Its been a year to the day (Jan 17th...it was a Saturday last year) when I got the "let's talk" speech. Today is a day I will always remember. She was so calm about it all. I'll never forget. We were intimate earlier that morning, then two hours later she wants to talk. As we talk we both cry. But she continues to push thru like this is some sort of mission that she can't stop. I couldnt believe what was happening. I suspected something for about 2 months but thought I could get my mind together before all this happened. I found out that you can never be too prepared. I did some major LBs then. I told her how selfish she was & that she was acting very immature. OF course looking back, she was just following what ever other WS does. She brings up past events that justifies her actions. It was the classic blame game. You did this....that...and this is why I am done. Those things she was talking about were never talked about at the time they were happening...just weeks & months afterward. Now I see what was happening all along. She needed some sort of reasoning for this fog she was about to enter. The very thing our MC warned us about 10 months prior....storing up resentments....reared its ugly head. Some of the reasons sounded odd to me. "I want to go fishing, hunting, water skiing, exchange my car for a pickup truck.....you are not the country boy I fell in love with." That one hurt a lot. I didnt hear these requests for recreational activities until then. I found out....her "new fiend" had these same interests.

What a long road I have been on since then. After going thru 3 months of the fog with her...I gave up...I filed on her (April 14). I suppose she was playing 'cake-eater' since she wouldnt file herself. It was guilt too. I think a lot of it was guilt. How could she explain this to everyone....that she left to be with someone so she could go hunting, fishing, & horse riding with. I think she knows what people would have thought. It still hurts some. I still can't believe it.

Ive heard of the wait of being a year or so before getting involved with anyone else. It seems so weird that no one would touch with me a 10 foot pole right after all this happened (I undersatnd why...I was vulnerable) But I have seen women who start dating while they are still separated...why such a double standard?

How long has it been for everyone else? When did you get someone else in your life?

Hi Jeffrey...I'm 2.5 years past my D-Day and I would have to say with everyone it is different. In the beginning, I wanted so much to have someone, but recognized this as "revenge" and would surely regret it. Then I recognized my vulnerability and could not discern a married man from a single one, a liar from a truthful person. Then I decided to take a break and let nature take its course. And that is the very best advice I could give you. I believe and I may be a bit off here that it can take up to two years for an affair to "die" a natural death. So right now, it appears that you are divorcing a "foggy" spouse. But that does not mean because your spouse is foggy, you are as well. Your decision to move forward and date, as a divorced man, should be at your discretion, not an imposed timeframe. Each situation will yield a different timeframe. Many spouses do opt for "revenge" dating and ultimately hurt the poor unsuspecting partner in their new relationship.

Take your time to get reacquainted with yourself, learn to like yourself again, and learn to recognize when you are truly over your spouse and ready to meet a new person to share your life with. It is a horrible journey we BSs have to take in order to recovery from such intense hurt and betrayal, but we do emerge stronger individuals with a better grasp on establishing successful relationships.

Good Luck

Hi Jeffrey...I'm 2.5 years past my D-Day and I would have to say with everyone it is different. In the beginning, I wanted so much to have someone, but recognized this as "revenge" and would surely regret it. Then I recognized my vulnerability and could not discern a married man from a single one, a liar from a truthful person. Then I decided to take a break and let nature take its course. And that is the very best advice I could give you. I believe and I may be a bit off here that it can take up to two years for an affair to "die" a natural death. So right now, it appears that you are divorcing a "foggy" spouse. But that does not mean because your spouse is foggy, you are as well. Your decision to move forward and date, as a divorced man, should be at your discretion, not an imposed timeframe. Each situation will yield a different timeframe. Many spouses do opt for "revenge" dating and ultimately hurt the poor unsuspecting partner in their new relationship.

Take your time to get reacquainted with yourself, learn to like yourself again, and learn to recognize when you are truly over your spouse and ready to meet a new person to share your life with. It is a horrible journey we BSs have to take in order to recovery from such intense hurt and betrayal, but we do emerge stronger individuals with a better grasp on establishing successful relationships.

Good Luck

Hi karena
Thanks for listening & the advice. I have taken steps to better myself. Ive read Harleys books & some other books that are out there that are similar. I guess my thought process was & still is...why. Why all this had to happen. I know getting into the whole notion of analyzing the past is not very helpful....but I find myself doing that on occassion. I dont do it as much as I used to, but I still every once in a while think about it. I just wanted to know why. I guess I want to rule out in my mind that I 'pushed' her out. What I mean by that is...that I made life so miserable that she had no choice. All the evidence shows the opposite though. The late night drinking with her friends, finding innappropriate notes to other men, her withdrawal, etc, etc. I guess knowing the truth in black & white would finally lay all this to rest for me. But I dont know it all. Maybe I really do, but I was & still am in denial I suppose.

This may sound shallow, but I were to be involved wih someone that was at least as attractive as her...then I think I could forget about her entirely. That does sound shallow...I am sorry. All the other things about her...personality, attitude...I can easily forget. Its seeing that face & her body that I cant get out of my mind.
I know...there is much more to a person than that. I found out the hard way. I really did.

I am smack in the middle of a seperation, and my WH's affair, and my counselor actually SUGGESTED another man. He said, and I quote "What do you think about introducing another man into the picture?" I stopped going to that counselor. I couldn't see dragging an innocent person into this personal hell I've got going on. How would that make me any better than him?

I know that you are divorced, and it is up to you when you begin to date again. I would start very slowly, as I can read in your post that you are still in a ton of pain.

God Bless You Hon,

-Caren

Yeah I have been up & down with the pain. Some days I am ok...somedays I think about it. It will be hard to forget totally though. I've come along way.

Its been a year as I have stated since she gave me the 'talk'. A 2 weeks later, she wanted the separation....she told me this while we were in our marriage counselors ofice..in front of him. Her explanation...i was emotionally abusive & controlling. Ok..I got a really upset when I found the flirt notes she wrote. The day after the 'talk' I told her she was immature & wouldnt make a good mother. I guess thats what she meant by me being abusive.
Well we both started going to another counselor ...after the separation. She wouldnt go see the MC any more. This other counselor was a psych nurse. I had IC sessions with this C prior to all this happening for depression...started going in Sept '03. At the time we were in marriage counseling as well. Well as I mentioned the separation was early Feb & we both were seeing this counselor individually. In March or so, this psych counselor suggests to me to get online...to use eharmony.com. I was confused some. I told the counselor all about my suspicions about what was going on. The C told me that in the sessions with her, she never mentioned a OM. I felt that my WW was not telling all out of feeling guilt & shame.
Well I couldnt take it anymore..the going to a C & never getting anywhere, the C telling me to move on with my life, etc....so I filed.
I didnt want her filing on me. It was a revenge tactic of mine. She would have to explain things to people now.
Im not a emotionally abusive controlling person. All I wanted was for our marriage to be strong. I didnt want anything to make its way into that bubble & burst it from the inside. But thats exactly what happened.

I have now since gone on with my life. Everyone I have talked to has said that the WS will come around sometime in the future. I havent had any sort of contact since May of last year. Nothing. No Christmas card, B-day card, etc...nothing. Part of me wants some contact....I guess so as I can reject it. To reject her like she rejected me. If she ever does contact me in the future...I will reject her. I want her to know how it feels.

Jeffrey,

In short you want to "control" how this whole thing really ends don't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> IN that case you lose, big time. You will never get that control or satisfaction.

Jeffery it was a part of your life, but it is gone and over. So the ability to control it is gone into the mists of time. All you can do is learn from it, make your life better for it, and when you find the right woman make her life and yours the best you can.

Jeffery, what you want to be able to say to your ex in say 20 years is...THANK YOU. Yup, those are the words you are looking for. You can control how you react, how you learn, how you evolve, how happy your life is in the future and you learned it because of her. It was a lesson paid for with a lot of pain but you have paid in full so quit paying more. Let her go.

She may come back but if she has not learned anything, then I would suggest you don't want her back. If she has learned something then you won't have to reject her, she will KNOW what she did to you and how she hurt you.

I know she is in your mind. I know you dream about her. I know you know that she is a shallow person right now and I know you know she is NOT the person you want, but you hope she could be the person you need. She is not.

This is no longer about her, it is about you, and that you can and should CONTROL. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Yup, control is good, if it is self-control. So step back and really think about the notes, the flirting, the drinking, the times she ignored you, and of course "the talk" and how she behaved afterward.

It is time to move on. She has. As I said if she really grows and learns she will regret what she did without any help from you. If she does not, she will be cheating on this guy soon, because it seems from what you said she seeks reassurances of her beauty from men...lots of them.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Jeffrey, I understand about your attraction to your wife.

I have doubted myself many times because I was very attracted to my wife, and I've worried about being able to find another person who will have such a strong effect on me. I've also sweated what that said about me. But not any more. I admit it: physical attractiveness in a partner matters to me. Nothing wrong with that.

I'm starting to worry so much less about whether I'll ever find someone as attractive as my wife. Part of what's done that for me, in addition to time passing (though you're ahead of me there), has been going out a ton. I go out whenever I'm invited, and seeing all the women out there, beautiful in all their different ways, has started to free me from the spell of my wife's physical appeal. Vive le difference!

There are billions of women in the world, Jeffrey. Your wife is not likely to be the prettiest woman you'll know, or to have the best body, or whatever. I don't care what she looks like: you didn't win the "pretty lottery" with her - she's not the grand prize, dude.

I've been chatted up by several women in the last few months. I've never been a silver-tongued pickup artist. Not anywhere near it. But just by being out there I've met some stunning women. The last strange woman I had a conversation with looked like a Venezuelan beauty contestant. And I'll be damned, I think she liked me.

You'll do better, dude. If you can, get out there and see all there is to see.

GC

Hi Jeffrey,
Something else to think about...
From what I've read, the last time you had any contact with her was last May, right?
I think there's a pretty good chance that if you were to see her again, you might be surprised.

Like you, I always put my wife (she moved out 3+ months ago) up on a pedestal. A really nice, high, sturdy pedestal. For 24 years. I HOPE I forget this someday, but... just a few days before she moved out, I remember her coming home from work, and her physical beauty literally took my breath away (ok, as close as you can get). And one of things I thought about was -- I can't believe I'm losing this beautiful woman.
It felt shallow to even think something like that. But make no mistake, I loved her more than anything in the world, and not just for her looks!

My sister said to me: "yes, she's VERY VERY attractive, but she's NOT the most beautiful, drop-dead gorgeous creature on this planet. YOU think she is, because you LOVE HER so much."

Guess what? The last couple times I saw her (a week? or so ago and a few weeks before that), she wasn't as drop-dead gorgeous as I remember her being.... Why? Because my feelings for her were changing.

And... I agree with everything graycloud said. I haven't yet gotten "out there" a whole lot, but the times I have, well, yes... there ARE a LOT of women out there!

I'll stop there, before being kicked out of here and forever banned to the Shallow Man Forum <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I just wanted to say thanks for the responses.

A little bit of background.... I moved to another city (80 miles away...see each other on the weekends) for a job about 4 months before the 'talk' happened. The plan was for her to come & be with me. We discussed this with the MC at the time. I thought everything was on track.
Yep, I havent seen her actually since last mid February. She came by my place after she went to a job interview there in the city I stay. She was using fog talk to the max. I mentioned to her about the R, ...I told her if she gets the job, then maybe we could together. Her response..."just b/c I might get the job, doesnt mean anything". That hurt to hear that.
Well anyway I think some of the posters hit the nail on the head. She does seek reassurances about her beauty from men. That was the whole reason behind the flirting she had been doing. She admitted it made her feel good. That she never got that kind of attention in high school. So it is a deeper issue that went beyond our relationship. I felt at the time that there was nothing I could do. Helpless so to speak.

I have been out a lot. Ive gone out with several women. I learned a lot about myself. That you cant judge a book by its cover. Just b/c a woman is beautiful, doesnt mean she will be nice & faithful.

Jeffrey, I believe one variety of the cheatin' wife is a physically attractive woman who blossomed late.

Not having been admired during adolescence, being told they're beautiful seems an unusually important EN for these women. Some OM comes along and outdoes you at it, your marriage can be very vulnerable.

GC

You are very right about it being an EN for her. BUT I tried tell her all the time that she was. I think she needed it from other people...not just me. It is an issue she will have to deal with for awhile....its something she has dealt with for some time now. She was a late bloomer...she even mentioned that once. She was sheltered while growing up. She met me while she was 20 yrs old.....never been partying, drinking, etc. She told the counselor that she felt as though she was missing out on something in life. I dont know what that is though.... Maybe it is the partying & drinking that we never did do while we were together. I've thought about all that long & hard before. I really think that has played a huge part. For instance...In the Amish society, once a Child reaches a certain age (late teens I think)...they are given the chance to go out into the world & experince all that it has to offer. After having a glimpse of the world they must choose between it & whether to stay in the Amish culture. They are given the chance to see the 'world'. She really never got a chance to see it by herself without the responsibility to anyone. I think that played a big role.
You are right though....all it takes is for someone to come along & pose that question to them. I believe that happened to her. Peers asking her if she is happy with her life ....teasing her about her lack of worldliness, etc. It becomes a big snowball...getting bigger & harder to stop.
I realize now that I dont want to be with someone who doesnt know what they want out of life. Or what they want is drinking & partying.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jeffrey, I believe one variety of the cheatin' wife is a physically attractive woman who blossomed late.

Not having been admired during adolescence, being told they're beautiful seems an unusually important EN for these women. Some OM comes along and outdoes you at it, your marriage can be very vulnerable.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow... sorry, but that hit home.

In my case, I'm convinced that some level of depression/MLC came into play at the same time, which only made my WW more vulnerable.

I continue to be surprised (confused) that depression, MLC, character disorders, etc... all that fun stuff... seem to have no place here on the MB forums.

Regardless, gray hit the nail on the head for me.

We all married young, too... didn't we?

Yep, getting married too young was a factor.....even though I have been told that it shouldnt matter. There are people who have been married 20 years & then suddenly realize that they have been 'missing out' on life. So it think it depends on the individual. She didnt start changing until maybe 2-3 years into me knowing her. 2 years dating - 4.5 years married. It was the last year & a half that I started seeing a change in her. She started being withdrawn, a lot of independent behavior, attitude change (cursing), her interests were changing, etc. In the end she went thru the blame game of telling me it was my fault, but would throw in every once in a while that she was changing....that she was no longer the person that I knew years ago. I guess that is the sad part for me. To see someone that I know loved me once turn into someone I dont know. Its hard to forget the history we had. I have a hard time undrestanding why it all happened. I always told her that I loved her....would send little emails to her, make little cards, etc. I guess it really didnt meet what she really wanted.

A friend of mine told me something very wise about people in relationships. He said that one day she will come around & learn. She will go thru a 'humbling' experience. He mentioned that it usually takes a humbling experience to learn about what you had in life & what things are good for you. I think he is right. Most people have to go thru some sort of humbling experience to realize what is good for them in a relationship. You have to something to compare other experiences to. Then you realize that sometimes what you want isnt all ways good for you.
She is 28 right now. I suppose still living the party life...drinking...promiscuous...loud...vulgar...etc etc etc It used to make me cry to think that was what she wanted in life. The betrayal for a different lifestyle was so hard to accept & so sad . I know dont care. I know that life doesnt go anywhere.

Yes... some of us married young. Some women, especially women who married young, and women who had children early, experience this early MLC that some are calling the "age 30 transition".

There are changes in education, career, family status, etc., which cause them to question their early choices. They wonder if their marriage partner fits into the life they have begun to envision. Or they just want to have fun and don't want to be bothered.

I believe there may be real physiological changes (e.g. increased sex drive) that happen at this time that can also be a factor.

I think women having this kind of change are very vulnerable to affairs.

I don't really know what I'm talking about. Just piecing together a few tidbits I've collected.

GC

I think you are right on the money. An early MLC is definitely a good call on my situation. She turned 27 & realized she had 'missed-out" on a so much fun that these other people were telling her about. Im sure they were telling her all the time how much she was missing out on. I had a feeling this was going on. She exchanged her Kia Sportage SUV for a Black Cougar V6 sports car....I think b/c these people were teasing her about it. I tried telling the MC all about my feelings while this was going on....he just shrugged his shoulders or wouldnt even acknowledge what I was expressing about it all. I dont think he even confronted her about it all. He even defended her about having all these 'friends'. Her explanation...."Ive never had friends like this before...so its time I had some". If objected or showed any discourse to what he was doing...she would say that I was trying to control her. I became a controlling person to her. Looking back, I dont think anyone would have done anything different than I would have. They maybe would have gotten angrier at her. I let all of it happen. Had I just known about Harleys concepts then...maybe all this would have been avoided. The MC was no help at all...very useless.....very unwise about marriage & its boundaries.