TT your i'ville post deserves a non-I'ville style reply ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Bob, you like to remind us/yourself of what an ugly old git Squid's OM was, but it might be even worse if he was drop dead gorgeous hot and handsome. You KNOW this was not about looks. It's about attention. He had her full, undivided attention and made her feel special at a time when, perhaps, she was feeling taken for granted. I am glad that giving her the ring has made you so happy but I still feel it was too soon. I'm so glad you are not getting the ring blessed just yet. IMHO (very humble) I feel there is a danger of you rushing your recovery and Squid thinking that she's got her ring, she's got her man back, end of affair, full stop. I'm going to stop there - feeling a bit twisted tonight. TT



I have considered that a lot - it IS better that OM was a wizened elderly dwarf. How could I compete with a young charmer ? Even Squid said her affair was about companionship,not sex but really the dynamics are far more complicated than "Bob didn't pay her enough attention so poor Squid looked elsewhere". Squid systematically built a seperate life excluding me in her sport for at least a year before her PA, I THINK because OM started to groom her long ago, when he forst strated teaching her to referee.

I offered MC, rejected, I offered weekends away,: rejected, I offered to change my job and work with her on finding another one: ignored. Part time jobs for Squid ? Ignored. Squid even told me after D-day " I knew you wanted to work on our marriage but I chose not to".

Fog ? Maybe. Some truth in there though.

She was BORED with her life, good and bad, me included and she felt like the Queen of Karate with this man the King of Karate. He is quite famous in her sport, and as she filled her life with her sport, he must have been quite a trophy. Especially as his GF is a 32YO glamour puss. Squid must have felt great about herself briefly.

She has always hated being seen as being a " middle aged SAHM" even though only she ever saw herself in that way. There really is a selfish streak to Squid that has been there for years, nourished by my conflict avoidance.

OMs practiced charm ( 3 divorces, many affairs) and position at the top of her sport opened her heart. It must be how an ugly bast' like Clinton or David Blunkett attract pretty women into affairs - power and practiced charm.


THAT'S why I am not certain Squid will not have another A. I cannot offer her a significantly different life to the one I always have. We have children. I am the main breadwinner. She didn't have ANY responsibilities with OM other than listening intently to his lies about the state of his relationship with his GF and to listen while he told her how beautiful her hair was in the moonlight.

Life for parents , however much they love each other, consists of certain duties and Squid doesn;t seem to like them.

To add some spice and variety I bought us a holiday home for weekends and weeks away, we go on regular vacations, I always bought flowers, ran candle baths, sent loving txts, etc etc. I changed her mumsy minibus for a sports car so she wouldn;t feel as much like a 'mum' -- yet she still chose an affair with a 'sub-optimal partner'.

THAT why I can't 'need' her again just yet. I need to know she is not just 'tolerating' the life she has with us out of guilt and duty and she will'burst' again when the domesticity gets too much for her.

Re: the ring, it made SQUID very happy, and that made me happy. I didnt know how much she wanted to wear a ring, specifically a new one. Now I do.

You say an interesting thing when you say she's got her ring, she's got her man back, end of affair

Do you think I should make her worry for longer that I do not want to be married to her, or commit to her TT ? Have I let her off the hook too soon ? I don't think so - she has felt SO cr@p TT, It serves no purpose for either of us to prolong that. Squid still knows theres a chance we won't make it, and that we have a lot of work still to do. But she deserves a platform of SOME security from me IMO. I love her, what can I say ?

We have been married for 18 years , even when she was walking hand in hand with OM on Caorle beach in Italy. She just didn;t want to be then. The new ring just celebrates the fact that we both ant to be married to each other right now. At least I think she does.

As half the 'wise heads' on this board say I am rushing things, and the others say I am too patient I think the speed is about right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for your thought provoking reply TT. Sorry you're feeling twisted today mate {{{T}}}

Bob: Let me interject my thoughts and opinions here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She has always hated being seen as being a " middle aged SAHM" even though only she ever saw herself in that </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One thing I've noticed on many FWW's threads is it's not how we see them, but how they see themselves. Awhile back someone had a thread on self esteem. Many FWW's didn't think they had esteem problems but in the way they looked at themselves there was something that the A brought out in them.

One thing I believe that I've noticed in you, is that as you have been traversing this slippery road, you have been working on being there for your kids and healing yourself. Ultimately, IMO, this will go a long way in helping you recover your M, mate! Now the job is to coax Squid to come along for the ride (and I don't mean, "AHEM"), to have her join you in your journey to grow. Mentally and spriritually with your mate. Bob, you've already come along way physically (lost weight and feel better than you have in years right). You're part where there, but you just need to communicate this to Squid AND for her to hear and join. You'll get there.

We've seen your strong Plan A and WE (marriagebuilder board readers) know that you two will build a stronger, better Marriage. Much luck to you mate!

(OT: Years ago, my dad's one hunting buddy -who we'd only see once or twice a year at hunting season- would always call my dad "Matey." His name was "Skip." I always thought that was funny. So maybe you're my "Skip"?)

L8r

^ bump for timezones !

I just went back through pages of Idiotville stuff to see if you'd replied. Felt a bit disappointed and then found this!

Now don't ask me why I analyse your relationship when there are so many others to give my attention to. I think it's because you're English!

So here goes. I feel like Squid's been rewarded for her A. I know that you love her and I envy your commitment but it seems to me she did mighty wrong and yet you do all the hard work. You appear to be such a caring and loving creature and yet got shat on. And I can relate to that because I got the same treatment. Our situation has such a different timeframe though and I'm sure that has made things worse. But I have cared and given and now I just don't know whether I want to give my SELFISH husband any further efforts. I can't work out why I feel this way. My kids are worth it, we've been together since I was 17, there is so much history but I feel incredulous at the choices he has made over the past few years.

I still have no idea what our OW looks like and that pleases me. There are no pictures in my mind whereas your ugly old git will haunt you for a while. It just all seems so bloody unfair. I read extracts from a book today called "Why We Stay Together". It said under no circumstances ask for sexual details. So many people here want to know EXACTLY what's been going on. Well I know that sex wasn't the issue for us - when we were good we were very very good and I won't believe he got anything better. It was just thrilling because it was new and illegal. I miss "ahem".

Anyway Bob, will stop there. Roast chicken is nearly ready and there is a queue for the computer. I'm coming up for one year since Dday and I wish I could just not care. I hate the fact he rewrote the book without my permission. You refer to divorce every now and then but I think you really love your lady. You'll get through all this I'm sure, but doncha hate those scars? TT

I feel like Squid's been rewarded for her A.

Wow. That rocked me back on my heels a bit TT.

Never seen a BS mb-advised response post d-day interpreted like that before but I can see that its a valid interpretation of events.

Not sure what to say to that.

OK, I think its every BS' instinct to want to punish a WS for their infidelity: for hurting us so wrecklessly.

And I know of situations where this has happened : paint stripper poured on porsches, billboards with details of affairs etc etc. I am sure the BS felt smug and righteous after so doing. But are they still married ? Did that reponse acknowledge the part the BS played in making an affair-risk marriage ?

Fact is I decided to stay married to Squid if I could, and that involved making myself as atrractive a spouse as I could be when I felt like worthless cr@p. That looks as though I'm sucking up or rewarding Squids affair, well maybe so, but its just what was needed to wrest her from the clutches of OM and her delusions.

Also, the efforts I have made in better supporting our M have been of huge PERSONAL benefit to ME also. I am slimmer, buff, more confident; a better Dad and more able to discuss stuff not avoid conflict. Whether I stay with Squid or not those improvements are real and will stay with me.

Wow. Rewarding Squid for her affair.

What a head f'k !

All I can say is that if you saw how sh1tty Squid felt about herself, despite my best efforts at 'rewarding' her, you;d feel that maybe she;d suffered enough.

Food for thought though TT. thanks

Hey Bob - Hope you don't mind me popping in your your's and TT's thread...

I've posted to you several times... I'm not an expert. I'm not a trained MC. All I can offer are my experiences of what I've been through and what worked or didn't work for us as we started to rebuild our M.

I completely understand TT's comments about 'rushing' things. So as long as Squiddy isn't taking advantage of you, I don't think that there is any danger of you "letting her off" too easy.

My W didn't start responding and taking an active part in rebuilding our M until I provided her with a safe, secure place.

The absolute hardest thing for me to "get" was that my actions had a direct impact on my W's actions. Bob, there were a lot of things that I had to change with ME before we could start rebuilding... and likewise, my W had to change a lot of things about HER .

I've seen you make the changes since you've been here Bob... and from what you're telling us, I can see that Squiddy is making changes too. I know that some people may think that I'm too optimistic when I tell you guys that "you're going to make it" ... But Bob, I truly believe that based on the changes that I've seen you make since you started posting here six months ago.

My W and I no longer have the sharp pain of the past. Yes, the kowledge is there that it happened, but we've gotten to a point where we enjoy each other's company and we both make it a point to try and build each other up every day. For us, all we have right now is the internet and the occasional letter or package... But we still make the effort. You and Squiddy will get there...

Bob you and Squiddy are going to have many more rough days ahead. I'm not about to sit here and blow sunshine at you and tell you that everything will be "fine". Rebuilding your M takes hard work and a strong commitment from both of you.

You made that commitment when you joined MB... You're doing the hard work to rebuild... and I think that Squiddy has gotten to a point where she, too, is making a commitment to the M...

Bob, keep up the great job of providing Squiddy with a safe and secure place... and I think you'll soon see her joining you in the hard work of rebuilding your M... together.

Semper Fi,
RIF

RIF, I know you are no pro MC BUT - your experiences are outworkings of the effects of MB type recovery. SAA is just prose with your caring input and honesty.

RIF I also know you are not just being blindy optimistic when you say we'll be OK. Its clear that Squid and I are hitting the same milestones you and W did but a little earlier. I appreciate your informed confidence I really do.

I think I have the right balance of patience and persistence, ( a line between my own conflict avoidance instinct and the most agressive lifers advice on this board!) and if anyone is going to make it as a happy couple its Squid and I.

With such a prayer chan as we have attracted on here, how can we fail ?

The thing in TTs post that struck me though was that I might be rewarding Squid for her affair.

Its true she had an affair and I strived to be the best man I can be afterwards.but even having thought about it I don't see what benefit there is of my 'punishing' her. She feels cr@p anyway, and is still pretty fragile. Its only been 4 months since NC remember, she feels like doo doo.

'sides I love her. I think I always will.

We just took Squids dying mom out to lunch ( first time in her life she ate Thai - and loved it ! We had a great time !) and Squid was playing footsie withe me under the table. Like a teen !

She loves me, and more to the point she has the hots for me again. Thats MAGNIFICENT progress for four months since NC.

I can be patient and NOT worry that it seems I have rewarded Squids infidelity I think !

Bob, I wouldn't go another week without making a couples therapy appointment.

Your marriage will thrive if you follow up what you've already accomplished with therapy.

You need a pro, dude.

If your sports-car had this severe a breakdown, wouldn't you take it to a pro? Or would you read a book and fix it yourself?

I don't want to hear that there aren't any in your country.... just do it.

Pep

Hey Bob - DITTO what Pep said!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pep, Squid won't go. And the chucrch counsellor I spoke to was a well intentioned buffoon. I see another this weekend.

I'm trying. I really am.

But in any case Squid won't go. She is the antithesis of the natural therapy subject. Intensely private and closed PARTICULARLY about her A. Now you see what its been such a chore to get her to contribute to recovery.

"We need to see a marriage counsellor"

"Why"

" because we have issue sthat I don;pt think we can fix on our own"

"what problems?"

"Dicovering and agreeing the issues that made our M cr@p and that made you have an affair for example."

"I was stupid, I stopped seeing him. I never want too see or mention him ever again, and I love you. What else is there to do ?"

"I think its nmore complicated than that"

"how so? You're just digging bones, Let it lie baby. I love you and we are doing great, whay talk to strangers about our past problems?"
etc

And thats what I get.

And TT will attest, only self indulgent middle classes and nutcases undergo therapy in the UK. It is not the logical recourse for troubled folks that it is in the US.

Thats just how it is. I'm pushing a rope uphill on this one.

My best hope is to join a new church and utilise THEIR pastoral couples care service. I am looking out for that too.

See ? Tough innit ?

Bob,

Would you be open to going by yourself? To counseling, i mean. If Squid sees you go, it might open her eyes a bit to how serious this business of affairs really is. Would she mind if you went alone?

RH went for IC early on because he didn't want to end up resenting me. I remember you saying you needed Squid's help to overcome that, even though you had forgiven her. I don't necessarily think you need HER help, just someone's help. Best person for that job is a professional. I know it helped RH enormously. Just something to consider.
May I add that although this forum can be helpful, I have found, for myself, that it has done me more harm than good. There is no one to blame for that, it's just that there is such a variety of advice that it is so hard for me to separate what is the "right" advice from what is not. I end up feeling so confused and stupid....not a good thing. And the times that I have been away from this forum, I have felt better....so why do I keep coming back? I think it's just because RH is here, and I don't want to miss out on anything he says or feels. I'm afraid of being "left out" of his life again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Maybe if you go, she'll get so curious and want to know what takes place that she'll eventually want to go with you?? You never know! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care, Bob.

NOW

NOW wouldn't you know after that TWAT with a 2x4 from pep, I ave a response from the UK Catholic association about their PRO M counselling service. Its just in the next town.

I'll go myself to check it out and make sure they're OK with a proddy seeking their help.

Re advice from the board I know the posters whose advice to consider and the ones not to. The best have experiences that are outworkings of MB tenets.

BUT After the last coupla days I am baking off a bit. Its hard being looked up to as an 'uber-BS' when I'm just a jock with a broken heart doing my best like everyone else.

Thanks NOW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"how so? You're just digging bones, Let it lie baby. I love you and we are doing great, whay talk to strangers about our past problems?"
etc</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">~~~~~Why? Because I still hurt from the betrayal. I still have emotional trauma begging to be soothed. That's why. If you are not willing to help me find my way out of this emotional spiral, I will go alone. I wanted you there for support. But I will go alone if necessary.~~~~~

.... go there.... she needs to hear the truth more than she needs a ring (as nice as that was).

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"how so? You're just digging bones, Let it lie baby. I love you and we are doing great, whay talk to strangers about our past problems?"
etc</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">~~~~~Why? Because I still hurt from the betrayal. I still have emotional trauma begging to be soothed. That's why. If you are not willing to help me find my way out of this emotional spiral, I will go alone. I wanted you there for support. But I will go alone if necessary.~~~~~

.... go there.... she needs to hear the truth more than she needs a ring (as nice as that was).

Pep

PS ... "We are doing great"

Means as long as the affair remains a burried issue.... I feel great.

This is uber avoidance... don't dance this dance!


Pep

.... go there.... she needs to hear the truth more than she needs a ring (as nice as that was).


She doesn't want to tell people that she had an affair, why she had it and how she feels about it now.

She can only BARELY tell ME that and I am her husband.

And I am not sure whose truth she needs to hear. I have learned there is no single truth in this mess.

I think the best we could hope for is a caring dissection of the FACTS and we can deduce the truth of them for ourselves.

And Pep, the ring wasn't a substitution for anything. I felt the need and it transpire it meant a whole lot more to her that I could of imagined.

I see the Catholic Marriage Care folks on Saturday morning.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hey Bob, I've got no time this am. It's sports day at school.

Look, I would never advocate punishing Squid but that's probably how it sounded. Punishment being the opposite of reward.

Maybe men and women deal with these things differently - that has occurred to me before when I've read how the BS men always want to go and punch out the lights of OM whereas most BS women want to punch the lights out of their WH!!

What I'm trying to get out is that I can't find those feelings within myself at the moment - those feelings of love and forgiveness. OK, I haven't got the money to be going out and getting WH a ring, but I feel strongly he should me the one making a move towards me and looking after me. I've looked after him for years, practically spoilt him - it's time the tables were turned. And I don't think my man has the capability to do this. He also poo-poohed counselling yet, sent an email last week saying he is in a "deep dark hole, doesn't know who to turn to, who to talk to, where to go". Go and frigging talk to a counsellor. I have told him a million times. I can't sort out what's in his head and it seems he can't either. I refuse to let him back in our house until he shows steps to change otherwise it will just be business as usual. I'm late will be back this pm. TT