Wife has now announced that she feels an open marriage would benefit us at this point. She feels cheated by not having the "usual" number of sexual partners that most people have today. She says that she feels sexually inexperienced and wants to learn more from others. Then she can teach her new tricks to me. She actually has become better in bed since she had her affair. So do I let her have this open marriage? I really want to do what I can to keep her. But I feel inside that this could be a recipe for disaster. She has been better in the last week about communitcating with me and we seem closer.

Ah geez....

If I had gone through what you did I think I would simply state that this is NOT what God nor I intended when you said your vows. Tell her you understand that feeling of having missed out on something but that what makes the physical relationship 'special' and exciting to you is not that she is 'good' or 'experienced' but rather that you love each other and have shared a life and hopefully a future and when you make love it is like you are reuniting a single soul.... say that lovemaking isn't sex to you...it is so much more. Tell her that you are happy that she is eager and enthusiastic but to share something special like that with a stranger would cheapen it.

STIM

Actually not to be unMB but I would tell her the door is open.... do not let it hit her on the A$$ on the way out!!!!

(delete away moderators!!!!!)

no actually it shows an attempt to negotiate...but I would come back and say, honey there are plenty of books on the subject (Promised Forever probably can tell you all of them !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) We can practice together and both learn......

According to Dr. Harley, a WS bargaining is pretty typical.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How Should Affairs End?

I suggest Radical Honesty, "This is not something to which I can enthusiastically agree." This is a much better way to put, "Heck no! What in the world are you thinking?!"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fireman1:
Wife has now announced that she feels an open marriage would benefit us at this point. ///But I feel inside that this could be a recipe for disaster. She has been better in the last week about communitcating with me and we seem closer.

An "open marriage" huh? So, she wants to keep sleeping around, only with your permission now so she assauges her guilt.

You are right, agreeing to this would be a recipe for disaster, but, of course, it is basically the meal that is on the table now anyway.

No, I don't think you should agree with this. It sounds like a fogged WS that wants to keep having her thrills or maybe shop for a new husband without closing her current family options down. Talk to Steve Harley, you are still counseling with him, right?

Seek an attorney or it will be a matter of time before she gives you an STD. Either you wish to be in a committed marriage or not. If you are sharing your wife with other men then you are not in a marriage. I think it is time for you to open your eyes. It seems clear that if you do not accept her demand then she will seek out someone else to have an affair with. I think it is time for you to move out of the fog and stop deluding yourself. Your wife has just told you she plans to have sex with other men. See an attorney and stop the drama because you are destined to be hurt or pick up a disease. Why would anyone accept so little in a marriage?

A open marriage will enable her to see if she can find a permanent replacement for you. Save yourself a lot of grief and file for divorce because that is where it is going to end up anyways.

Fireman, I don't think you should shop for an attorney or file for divorce. The STD comment is very valid. I would be very interested to hear how Harley handles your WS's request for an open marriage...if you could relay his strategy back to the board that would be interesting.

Thanks

Thanks for your advice. She is going to counseling starting this next week. There aren't any A's currently active at this time. But there is a potential in the future. I guess the reason I don't want to give up on her is that for 4 years she put up with me having a porn addicition, PA's and EA's. I also never paid attention to her either. She in a way is wanting to see if I do the same but promises that it won't take nearly as long as I did to snap out of it. But in a way this is very immature. Just because I did it doesn't make it right to do it back. But in a way it gives her credit through all of this that she stayed there for me. I have limits though and won't put up with this forever. She wants me to sign a contract that if I have another girl and she has another guy that we will no matter what return to work on our marriage 6 months from now. She wants me to get fixed and use a condom so I don't get anyone pregnantl. When I asked what if I fall in love with someone else she stated "Then you will have to break her heart because you are mine" You are only on temporary loan. So all of this shows me that she wants this relationship in 6 months but not now. She says she only wants bed buddies. I hope the counseling will get to her before another EA or PA starts. For now I am hanging in here. Eyes and ears open and cautious.

Hmmmm, she feels cheated?? My WW was my first partner, and except for my one night stand, my only. She on the other hand can count her sexual partners on (count them folks) 4 hands <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . Does that mean I should go hit the girls dorm, spray on some Calvin Klien and go to town?? Takola had the right idea "Heck no, what the f*** are you thinking???!!!".

Bryanp, tommaz:

Aw $h!t, you guys! Black dang it, already!

Sure, this is a stupid si2ation for fireman 2 find himself in. But the M is far from unsalvageable!!! This is also not the first time I've heard a WS trying 2 negotiate an "open M" rather than work on the core problems.

I think fireman will do the right things, here. Getting his W in2 Cing is the first step. Maybe even seeing a sex therapist would be helpful. But having an open M? A very s2pid idea - because it won't alleviate their troubles, it will compound them.

Bottom line, I think fireman should help her, not just toss her.

Fireman.

It's been said that when a WS asks the BS to make the M into an 'open' M it's because the WS is already engaging in an A and wants to aleviate any fallout that a discovered A normally brings forth. I would suggest that you investigate if this is the case.

Don't let her use the fact that you were stupid and had your PA's and EA's in the past, as justification for her to be stupid as well. You might want to tell her that your stupidity nearly cost you your M and your family, and that if she repeats your mistakes and plays Russian roulette, that the results may not turn out to be the same.

I remember you mentioned in your first thread that when you had your A, she told all your friends and family about it in order for you to stop it. You might want to consider doing the same because it just might be enough for her to think how friends and family will view her for engaging in such destructive behavior.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fireman1:
She wants me to sign a contract that if I have another girl and she has another guy that we will no matter what return to work on our marriage 6 months from now.

Gee, how romantic. Sort of anti-marital vows. How much did the first set of promises mean to her?

One way or the other, you need to explain to her that what she is proposing is outside your morality and you have no interest in swapping partners. You mention her starting counseling....is it with Harley? How is that going?

Hi Fireman1! Sorry to hear your wife wants this 'arrangement'. Guess you could ask her just one question - make it seem very real and see just how SHE reacts...
Ask her: "You know, babe, I've been thinking of the same thing. I've got this really hot friend who wants to show me some new moves that will blow your mind. She is really into this 'open marriage' concept and it's NOW very convenient that you are here asking me the same thing... So, what do you think - would you have any problems with me showing you some new and groovy things she's going to teach me???"
Perhaps this might not be the best way to handle this, but I can bet you one thing for sure: IT DEFINITELY WILL WAKE HER UP - things like that make you think! You just might be surprised how 'suddenly' she backpedals on her 'open marriage' views - typical WSs want to run around on you, but if the shoe's on the other foot - NO! You better not run around on ME! Perhaps this is not the most tactful way to handle this, but it will bring this out into the open, hopefully get her to thinking and bring you both into the Marriage Counselor's Office to work on the Love you once had and can re-kindle once more. Please don't give up - there is hope!
May God bless you both.
Harold

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by DJ T-Bird:
<strong>Hi Fireman1! Sorry to hear your wife wants this 'arrangement'. Guess you could ask her just one question - make it seem very real and see just how SHE reacts...
Ask her: "You know, babe, I've been thinking of the same thing. I've got this really hot friend who wants to show me some new moves that will blow your mind. She is really into this 'open marriage' concept and it's NOW very convenient that you are here asking me the same thing... So, what do you think - would you have any problems with me showing you some new and groovy things she's going to teach me???"
Perhaps this might not be the best way to handle this, but I can bet you one thing for sure: IT DEFINITELY WILL WAKE HER UP - things like that make you think! You just might be surprised how 'suddenly' she backpedals on her 'open marriage' views - typical WSs want to run around on you, but if the shoe's on the other foot - NO! You better not run around on ME! Perhaps this is not the most tactful way to handle this, but it will bring this out into the open, hopefully get her to thinking and bring you both into the Marriage Counselor's Office to work on the Love you once had and can re-kindle once more. Please don't give up - there is hope!
May God bless you both.
Harold</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes! Yes!

I too mentioned this risky tactic in the past and I totally agree that many WS's like to dish it but they can not take it. She herself, who fell in love with OM, said that if fireman1 fell in love with one of his potential lovers, that he should just 'break her heart because you are on loan and you are mine'.

She also wants you to sign a contract that states that that if you or her find a lover,that both of you will return six months later to work on the M. If you live in a State where adultery is grounds for divorce and possibly custody as well, then said contract could possibly be used against you if and when a divorce where to occur. DON'T SIGN ANYTHING she offers you because presently she is not a trustworthy person.

Fireman1, your WW told you she wishes you get fixed and use a condom to not get any female pregnant. If she is so concerned about an OC from a potential A, then why doesn't SHE GET FIXED so as not to bring an OC from her own A's? What guarantee can she offer that she wouldn't get pregnant with an OM's C? Let her know that the only way you'll get fixed will be only AFTER SHE GETS FIXED and not before.

But whether one or both of you get sterilized, an open M is still a bad, bad, bad period and you will regret it dearly if you give in to her loony requests for it.

<small>[ September 21, 2002, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

She is going to start seeing a female counselor here locally next week. She is more comfortable with a female counselor. We will continue to work with Steve in the future as well. She is wanting me to go out there and play as well. She feels it will help me in the future from ever having an A again. Yes her entire family is aware of what is going on. They are praying for this family. She has shut most of her friends out because she knows what they are going to tell her about what she is doing. She shared with me last night that the A made her feel beautiful. That she loves the environment and love I provide but when she is with her lover she feels beautifal. This brings out a self esteem issue.

fireman1

You've got to establish boundaries on what is acceptable and unacceptable in your M and stick to those boundaries no matter what. If you want the same lustful lifestyle that she wants, then stop wasting your time and ours by asking what you already know will be our answers.

There was another poster just recently that was asking everybody on this board to help her because she was very tempted to go spend the weekend with her HS sweetheart. Everybody told her not to go because she would regret it afterwards, and what did she do? she went ahead anyway and had a weekend PA. She did confess to her H, who naturally was crushed by her confession, and she came back to this board telling us how horrible she felt for doing what she now considered a terrible mistake on her part. She now has to deal with an uphill fight to save her marriage, a fight that could have been totally avoided if she had heed our collective advice. Are you going to follow in her footsteps as well?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fireman1:
She is going to start seeing a female counselor here locally next week. She is more comfortable with a female counselor. We will continue to work with Steve in the future as well.

Are you aware that steve's sister Jennifer also is available for phone counseling, and is very highly regarded? I would be very cautious about "mixing philosophies" in counseling. As someone once said here, most marriage counselors are really divorce counselors.

She is wanting me to go out there and play as well. She feels it will help me in the future from ever having an A again.

That's one for the foggy Hall of Fame. Sort of like how a good drinking habit stops yopu from becoming an alcoholic.

She shared with me last night that the A made her feel beautiful. That she loves the environment and love I provide but when she is with her lover she feels beautifal. This brings out a self esteem issue.

Well, I'd say it alerts you to at least one EN -- admiration. SF was already mentioned.

FM
Thanks for the update – I think it is a good sign that you are able to continue to discuss this & seek or be open to other’s insights.

I also think that it is good that your W is being open with you about her thoughts. I would caution you to try & not be judgmental with your discussions back to her – I have learned that I was inadvertently doing this & this of course can cause your W to turn these thoughts inward & that could be even more dangerous.

I assume you realize that her idea is not a good one in terms of resolving marital conflicts or to create the best recovery. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I agree that her statements about this would typically indicate that she is in fact involved or certainly has someone in mind. To learn more about her intentions, it might be interesting to learn more about how she proposes for her to meet these other guys and to get this additional experience? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I believe you know that I have an opinion that I feel I have voiced a lot in the past. That is, that she has a very compulsive and seeming very large drive if you will, towards the fulfillment of these feeling for “lust.” <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> This seems to me has very little to do with developing strategies for enhancing a personal, meaningful, loving marital relationship.
I do not want to seem judgmental here, but I believe she could qualify as having a disorder of sorts or I’ll go ahead and say it, an “addiction for Lust.” This creates a different dynamic in you & her relationship, which I believe creates a big conflict with normal marital recovery strategies – the addictions has such a powerful drive, which, IMHO, until it is brought under control, this other stuff is a extremely difficult if not impossible to create much of an impact.
Now here is the rub – you did not "create" this problem she has, you cannot "control" it & you cannot "cure" it. This is her demon so to speak – she has to take "ownership" of this problem before she can seek to control it, herself. You cannot "force" her into recovery for this affliction – it is like a disease – she is a "sick" person, she is not a "bad" person.
There is actually a lot of information about this kind of thing – there are also support groups for family members and “S’s” of people with this kind of compulsion. Just like Alonon for family members of Alcoholics –

I have additional information about this SA & S-anon stuff if you are interested. bhurrican@yahoo.com

Here is an example of another person's story which puts a focus on this issue of SA and the co-dependent. One aspect is that when the condition continues unchecked the addicted person finds that they need more thrills or dangers to get the "charges" – Like most addictions, it becomes “progressive!” <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Here is someone elses story. Perhaps it will help to offer perspective to your own situtaion? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> -- Quote from an anonymous person - source -- a woman states:
“My counselors see it as an addiction, but many others keep asking me, "why are you diagnosing him as a sex addict, only he can do that." I believe that doing porn until 4-5a.m. 5 days a week and every time I leave the house, and using the web cam to have cyber sex with others, and looking for singles in our area is an ADDICTION!!!!!!!!!!!!”
“… I keep thinking if only I was thinner, or prettier, or more sexual, etc..........”
“…I hurt so bad. This is my 2nd marriage. My former H was sexually abusive. Went through all this with him, until I submitted and became what I thought he wanted me to be. I started dancing at a club, he brought men and women home. As the years progressed I grew deeper and deeper into my own addictions. “

We sometimes have an amazing capacity to not recognize the reality of own situation – it may seem too bizarre or too scary – this can create a problem referred to as “denial.”

Take want you want & leave the rest ...

Prayers are with you!
Bob

<small>[ September 21, 2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

Some days she seems to come out of the fog just a little and then she gets back into it. We went out on a date last night and she was sharing with me how much she missed the OM. How he was just the best thing to ever happen to her in bed. She did say though that she has a hard time sharing that stuff with me. But since I told her to share everything with me she does. She is becoming more and more depressed. How long does this depression last for. She has had two 1 minute phone calls from him in last three weeks. She is very hurt that he dropped her. An interesting story that I didn't share with you folks happend last week. I came home early before lunch and W was getting ready to go out. She confessed that she thought he was going to be in the area of the mall during lunch. So she was going to try to find him. I said ok. I was going to lunch with two friends. I went into the restraunt and the OM was sitting two tables away with people from his training class. He hasn't ever met me. I knew it was him though. I got up walked past him to the rest room. On the way bay he got a glimpse of my uniform displaying my occupation and name. He almost choked. I went and sat back down. He spent the next 45 minutes staring me down. But I just sat there. The reason I didn't pound him is that I was in a public place in uniform. He left 45 minutes later and went into the mall. I thought I would see my W and him get together but he got in a van and left. Moral of the story. He never called my W stating that he had only 20 mins for lunch. When in fact he took an hour for lunch. THis only showed me that he is playing a game. It really hurt my W too. Still hanging in here hoping my W will get over him and decide I am worth coming back too.