There is never a doubt that most BS love their WS.
But during all this healing. Or attempts at healing. During the set backs. Amid the outbursts that are unavoidable. A BS is left asking What about my pain, my hurt, my feelings?
Can I really ever forgive my WS? Can I get past what this person has done to me.

As much as I love them, they have hurt me terribly. I don't want revenge, I don't want their apologies any longer. I just want to know what I am in their eyes. What my worth is.
Do I measure up as a person. For all my failings, am I the person you really want to be with?

See I know, where my wife is. I just don't know why. I don't know if I should still be trying. She is showing me she wants to remain married.

Now I'm in a situation, where I can relax slightly. Now, I get to see what I want. And I'm scared. I'm really scared I don't have it in me to continue on.

I acted really badly to her yesterday on the phone. She told me she was scared of me.

That shocked the daylights out of me.

She told me she is hurt and scared from her A.

She feels she's been hung out to dry.

That shocked me.

In many respects I've deserted her. Emotionally.
I still care for her needs physically.

She also told me, I've become very controlling. That I will only allow her to be happy with me, through me.

That shocked me.

Those things really made me wonder if I should hang it up. I have never threatend my wife. Even yesterday. I was just angry...for the first time I left some of my anger slip out. Rather than keep it in. I didn't in any way threaten her. But, she felt scared from my anger.

I don't know if our relationship has anything any longer. Her trust of me is missing.
That has been there all along. Even when she was very foggy, she knew I was there for her. There to catch her if she fell.

I see her resovle and my own crumbling. Slipping away. That scares me. I want all this to work out.
I talk to her every day. But it seems this is new. Yes, I'm a bit controlling. I don't want to get hurt. So I try to control the situation. But i don't keep her under lock and key.

How do I show her that I don't want to control her, only protect myself from being hurt.

Show her I want to make her happy, but, she can find happiness from other places than me. That she is free.

DD

Of course you are angry.

But she needs to understand that this A can't be shrugged off with a "I'm sorry for what I did..." type of thing and life resume's just as it did before.

It is going to take a pile of work by both you and your WS in order to recover from this. She is going to have to be 100% committed to helping you get through your pain. I'm sure she also has a lot of her own issues to deal with as a WS (which you'll have to help her deal with) but she also has to help you deal with your issues.

If your not already in MC I think it would be advisable to get the both you in there and see if you can begin repairing all the hurt and damage from the A.

Just my 2 cents,

Miker

DD,

I'm not familiar with your total situation so I may be way off base here, but I'm going to put it out there anyway.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, I get to see what I want. And I'm scared. I'm really scared I don't have it in me to continue on.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can really appreciate this statement. I don't know if you can get past what your WW has done to you. Does she know what she did? Does she acknowledge it? Does she take ownership of her actions, show remorse? If so, was it sincere, or just smoke? Would this help you get past what she's done?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She told me she is hurt and scared from her A.

She feels she's been hung out to dry.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She choose the affair. It didn't "just happen." I find it odd that she feels hung out to dry ... when it was her who abandoned her marriage vows. Her who choose to the affair. DDad you were hung out to dry.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She also told me, I've become very controlling.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does she say that because you have set out some boundries? Are the boundries you set reasonable? My own experience, and my experience from reading on here suggests that WS are controlling. If you ask anything of her you are "controlling." DDad, ask her in what ways you are controlling. I would suggest that your lack of boundries, and perhaps her lack of accountability enabled her A.


Perhaps DDad, it is you who are being manipulated. She may be trying to illicit some guilty feeling on your part as a way of stretching your boundries.


Again, I have to say. I'm not really familiar with your situation. I may be totally off base, and if I am I apologize to you and your WW.

TJ

<small>[ January 19, 2005, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

DD, I filled up reading your first couple of paragraphs. I have never seen my own feelings better articulated by someone I don't know.

I do not know today if I can get past the betrayal, but I CAN look at truthful FBS on here who say that times spent doing the right things heals most wounds. In the same way that you could not imagine on D-day feeling as confident as you are NOW in a years time you will be life-transformed. You and ME have to believe that or we'd give up.

Thanks to my FWS friends and glimpses from Squid, I am begining to se the turmoil that FWS go through once withdrawal is over. Its terrible DD. Imagine feeling as bad as WE do but having CAUSED that much pain in one who loves you, and whom you increasingley realise , you STILL love.

How could you face yourself? Would YOU feel able to help deal with their wounds, pain and hurt? Or would you be REELING at the insult both to yourself, to your love and to God ?

The timing is different too DD. On D-day when you and I are destroyed with one sweep of Satan;s sword, WS are actually pretty upbeat and confident. After all they have a future with OP etc etc.

Over time, BS get strong and learn to do eh right thing WHILE FWS castle of affair-y dust crumbles.

Byteh time you and I are doing 'ok' and can project ourselves into a happy future without too much trouble, our FWS look down and realise what they have done. They have taken innocent love from BS and spat it in the face of God. That they never meant to doesn't matter, they know they did.

So in truth DD I think that around the time when we BS are strong enough to start noticing how unfair the effort balance is, our FWS need us more desperately than any time in their life, before or after.

There will be a time when your FWW will be able to help with your healing - most do, read teh stories here - but foirst you must help her get emotionally and spiritually strong enough to help you. She cannot help you while she is this broken.For the longest time I have wondered if Squid truly knows the damage she did me.I am coming to realise that she suspects but cannot look into the abyss yet.

Imagine were your roles reverse DD - hat you had slaughtered the innocence and love of a prson who loes you in a way that makes God and every decent person wince, would YOU be able to discuss it in personal therapy?

Just my example DD, not advice as I am not so far ahead of you in recovery. I reckoned it was time to give DD, selflessly. Invest my love and protection greatly


And she has repaid my investment richly - she feels 'safe' ( she genuinely thought with Plan A I was just softneing her up to kick her undeserving butt on the street for a long time !) and is starting to work on ME. She has done a little homework reading A and HNHN chapters, she has started doing small needless kindnesses for me. She sends me lovely TXT messages to let me know how she feels while I am away.

THATS How I showed Squid that I want to be with her, that I love her but that I will not shackle her to me. And we're doing pretty good.

All blessings DD.

DD,--

thanks for starting this post. that is exactly how i have been feeling too. asking myself those very questions. when this first started, i told my FWW that i was scared to death to be alone. i don't feel that way anymore. i realize i have been lonely and alone for some time now.
i think i just have to keep trying, i love her to much to quit now. but if she wants to end it, i will be o.k.
i don't think i could have worded your questions any better, and i am looking forward to veteran responses.

Bob Pure,

nice response, and as always ,you have given me hope. thanks for taking the time to shareyour input with us.

arjdad

Bob, You say Squid thought you were softening her up with Plan A. My WH is also doubting my intentions. Do you keep on with Plan A? How do you put that insecurity that the WS has at rest?
What did it take for Squid to believe your heart was true and you were there for the long haul?

Hi guys,

I don't know how to even talk about this.

In some ways my situation is much easier than you guys have faced. In some ways it's worse.

OM has been in my W's mind during our entire 6-year marriage. A month before we married, she was calling him. A month after we married, she was calling him. Even if she isn't contacting him now (which I don't know), she still uses him to hurt me. She still tells me that if she stays married to me she is "settling".

So, I say my brave things ... that I'm going to be OK - that if we D, I have options. I can live alone and be happy - or, I could easily find a woman who would treat me better....

but...

She really has me convinced that I am truely not a human being. I'm am some kind of subhuman thing that nobody can love - but only perhaps pity. That's the agonizing thought.

I have no friends. I'm very lonely.

Oh yeah, you might think I'm fishing... and sure enough 3 or 4 will post after me that I should not think that - that it is not true - that I'm a fine man etc. etc. But, maybe you guys will understand... that as much as I can rationally say that it is not true - still, my heart half-believes it.

So, almost every day she continues to insult me. I care about my child - and I know a D would hurt her - and I would miss her. Truely, if I am honest, there are only two things that give me pleasure in life right now.

The first is my daughter.
The second (sorry to say) is the stock market.

The market is down. I'm OK with that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Can I survive without my child? Oh yes, many posters will say that of course I can survive - that I will still be her dad - and will surely get "visitation" - and can still have a close relationship with her. Yeah, right.

The high point of my day is driving into the garage and watching the kitchen door open, and my little girl comes out with a huge smile and shouts hello Papa!.

I hate the way my W treats me, but maybe I just have to put up my shields and wall her out - and save all my emotional connection for my child.

Sorry, what were you guys talking about?

-AD

JCMH, my only answer is CONSISTENCY. I have come to believe that WS and recent FWS only have peripheral vision. Whetever they stare at is filtered by the fog caused by the emotional turmoil at play. However, PERIPHERAL vision is perfect.
If we BS make grand gestures the SUSPICION filter is engaged "why is he being nice to someone who fricked him over ,ike a demon?"

But if you just PLAN A yo'sef - make EN-meeting changes and effect them all the time, FWS starts to notice over time and is not so suspicious.

Squid told me that she thought I was gesturing till the third months of 'plan A' bob.

I believe my consistency and avoidance of overblown gestures ( and the sulking that inevitably occurs when the big gestures are not met with tears of remorse and a little house on the prairie ending) allows FWS to build themselves a PLATFORM that they can find their feet on. From there, harder stuff can be attempted. Thats where we are now, Squid's on a safe platform.

Just my thoughts on it.

All blessings.

AD...Yes you are right we will all tell you not to feel that way, but I know how you feel all too well. I don't feel that way about myself because I am smart, attractive, get lots of compliments at work, am a great Mom....and after spending two seconds with my WH I am nothing. Invisible...
My DD's see how he treats me, they hate that I am so sad, they want me to leave him. Fortunately for me I am a woman and will likely get custody.

But I know in my heart that if there is not some sort of major break through on his part, I will walk and never look back. You will get to the point where you will not be able to stay.

My FWW just asked me yesterday why I continue to want to stay with her. She asked me "Don't you have any self-respect?" It just kinda hit me now that she may look at me not as being strong, for trying to hold this family together, but as weak and needy that I would let someone walk all over me. And that is someone she doesn't want to be with. When she said that to me, I didn't want to LB and refrained from telling her that my self respect was fine, it was hers that was lacking. I can look in the mirror and feel OK about it. FWW, how can she respect herself after betraying her vows to me, the commitment to our family, etc? I just don't get it.

Especially BH's, why do some people see us as weak and needy while others can see us as being very strong in enduring all this for our WW's and family?

<small>[ January 19, 2005, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

DD,

I remember your situation from a few weeks ago. At least you seem to be feeling a bit better now.

Sorry I didn't address your situation in my first post on this thread.

You cannot completely control your reactions to your W's actions. You can't stop feeling hurt. But, I think you can go forward. Dispite what I have written, I continue to try to please my w - and I only have my walls half-way up.

She has told me what her EN's are. I think I can be what she wants to a far greater degree than I am right now. But... (we just talked about this yesterday) ... it is very hard to work and work and work to become the H she desires and needs - with very little encouragment along the way.

I am encouraged by remembering the time after she returned from abroad last summer.

Last summer, she took our daughter and went to visit her parents for 4 weeks (in Europe). When she came home, it was great!. She told me that she realized that she needs me. She was good to me. SF returned to a more normal frequency. But... the good vibes faded away after a couple of months.

I think I'll send her off again in the Spring - just so she can miss me while she's gone over there. Of course, my daughter missed me too - and I'd rather go with them for that reason. I think if I go, W will constantly be annoyed with me - because her parents will pay attention to me (she wants all the attention for herself) - and because she will have to translate for me. (My Russian is poor, but I can get by if I need to). Leaving me at home, means we elliminate that negative, and replace it with the positve of her missing me. But at what price? Do we plan to spend a month apart every year - just so she can miss me and value me for a few weeks after her return?

-AD

I see my wife beginning to trust that it's not a trick.
I have to admitt I've never done plan A. I was totally devastated. Too messed up to do anything logical.
I never, or almost never was disrespectful to her. I never faltered on my commitment to our marriage.
I never gave up on her.

While I was (and still am a bit) very clingy and needy. Even while she was still in contact with OM. She finally sees I am still in the marriage.

She doesn't know why I stayed. To her that is the part that doesn't make sense. Why would I want her now.
Yes, and WS or FWS does have to realize and accept their own guilt. Or responsability.
I have become more willing to help my wife through her tough times when she talks to me, when I know she is working on us.

She drove me out of my tree waiting for her to see OM used her. Waiting. Not bad mouthing OM. Not telling her that I was better than he. Not telling her I had more to offer (which I do in 1000 ways...and she tells me).

BUT!

I do feel trod upon. And yes Bob, there will be a time for me to grieve, or maybe I've been doing it.
I'm pretty sure I grieved my butt off for quite a while now. I may not be done. I just wonder....
Is she settling for me. Even if she tells me, "No." Or even if I know better.

I find myself saying I'm sorry a lot. Sorry for my outbursts. Some of which hurt her. Some of which are excessive. In some respects, I feel more concerned about her feelings than my own.
Sad state of affairs....(okay, poor choice of words).
I just want to see the light at the end of the tunnel. To know that there is an end to this. To know, for myself, not from veterans, that this "Will" be better. That I will understand, I will forgive, that she will have moved on.

I don't trust her still. That makes her angry.
Maybe she is testing my bounderies. I don't think so.
It's hard to get her to understand that trust isn't earned overnight.

It's hard to express to her that my pain is ever present.

There is never a doubt that most BS love their WS.

I am in agreement 100%. Can we say the same thing about WS? Sadly they did not love us while they were away----- big blow to our self worth----- don’t you think?

Now WS say they they love. They also said it to OP---- not very reassuring! All we can do is wait and see their actions.


A BS is left asking What about my pain, my hurt, my feelings?
Can I really ever forgive my WS? Can I get past what this person has done to me.

I understand this is typical after WS has decided to stay in the marriage. Most BS doubt themselves---- they ask if this is what they really want out of marriage.

As much as I love them, they have hurt me terribly. I don't want revenge, I don't want their apologies any longer. I just want to know what I am in their eyes. What my worth is.
Do I measure up as a person. For all my failings, am I the person you really want to be with?

Very true.

Even in my scenario where OM is worthless and undesirable (for most women) one still wonders if the WW stays out of convenience or for the sake of the children. Very well said.

See I know, where my wife is. I just don't know why. I don't know if I should still be trying. She is showing me she wants to remain married.

Very typical reaction! But guess what? The WW felt the same way when she was in withdrawal. She was telling herself I better stay in the marriage even though my heart is with OM---- this is the right thing to do. If you want the marriage to survive you better keep trying till you pass the stage of “Is this what I really want?” I am sure many WWs have internal debates about the decision to stay in the marriage. So is not surprising if you have these debates.

Now I'm in a situation, where I can relax slightly. Now, I get to see what I want. And I'm scared. I'm really scared I don't have it in me to continue on.

Very disheartening---- I agree.

This is what I did.

I imagined myself living the single life and chasing other women for 2-3 years to then realize that the love of my life was and will always be my wife (despite everything she did to me). In the end divorce would be worse and I would only consider it if your wife is truly evil and re-starts the affair. In that case your hand is forced, you are out of there, and you eventually realize WW was not the love of your life.


Regarding self worth:

Understand that many WWs freely accept the H is a better man than the OM. It must be very hard for the WW to internally accept she caused so much pain and destruction for a man that was not worth it. What do you think that does to their already low self-esteem? How do you think they will view OM when they realize this man had so little concern for them that he was willing to make them have sleazy sex in dark cheap motel rooms and was willing to cowardly operate in the dark with fear of being caught by the husband? Not very romantic or glamorous----not the type of thing a real man would do----- don’t you think? Before you feel so bad about your own worth realize that in the end you did not do anything wrong and that you will eventually heal. Your integrity is intact and you will regain your self-respect--- I promise.

<small>[ January 19, 2005, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

It's hard to express to her that my pain is ever present.

DD I learned that Squid couldn't process my pain. She has a self-preservation instinct that will not allow her to process it YET. If your FWW has the same it is not SPITE or lack of care that prevents her from coo-ing and clucking about YOUR pain its the terrifying guilt that stops her looking into the abyss.

Squid is only NOW starting to acknowledge the insult she caused me - and only that because she now feels confident enough in my sustained love for her to start to look at such.

I am sorry DD, but once again you must stuff you rneeds and feelings largely while your FWS recovers to a point of being able to process such huge guilt.

No its not fair, and its not right, but as a wise person says "do you want to be right or do you want to be married?".

Your (our) time will come when FWS invest in US , but that usually only comes after huge investments from US.

All precedent recovered stories on here say that it pays off, and that all BS feel just like you do ( and I do) from time to time.

Only you know if you are up for the long haul with no guarantees.

I am. I have invested too much to give up yet.

All blessings

Dalton,

Your thread intrigued me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Your post drew in my mind 2 magnets with opposite sides facing each other which creates a force which pushes it apart instead of together.

My question to you and the other BS H's posting here is why are you scared? You have done your plan A, you know your limits, boundaries and emotional needs.

Why are you subjecting yourself to a self imposed interrogation? BTW, WS' of both genders try to use guilt to the BS even in recovery and are still highly successful.

That is NOT good success. Only when the BS makes recovery true on their end then see how the WS reacts can recovery start. It starts with the personal recovery of the BS 1st. Then the WS chimes in. When this happens, many a BS choose to want to take control of the recovery. That's like giving into a spoiled child. Never letting them fend for themselves. It is sooo easy for a WS to make life difficult for a BS. The BS almost tempts the WS with their helpful and cheerful attitude.

BS' internal reaction appears t/b one of protest and the frustration plus the anger creeps into the recovery because the BS is angry the WS isn't pulling his/her fair share.

Why? Because the BS is still working toooo hard.

Reality says that when the WS puts forth the effort, recovery in the M is quicker and longer lasting. When the BS carries the brunt of it, recovery is often false.

Which one do you want?

JMHO,
L.

It sure is nice to see that the BS's can get stronger with time. This A stuff really bites, but if you can use it to better oneself, that is the payoff. Of course I would love to see all the M's here succeed and flourish, like Bob's and many others seem to be, but sometimes that just doesn't happen, so then the BS is left with hopefully the better person that they have become.

Native

Orchid,

I like the magnet analogy. Being an electrical engineer, anything remotly physics related just clicks.
I can picture two people in the manner of two magents. Trying to get closer, yet the harder they try the more they push each other away.
UNTIL They "turn" things around!
Very Interesting!!!!!

As for turning things around and Plan A.
I was not able to, in the early stages, even do plan A. I wasn't physically, or mentally strong enough. Sorry to all of you who were! But I wasn't

Do I know what my limits are? yes
My boundaries. Yup! Them too.

My emotional needs?
Well, there's the rub!
Do I wait for WS to meet them!? Oh, I can tell her. I can show her. I don't expect her to read my mind.
You see telling a WS your EN doesn't jive with plan A! Never has IMHO. WS must want to meet your EN's. They can never do that until after withdrawal is over, fog has lifted. At that point recovery is begun, Plan A should become second nature....
I don't claim to understand this stuff totally. I do try!

Recovery Starts with The BS?
Okay, I've read SAA. Maybe I need to again.
I've read enough to understand that to make things work you must first start from within.
That is true of the BS and the WS isn't it?
WS must have some sort of catharsis.

The BS works hard because they have to! They must! They can generally be the only thing hold the marriage together. The WS if left to their own devices will further tear the marriage to shreds. Plan A, or Plan B!
Can a WS wake up! Yes!

I guess I just don't understand, LOOKING BACK over the past 5 months, how a person who is so deeply hurt, so deeply in love with WS, and trying to stop their world from crumbling could possibly "detach" themselves from the situation so much as to do a text book Plan A.
That is my opinion! I read that others have done so. I tip my hat to these people.
I was so hurt I couldn't see anything but pain.


Orchid, my long drawn out point?
A BS after plan A (the MB case), or after their emotions settle down (my case), in the end want to make their marrige work.

They must use their introspection to find who they are. They must know what they want. They DO!!!!!! need to know what WS intentions are.
If my wife was to hurt me in this manner again....after she knows the pain I've been through, our marriage would be over.

But even if my wife with all her heart is in our marriage. I have to "find" myself.
Have I invested time and effort into my marriage? YES! Do I want to throw that away? NO!
Do I love my wife? YES!!!

This A has killed my self-esteem. I worry if I am "big" enough for these things.

It is a question most BS must ask themselves.

It does all boil down to the trust we must have for our WS.


I am a work in progress!! So, make your 2x4's tooth picks and jab me don't slug me!!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Reality says that when the WS puts forth the effort, recovery in the M is quicker and longer lasting. When the BS carries the brunt of it, recovery is often false.
Which one do you want?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is so true.

Ten hours of my effort equals one minute of my wife's efforts. In the end the WS holds the key.

DD
This A has killed my self-esteem. I worry if I am "big" enough for these things.


Squid affair killed MY self esteem too, but my repsonse TO it has made me more proud of , and comfortable in my manhood than ever in my life.

Seriously...now I know I can be strong enough to be patient, gentle and supportive of an adult who hates and betrays me I truly know the power of 'passive resistance'.

I FEEL like a knight now, being what my family needs against all odds. And its true, not a 'feel good' visualisation.

To be perfectly honest my self esteem was totally down the toliet and didn't start to come back until we were physically separated.

If you have strength to remain in the same home and do a plan A then I think you have better success and saving the marriage but in my case I needed to heal myself a bit before I could even think about us.

Unfortunately I've decided I'm better off on my own now that we're apart and wouldn't reconcile even if WW decided she wanted that. I think that's the risk you take if you separate, but in my opinion it definitely is better to rebuild BS's self esteem.

I applaud BS's like Bob who could fight it out in the trenches and survive. They are true role models for a BS.

Miker