It has become apparent to me that this is precisely what I have done.

I noticed, when Bob wrote about his Squid..that everything was just dandy on a day to day basis..but that S had yet to put some muscle into it..and saw my H and my home in his description.

The changes that come about when NC has been effective are so profound..that I think it is easy to miss the subtle yet equally profound difference between NC and Recovery.

I posted a thread a while ago, about my discomfort with Hs online games..and a little panic and wild speculation ensued..followed by some snooping. I turned up nothing..nada..zip. It looks like he just enjoys the *game* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .

So why then was/am I so bothered..so easily triggered?

I think because the recovery..as such..never took place. The changes he has made have come from clear mind restoration and desire to please me..but I do not yet trust his judgement..his boundaries..his perceptions because he hasn't done the work . He hasn't educated himself..has not sought answers..has not sought to change or to work through [thanks again Bob] and would honestly prefer to banish it to the void land of oops and just assume that it was a very bad *mistake* a good time gone bad..and never really learn from it.

This attitude makes it very difficult for me to work through it as well. I am hindered. He does not like carefully considered dialogue..he does not like being in a position of equity. He wants to dominate or submit depending on the issue. He wants submission to earn him..points?..to be used for dominance on other issues. What frightens me most..is that his general outlook has not changed.

Allow me to demonstrate how we differ.

Noodle<--- Assumes that the worst case scenario will happen and decides whether something is worthwhile..worth the cost..based on that assumption. Anything else is gravy. I am seldom disappointed or caught by suprise with regard to outcome although I am frequently told to "loosen up".

Mr Noodle<--- Assumes that the worst case scenario will not happen and decides whether something is worthwhile..worth the cost [if he has considered it at all]..based on the potential for pleasure. Aside from being just about the luckiest SOB on earth [he really should be dead from all of the risks he has taken] this position..to me..makes him just about the scariest.

It seems..looking at it this way..that he is basically an addiction waiting to happen. His approach to life is very much in agreement with how an addict might..and also..the distinctly underdeveloped superego [I know these are dated terms..but very easy for general shorthand description so bear with me] allows for great impulsivity, lack of forethought, lack of personal insight, and an inability to observe himself with any sense of detachment.

I get the distinct impression, that he is not aware of himself a good deal of the time.

When I visualize myself..I see a carefull spider. Easily balancing in position, with a thousand strands cast into the past, and a thousand projected into the future..using both as tension to negotiate the direction of the present.

When I visualize him..I see a man balanced on a knifes blade over an oubliette, with nothing to bind him in either direction, and unconscious of his precarious position.

I don't know what to do . How can he change this? In order to even desire such a change he would have to already have taken the first step of becoming more self conscious [and who would have guessed that would be a healthy thing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ] How can I live with it if he does not change it? I don't think I can. That, is in essence, the basis of the assumption..that once a cheat always a cheat..and that the WS has merely acted in accordance with their character or lack thereof.

Unless this very fundamental approach to life changes..I really do think he is only one "good time gone bad" away from the next ONS until one of them gets her hooks in and I get to read FIMs script, I'll just have wasted my life up until that time wringing my hands and trying to see around corners. Obvously that can not be accepted.

Thank you, Bob..although glum news..I think this really needed to be addressed. I think we are sitting in the same boat [although your timeframe boggles the mind and I freely admit it] and if you have any insight or suggestions re how to approach the issue without being too obscenely offensive, it would be gladly accepted.

I extend that offer to the rest of the board as well..I know that some of this sounds judgemental to a horrid degree..but I have to face the realities of just how ...organic?...these personal issues may be. How do you ask someone to change themselves fundamentally? Change the process by which they recieve and transmit information? can it be done at all?

This is heavy stuff, and I am disheartened by it. I had hoped that the many changes he had made were manifesting from precisely this..but I really doubt it..in fact I have literally no evidence to support it. I think the cancer has only become dormant, it has not been expunged, and as such..it is only a heartbeat away from becoming active at any moment without notice.

I welcome any 2x4 that can correct me if I am mistaken. I also welcome any advice re how to address these concerns and the concern re lack of "recovery" as specified by MB because he has only followed my lead and does not embrace MB in particular..and only embraces the concepts in theory if they don't get in his way or are not too inconvenient.

Noodle

Noodle,

Well written. I also enjoy BP's introspective postings.

I have not mistaken NC for recovery. My STBX has made some half baked attempts to fool me with a reconciliation that offers me nothing but the same thing I had before. She has made no effort, beyond words, to actually do anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but I do not yet trust his judgement..his boundaries..his perceptions because he hasn't done the work . He hasn't educated himself..has not sought answers..has not sought to change or to work through [thanks again Bob] and would honestly prefer to banish it to the void land of oops and just assume that it was a very bad *mistake* a good time gone bad..and never really learn from it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES .... My STBX wants to pretend like nothing ever happened, she dismisses it with a flip "eveyone makes mistakes," comment. With attitudes like that it is hard to trust that there won't be more "mistakes" because "everyone makes them". I explain to her that not everyone enters into adulturous affairs. She believes her internet pervert is a good man.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unless this very fundamental approach to life changes..I really do think he is only one "good time gone bad" away from the next affair .... I'll just have wasted my life up until that time wringing my hands and trying to see around corners. Obvously that can not be accepted </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle, really, it can't be accepted.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have resisted it. I have resisted my STBX offers of reconciliation based on her wanting to move on and pretend nothing happened. For at least 10 years prior to the affair if I objected to anything my STBX would always say, "big deal", "so what", "who cares", "get over it". I frequently complained of the way she invalidated me as a person. I fought against it.

I will not go back to that life again. I would have stayed there forever because of my committment to my vows, my family, and my beliefs. But she has freed me from that, I won't live like that again when I know there are better ways.

Good luck to you. I realized I can't make my STBX do anything. (she has not met any of the conditions of reconciliation, - other than words) She has to make choices - and live with them.

The whole real problem, is as you say. They seem devoid of enough self-awareness, or introspection, that they may not be capable of ever changing. That makes it sad not only for them, but for us as well.

<small>[ January 19, 2005, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:

When I visualize him..I see a man balanced on a knifes blade over an oubliette, with nothing to bind him in either direction, and unconscious of his precarious position.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AND, to be honest Noodle, you married him because his recklessness freed you up to remain the careful spider. You get the benifit of his fun creative personality .... he adds excitement to your life.

Your PICKED OUT this personality type to marry because his recklessness balances your steadyness.

People like your H make life exciting for the careful ones.

Pep

<small>[ January 19, 2005, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Noodle,

I couldn't agree with you more....and these are the very same issues that thwarted true recovery for me. In the simpliest of terms....my husband had to battle his sense of "entitlement" before I would ever lower my barriers and regain any modicrum of trust. Until he KNEW that the "rules apply to him", that he wasn't special, that he wasn't entitled, that he was as you say "one lucky sob" we got nowhere.

I can tell you when this pivotal event took place. As part of our recovery...because my husband is Catholic...one of the things that I contracted for (yes contracted...in writing...notarized) was that he had to go to confession. I remember that day. When he came out...he was ashen...visibly shaken. I asked what happened....and he told me that the priest would "not absolve him". I think that is the moment when he faced his rotten spirit and was humbled enough to look at the darkness that had replaced his intergrity as a man.

{Noodle}. I read your post and it is so close to what I am going through in my struggles that it scares the living heck out of me! I am not in recovery. We went through this almost 4 years ago with NC. THis time he has made the same evil choices with a sense of entitlement and self righteousness that is horrifying.

I am so torn between trying to distinguish between that "fog" and fatal character flaws that mean there is absolutely no hope of recovery.

I can't offer any advice only empathy. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:

he told me that the priest would "not absolve him". I think that is the moment when he faced his rotten spirit and was humbled enough to look at the darkness that had replaced his intergrity as a man. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WoW St*r ... this is a very important part of your story I never heard before!

How interesting... what happened next?

Sorry Noodle, I MUST threadjack.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:

When I visualize him..I see a man balanced on a knifes blade over an oubliette, with nothing to bind him in either direction, and unconscious of his precarious position.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AND, to be honest Noodle, you married him because his recklessness freed you up to remain the careful spider. You get the benifit of his fun creative personality .... he adds excitement to your life.

Your PICKED OUT this personality type to marry because his recklessness balances your steadyness.

People like your H make life exciting for the careful ones.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, I disagree with Pep..who'd have thunk it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Well, a small clarification and she'll probably recant <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I didn't choose him to spice up my life..actually..life is less spicy with him.

The variety of recklessness he embraces is not "fun" to me and frankly I am excluded from it.

It is an issue of historical honesty. I didn't know about it until after we married..really didn't know until several years after we married because he had been going through an *off* period during which he was not motivated to do these things..interact with the sort of people he had been drawn to previously

He was attracted to my sense of fun. I am a risk taker..but not blindly. I don't cry in my beer when things go badly if I knew that there was a good likelyhood that they would.

Recklessness is a giant turnoff to me, and always has been..because to be honest I equate it with stupidity. I know that isn't fair..but it is my honest knee jerk reaction and always has been.

I probably would not have dated him..let alone married him if he had been honest about his past.

Noodle

Noodle...Sorry to say some of us come to the same conclusions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The changes he has made have come from clear mind restoration and desire to please me..but I do not yet trust his judgement..his boundaries..his perceptions because he hasn't done the work </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Funny my WH says the same to ME. I have been bending over the PLAN A for 3 months. He can't understand why I am doing all this stuff when he hasn't done anything to deserve it. The only thing he can come up with is that I am trying to "lure " him back into my web.

Don't doubt his intentions. They may seem superficial at this time but perhaps that will change. He may still be in that learning process.
My H has done nothing, admits nothing, can't remember what his IC discusses with him, and sets a mental timer on our conversations. Will he ever change. I don't think so but if he made one step forward then I would think again.

Maybe you don't need to "loosen up" just find a little hope. As far as someone changing how they process information. I personally don't think that can be changed for some individuals whose behavior has been all about self or superego.
My husband is self centered but has no sense of self-introspection, becuase of course he is perfect.

Noodle are you saying that unless your H changes you want out?

Hi Noodle,

You have such a wonderful way with words... I always enjoy reading your posts!

My W's A's all happened on our first assignment overseas. I found out about one A and suspected another but was never able to confirm it. Neither of us dealt with the issues and basically acted as if they never happened. We tried to fix our M on our own and thought that we could 'improve' but we never really dealt with the deep issues that caused all of her A's.

Deep down, I always felt that something was missing from our M. Oh, I wasn't too worried about her straying again, but we didn't have that "deep connection" that you hear so much about.

Fast forward 10 years... I'm off active duty and working in a job that I love... life seems good, but still something is boiling just under the surface. That's when my W confessed to additional A's that all occurred on our first assignment overseas.

I was very gun-shy about trusting my W after her final confession... I too, thought, once a cheat, always a cheat... If she did it to me and hid it for 10 years, what's to stop her from doing it again?

My W agreed to MC because that was a condition that I set in order to agree to rebuild our M. She didn't want to go. She actually said that "we can do this ourselves"... We tried that before and it didn't work... so with much reluctance on her part, we started MC.

Once we were in MC, we both learned new ways to interact with each other and how to work through all of the pain and hurt of betrayal. For me, one of the biggest eye openers was how our MC challenged ME in how I interacted with my W. I went into MC thinking "Good, now someone is finally going to validate how horribly my W treated me."

I learned that many of my W's actions or lack of action, was tied directly to my actions... This wasn't easy stuff. After all, SHE's the one that had all of the A's!

It took me a good year and a half (including one deployment to Kosovo) to finally "get it"... Once I was able to provide a safe place for my W, she started opening up. All of my "desires" for her to start 'working' on the M with me started happening. She started becoming the W that I knew God had given me when we first said "I do."

We're now to a point where we can talk about the past w/o dragging up all of the old hurt and pain. We've both learned how important it is for us to protect our M and we don't take each other's needs for granted anymore.

So for us, MC was what started us out on our path to rebuilding our M... Without MC, I know that we wouldn't be where we are today.

Semper Fi,
RIF

Noodle,

What an interesting post,

My ideas - people don't change unless they are forced to and even then they don't fundamentally change their essence - nor should they try. When people change their behavior because they perceive that their behavior is not working, they invariably take the shortest route to the solution, in the same way that lightning finds the shortest route to ground. This is not wrong; it just is.

The dynamics of the affair is much the same I believe. I want my needs to be met; my spouse is not meeting them, conclusion: 'we just don't click anymore'. Oh look! Here is someone who seems to know what I need without me even having to make an effort to describe my needs; conclusion: we must be soulmates.

I agree with Pep, we are attracted to and come to love someone because of who they are. That cannot be changed and even if it could, we would probably not find them attractive. But it is not unreasonable to expect a person to change their behavior if it causes us to be unhappy.

My wife always tells me, 'I can't change who I am" and I respond, "You, I love; it's your behavior that I have a problem with."

So, in order for recovery to occur, a person must demonstrate that their behavior has changed and will not revert. This may be an ongoing process. If it appears that the WS is reverting to their old ways, then they need to be confronted. If they do not take this confrontation seriously then a more serious strategy, I believe, is in order.

<small>[ January 19, 2005, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: legato ]</small>

Noodle,

I regards to Pep's quote

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AND, to be honest Noodle, you married him because his recklessness freed you up to remain the careful spider. You get the benifit of his fun creative personality .... he adds excitement to your life.

Your PICKED OUT this personality type to marry because his recklessness balances your steadyness.

People like your H make life exciting for the careful ones </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It may not be true in your case but , that exact thought has crossed my mind many times over the course of my M and especially after D day. It is a very well used theme(pardon me for the pc incorrect roles ) in literature and the theater to explore the hysterical/histrionic/BPD female with the quiet, taciturn, enduring male. This union is advantageous for BOTH if recognized by the individuals involved.

Pep,

What happened after? Well, a period of deep depression for him. He left the church for probably a year...just couldn't face his God I guess. Eventually, as part of the recovery he went back....we had moved by this time...so different priest...told the story and went through a process of "cleansing" through the church and was eventually absolved. I think that it was so shocking for him because he was used to "do two hail mary's and five rosaries" and he'd never actually believed is soul was in peril. I tell ya what....I could kiss the feet of that priest!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm sad today. Today I feel that we have only delayed the inevitable. That he will only ever do the minimum... and that only in the short term.

Today I wonder if I ought to have been less reasonable..less caring..less compassionate, and just left him on Dday. Actually, I wonder if I should have left him before Dday.

I'd say this is all a very sure indicator that my bank is running a little short. That he isn't pulling his load, and that we have yet another "discussion" initiated by me and tolerated [at best] by him on the horizon.

Trouble is..I'm just not sure what to say. I feel I have run out of words. I'm tired of holding his hand through this..supporting him..and clearing the path and laying the tracks so that I can push the train down the road.

It's all wrong..not the right progression. I think I have made things too safe. I wonder if he does feel he has reached the brass ring because our day to day is not filled with strife. It is filled with thoughts I can't express freely. It is filled with me learning and seeking and reaching and stretching and abandoning my comfort zone...and him profitting from this, and quite enjoying it..and responding well to it..but never in kind.

I really don't know what to do next. I need depth. I need real connection. I don't think there is anything else that I can do. I think it is time for him to act or admit he is not willing..not truly eager to. Or that he is scared..or that he doesn't know what to do either..or something that does not involve skipping along singing Tra-la-la while the bricks come down around our ears.

Blarg.

Noodle

Noodle

Only just saw this.

Very interesting and sad.

But I will say, Squid is starting to roll her sleeves up now and work on US. I think she needed to feel safe first.

She asked this lunchtime "What do you need from a good wife, baby? Help me ".

I think her reading HN/HN and Torn Asunder chapters while I was away made a big difference. She realises there is work to do now.

Its been frickin' hard doing this alone for six months but she's really sarting to get stuck in now.

We'll see how it progresses.
When Orchid says the Ws must do more, I agree but my own WS wasn't capable of doing more until now, four months into NC.

Affairs , particularly class 2 affairs really fook up the heads of WS.

All blessings

Have you read Dr. Laura's book "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands"?

I have always desired more depth...'connection'. I ask for his deepest thoughts..feelings. He doesn't get it...some men just aren't into expressing themselves in that way or even focusing on any feelings. It can be frustrating when we read here, at MB, many thoughtful men who express themselves so well.

I have thought many of the thoughts you expressed in your first post on this thread. It is 2 yrs since the last D-day. I do want to believe he really gets it this time. Most of the time I think he does. There is still a part of me that doesn't trust his character and ability to resist temptation in the long run. At the slightest deviation of schedule or ability to reach him I tend to start to think negative thoughts.

Most of the time we are doing great together and I feel pretty secure.

SF is fewer and farther between...which also concerns me...in the long run.

You have the added stress of preparing yourself emotionally for your H to be gone for months as of March. I do not envy that.

Trix,

We have SF pretty frequently..but it has lost its sparkle for me. It's pretty much just recreational fun since his A. Ackward a bit too. I do absolutely trigger during sex. Every time. It doesn't affect me as badly as it did since I have forgiven him..but it hasn't gone away either. In a lot of ways I have lost my desire for him. Not my desire to desire him though.

I want to work through these issues.

The trouble is..that he doisn't seem to *get* that there is something to *get*. I must be partially responsible for this..I must be failing to communicate my need.

I'm disappointed though. I wish he didn't need to be led by me always. No one had to tell me that there was work to be done, why is he exempt from taking responsibility and initiative? The answer of course, is that he isn't. Furthermore, if I am not satisfied it is my job to give him that information..to give him at least the opportunity to correct anything that may need correcting.

I'm just not sure how to go about it.

Noodle

Noodle, you do have a wonderful way of expressing yourself. You obviously are a very deep thinker. You are very aware of both your thoughts and your feelings. I identify with you because I am that way too. I really believe that it is through awareness that we can make the best possible choices. Let's face it. When people are in As they are not only unaware, but they are making the worst possible choices. Unfortunately choices that not only shatter the BS's life, but impact the lives of their children, if they have any. An aware person wouldn't make such destructive choices.

I just posted over on recovery something that I read on the Dear Peggy site. She said in order to recover the FWS needs to (1) drop the OP and have NC. (2) Be totally honest and answer any questions the BS needs answered. (3) Be totally committed to the M and to supporting the BS through the ups and downs of recovery. I hope I remembered that correctly.

I wrote that my H has done 1 and 2 pretty well, but is now faltering on #3. It's been a year and this has triggered my pain because of remembering where I was this time last year. As a result we have had several very intense conversations and a few meltdowns by moi. Nothing like the nuclear variety after d-day. H is at the point that he wants to move on. Actually said recntly "Life is too short." My response, "Yes it is. And 9 months of my life were taken away from me during your A. Another 12 months have been spent trying to process through your intense withdrawal and my pain. And it will take 2 ot 5 yrs. to recover from this." Basic message, please don't talk to me about life being short. I feel robbed right now.

I do feel that my H, who started IC immediately, has done some very good work in understanding himself. I think he is very aware of how he didn't know what his weaknesses were and so how he didn't protect them. This is where I see his lack of awareness surfacing. My LB$ has been slowly dipping the past several months. Certain top ENs of mine are not being met in order to really help me feel loved. I think this has also led to my meltdowns. I have tried to explain this to him. That the way he is showing his love is nice, but it's not doing it for me. Now, after a conversation we had Sunday he has gone back to the old behavior of, if feelings are too intense for him he withdraws. Being that I'm very aware of the damage this does to me, especially because he cut me off for 9 months emotionally and physically, I asked him Monday to please not do this. His response was that my behavior put him back. OK, maybe I screwed up. I will accept that. I then told him that he has a choice of how he behaves and I'm asking him not to withdraw. Still didn't get it. So here we are 3 days later. All cuddling in bed has stopped. We aren't holding hands anymore. He's not kissing me when he comes home from work. He is making no effort to reconnect because HE is the injured party here. Our 3 hr. intense conversation was far worse than his 9 month A in his eyes.

So what's my point? If he had any awareness of how this behavior of his puts me back, would he do it? If he is aware and he does it anyway, then where is the love? Is recovery dependent on me continuing to just fill his LB$ and be perfect? Or is he willing to do step #3, and be committed enough to stick with me through the ups and downs of recovery? I know that I am way too selfish to Plan A indefinitely. Right now I can't even Plan A at all.

Sorry Noodle if I went off on my own tangent. I said to myself this time that I was not going to reach out to him to get us talking again. Another point I identified with you on. I was going to see just how long he can keep up the withdrawal. I know he's miserable. It's self-inflicted misery. But I realize I'm "F"ing miserable, and I swore after this A I would not live like this. So I plan on writing him a letter today laying it out there. I'm not going to do this recovery alone.

I feel for you. It's a sad place to be after we have done so much work after the A to realize our Ss just might not have what it takes to work on real recovery. Here's hoping that both of our Hs come through for us in the end. CV

We did do most of the followup work from the MB weekend. We read 'Love Busters' together and listened to the tapes. We have made it through a little more than half of HNHN together...books and tapes. I still want to finish them and he is willing too....it is just making the time.

It may help, if you haven't done so, to work through MB materials together. Maybe he will better able to hear 'it' from Willard Harley himself.

I agree with all the others about you having a way with words. Wish I had that gift.