We have our ups and our downs and today is my down. After coughing for a month, I've caught another bad cold. It's really throwing me out of wack.

WH missed MC this week. I find I miss that time with him. It brings us together for an hour and is generally good. I just don't know where he's coming from. He came to our son's sport event last night and it was weird. I'm not sure if after 7 years of DS doing this sport, WH has suddenly developed a passion or he wants to be a part of DS's successful season. Or does he think this will prove he's an adequate father to a court? Sitting next to him was like sitting with a stranger. Is this a plot to make it seem to him like we're friends so our marriage can fade out of sight.

I hate waiting. I want to gouge everything out and get it settled. I want WH to come clean out OW. I want resolution.

Sick, in a bad mood and it's cold outside. A rotten combination.

gg,

Sorry you are having a bad day and a cold too. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Had my bad day yesterday that sort of still rolled into today. Could be he is trying to assuage his guilt by pretending to be the good father. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Hang in there.

ok grapegirl

Iam feeling s***** and sad today to.

I am going to Plan B soon.

Are you in PlanA or B since your WH is not living with you. Where is he staying. Does he deny OW exists. Do you know who she is????????

Okay too many questions find a blanket get a hot drink and watch a feel good movie. It helps to turn off your brain.

GRAPE:

I keep following you around because I really feel for you. I have been right in your place, said the same things you are saying and have felt your same feelings. You know how it is when your children aren't listening to you and you know better. That's how I feel about you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> hate waiting. I want to gouge everything out and get it settled. I want WH to come clean out OW. I want resolution </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can't wait, GRAPE. You will be waiting forever. This thought process will make you depressed and sick. I bet your therapist would agree with me. ACTIVITY is the CURE for this. DEVELOP YOUR OWN PLAN. That's what I have been encouraging you to do.

It seems that you are waiting for him to do something like fill out the questionnaires or explain this all to you. He cannot. He is out of control. He is addicted to the OW. He does not have a plan other than wanting to continue this. He wants whatever he got in SINGAPORE. You are a smart and capable woman who can figure this all out and WIN THIS BATTLE as long as you DON'T LAY DOWN and GIVE UP.

However, you have to develop an action plan. I don't mean to sound like I don't care when you are having a bad day. However, if you are anything like I was, none of my days without my H were really good. I didn't think that I could live without him. I decided that I had to DO SOMETHING and MB is what I did. I followed these concepts to a T and now my FWW and I are happier than we ever were. REALLY!!!!!!

<small>[ January 13, 2005, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

I'm pasting an excellent post by SHATTERED DREAMS that restates what I have been communicating to you today. Hope it helps.

SHATTERED DREAMS STATED TO DYINGHERE:

don't hear that you are doing "much" of a Plan A, and if I'm right, your Plan B will be very ineffective.

Have you read Surviving and Affair and do you understand what Plan A is all about? Do you understand that you are to improve all those things about you that NEED CHANGE, as they probably contributed to your marriage being vulnerable to an affair?

Have you shown your WH the very best side of you, how great a W you are and can be? Have you been complimentary, loving, withholding all LoveBusters for the two months past D-Day?

If not, you've really not been in Plan A. Plan A also calls for exposure of the Affair. Have you exposed to all of the others at work? Have you exposed to his parents. Have you exposed to the OW's parents?

If you have done all of this, and have truly been in an effective Plan A since D-Day, then I apologize for the 2 x 4's here. However, YOU are responsible for YOUR part in all this, and YOU are responsible for how YOU react to all this. Plan A will empower you. You take charge of your life. You improve yourself. You show WH what a grand catch he's thinking of giving up.

On the other hand, regarding WH, as others have said, there is NOTHING you can SAY to influence him at this time. He's been abducted by the aliens, and he cannot speak to, or hear clearly from, humans in his life. He can only percieve influence though ACTIONS. Your ACTIONS. YOUR PLAN A actions.

Your WH has no plan. He is a lost soul. You have a Plan. Plan A. Understand it, keep it in place, and work it with a vengence. You have only been in Plan A a very short time. Give it a while longer, but set a date, and if it (in it's true form, exercised by you intensively for another 30 - 60 days) has made no impact, then go to Plan B.

You cannot survive this by waking and assuming the old "poor, pitiful me" attitude, and hoping it will all go away. You have to develop a positive, pro-active approach, and administer Plan A in a positive way, without any expectations. Unconditional Love! That's Plan A. Post here with questions and for support, but don't be sucked in to the quagmire of self doubt. Rise above it all, and stay busy doing positive things for your M and for you. Emotionally detach from your WH and treat him like the alien he's become. Do not let his moods and fog-speak alter you postive mental outlook. Make him wonder about YOU, and HOW and WHY you are so upbeat and positive.

Plan A works, I know, I've done it. Is it easy. No. But when you get the hang of it, it becomes easier. And it works. And if you love your WH it is the BEST way to reach him.

Best wishes,
SD

--------------------

Mimi, you're catching me at a really down time. I'm reading Surviving an Affair. My head is pretty clogged so it's slow going.

I'm trying to Plan A but it's hard when he's not around. I have to figure how much of my self do I shut down for it. I know you're going to say it's not about me. That I need to change. Do I need to become subserviant? Do I need to hang on his every word? Do I need to have a personality transplant to match his personality transplant?

What did WH get in Singapore? The entire company telling him what a savior he was. A very nice, very clean hotel room, dinner out every night, drinks and entertainment after that, all on the company's dime. No homework to supervise. No children to babysit. No chores to do. No other people to listen to. Just one needy, selfish slimeball woman hanging on his every word about work. WH says what they talk about most is WORK. I'm interested in his work and like to talk about it but there are so many more interesting things in life besides work. So, he has all those needs fulfilled in his empty, barren apartment. He can get his kid-fix by visiting us. Classic cakeeater.

I'm trying to keep my house cleaner. I'm complimenting him about his appearance and how important he is at work. Puffing about the job. This OW thing just comes between us too much. I can't figure it out. How can you do Plan A without any feedback?

I plan to move into Plan B as soon as DS's sports season is done. After that we don't need much contact and I can go dark. I need to make it through this time period.

Maybe I just need to throw in the towel. I don't think I can do this anymore. Maybe we're just not meant to be married. Maybe it was all always a sham. I'm am a smart woman. I'm an analyst. But I'm also so tired and beatup. Okay, I guess it is poor me time. Let me wallow for a bit.

Ok. Wallowing allowed today. However, I don't think you mean what you are saying.

I don't want you to hand him over to that SLIME BALL on a silver platter.

After today, it's time to get back up on the horse.

How? What puts WH on the platter? You saw my points. Which ones do I hit upon. I'm feeling low and clueless today. However, once I get the seed of an idea, I can do with it.

cough, cough, cough

Grape:

I was going to let you wallow. However, you asked me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe I just need to throw in the towel. I don't think I can do this anymore. Maybe we're just not meant to be married. Maybe it was all always a sham </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This type of thinking is handing him over to her. This is how the OW wants you to think and this is what she want your WW to believe. She is telling him that you don't love him, that you don't care about him, that she is his one true love, that she is who can make him happy because she is the one that understands HIS WORK.

It is your choice. Do you want to fignt for him or not? I would think that you do. He is your lifemate. He is the father of your children.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WH says what they talk about most is WORK. I'm interested in his work and like to talk about it but there are so many more interesting things in life besides work. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If this is what your WH is interested in, why do you think that it is up to you to decide that there are more interesting things. If that is what he wants to talk about, it's important for you to learn to listen. This is part of what happens in a loving marriage. You would be showing love for him for listening to what he is interested in talking about. Same goes for what you are interested in. He needs to also listen to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can you do Plan A without any feedback?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">PLAN A is YOUR PLAN. It's the plan that YOU devise to be the best person that you can be, the best wife that you can be.

***What did WH get in Singapore? The entire company telling him what a savior he was. A very nice, very clean hotel room, dinner out every night, drinks and entertainment after that, all on the company's dime. No homework to supervise. No children to babysit. No chores to do. No other people to listen to. Just one needy, selfish slimeball woman hanging on his every word about work.***

Just substitute "Chicago" or "Columbus" or "San Francisco" or "Orlando" for Singapore, and I could have written this post word-for-word.

There is no competing with this -- not when the WS has already told himself it's okay to do this because the Company says it's great. The wife cannot remove the kids and the house and the daily routines of a normal family from his life -- and why on earth would she? Reality cannot compete with fantasy, not when the WS firmly believes they are entitled to some fantasy and it's not going to hurt anyone or anything.

No amount of desperate EN-filling behavior on the part of the BS is ever going to take away this one "EN" -- the one that says "I am need fantasy, I need admiratation and attention from attractive women, and I need sex with new partners."

Somebody please tell me how a wife is supposed to fulfill THAT emotional need. Please. I'm serious.

And oh, the waiting. Get used to it. It's just another way to avoid you and make the problem YOUR problem instead of theirs.

Did you know that doctors and counselors who treat torture victims are told *never* to make these people sit and wait for their treatment? Waiting is often part of the torture, in that the victims are forced to wait for the torture to begin and then forced to wait again for whatever minimal care they receive when it's over (like a little water or food.)

Forcing someone to wait when you know they have need of you is just another form of cruelty.
Mulan

Mulan, You've struck a nerve with me. I just don't know how to fulfill the ENs. I can't compete with the whole work thing. Work is so overwhelming and all-encompassing, it blots out everything else. Even OW is in the shadow of it.
There's late work meetings, afterhours work calls, emails. I am I suppose to slither in and coo, "Your product makes me hot!"

I cannot take away the children and the house and the mess. WH may want to give up that family but I never will. Should I tell my kids that Dad will never come home if they don't pick up their stuff? Should I take away the activities and thoughts that make me, me? Our MC said that maybe I should consider the fact I read a lot a thing that gets between us. Before we had a computer, I could sit next to him and read. Now, the computer is a solitary thing. Can I change my sleep patterns? WH liked to go to bed really late, like midnight, and get up early. Can we say he was the one who decided not to go to bed with me?

I can see that I really am in a bad, hopeless mood today.

I'm waiting now but I'm not waiting for long. Good analogy to torture victims. We are being tortured, aren't we?

This is why MB does not work when addictions are present. A person can be just as addicted to attention and ego-stroking from the opposite sex as they are to booze, dope or gambling.

No BS can hope to fill an EN when it is twisted and warped and unreasonable and addictive.

Wanting and needing admiration from one's mate is a reasonable EN in a married person.

Wanting and needing admiration from lots of attractive members of the opposite sex is *not* a reasonable EN in a married person. It's destructive and addictive.

It's not that faithfully married people don't ever notice attractive men and attractive women. They just don't act out on the temptation and find positive ways to deal with it instead.

I often wonder, "Why the he!! are these people married, when they obviously consider the marriage an obstacle to their own happiness???" Answer: They're not married. They might have a wife, or they might have a husband, and they actually do like having a wife or a husband because that can be mighty comfortable and convenient at times -- but they aren't married.

There are a whole lot of people walking around who aren't married. They just have a spouse. Big difference. "Married" is a state of action too, just like "love". It's not just your legal status for tax purposes -- or at least, it's not supposed to be. Look what happens when that's all it is.

Mulan (not bitter or anything - sorry, he stayed out until almost 12:30 a.m. last night "working" and never bothered to call. It was also the night of the big no-spouses allowed awards dinner -- the one he promised he would not go to since we could not go together. Gee, what a coincidence.)

<small>[ January 13, 2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Mulan ]</small>

MULAN;

Your post does not fit with MB PRINCIPLES!

I really disagree with you.

MY FWH was extremely addicted to the OW. I did fail to meet his need for ADMIRATION and she slipped right in and met this need.

I am happily, very happily reconciled with him because I followed the MB STRATEGIES through counseling with STeve Harley.

GRAPE:

If you do not want my help and want to listen to this, FINE.

***MY FWH was extremely addicted to the OW. I did fail to meet his need for ADMIRATION and she slipped right in and met this need.***

Mimi: The OW in your case was still just one woman, right? She stepped in and took your place.

That's not what I'm talking about. What do we do when WH's EN is not for Admiration from just one woman in his life -- he got plenty from me -- but an ongoing need to get Admiration from a whole string of attractive women at every possible opportunity?

Many WHs are just as addicted to this sort of female attention as your WH was to his one single OW. It is every bit as destructive to a marriage.
How do we deal with this sort of EN? I have never seen an answer to this here. In all seriousness, what do we do?

Was I supposed to be a fawning office assistant, an adoring secretary, a lonely single girl, a stripper, a porn star and a wh*re for him? That's what he wanted and that's what he loves. Are you saying that if I had managed to fill his EN for this sort of constant female attention and admiration, he would not have ignored me for them?
That's exactly what it sounds like.

I think many "ENs" are not legitimate when a WS is in the fog of an affair -- but the BS is still told that "if you had met his ENs, he would not have cheated." And I'm just saying that this is NOT always true.

There, I said it. Mulan is officially NOT a conflict avoider. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But really -- if somebody can tell me how I and grapegirl and all the rest of us can fulfill our WH's EN for Admiration from women *in addition* to Admiration from their wives, I'm listening.
Mulan

Okay, okay. I surrender! Chill! Peace! I take advice from everybody.

Mimi, Mulan and I are in a different spot than you are. Recovery looks really good but I haven't made it there yet. Neither, it seems has Mulan. I hope with MB I can make it.

Everybody's situation is a little different. On this board, we've got doctors, accountants, SAHP, teachers, service people and more than I can list. One thing Mulan and I have in common, is that our husbands are having 2 affairs. One is with a woman or women and the other is with work. It sucks everything away. My poor WH is in an industry that demands your soul, undermines your family and then chews you up and spits you out. Anybody who gives less than 150% is open to be layed off. Actually, anybody can be layed off. I know, I use to work in the industry and am so glad I am no longer a part of it. It's hard to feel a lot of admiration for work like that. It's like enabling. Just check out the divorce rate in the electronics industry. As much as WH professes to love his work, he'd be a better person if he gave it up. Of course, then it pays the bills quite well and we'll soon have 2 kids in college. Ah, for balance and boundaries.

I don't think WH has been chasing women every where he goes on his trips. If he did, this is the first that's lasted. He probably does have a need for admiration and I plan to work on it. I have worked hard on the LB. A family, with all the noise, mess and activity that goes with it cannot compete with an empty, quiet, barren apartment if that is what he feels he needs.

WH's OW is divorced with 3 kids and lives an hours commute away. How much time he is there, I can't say. Is being with strange children in a different house any less stressful?

I'm taking very seriously the suggestion of phone counseling with SH. It's going to have to wait a few days until I can talk without coughing my brains out.

Like I say, I take advice from everybody. People said, don't let WH come home for Christmas and I did. And it was the right decision. Was it a proper MB decision? I don't know.

I told you my FWH was like yours. I meant it. My FWH was a workaholic. He got tired of devoting himself to his job and decided to devote himself to the OW. For two years, I thought he was at work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I did my best to try to help you today.

Best of luck to you.

<small>[ January 13, 2005, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>