do anything to keep the OM around.

Okay, now you've got me to LOL.

However, we're not on the same page here. I think it is great that you have VS stuff for hubby. (Surely, that toga must get tiring all the time. Don't forget to remove the laurels before bed - I'm picturing J.L in bed with laurels...not a pretty sight). On the PEPPERBAND approach, no man (me included) would ever argue with that theme.

Now to the real stuff (in my mind anyway):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plus yesterday he was telling me how I should think about DRESSING DOWN on Fridays for work.. That would mean wearing jeans to work.....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is really what I am focusing on. Speaking strictly as a man (which is the only way I know how to speak), it raises my big red flag that FWH is making suggestions on how you should dress for work. (The only exception would be that he is suggesting that you are dressing inappropriately, which isn't the case here).

I guess I don't understand what you are saying. Is he trying to say your are too "stuffy"? I noticed you seem to make a connection to what OW wore to work. In your mind, are you concerned that he's trying to push you into that mold? Is that why this is a "trigger" for you?

That is where I'm trying to steer this. Maybe I'm way off track here, but I (the man, again)would caution that he isn't beginning to lower the R to the physical aspects (visual) like he had with FOW, is he? Am I making any sense at all? I suspect that you may be concerned similarly, hence the nightmare. (BTW - I think it's great that he's there reassuring you). The physical / visual stuff is great within the M (WW has some neat teddies I like).

Maybe this is an area where I should keep my mouth shut, but my red flag went up and I felt as though I should say something. You know we think alike, so I hope I'm conveying my thoughts in a cognitive manner.

Georgia

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but I (the man, again)would caution that he isn't beginning to lower the R to the physical aspects (visual) like he had with FOW, is he? Am I making any sense at all? I suspect that you may be concerned similarly, hence the nightmare. (BTW - I think it's great that he's there reassuring you). The physical / visual stuff is great within the M </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You mignt be on to something here. However, I need for you to explain more about where you are going with this. What is your red flag?

These are some random thoughts of mine....

I will say that I think that's how she first attracted him. PHYSICALLY/VISUALLY, I mean. Their relationship was eventually more emotionally-focused. Remember, his antidepressant.... He has never lost his sexual attraction to me.

The visual stuff has ALWAYS been important to my FWH. I had stopped paying close enough attention to the PHYSICAL ATTRACTION need. BTW, it's his thing to watch me dress to go to work in the morning. He has always liked to do that and continues to do so.

I get anxious that he is having memories of her sometimes and is trying to make me into her when he is thinking about her. I know that she always dresses casually and does not have a professional job. Remember she does not even have a college education. That shouldn't matter but she is totally different from me in that respect.....

She is younger than me but, to be honest, I am definitely more attractive.

However, FWH now always wants to talk about how proud he is of me professionally. It's hard for me to believe that is true but he seems sincere.

I think he continues to struggle alot with what he did.

What are your thoughts???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi wrote:
What I won't do is wear the clothes at work!! That separates the wh#$@%%s (AKA: Cleanup women, OW and potential OW) from the GODDESSES!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Mimi,

Sorry about the VS triggers Hon. Like you wrote, you're taking the right approach by getting back on the horse and remembering you know your H best.

Regarding the VS clothes catalogue, I buy from the catalogue, me - a divorced/single female. I buy their jeans and some of their sweaters, etc.

I wear those clothes to work and I work at a very large, respected and successful semi-conductor company in engineering which is comprised of 99% males where I am a senior engineer overseeing an all male engineering team.

I don't buy/wear anything that shows my lingerie or is see through or extremely tight. I buy and wear what I feel is comfortable for me. What makes me feel good about myself .... and just like many here on MB, I am a BS twice over which, unfortuntely, ended up divorced.

I just wanted to chime in that not everyone that wears VS clothing is a wh#$@%%s (AKA: cleanup women, OW or a potential OW). Hope it was okay to do so.

Love,
Jo

p.s. I will also add that I shop at The Gap, Nordy's and many other places besides VS.

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

RESILIENT:

Sorry. I did not mean to imply that I think those that wear VS clothes to work are like WH...S. I probably need to loosen up a bit on my work clothes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I was referring to those like GG was describing and like the OW in my case who shows her lingerie and wears skintight jeans to work. I should have made myself clearer.

I agree that even a camisole can be worn tastefully to work. In fact, that's very much in style these days.

BTW, VS CLOTHES certainly are not cheap!!

Thanks for chiming in here.

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi,
Maybe I'm dense, but what I took from your original post was that he'd like to see you in some VS jeans! Get some, I bet you'll look awesome!

OK GUYS:

I'm for sure ordering from that catalog tonight.

GEORGIA:

Unfortunately, there are no togas available.

Okay, this will take some thought...stay with me. (I am speaking as ME, applying in general to most men).

I believe that any healthy man can be visually attracted to almost any attractive, sexy woman. The HR manager I mentioned I find VERY physically attractive. Do I have a R with her or care about her other than professionally or even in a Christian sense? Not at all. However, she knows how to dress to get what she wants, which is the base desire of a man. My desire for her at that moment does not express any kind of love or depth of a relationship. (This is NOT what Resilient is countering, and I am in complete agreement with her). Therefore, I (the man) have to guard myself as I KNOW that I can fall into any temptation that anyone here has already fallen into (especially in my monk-like state).

Yes, I can believe that FWH's first attraction to FOW was physical. You also related how she dresses at work. She, like my HR Mgr, knows how to get attention. She cast out her bait until the right fish bit, and she happened to catch FWH. Then, of course, he thought he had met his soulmate as she could play the part so well (Proverbs 17), but only for a brief while. It wears off quickly because she's only the stand-in on the stage of FWH's life, you are the star of the show. So...(e-mail from WW just came...I deleted it)...by the time he looks into the program and realizes your name is there, not FOW's, he's also beginning to realize that she's got physical flaws, too (some fat, some scars, some stretch marks, whatever...she's not perfect like she appeared to be at first).

Now...knowing that even J.L. must have some flaws (even though they may be few), why doesn't FWH tire of you in the same way? It's because the R keeps the physical attraction alive and "steamy". It is that relationship that makes it all work together in the bedroom. It can be ENHANCED by the VS stuff, and that's great. But the key to the bedroom is what happens outside the bedroom. Even if you follow PEPPERBAND's recipe (I don't wish to argue with her, I know she'll win), but I bet both you and PEPPERBAND would tire of that sooner or later without the proper R to accompany it, not matter how noble the intentions.

Now....to the point. I guess I am saying that I would want to watch for signs that the R is staying strong to, therefore, make sure the physical attraction is a result of the R. Even though you may be considered more attractive than FOW, you HAVE to have that R to keep FWH on the very, very short leash that he needs (IMHO). Okay, am I making sense yet? (A joke for you...Did you hear that Playboy has a new magazine just for married men? Pictures of the same woman month after month after month....). If you want FWH to buy the magazine with pictures of the same woman each month, rather than the one that has a different OW every month, it will be because of the R with you.

Whew...now. My red flag is, why is FWH showing interest in what you are wearing to work? I know that some men want to "show off" their wife in a "look what I have" sort of way. Others here may not see any problem in that, however, I think you and I would agree that this could be a danger signal. Do you agree? Also, the question of why he would want you to look similar at work to the way FOW did. Hence, my flag.

I guess that I'm looking way down into what I hear you saying and I'm asking if there is any danger the R is beginning to get "stale" for FWH? Of course, I ask this rhetorically, but I think you know where I'm going with this.

Okay, that is MOST of my thoughts....

Georgia

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

GEORGIA:

I think you have hit onto something but not in the direction that you were thinking.

In fact, I think you have been very helpful.

I think the R is very strong. He is being more open and honest with me than ever. He is telling me exactly what I need to hear. It is this....

I AM MISSING THE NEWNESS AND EXCITEMENT THAT I GOT IN THE A! That was the addictive element of it. BTW, this scares the you know what out of me. How can I compete with NEWNESS AND EXCITEMENT ? Because, now that I think of it, how can I compete with this? I can hardly believe I used the word compete because I so do not want to be on her level. This probably is at the route of the nightmare.


Every weekend she probably greeted him with something new and different from VS or wherever. Their R involved fun and fantasy.

I have the R down pat. The other part probably is getting STALE. He told me this morning that he is looking forward to a trip that we are taking in a couple of weeks. You see, he is feeling the need for escape again. When we first reconciled, we were doing a lot more of the fun and fantasy. Plus, keep in mind, my MLC FWH is concerned about aging and the potency factor....

I think STALENESS is an issue.

The good part is that he moaned with sadness and regret as he held me when I talked about my horror in the nightmare. He left me a loving voicemail and has been checking on me today....

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Okay, I'll take accidentally stumbling onto something as a compliment....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The other part probably is getting STALE. He told me this morning that he is looking forward to a trip that we are taking in a couple of weeks. You see, he is feeling the need for escape again. When we first reconciled, we were doing a lot more of the fun and fantasy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe splitting hairs here, but I don't think of trips together as an escape. I think this is part of what keeps the R alive and healthy (as if I've got any room to talk here...WW & I hardly ever went a complete month without taking a trip somewhere). I don't know if you work in a stressful environment, but if so (especially) I think you need those trips away from all responsibilities (house, kids, phone, etc.). I would suggest that you PLAN spontaneous, unusual things.....(i.e. - early breakfast in a restaurant overlooking the ocean at sunrise, being on a mountain top facing west at sunset). Memories that can NEVER be touched by airhead FOW (or any future clones) - things that can only be made to happen by a smart, resourceful W (aka - Mimi). I suggest things like that, along with VS resources, will take STALE out of your dictionary.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How can I compete with NEWNESS AND EXCITEMENT ? Because, now that I think of it, how can I compete with this? I can hardly believe I used the word compete because I so do not want to be on her level. This probably is at the route of the nightmare.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi...this is EXACTLY the point that I am addressing in my previous post. You compete (and win) by the newness of the R.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Every weekend she probably greeted him... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't allow your imagination to torment you. Don't imagine things you don't know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plus, keep in mind, my MLC FWH is concerned about aging and the potency factor.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I don't remember knowing about this. Man, you're scaring me now!! FWH is only 2 years older than me and he's worried about potency? What are you trying to tell me, Mimi? Am I living out my last days under a vow of celibacy? Yikes !! (Sorry...I couldn't resist.)

Okay, to be serious. I guess that does make sense....the FOW to keep him feeling (and thinking) young. Knock on wood, but so far I've not had the urge to find a young woman to make me feel young. I refer more back to our earlier discussion that young women (apologies to YW lurkers) can be a bit immature and silly. I sometimes want to become a Wal-Mart greeter to shed some work-related anxiety, but that's another issue.


Georgia

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>

Mimi,

You will never compete with the "newness) factor. And if that is what he seeks (which we both know he doesnt), then he will have a rough life because every new relationship will eventually become "old."

That being said, it is the relationship built on commitment, on meeting each other's ENs, on friendship, on a shared future...that will actually be more appealing to him...and you. And I bet, after the mess he went thru...that he has begun to see that now.

But for you, you are still scared. Same here. Scared that you wont be able to give him what she did. But guess what? She gave him that and she is where now?

We BSs have to learn to accept that the WS made a mistake, sought somethign that was not really there...and not REALLY what they wanted. And when they finally get that...we have to learn to understand that they do get that.

In His arms.

I just love you, GEORGIA GUY AND MORTARMAN!!

I don't keep it a secret either. I tell my FWH about you guys.

You are putting into words what he can't tell me. However, he does show me.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR ALL THE HELP THAT YOU GIVE ME.

Yes, I am STILL SCARED!!!

It does get better and better, day by day....

Mimi...

I really, really appreciate that. This time in my life is very difficult...I would LOVE to be able to do with WW the things I am suggesting you do with FWH. I'm 5 months into the empty nest, have 8 weeks of vacation time right now...and no one to spend it with.

I would LOVE to plan to have WW on a mountain top at sunset (like one I was at just 2 days ago), I would likely sneak a blanket along and enjoy the intimacy of the moment. (After all, only 2 years left!). This is what I would like to do...so I'm making those suggestions for you and FWH. This is the way I think...I'm throwing these thoughts your way so you can act on them with FWH if you wish. You know that we share a lot of commonality, so I can assume that you might find some of my ideas appealing with FWH. Where ever you're going in 2 weeks, if it's on the coast, have FWH get up really early, be on the beach at sunrise with a blanket and a cooler. Have a fresh fruit breakfast with you along with your Bible. Read him I Cor. 13 while telling him how much you love him as you feed him b'fast during the sunrise (I remember your comments about the food thing).

Anyway, there is no need in STALE being in your vocabulary. I'll help you with all the ideas you want.

You, too, get talked about. Both boys know about Mimi and frequently ask about you. I think they are really concerned about where Mom and I are heading and they are looking for comfort in what others think and in the outcome of similar experiences. I tell them about you and FWH and they find comfort in that.

If I were to be really, really honest...I'm scared too. It may be all over, and I may have to start again at the age of 48. Not a pleasant thought. That scares me alot.

Georgia

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Georgia Guy ]</small>