</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SleeplessInSF:
<strong> I didn't REALLY mean manipulate KB. Maybe a gentle nudge like I did. Tell her he wants to be a better husband and buld a better marriage or make a weekend of it with other fun things (without the kids). That kind of manipulate. I wouldn't just drop it at her feet and say if you want to go let's go.

I will say I'm too new to this stuff to put to much into my opinions.

How about if he did this. Tell her he would like them to go, add some fun stuff and then tell her it's totally up to her if she wants to go. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Sleepless, but right now I'm walking on Eggshells. I don't want her to perceive any Manipulation at all. I've been doing it for 28 years, so it's time for me to STOP.

Thanks for your input. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

TA:

I quit posting and reading the boards a couple of months back but I recently started reading the Boards a little. I took notice of your lack of progress in your case.

The reason you are not making any progress is because you never disrupted the affair. She is getting the best of you and the best of her BF right now. Her BF is winning every inning and you are the daily loser. Her heart is with him at the expense of her feelings for you.

Spend as much as it takes to tap your phones at home, pay off her co-workers, and do whatever it takes to find out who her BF is. Hopefully he is married and you can call his wife immediately. Expose your wife to her co-workers, her bosses, personnel and anyone who will listen. Make her affair to become painful to her. Embarrass her and humiliate her. You need to treat this like a war and you are not doing that. Plant a detective inside her workplace if you can. She will hate you but these steps can save your dead marriage.

Quit treating this like it may not be an affair. You and I know she is in deep and over her head and madly in love. She probably have had sex too. Knowing this, take redical steps as I have described.

Tell your kids, her parents, her best friends, your priest, and anyone who will listen. You need to bring REALITY to the FANTASY affair. Her BF will start showing another side of him that she hasn't seen and the beginning of the end of the affair will begin. When this hapens, you will be compared to on a more equal footing with MR. Perfect. Today you are sucking hind tit. Do not continue to enable her to have the best of both worlds. You have nothing to lose according to your posts because she is mentally and physically gone from you. Make the affair a painful experience yet at the same time, be cordial. Sabatage the affair anyway you can and tell her you are looking to others to help save the marriage.

I did exactly this and it worked for me. The undoing of an affair is a very tough and tedious step by step plan. My one year anniversary is in two days since DD and 9 months since NC. We are basically back to a normal life yet we both feel the need to talk about the "why".

My FWW has lost her inner confidence as a result of her betrayal to the family and me.

One more time, Disrupt the affair and make it a painful experience for all involved and affected by the affair. She must see the pain and feel the pain she is bringing on everyone. Nothing you will do in the mean time will matter.

Good Luck

TooSoon

<small>[ January 12, 2005, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: TooSoonToBeComfortable ]</small>

Now that you have pissed me off and ruined my night I am going to take your advice.

I am getting nowhere in the last 3 months and I've done a very good Plan A. You would think I would see something happen.

I think I have been in denial because I didn't want to believe she was having an affair. She is showing every friggin action that a WS shows, I mean everything.

I am putting my voice recorder back in her car this morning. Starting next week and for at least 2-3 weeks I am going to have her trailed by a private detective.

The first part of Plan A is to expose the affair, there is no way I can succeed if she really is in an affair. I'm wasting my time and energy, nevermind my emotions. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

This is NOT a "need to know" just to satisfy my curiosity, it is part of Plan A that I must follow.

Thanks for pissing me off, I needed to come to my senses.

Andrew

My recovery did not or could not even begin until i knew who, when, where, and why but most importantly until she quit her job to prevent any contact from happening.

I would guess the last 3 months for you was to settle yourself down and to allow her to see a new side of you. When the identity of the OM is exposed to you and when you expose the affair to others so they can help you, the shiit will hit the fan big time. The war will begin and you will see the devil himself come from your wife's lips. This pressure from everyone and this new time period brings the needed reality to your wife causing her grief, pressure, pain, embarrassment, and humiliation.

The OM's will be forced to show the real him and he will get serious pressure from his family and the affair now has a newfound price tag on it. This disruption due to exposure tests the strength of their relationship, and if it is not secure, it begins to crumble quickly. The affair was built on lies and deciet from the beginning so it will not likely hold together.

Once again, recovery will likely not begin until NC is implemented by her. At some time down the road, she will need to quit her job to get away from him. Save this information for later. The undoing of the affair is a step by step lengthy process.

Regarding a previous post, I have heard that 35% of marriages are saved post DD, not 6% as posted previously. I may look this up and post it later.

TooSoon

some stats posted here:

http://www.dearpeggy.com/results.html

I'm meeting wiht 2 seperate investigators Friday.

They want a ton of info on my wife, I'm a little leary about giving such privte info. They want me to monitor her cellphone calls and give them all the numbers. They can even track license plates, unlisted phone numbers, etc...

They want a $1,500 retainer to start. The rates vary between $65- $100 an hour, more expensive than I thought. Their business for cheating spouses is up over 200% in 2 years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Wife starts being monitored Monday. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope they find nothing. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Andrew

TA:

I hired companies to get as much info as I needed. I knew what college the OM went to, where he lived, his parents and where they lived, his cell phone number, his make of car and license plate, his address, insurance information on their family, when he got married and when he got divorced, and enough information to know who I was dealing with so I could begin exposure. My first exposure was to tell my FWW what I knew and it shocked her. She was at the stage where she would only tell me what she thought she was caught on. So it means, knowledge is power. I paid money out for this information but it worked as I hoped.

Do not be a nice guy and lose your marriage because of lack of action. Be a nice guy, take agressive action, embarrass and humiliate your wife through others, and tell her you did it to help break her fog-like state she is in. Believe it or not, she will thank you later for not giving up on her. But before that happens, you must walk through the fires of hell before you will see the light.

I hope this helps.

toosoon

TA, have you consulted SH about the PI thing?

It seems to me irreversable damage will be caused to your M if you are wrong and your wife finds out about the PI.

JMO.

Excellent point, Sleepless! TA, consulting SH about this if you are able makes a lot more sense then triggering off of a post here. As I recall, SH told you several times NOT to spy, he must have had his reasons. On that note, could I ask you what he said when he said you had to provide a "safety zone"? Can you recall specifically how he worded it to you? KB

I'll be very honest with you Sleepless.

I'm scared as Hell about this. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

SH told me last month NOT to Spy on her, but I'm not sure why.

What if she is involved in an affair, I'm doing all this Plan A stuff for nothing. Dr H said the first part of Plan A is exposure. She initially told me she had feelings for OM and wanted to have sex with him but he did not know her true feelings. My wife said he likes her, she likes him, and she wanted to have Sex with him ASAP. She wanted me out of the house first before she has Sex with him because she felt guilty if I was still at home, and then when I refused to leave ASAP she became Furious. She said he is not going to ask her on a date because he thinks she is happily married with 2 children at home. She said "if he knew I was divorced at I no longer wore my wedding rings then I know he would date me and we could have sex." She had the nerve to say that to my **** face, I was in total shock. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Then about a month ago she called me on her cellphone crying her *** eyes out. She said "I'm so sorry for all the mean things I've said to you in the last 3 months, I'm not sure why I said them." Then she followed up with "How can you ever forgive me for what I've done to you?"

I'd like to know what the **** she did to me? You mean having thoughts about having sex with OM, yes it's bad but not unforgiveable. Why does she feel so guilty?

I think I've been in DENIAL all along and didn't want to believe what may be true.

On D-Day around 9/15/04 she told me she wanted to commit Suicide because she felt "TRAPPED." She told me to go the Bank the next day and get her $100,000 in Cash and she would take her car and head out West (I'm East Coast). She told me I could keep everything, the house, 6 cars, cash, stock, 401(k), everything. She also told me I could keep both our children who she adores. She said maybe in 1 or 2 years she would return. WTF kind of talk is that?

She also accused me that I may "kill her and physically hurt our children, run off with all our money and leave her penniless, etc..." all *** BS. I never lifted my hand to her in 28 years, nor have I ever hit my children. Is this BS FOG talk, it sounds insane to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

How will I know if Plan A is working?

I feel like a needle in a haystack if she is with this OM.

I don't know what the hell to do. SH thinks she is NOT in a true EA (he spoke to her) but that doesn't guarantee me anything. Who knows what the hell she said to him? I asked SH what she said and he said he couldn't reveal their conversation. All he said was "you have your work cut out for you."

Any thoughts?

Andrew

<small>[ January 13, 2005, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TA:
<strong> SH told me last month NOT to Spy on her, but I'm not sure why. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TA, you won't get anywhere not trusting him. If your wife told him something that he can;t share with you then you should go with his advice IMO.

Let me set up a scenario for you:

Your W comes to you and tells you she has feelings for another man. Not very honorable but HONEST. Then she tells you she wants out of your M because she is not happy, again not very honorable but HONEST. Then through all her honesty and pain in telling you, you call a PI because you think she may be lying. Imagine how your wife will feel when she finds out after striving to do the right thing and be honest with you and leave the M BEFORE she pursues things with OM. If she is going to have the OM than atleast she has doing it in the more respectable manner.

I totally understand where you are coming from and in your position would be tempted to do the same thing. But if I was in her shoes, teetering on the edge like she is and then had my H basically called me a liar (by hiring the PI) when i had been so honest - I would be done with the M.

I'm not saying your W isn't having an A. I'm just saying the risk is too high. Imagine the consequences if she's not.

Here is something to think about. TA's WW has told him the marriage is over in June, he sleeps in a separate room, no sex, no communication, WW stated she wants to have sex with the OM, and she is completely disconnected to TA.

She is in love with the OM and have fallen out of love with TA. WS's lie to the hilt at this stage and she will not tell TA who the guy is.

TA can accept his fate which she has layed out for him or he can take a pro-active approach to learn about the affair and then he has a chance to disrupt the affair giving himself maybe one real chance to save his family.

MY FWW was looking at apartments and even put down a deposit on one. What did I have to lose but to try anything. If I hadn't disrupted the affair, she would have moved out months ago and would be screwing her BF today. You try and stop the affair before it reaches the point of no return and that is what I did and it worked.

I read three books on affairs and snooping for information by computer spyware, hiring investigators, bugging your phone, checking phone records, etc are all part of learning what you are up against. Once you know what you are fighting, you then have a chance to break the affair. The WS will not reconnect with their spouse until they disconnect from their lover. Expsoure tests the real strength of the lover's relationship. Since they are built on fantasy and lies, they can crumble allowing the spouse another chance to keep the marriage intact. It is just the way it is. Dr. Harley says it plain and clear in all of his writings. It is absolutely necessary to find out what they are lying to you about.

I know what worked for me and thank God, I took a pro-active approach to disrupt, by exposure, or my family was gone as I knew it for 20 years.

TooSoon

I take notes on every meeting with SH.

Get her to Seminar and Plan A, that’s it for now. Provide a Safety Zone so she opens up.

Deeper understanding

“The cause of Infidelity is the cause to protect our greatest weaknesses.”

Dxxxx is NOT in Love with me, the Solution is for her To be in Love with me.

Plan a is about “Demonstrating Change.”

Engage with Dxxxx whenever possible. Get away with anything I can that she will
appreciate. Show her I care.

Gathering Info Theory (Seminar)

Wouldn’t it be great if we were in Love?

Wouldn’t it be great if the parents of our children were in Love? That’s our problem and
we need to figure it out.

If there is a Solution shouldn’t we Investigate it? (Seminar)

Wouldn’t it be nice to have a Great Marriage and a Great Family?

Explore a Theory or Investigate that they claim they can solve problems to our marriage
with a Money back guarantee.

I wanted to add one thought I had after posting.
If you do this TA your M is over either way.

Either the PI finds out about your wifes A - to which I believe you have said would end your M.

or you find out she is NOT having an A - IMO she wouldn't forgive you teetering on the edge like she is.

What do you think?

What if she is involved in an affair, I'm doing all this Plan A stuff for nothing.

HUH???? I thought you wanted to recover your marriage?

Let's bear in mind that your DD conversation started with her asking you for a divorce. The OM stuff at this point sounds like it came up as an afterthought, something made up to deflect you from dissuading her. SHE probably thought it would be a deal breaker. She may feel guilty for putting you through the mill if there really is no OM. This makes more sense to me considering that you always know her whereabouts.

Would I be wrong in saying that she has the feeling that she never "wins" with you? I am basing this on your statements that you always get your way and hers that she has no say in normal day to day decisions. This speaks volumes as to the dynamics in your marriage, and is a possible reason why she wants to leave you.

Call SH and ask him his reasoning as to why he doesn't advice YOU not to spy. Did you see my question about the "safety zone"? KB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TooSoonToBeComfortable:
<strong> TA can accept his fate which she has layed out for him or he can take a pro-active approach to learn about the affair and then he has a chance to disrupt the affair giving himself maybe one real chance to save his family. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMO his "pro-active" approach should be to stay in PLAN A. A PI doesn't fit into plan A.


TA, call SH please. he'll fit you in quick if your having a urgent problem.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TooSoonToBeComfortable:
<strong> Here is something to think about. TA's WW has told him the marriage is over in June, he sleeps in a separate room, no sex, no communication, WW stated she wants to have sex with the OM, and she is completely disconnected to TA.

She is in love with the OM and have fallen out of love with TA. WS's lie to the hilt at this stage and she will not tell TA who the guy is.

TA can accept his fate which she has layed out for him or he can take a pro-active approach to learn about the affair and then he has a chance to disrupt the affair giving himself maybe one real chance to save his family.

MY FWW was looking at apartments and even put down a deposit on one. What did I have to lose but to try anything. If I hadn't disrupted the affair, she would have moved out months ago and would be screwing her BF today. You try and stop the affair before it reaches the point of no return and that is what I did and it worked.

I read three books on affairs and snooping for information by computer spyware, hiring investigators, bugging your phone, checking phone records, etc are all part of learning what you are up against. Once you know what you are fighting, you then have a chance to break the affair. The WS will not reconnect with their spouse until they disconnect from their lover. Expsoure tests the real strength of the lover's relationship. Since they are built on fantasy and lies, they can crumble allowing the spouse another chance to keep the marriage intact. It is just the way it is. Dr. Harley says it plain and clear in all of his writings. It is absolutely necessary to find out what they are lying to you about.

I know what worked for me and thank God, I took a pro-active approach to disrupt, by exposure, or my family was gone as I knew it for 20 years.

TooSoon </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife had brochures of homes she was looking at 2 months before she told me. I asked her why she had these brochures of homes that were priced 1/3 below our home and she said she just wanted an idea how much homes were going for. Maybe we would downsize when the kids leave school in 8 years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

We haven't had sex since July, she won't let me touch her and 2 weeks ago she said "I don't want any more rubdowns from you and don't touch me again. The she said "I hope I don't regret this."

I feel I am losing her and I must take action.

I think I'll call SH in the morning.

I know I'll be kicking myself in the [censored] if in 4-6 months she has been with OM all along and I did nothing to expose the affair.

"I know I'll be kicking myself in the [censored] if in 4-6 months she has been with OM all along and I did nothing to expose the affair."
-------------------------------------------------

I can't debate this one. you are correct for sure. Call SH and tell him how you are feeling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by knewbetter:
<strong> What if she is involved in an affair, I'm doing all this Plan A stuff for nothing.

She may feel guilty for putting you through the mill if there really is no OM. This makes more sense to me considering that you always know her whereabouts.

Would I be wrong in saying that she has the feeling that she never "wins" with you?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You would be correct. Maybe she did use this OM as an excuse thinking it would be a dealbreaker.

She became furious when I didn't leave our home within 5 minutes. She said "what the hell is wrong with you, any man would have walked out on me, why the Hell are you still here?"

BTW, the Honorable thing would to have told me years ago there were problems in the marriage. She never once sought MC, never told me there was a problem, nothing, zilch, nada,... damn Confilct Avoiders. Dr H said my wife should be Nuturing our marriage not destroying it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Then she said "we can still be friends." I said friends, are you out of your mind. A true friend would never have done this to me. I wouldn't do what you did to me to my worst enemy. Were not friends today so why would I want to be friends with you in the future.

BTW, the Honorable thing would to have told me years ago there were problems in the marriage. She never once sought MC, never told me there was a problem, nothing, zilch, nada,... damn Confilct Avoiders.

Well, maybe she couldn't. Would you have even "heard" her if she did? If she has had to pacify, placate, and comply to keep the peace at home, then yes she's going to be a Conflict Avoider, it comes with the territory.

Then she said "we can still be friends."

This could be viewed as a placating statement.

Dr H said my wife should be Nuturing our marriage not destroying it.

Was this before or after he spoke to her? It makes a BIG difference. Your violent outbursts on this board in the past must be considered an indicator of your (past?) behavior at home unfortunately so if you want to recover the marriage (affair or not) this must be addressed in IC or with SH, even though MB is not designed to work if there is emotional or physical abuse.

To give you some credit TA, I'm not entirely sure you would recognise what emotionally abusive behavior is. There are a number of checklists that are designed to help the victim understand what it is and isn't but you might want to take a look at it to be certain that you are not unwittingly doing this. Starfish has a number of great links on this page but the entire thread is well worth reading. KB