Long story short.

I had a 30 minute conversation with my wife just now. She told me everything about the mistakes I've made in the past.

She said she will give me somewhat of a chance for the rest of the year. She needs to see a lot of change in me or goodbye. She said we have not been a real couple for years and she wants to be in love again. She said it's not fair to me (TA) either to be with someone who doesn't love me.

I reminded her about the conversation she had with SH about "How people fall in Love,and how people fall out of Love." I told her that Steve said if I make enough deposits into her Love Bank that she can't help but to start having feelings for me again. She said she will complete the ENQ for me this weekend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am not going to spy on her.

I finally know where I stand.

I did not mention OM, maybe she will confide in me later.

Thanks everyone.

9-1-1 Infidelity Emergency Kit

http://www.surviving-infidelity-kit.com/

Good news TA, maybe the relationship is a bit on the rocks right now.

That is great news TA! Sounds like there is no fog meaning the A is unlikely. Now plan A your a** off.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SleeplessInSF:
<strong> That is great news TA! Sounds like there is no fog meaning the A is unlikely. Now plan A your a** off.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks everyone, I'm sure you probably know how I feel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm more scared than ever.

Can someone give me a clue or some type of plan that I need to follow for the next month or so. A quick start, etc...

I've been reading this board for months and now I feel like a newbie. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I told her I wanted to come back to our bed tonight, she said maybe, we'll see.

I know the next 6-9 months will be the most important time of my life.

Any help will be greatly appreciated, I thought this day would never come.

She has a LOT of resentment towards me, I have to overcome this fast.

Andrew

<small>[ January 13, 2005, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: TA ]</small>

Sleepless:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That is great news TA! Sounds like there is no fog meaning the A is unlikely. Now plan A your a** off.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry but I have become very confused. TA has been posting about a man his wife was openly talking about and who she wanted to have sex with for the last 3 months and she now says she is receptive to working on her marriage. Your immediate assumption is there was never an affair at all.

I am completely puzzled. I have read TA's posts since he came on MB and I don't think I am niave. I would suggest that there is another man in the wings, probably married who is putting the stop on the affair. If this is the case, TA has a chance to save his marriage, without resorting to investigators or additional exposure.

Good for him but I don't think I would assume there was not another man. I will make a prediction. TA will be the best Husband any wife would ever want yet he will post within two weeks that his wife is acting aloof and distant with him again. That will tell me the other party to the affair may be struggling breaking off the relationship which will confuse TA's WW which will be passed on to TA causing him more uncertainty as I described.

We will see.

toosoon

TooSoon, is it inconceivable to you that your story is not HIS? If you've followed the story then you will remember the TA's wife has no time away from home except for work and spends all her spare time with TA and the children at home. There is nothing in her behavior to indicate an affair as the ONLY possible reason for her desiring a divorce. He KNOWS where she is at all times. Distance happens for a lot of reasons, some possiblities of which are in my previous post.

TA KNOWS that he has offended his wife greatly and he is trying to make an effort to change that. Why so negative? If Steve Harley told TA not to spy then there is a reason. This is the Harleys site and TA is wisely getting advice from the horse's mouth. Why are you undermining SH's advice? Let's support TA as he works at understanding how to be a better husband and human being shall we? KB

TA, glad for you bud,! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Would like your thoughts on my previous post if you have time.

Knew:

There is a great chance that TA's wife is involved with an EA only. Work place EA are as common as can be. Hopefully for his sake, it has been taken to the sex level.

To say that there is NO affair throws out the entire MB years of study Dr. Harley has come to know like the back of his hand. You all want to blame his wife's reaction on his behavior, yet she accepted it for the entire length of thier marriage. It usually takes another party (the om or ow) to come in and look like the perfect match for these traits to become totally offensive.

On the other hand, I am not a doctor who has studied 40,000 cases over thrity years like Dr. Harley. Steve Harley is Dr. Harley's son, and yes he is trained and schooled, but he does not have the same years of experience as his father.

For someone to deny TA's ww's words expressing her desire to live away from TA, have sex with another man, expressed words of falling out of love with her husband, quit having sex with her husband, come completely disconnected at the same time she talks of another man, and then a few of us on the BB say, "there was never ever an affair". It contradicts everything Dr. Harley has written on this Board and in his books.

Am I supposed to believe his 30 years of study or simply your opinion and assessment that the affair was nothing more than a figment of his imagination and a concocted character by a cunning wife to shape up her husband.

I know what I lived through and I have read about hundreds of others BS's and WS's on these boards with similar situations as mine on these boards, yet I am supposed to randomly believe that none of this even happened to TA and his wife. If that is the case, TA was played a fool by a very sick woman.

Either way, TA has had the wakeup call of his life. I predict this little proclaimed circus act is not an act. I predict that his WW will have difficulty during her withdrawal time from her lover's EA or PA. I think TA has been humbled over the last 90 days and I think he will lay the cards on the table.

I will read his updates and see wow it goes. Recovery is a true roller coaster ride. If you are correct, there will be no roller coaster ride and no withdrawal. She proved her point and now it is over and there life will resume to normalcy.

I am only expressing my thoughts and opinions based on my reading and my experiences. Everyone's case is different.

TooSoon

TooSoon, I appreciate your thoughtful reply. Some thoughts on a few of your points:

To say that there is NO affair throws out the entire MB years of study Dr. Harley has come to know like the back of his hand. You all want to blame his wife's reaction on his behavior, yet she accepted it for the entire length of thier marriage. It usually takes another party (the om or ow) to come in and look like the perfect match for these traits to become totally offensive.

She may have accepted it but she has made it clear she doesn't want to continue. This can be attributed to midlife assessment (Mrs. TA is 46)or the influence of friends, reading material, any number of things. TA's poor first impression here on MB is also a factor. Personalities online are very close to those offline and as someone who wanted his way it did not sit well with him when he didn't get it.

He behaved offensively here so it follows that this is a tactic that has worked for him elsewhere. (but he's working on it, good job TA) He also needs to get a handle on controlling and badgering behavior according to his IC. Mrs. TA has taken the brunt of all this so I don't think an OM was a necessary component for her to wake up and smell the coffee.

On the other hand, I am not a doctor who has studied 40,000 cases over thrity years like Dr. Harley. Steve Harley is Dr. Harley's son, and yes he is trained and schooled, but he does not have the same years of experience as his father.

If TA is speaking with Steve Harley then obviously SH has way more information re TA than we do. SH told TA not to spy so I don't see the validity of telling him to do so. We simply don't have enough information whereas SH does.

For someone to deny TA's ww's words expressing her desire to live away from TA, have sex with another man, expressed words of falling out of love with her husband, quit having sex with her husband, come completely disconnected at the same time she talks of another man, and then a few of us on the BB say, "there was never ever an affair". It contradicts everything Dr. Harley has written on this Board and in his books.

Actually it doesn't if there never was one. It would be the best case scenario in my opinion partially because individual issues and related marital problems are sometimes masked by the obvious drama of an affair. In other words the WS is such an "obvious bad guy" that unless the BS does the personal work necesary to overcome their own issues, the cycle begins all over again in their new relationship.

Am I supposed to believe his 30 years of study or simply your opinion and assessment that the affair was nothing more than a figment of his imagination and a concocted character by a cunning wife to shape up her husband.

It is doubtful that Mrs. TA concocted something to shape up her husband. She didn't want him to shape up, she wanted him GONE. If she was truly cunning she could have done a WAY better job of supporting her story, trust me.

We'll see how things go. MB is a wonderful restorative for troubled marriages but also an incredible personal growth opportunity. We're rooting for TA and his wife to work things out, let's support him in the things he is advised to do by Steve Harley. KB

Knew:

There is no denying TA was an absolute egotistical jerk when he began on these boards. I think he is a different guy today.

His WW may have had an exit affair and was simply planning her exit. I thought mine was having a midlife crisis but she openly admitted it to be an exit affair. It didn't matter if she got caught since it was her tool to move on, although she kept is a secret.

I lucked out and was given a chance to change myself for the better. She admits her mistakes were very damaging and regrets her offbase thinking today. The fog is brutal and very real to the WS.

We will see how things unfold for TA. Nothing surprises me anymore.

Toosoon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She proved her point and now it is over and there life will resume to normalcy.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that's a misleading statement.

TA has stated repeatedly that his wife "checked" out of the marriage years ago.

I don't think he really WANTS his life to return to normal.

TA... the minute you saw the door open a little bit... you asked her to come back to the bedroom.. BAM...gigantic 2X4.

You pushed...she thought...give an inch..he takes a mile.

Stop letting things roll off your tongue assuming it's the right thing to do.

BABY steps.

THE most you should have done at this point is thank her for being honest. Not even Thank her for giving you the slightest of chance... thank her for the 30 minutes of time she spent talking to you.

START THINKING SMALL.

This will go MUCH further.

I have never seen any indication your W is in any type of A. I think the crush on the OM...and that's all it was.... was a cry for help. Now you have to answer the call.

MY suspicion...if there really WAS another guy...she is SO unhappy at this point..she'd have walked away from her ENTIRE life to give it a go.

This woman has detached from her life...completely...not just TA....but her children.

These are classic signs of depression.

TA...if you LISTEN...you have a great chance of turning this around.

<small>[ January 13, 2005, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: betrayedinjersey ]</small>

Thanks for everyone’s input.

As I stated before I talked to my wife via cellphone for about 30-40 minutes yesterday
afternoon. I asked her “how are doing today?” She said “fine,” I then said “how are we
doing?” She said “I don’t understand what you mean?” I said “how is our relationship
going in your eyes?” She said “same as before, I’m getting a divorce, nothings changed.”

I said “haven’t you seen any changes in me?” She said “oh yes, I’ve seen a lot of changes,
you’ve done a 180, but it’s too late. You’ll be a good catch for your next wife, too bad
you didn’t make these changes years ago we would still be together today. I told you
before, I left this marriage Emotionally for good one year ago and I’m not coming back.
it’s too late.”

Well we talked honestly and openly for the first time in our marriage for the next 30
minutes. She then told me that she doesn’t believe my changes will stick, I’ll go back to
my old ways. I told her I don’t blame her for feeling that way, in the old days she most
likely would have been correct. I also told her if I go back to my old ways and she decides
to leave then I have no one to blame but myself.

She told me she has been so confused for the last year and none of her options were
working, she felt trapped. She didn’t want our children coming from a BROKEN home,
yet she didn’t Love me and she doesn’t want to stay in a relationship where there is no
Love, it’best if we both move on. Then she said “I’m afraid you’ll fall apart if I leave and
stop taking care of yourself, your children need you in their life. I talked for quite a while
about what SH had been telling us. Steve told her “the problem is she doesn’t Love me,
the answer is for her TO Love me.” SH told her about when we first met and we were
satisfying each others EN’s, we were both doing everything we could to remain
boyfriend/girlfriend, we eventually lost sight of that when Life got in the way. SH told
her if we fill each others Top 3 EN’s it impossible NOT to have loving feelings again.

She then came home after several hours after having her hair cut, colored, and styled, she
looked gorgeous. I’m not sure if I’ve ever seen her hair look that good in her life (most
likely for OM). We eventually made it back to our bedroom at about 9:00pm, we were
planning on talking for about 10 minutes. Four hours later we were still talking and I told
her she had to go to sleep because she had to get up for work in 5 hours. I slept in our
bed last night and I am here to stay.

It would take me 20 hours to type everything we talked about so I’ll give Cliff notes.

She refused to talk about OM, as far as she was concerned we were over with a year ago
and she doesn’t want to talk about “it” any longer, it’s over with.

We want to start a new life following Dr H’s teachings, radical honesty is the first one, she
said she doesn’t Trust me and I always get my way. She wants to be treated as an equal.

She wants me to be nicer to our teenage daughter who is beginning to be rebellious, my
wife is afraid she will lose her best friend in a few years when she meets some guy. My
wife said she will be very lonely and has been thinking about this for the last few years.
She said then I would be stuck here at home with you, someone I don’t Love.

My changes have to stick and she said you still have a long way to go which I
acknowledged was true. I told her it’s not going to happen overnight, just like a Diet
doesn’t work overnight but I will work on myself daily.

She said she has always had a hard time letting me into her life because of her issues. She
said both of her parents were alcoholics and mentally abusive. She also never went to
church or had any faith in God until she met me. She was baptized and then nothing for
18 years, the only person she ever trusted was herself. In addition she admitted she is a
“conflict avoider” because she did whatever she could to avoid conflict with her alcoholic
father when she was a child. She said she always has to have her guard up with anyone,
except maybe our teenage daughter.

We talked about so many things my mind is racing right now, as I think of other
statements she said then I will post.

This morning I went downstairs to great her in the kitchen, she didn’t look that happy. I
went to give her a hug and she walked away. I then tried to give her a kiss and she turned
her head and I kissed her on the cheek. I then told her how great her hair looked, and she
said “it should look good, it cost me $200.”

She also accused me of “SPYING” on her for the last 2 months. She said “I know you
have Private Investigators following my every move, I’m sure you have a GPS in my car
and probably a recording device. I wouldn’t be surprised if you Paid one of my coworkers
off to spy on me, and I think I know who she is. She also said, I don’t like the way you
keep track of me, I feel guilty if I’m 5 minutes late getting home. I feel like your
monitoring my every move and thinking I’m with OM. I don’t like it and I want you to
stop immediately. I told her I had no one following her, no GPS and I did not bribe one
of her coworkers. She said if this ever gets out then I’ll get fired and I like my job.

She also feels like she is being Manipulated by me one more time. She said she feels like a Chump. I told her that I do not think of her as a chump, but a loving wife. I told her any husband would try to save his marriage, why wouldn't I.

She then walked out the door and drove of to work.

Now what do I do?

How do I make this transition smooth?

Thanks

Andrew

<small>[ January 14, 2005, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: TA ]</small>

Focus on the four intimate emotional needs of affection, sexual fulfillment, recreational companionship, and intimate conversation.

The past will fade for your wife if the present is consistently good. That's how Harley's program works.

Cherished

<small>[ January 15, 2005, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cherished:
<strong> Focus on the four intimate emotional needs of affection, sexual fulfillment, recreational companionship, and intimate conversation. Women tend to have intimate conversation or affection among their top needs.

My H has started following the program. It turns out that affection is very important for me. Every morning, he is giving me 15 minutes of physical affection -- just gentle touching. I love it.

He broke my arm. He pushed down on my forehead so hard that I thought he was going to bash in my skull and I still have a lump in my forehead seven years later. He had an affair. He's sworn at me thousands of times. He neglected me.

I am very scared to allow this man who has so hurt me to be part of my life again.

And yet, I love that physical affection. The physical affection is in the present. The physical abuse, the swearing, and I think the affair are all in the past.

The past will fade for your wife if the present is consistently good. That's how Harley's program works.

Cherished </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Cherished,

This is the day I have been praying for and now that it is here I'm terrified I am going to blow it. I'm guessing since it took us 4 months to get to this point, it will take me just as long or longer to see any real changes in her to show me some loving feedback. It seems like I'm going to be alone, fighting by myself like I have been for the last 4 months. Does it ever STOP, darn rollercoaster.

My wife does NOT like affection at all, although she loves Sex, go figure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Her parents never showed any affection when she was a child and she said she doesn't know how to give it in return.

The SF I am going to hold off for now, I'll wait until she tells me.

My wife hates to be touched in the morning, I mean hate. She doesn't know why but she has always been crabby when she wakes up no matter how happy she may be. Been that way all her life.

She also is not in the mood for conversation, she has too much resentment towards me.

In terms of recreational activities we may go snow skiing if we get enough snow, we always take the kids.

I am going to go slow with this transition, I'm sure she'll be crabby for quite some time.

She is going to tell me what her top 5 EN's are this weekend. At least I'll know what her top 3 are.

Thanks

Andrew (walking on Eggshells)

Originally posted by knewbetter:

She may have accepted it but she has made it clear she doesn't want to continue.

This is exactly what she told me yesterday, she accepted it for many reasons. But now she can't go on any longer in this type of relationship.



Actually it doesn't if there never was one. It would be the best case scenario in my opinion partially because individual issues and related marital problems are sometimes masked by the obvious drama of an affair. In other words the WS is such an "obvious bad guy" that unless the BS does the personal work necesary to overcome their own issues, the cycle begins all over again in their new relationship.

Can you elaborate on this statement please?


It is doubtful that Mrs. TA concocted something to shape up her husband. She didn't want him to shape up, she wanted him GONE. If she was truly cunning she could have done a WAY better job of supporting her story, trust me.

This is 100% correct, she wanted me gone period. She believed I would never change, she told me this last night. Can you go into futher detail? Are you saying she was/is having an affair?

Originally posted by TooSoonToBeComfortable:

His WW may have had an exit affair and was simply planning her exit. I thought mine was having a midlife crisis but she openly admitted it to be an exit affair. It didn't matter if she got caught since it was her tool to move on, although she kept is a secret.

I'm starting to believe this is what happened. She told me on D-Day she didn't care anymore what happened to her. I could KILL her and she wouldn't care she "Hated her Life."

riginally posted by betrayedinjersey:
She proved her point and now it is over and there life will resume to normalcy.

[/QUOTE]I think that's a misleading statement.

TA has stated repeatedly that his wife "checked" out of the marriage years ago.

I don't think he really WANTS his life to return to normal.

I told my wife I never want to go back to our old marriage, I want to rebuild a new marriage.


THE most you should have done at this point is thank her for being honest. Not even Thank her for giving you the slightest of chance... thank her for the 30 minutes of time she spent talking to you.

That's the first thing I did yesterday when we were ending our phone conversation. I thanked her for being honest with me and letting me know where I stand.

START THINKING SMALL.

This will go MUCH further.

I have never seen any indication your W is in any type of A. I think the crush on the OM...and that's all it was.... was a cry for help. Now you have to answer the call.

MY suspicion...if there really WAS another guy...she is SO unhappy at this point..she'd have walked away from her ENTIRE life to give it a go.

This woman has detached from her life...completely...not just TA....but her children.

She has always been very attached to our children.

She said on D-Day she didn't care what happened with the children, she wanted to start a new life, a new beginning. I was shocked when she made this statement. I know she adores her children, our daughter is her best friend.

These are classic signs of depression.

This is why I think she started Drinking a bottle of wine everyday starting at 7:00am in the morning.

TA...if you LISTEN...you have a great chance of turning this around.

<small>[ January 14, 2005, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: TA ]</small>

TA,

I was just telling you how the program works for me, not how it can work for your W.

The most important feeling that your wife needs is not the feeling of love. It's the feeling of hope -- hope that comes from your saying that you want her to be happy, you are willing to change to do things to make her happy, and you want to spend time with her.

If you are going this weekend, good luck! Do your part. Do what you can to give her hope.

Cherished

<small>[ January 15, 2005, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

The most important feeling that your wife needs is not the feeling of love. It's the feeling of hope -- hope that comes from your saying that you want her to be happy, you are willing to change to do things to make her happy, and you want to spend time with her.


You hit the nail right on the head. She wants to see some hope that this marriage can work. I told her what SH said. The first 2 weeks in recovery is the hardest. If we learn to meet each others Top 3 needs we will have a great marriage. Meeting 2 EN's would be a good marriage. SH said it's really pretty simple, complete the ENQ and start meeting each other Top 3 needs and the Loving feelings will come back just like when we first met. There is no trick, just meet each others needs.
.

Cherished

I just scheduled a meeting with SH for next Tuesday to help me deal with this situation.

Hopefully we will still be a couple by Tuesday. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Andrew

I just talked to my wife at lunch and she had a great attitude. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I was almost afraid to even call her. I told her I had no P.I. following her. She said I told you before, you're not going to find anything so quit spending our money if you are. There was never anything going on, I told you that in September when I told you I wanted a Divorce.

She said "I know your P.I. hasn't found anything because there is nothing to find."

She talked about dinner and what is going on this weekend as though the last 4 months never happened. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Is this the type of Rollercoaster ride I can expect?