Hello.

I have been lurking on this site since around July of '04. I have found a great deal of help here, without ever posting myself, but I feel like I need to ask something now.

First a little background:

My GF and I met while we were both going through divorces back in 2002. We work for the same company (then at different locations) and had begun talking after we found out that we were both separated. We hit it off and decided that we would be "friends with benefits", as neither of us were enthusiastic about having a real R given the circumstances. Long story short, we hit it off very well indeed and ended up moving in together very shortly after our D's were final.

Fast forward a couple of years...we have a son together, have made our vows to each other, have a house together, 2.5 cars, the works, but are not married in the eyes of the government. Odd situation, I know, but it seemed to be working for us. She had been talking about formalising our arrangement, but I had been holding off...just didn't "feel" right. I loved her a great deal, and had sworn myself to her for the rest of my life...I decided that in refusing to have the big ceremony and all, I was being foolish. So, I told her..hmm...midway through May of '04, that if she would have me, I would count myself very lucky to be at her side in church, in front of everyone, and repeat the vows I had already made to her and God.

She said she was no longer sure. This threw me for a loop, because she had made the same promises I had. She had apparently been very depressed for a goodly while (maybe even since the birth of our son in early 2003), but I had missed the signs. To make a long story short, she needed time to think about things. After reading through a lot of your stories here, I am certain those words sound familiar.

On the morning of May 29th, 2003, I was going through our computers making sure we were clean...there was some virus or another that was making the rounds that supposedly attached itself to .jpeg files. Mine came up clean, but I found a pic on hers that I didn't recognise the name of. I opened it, and found that it was a topless shot of her that we had taken while fooling around with a borrowed digicam. We had been using it to take pictures for her to paint (she is a BRILLIANT artist).

I had thought the only copies were on a CD, and got a real sinking feeling in my stomach. I did a little poking around and found that she had emailed it to a "mutual" friend that we had met while playing an online video game.

I called her immediately and confronted her. She was very apologetic, and told me she didn't know why she had emailed it, had never done anything like that before, had never had any inappropriate conversations with the guy before...you all know the drill. I told her that I had logged onto her email and found who it had been sent to and she hit the ceiling, yelling at me to "respect her privacy" etc. I turned really stupid then and agreed to not check any further, to take her word that she would come clean to me and we would discuss it when she got home from work.

That evening, we had a very good conversation, and ended up recommitting to each other. I was still very hurt by what she had done, but everyone makes mistakes, and she claimed to be willing to stay away from places that might tempt her into impropriety online. She was even willing to stop playing the game where we met the fella, and asked if I minded if she at least said goodbye to our other friends first. I was uncomfortable with this, but saw no valid reason why she shouldn't. Afterwards, things were great.
For 2 or 3 days.

By this point, we were both working at the same location (different shifts), and part of my duties are to ensure the security of our office computers. I noticed a LOT of unusual internet activity on the terminal that she has access to. Flashback, the same sinking feeling, the same anxiety...you all know what I am talking about.

I went through the logs, and found a no foolin love letter to ANOTHER fella, saying that she was gonna be "online a lot less for a little while. Know that I will always love you, and will count the minutes until I see you again.". I was shattered. Exposed to our supervisor who came in before I left that morning, then went home. I sat in the rocking chair beside our bed that morning, and watched her sleep, thinking about what I had found out, and trying to decide if I even wanted to try to let her stay.

She woke up, and I told her what I had discovered. I told her that as long as she was completely up front and honest with me about EVERYTHING, that I was willing to try to work things out. She denied, then tried to minimise. We talked for hours those first couple of days, and she told me all that I know now about the two I knew of, and one that I didn't. I unfortunately found out about most of the others through snooping on her laptop, and she came clean about 2 more I hadn't found out about.

Long story short, this beautiful, talented, intellegent, interesting, GOOD person that I had shared my life with had been lying to me since 4 months after we met. While I was out of the room while she was in labor with our son, she was IMing her other partners. She was off work for the first 9 months of our son's life...in that time, she spent 100 times more energy on her fantasy life than she did being a mother to our son or a partner to me. She would freqently get me to ask my mother to watch our son so she could have "a day off", or ask the same of me so she could "get out of the house" on the few days that I could.

She still insists she never met any of the 8 people she had affairs with RL, only phone, email, pictures, and video. I cannot bring myself to believe that.

She had made plans to move across the country to be with one of them...it was sickening to read the chatlogs where she told him what a great father he would be to OUR son. Understand, I am more devoted to our son than I think I have ever been to anyone in my life...he is the central and most important part of my life. Was even before I caught her, though I tried not to neglect our R because of that. I would at least every other week arrange for us to have at least one "just the two of us" night and day.

Well, it has been...7 months since D-Day #1. To the best of my knowledge, she hasn't attempted to decieve me in at least 3 months. She has been, in most respects, something really close to the perfect partner to me for that long.

This is my problem: I would have said the same thing if anyone had asked me all the while. I DID tell her that often while the A's were going on.(With the exceptions of wishing she were a little more attentive to domestic things...our son, housework, etc... I was having to work really long hours to make up for her not working, and we had agreed that she would bear the lions share of household duties while she was staying home.)

She has been telling me recently that she wants my trust back very badly. I feel pressured to "forgive and forget" these things that I don't know if I EVER can.

My first thought is not to doubt everything she tells me now. But, I do doubt more often than not. I try to be gentle in answering her questions, but sometimes there is no nice way to talk and be honest. I try to avoid LB's as much as I can while maintaining my integrity.

My question is this...and I know that there are no easy answers, but I am hoping for new ideas at least:

How can we have a good relationship without trust? How can I learn to trust her, knowing that a lot of what I knew of her for 3/4's of the time I have known her was not true?

I want to be with her. I feel love for her. Respect is harder. Complete trust has thus far eluded me.

For financial reasons, counseling is not an option, neither MC nor IC for either of us.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. I know for many of you our story will bring back a lot of bad memories. I know that I am very lucky compared to MANY of the other BS's that post here.

Some days, though, I don't feel very lucky at all.

-OAK

Welcome to MB,

NOw here is what you can do for free:

1. read the concepts section above.
2. Take the Emotional Needs questionnaire. Once as yourself and once as her.

3. Go to the library and check out:
Suriving an Affair - Dr W. Harley
His Needs/Her Needs - "
Love must be tough - Dr. James Dobson

READ THEM

4. Secure your finances. Sometimes WS' go crazy with family funds. Don't assume she won't.

5. post here as needed.

6. Identify your boundaries and post back to help determine when to implement them.

7. Identify your local support group. IT c/b friends, family, relatives, neighbors, pet, children, stranger in the store, co-workers, local minister, IC/MC, etc. Don't have to tell all to all but ask that they respect your decisions and you will hear their suggestions.

8. Keep a journal with dates and times.

That's enough for now. Now go get cracking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

Orchid, thanks for responding <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

In order.

1)done months ago

2)Done, and she filled one out as well. No real surprises, but did make me and (I think) her think about things a little differently.

3)Gonna buy em when money allows...I work graveyard shift and am alone with our boy during the day. I try not to go overboard on thinking about A-related stuff while I am playing with him...he is awfully young, but I don't want to take a chance on him picking up on "daddy is all screwed up and just LOOKS brave" for a few more years if I can manage. Given that I really need my 4 hours of sleep a day, library is right out for the time being.

4)done as much as is possible while still including her in our family finances. This is actually a point of contention for us...I think I would just be foolish NOT to try to watch out for our boy and me, she tells me that it is very painful to be "constantly reminded" that I don't entirely trust her.

5)Now that I have taken the plunge and posted once, I foresee this happening a lot. I am normally pretty private, especially online given what went on, but I feel pretty safe here.

6)Very much a work in progress..will post what coherant thoughts I have when I get them lined up.

7)Having a little trouble finding this for myself...I am of the thought that R talks need to stay within the R, but am beginning to see now that this might be pretty helpful with someone/ones that I trust. My taking things to my mom, who I am close to, isn't a good idea, I think. She knows generally what went on, but I don't want to generate any unneccesary friction between her and her grandson's mom, you know? I have been thinking about getting back in touch with an old friend for this.

8 )I am..call it 75% sure that the A's are over, but I am and have been accounting for not only my time but also hers as best I can.

Consider me cracked <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and thanks again.

__EDIT__
FallingUp is my SO


-OAK

<small>[ January 16, 2005, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: OnceAKnight ]</small>

I posted to her already. Now you get to sit back and watch for a while. These things take time. Keep your journal and post when you can.

take care,
L.

Oak,

sorry you find yourself here....but you are in good company!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has been telling me recently that she wants my trust back very badly. I feel pressured to "forgive and forget" these things that I don't know if I EVER can.

First Oak.....you CAN but it will take a lot of effort on her part and a lot of time!! You will be able to forgive........forget is another story!

My first thought is not to doubt everything she tells me now. But, I do doubt more often than not. I try to be gentle in answering her questions, but sometimes there is no nice way to talk and be honest. I try to avoid LB's as much as I can while maintaining my integrity.

Your first thought is RIGHT ON.....until she "proves" it in her actions daily you will have to doubt what she says! You have proved she is a liar......it will agian TAKE time and EFFORT on HER part to restore that. Not you.

My question is this...and I know that there are no easy answers, but I am hoping for new ideas at least:

How can we have a good relationship without trust? How can I learn to trust her, knowing that a lot of what I knew of her for 3/4's of the time I have known her was not true?


The answer is simple....you can't have a good relationship without trust. But you did not just arbitrarally decide not to trust!!! She LOST it. Now she must EARN it back. You now will be the one to decide if she has done the work!
I want to be with her. I feel love for her. Respect is harder. Complete trust has thus far eluded me.

For financial reasons, counseling is not an option, neither MC nor IC for either of us.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. I know for many of you our story will bring back a lot of bad memories. I know that I am very lucky compared to MANY of the other BS's that post here.

Some days, though, I don't feel very lucky at all.

You have EVERY RIGHT to not feel very lucky.....your W betrayed you. The Good NEWS is she can earn your trust back!! And you can learn to believe her thru the "remorse" that she shows!!
-OAK
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blessings,
Atruheart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well... it really hurts to see all of this written out... and helps a little, I think.

I spent soooo much of my life online back then. The relationships I formed, platonic or otherwise, were a huge deal to me. I tended to read much more into things than was actually there, and tended to vent all my steam about my life at anyone who would listen for a few minutes.... and would get very attached very quickly.

I thought that good couples didn't argue about the things that I was getting upset about, and that the thing to do was just let him have his way and gripe about it to everyone else when he wasn't around to see the fact that I really didn't like some of his decisions. (On a side note, looking back with new eyes, he was right about most of those things... go figure...) I was really hurt by the fact that he wasn't interested in getting married... and then I let myself be convinced that I didn't want that either (and went to the extreme, I am sad to say...)

When he found out, I had a tough time letting go... for a few days... I woke up, and it was like a revalation: If I wanted to keep him, I had to let go of everyone I knew on the 'net. NOT a problem. I realized that all of that was a fantasy, and that it was killing the real thing, the best thing I had ever had.

Quite frankly, looking back, I am shocked at my behavior, and really wish I could take it all back.

I had never had regrets before. I guess there's a first, second, ninety-ninth time for everything.

After everything was exposed, I know that he was only letting me stay because of our son... and I was okay with that, because honestly, I don't know if I would have even done that in his shoes. I have been working my behind off to show him that I am not doing those things anymore, that I am honest and true and faithful, and that I love him. If I didn't, I wouldn't have stayed myself. God knows he gave me plenty of reasons to leave during the first few months, between name-calling and anger and the general cold nature of our household during the aftermath of it all... not that I blame him. It snapped me out of my depression, but I had this mental block or something... I think I had blocked out most of it in self-defense, and had a tough time remembering everything. I feel like he knows as much as I do, as he has the chat logs and emails...maybe even more... I was very forthcoming with my feelings to those other people. I look at the person that I was, and can't understand how she was feeling or why she was feeling that way, only that she was desperately unhappy.... it's like looking at someone else.

I do my very best to be good to him and to myself now. I try to let him know what I'm thinking and what I'm feeling instead of going to someone else with that... I do much better at keeping things done around the house, and I take much better care of our son now.

It hurts that he isn't sure about my fidelity even today, as I have gone to great lengths to show him that I am not doing anything that I should not be. But I guess I can't expect any more than that.

...And I absolutely DO feel lucky.

-FallingUp

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by atruheart:
The Good NEWS is she can earn your trust back!! And you can learn to believe her thru the "remorse" that she shows!!
-OAK
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blessings,
Atruheart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> [/QB][/QUOTE]

It helps to hear that from one who is living it, Atruheart. Thanks for taking to time to read and reply to my very wordy post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-OAK

Oak & Falling,

I like what I am reading this morning from U 2. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Enjoy each other today. Do something pleasant and fun...... keep posting and showing care to each other.

Love maybe hard t/d right now but care can be done with less of an emotional impact. Stick with the more simple expressions of love. Care and kindness are a good place to start. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

Welcome OAK and FallingUp.

On-line chat and chat rooms can be an addiction in of themselves. They "virtually" fill needs that are otherwise unmet. But they are destructive to marriages/relationships and a incredible fraud in the long term.

FallingUp should be in counseling for her addiction. For the moment she has been shocked out of needing it where she's scrambling to save what is most important in REAL LIFE. But I fear if she doesn't find out "WHY" she resorted to virtuality-ville she risks a repeat performance ... please remember THIS IS AN ADDICTION and don't minimize it's pull on an addict.

Although still very fragile, you both seem to still have great love and respect for one another which says volumes regarding hope for your relationship. Please take the necessary steps to thwart what can utilmately destroy it.

Much love,
Jo

<small>[ January 16, 2005, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

I've been sorting out some of the why's today... actually thinking instead of coming up with a fast excuse, you know? I'm still getting my mind around some of it.. but I have discovered that sometimes the best counsel is your own head...

Not that I hadn't considered counseling, in fact, we both have. It's not a good option for our finances at the moment, unfortunately.

I know I'll not make the same mistakes again, I just want to know the exact causes so I don't wind up in a similar mindset at some point in the future, affair or not. I was not in a good place with or without the involvement of someone else.

I love OAK very, very much, and I want all of this to work out. I think we'll be ok! I've even learned to be an optimist (most of the time...)
... it's a start!

FallingUp,

Across the board, addictions are addictions regardless if they are about drugs or alcohol or affairs or chat/chat rooms, it's the ADDICTIVE BEHAVIOR that needs addressed.

You can go to Alanon which is FREE.

Jo

Dear Failing and OAK!

You are very fortunate in that you both post here. MB and these boards are a true resource.

From observing other couples I will suggest that you discuss a set of "rules" so that you will not feel "dishonoured in front of others" from what the other write. At the same time there must be room for venting. Both will need that.

Some couples have decided not to read each other's posts unless invited. That may be an idea.

God's blessing to your recovery!

Frank, that is a heck of a good point, and something for us to discuss. Thanks for bringing it up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have to admit, I am loving loving LOVING this whole openness thing from her.

There is a selfish part of me that wishes it were aimed at me first instead of a messageboard, however excellent the board in question is. Given the circumstances of her A's, opening up to strangers over the internet(no offense to the fine folks here)in preference to doing so with me directly makes me feel a little nervous and defensive.

I will accept what she gives gladly, tho, regardless of where she chooses to give it.

-OAK

Oak,

See if you both can sign up for some phone counseling with Jennifer @ MB. Cerri and Steve are good also.

Will do you both a world of good. BTW, I like the progress I am seeing. After you both get settled a bit, I think we would like to see U 2 help out others who are trying to deal with these A sitches.

No pressure though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.