I spoke with my wife tonight - she was at school between classes. The topic of sex came up, and she said she kind of wants to try it, but is very nervous because she doesn't trust me (yes, I know, she had the affair) but she wants to try to talk about things for a while and see where it leads.

Although I am dying to hav sex (it's been...a looong time) I am more anxious to talk - but I am also scared about it. I don't want to blow up, LB, or anything, and I know she will probably try a few buttons to see if there is something she can do. I know that if we can make it thru a good conversation, we will have already started on the right road - and if we have sex too...I can almost feel the hope that maybe a little trust will start coming back - I want to deposit as much as possible in her Love Bank tonight, and I want her to ask me to forgive her.

But I am really worried - this feels like some sort of test - as tho I'm on trial to see if I'm good enough for her. I know that's a mean thing to say about her - I really do love her - but it was only a week ago that she was over at the OM house doing whatever.....she hasn't told me yet, except to say they didn't go 'all the way.' I don't know what to expect, and I'm really nervous.

Guess I'll just play it by ear and try to be loving and the guy she wants. Dang, I'd love to get l**d tonight tho! Especially if she means what she is saying.

Again, I'm so confused I don't know what to do. Maybe I should just hold off on the sex - turn her down (there's always a first time for everything!) and just say that I need more time.

As always, cornfused 'n baffled.

David

<small>[ January 19, 2005, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>

OK as a woman I have to tell you that if a man really wants to do that but pushes it to the back burner for cuddling and good conversation, it means more than making love. And who knows, maybe during that conversation and holding, things will progress to an honest exhcange of feelings and not just sex. Does that make sense?
Just one lady's opinion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by truetoself:
<strong> OK as a woman I have to tell you that if a man really wants to do that but pushes it to the back burner for cuddling and good conversation, it means more than making love. And who knows, maybe during that conversation and holding, things will progress to an honest exhcange of feelings and not just sex. Does that make sense?
Just one lady's opinion. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's what I want more than the sex. I want to know more about her than she even realizes. I want that conversation. I think this website is changing me.

I want the sex too - hee hee

Thank you. I need the women's perspective on this - I still don't know why she went to another guy when I was right here trying so hard to fill her love bank. Maybe a good conversation will fill that in a bit...

Well, just had our great talk for the evening. I tried to start it off by being pleasant and offered to answer any questions that she may have about my EA of several years ago that may still be unresolved.

She skipped that and went directly into the same tirade that she has done for years - how she has worked for so many years to be a better person, and how I've never changed, how I'm still the same jerk that could care less whether she lives or not, as long as she passes law school and earns enough money for me to sit at home and play video games.

Never mind the fact that while it is true that I used to sit at home while she worked and played video games, that was about six yeara ago, and I haven't touched one in that long, nor that I work 50-60 hours a week and have been faithful to her completely after my EA.

I thought that if I answered any unanswered, unresolved questions about that affair that she might open up a bit and let me in. Not to be. All I got was that I am abusive, self-centered, and apparently lazy and was totally thoughtless and evil to ever even think of liking that trailer trash slut (her words for OW - I can understand that...)

I told her I'd rather our conversations try to work things out rather than just aim to hurt. She said, well, that's the way its going to be for a few weeks at least, and she does not want to offer me any explanation for her affair. She feels that I am not trustworthy enough to open up and give details - like I'm going to what, be upset? For God's sake, I'm already devastated, and every time we have an evening together, she manages to make the whole damn thing my fault.

I didn't tell her this, but I am beginning to want out. I was open from the day she called me on my affair, although it took about a week to get to the point where I admitted that the OW and I did kiss. All I get from her is that we need a third party there or she will not talk.

I guess that's fine, if I can find one - but I don't get this. Why do I go to bed totally hurt, and she is up laughing, having fun with her friends?

I think I may just start with a lawyer tomorrow. I want so badly to save this marriage, but she doesn't even seem to care.

And she is still in contact with the OM. She's not even getting the best of both worlds - unless to her making me feel like dirt IS one of her ENs that the other guy can't fill.

I feel so alone right now that I don't know what I'm going to do...I feel raped, devastated and useless. And sorry for myself. I can tell you this. If the situation were reversed - if she had had an affair four years ago instead of me, and had I had seen all the hurt and devatstation it caused this family, there would have been no way that I would have gone ahead and done it myself. What kind of person would do that without even a hint of sorrow? What kind of demons are the kids and I that we should receive this treatment?????

David

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>

bump

See what happens when you are too anxious? WS' know when the BS is willing to settle for crumbs?

Let her know you are worth more than crumbs. If that is the best she can do, you will have to make changes. Don't explain, just give notice. Is it an ultimatum? No more than the WS gives the BS.

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> See what happens when you are too anxious? WS' know when the BS is willing to settle for crumbs?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right. I suspected something from the start, but my heart wants things to work out so bad. This was a tough lesson, and it will not happen again. I hope anyone else out there that is just starting this process takes notice. The whole evening was designed to hurt me. Thanks for the kick in the behind, Orchid - I need 'em on occasion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Let her know you are worth more than crumbs. If that is the best she can do, you will have to make changes. Don't explain, just give notice. Is it an ultimatum? No more than the WS gives the BS.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know what ultimatum to give: I've already asked her to stop sending Victoria's Secret photos asking me if she'd look good in them. Last time I did that she bought it and wore it over the OMs house. I can't even stand the fact that that really gorgeous outfit is sitting in my bedroom. I just want to throw it away, except it cost me so much. I will never let her wear it around me, though. I've already told her the only work I am going to do with her is to build and repair our relationship. What do I do now, ask her to drop bringing up stuff I did 10 years ago as though she's never gotten over it (apparentky she hasn't, even though I've appologized over and over.)

Let me explain that. When I was younger, I was an opinionated a-hole. I knew what the best books were, I knew what the best music was, I knew what the best movies were, and I would literally taunt her for liking the wrong stuff. One day I realized that I was being an [censored] and I stopped doing it. And lo! I started liking all kinds of books, movies, music. I appologized to her, and I have never once since then made any comment about whatever she desires to watch - even if Oprah gives me the creeps (hee hee - that was just to throw a wrench in - I'm an insatiable comdedian). And yet that is what she dwells on - how mean I was - how I demanded change - how that was abuse, and she's been in an abusive relationship for years. The only abuse that I have done in recent years was 1) to have an EA - the ultimate form of abuse, and 2) get falling down barfing in the trashcan drunk once last summer, both of which I have asked her forgiveness and tried hard to make up for.

Why isn't anything ever enough? She used THESE examples toi justify her affair to her (and used to be my) friends. She can't see that I can no longer go to any functions with her because of what is basically slander.

Actually, I wish she'd post her views on here - it feels so one-sided to let me ramble on without her being able to defend. In my defense, I am trying to be completely objective - except when I lose my temper.

So what ultimatum can I give? Guess I will have to come up with that myself. I worked 60 hours straight, and then had 2 days off where I thought maybe we could take a good look at where we are. Guess that's asking too much. Most likely she'll be out of the house as soon as I settle in at work tomorrow for another full night of fun.

Man, I am embarrassed and angry for falling for that.

On top of that, she just came back to the bedroom sweet as honey ands wished me goodnight, saying she felt safer sleeping on the couch. Go for it! I'm not touching you anyway, Might as well hit the adult shop and buy yourself a best friend. Maybe I could get her one for our Anniversary (next Monday). I was actually planning on buying her 17 red roses (I alweays add one more each year) and a set of Jane Austin (Colin Firth) DVDs she really wants. Think I should go ahead with that?

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>

Why are you trying to reward a WS? I am sooo angry right now at H's younger BIL. He is giving his W $$, cars, jewelry, travel, plastic surgery (she probably has a frequent surgery card), braces, etc. She rewards him with an A, excessive spending on herself and hardly anything on her children.

But he doesn't see it. He only reminds us of the few times she acts like a mother. Can't remember the last time she acted nice to her H. I hate my SIL. NOw that's a strong statement from me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

So when I see a BS bending over backwards just to get their azz kicked, I get a tad angry. You decide if you like your butt kicked..... if you don't stop bending over. Stop rewarding the WS.

Save all that good stuff for when she is your W.

If she babbles, learn to babble back, giving her back her guilt.

JMHO,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>

So when I see a BS bending over backwards just to get their azz kicked, I get a tad angry. You decide if you like your butt kicked..... if you don't stop bending over. Stop rewarding the WS.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was thanking YOU for the kick in the butt - gave me a wake up call. I do have to stop bending over waiting for her next move....

I was under the impression the RB worked better in Plan B, although to tell the truth, that is rapidly becoming a real thought for me....

You're the greatest, Orchid. Thanks. Would you marry me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 02:12 AM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>

Awwhhh... T, though we are the same age, I am already taken and you are making me blush. LOL!!! Good to know that there's a nice guy from my generation/year. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Keep standing tall..... Otherwise we might be eye to eye. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> So your W see what she might be missing.

take care,
L.

:)I had to edit this as I was in a hurry when I posted and it was not exactly the way I wanted to express myself so……..

I just read your post and I wondered how long your WW has been using your EA of 10 years ago in your arguments and disagreements?

Has this been a recent thing or has it been regular?

Blaming you is a classic WW move as its hard to face what you are doing when you know its wrong. Again it’s the fog talk.

Regardless of the length of time this tactic has been used on you, you should not accept it. Practice reverse babble as Orchid said….like when she attacks you for abusing her, you reply ‘yes your abuse and adultery is very abusive etc etc‘...no yelling or anything but turning it back towards her current situation.

The other thing I suspect is that her comments are habitual and she uses them and your EA to get her own way.. a form of emotional blackmail and THAT IS abusive. Again you should not be accepting this.

I also wonder David from your description of the 'talk' if you may have been a big conflict avoider in your M...perhaps???

Have you read all there is on Plan A? - I feel you need to continue this for a while yet. After all the aim is to SAVE the M not run off to a Dv when it gets tough, and don’t kid yourself it will get worse!!

Don’t sell yourself short as I feel you have the potential to use plan A very well and effectively. When she attacks you reverse babble, always try to meet her EN’s [you know about EN’s??]

You should only see a lawyer at this time if you believe her behaviour is a threat to the kids and want to protect them from her WW actions. Abandoning them during the night to go out IS not acceptable behaviour if that is what is happening. In such circumstances it does no harm to see a lawyer just to know where you stand. May even need a urgent custody order in such a situation but that’s really your call.

So continue Plan A for now. Vent here & ask questions & there will be someone to help you.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: aussieswife ]</small>

No,No,No,No,No.

David,

Please stop with the ultimatums and thinking about a D right now.It is way too soon for that,ok? It is part of the rollercoaster.One day you feel so giving and want to work things out and the next day you want to dump it all,especially if you take to heart what the WS says to you.

Please keep this in mind: while you are going through this very emotional time,do not make any major decisions about staying or leaving.Please stick to the plans,which for you is Plan A,and keep trying to fill her love bank.I know that is hard when she treats you poorly but that's what you need to do if you are going to follow the advice here.

If SF was a high need for your WW then you can try to fill it(be sure to protect yourself!!)along with other needs.

You have to realize that with a WS they are going to flip flop back and forth with emotions and actions and that is why YOU need to be steady and stable.Like you mentioned,your WW may be grouchy and accusatory one day and sweet like honey the next(Dr.Jekyl,Mrs.Hyde).That is expected.But if you are both acting badly toward each other and no one has the helm then you will sail off course and sink your own ship.

You are doing good by keeping your calm(mostly) and trying to discuss a few things but in this time frame,most relationship talk is avoided.The WS doesn't want to review the past or present in a positive way and it can lead to anger.That's why the focus needs to be on the love bank,filling needs,maintaining boundaries,keep negotiating for the end of the A,take care of yourself,protect yourself,use Orchid's famous babble back methods when needed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> and stay calm.

You are to be blamed for everything by your WS's mentality so expect her to flame you with that right now.She's under the A influence.Keep bettering yourself too.I like to hear of the changes you have made.That's a good thing.

Lastly,remember that you will be tempted with what seems to be the occasional Fog breakthrough,and I see it all the time: the BS gets so excited about their WS showing some "sign" that they may be coming back or starting to think about the effect on the BS and then whammo! They are back to being the alien.Watch her actions ,not what she says.

O

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

October is EXACTLY right! She is no where near ready to come out of the fog. My bet is that some sort of Plan B will be in order before her outer brain casing is removed from her waste disposal unit.

But no Plan B yet!! You have a little while to go. I think you misunderstand Plan A though. Plan A is not being a doormat. It is NOT being run over like a freight train, although it may feel like that at times.

Plan A is making changes and meeting ENs in order to separate the WS from the OP. I know you have that part. But nothing says you cannot do that AND set boundaries. Like SF, for example. I want you to think about this for a second. Let's say you all have sex this week. And then, out of fog and guilt, she rambles back to OM and is distant and nasty to you again. How are you going to take it? If you take it as she is back in the fog, but that you deposited some love units in her bank...one step closer...then go for the sex!! If you are going to expect her to dump OM and come running back into your arms...and when she doesnt and is nasty again you are going to be destroyed...well, then the sex is out of the question right now. Instead, you can do the holding/talking thing and tell her that until OM is gone and you all get some help, then you dont think it is wise yet to go that far.

Do you see? Boundaries. Find out what is best and what you can take, all the while meeting her top ENs.

Another example. This one happened to me. Let's say your WW is mad one night and comes over under the pretense of talking to the kids. But within minutes after getting there, she comes up to you and starts ranting fog babble and trying to start a fight. What do you do? Well, it is not an LB to ask her to leave. That you are not going to have that go on, especially in your home...and in front of the kids. If she wants to talk calmly and quietly, then you are open. But while she is in that mood, then I am asking you to leave. Boundaries...without LBing.

In my case, by doing that...she calmed down and asked if we could talk. Two bottles of wine later and 4 hours of talking, I found out that she had told OM that she was going home to work things out with me. You see, if I had taken the bait on her argument and mood, then it would have justified in her mind what she had been doing. And she would have walked back to the OM, thinking that she was going to try, but that I am too difficult, etc.

Whether you know it or not, you are in control of this situation. Sure, you cant make decisions for your wife. And ultimately, she will decide whether she comes back or not. But you have control over your situation, your environment, your actions.

Learn to read fog babble. Learn to understand it. Learn to send it back, without LBing. Stuff like "You are lazy and never pay attention to me" should be sent back as "I can see how you might think that, honey. I am sure glad I have learned that and I am not like that anymore. I am sorry for what I did back then." And then shut up. Of course, she will say you havent changed. But you talking about it doesnt make it so. Change is only noticed by actions and time.

So, sit down and decide what your boundaries are. Keep Plan Aing. As you are able to draw boundaries, but still meet her needs, you will begin to feel better and more empowered. And an interesting thing will happen...you will begin to look even better in her eyes because you are being a man again. And from what I hear from the gals, there is nothing sexier than a guy that is confident and in charge.

Anyway, set up boundaries and take it easy. She is making some early attempts at busting out of her fog. But she isnt ready to be your wife yet. But, while this may not be the beginning of the end, it is definitely the end of the beginning.

In His arms.

Hi aussiewife!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I just read your post and I wondered how long your WW has been using your EA of 10 years ago in your arguments and disagreements?

Has this been a recent thing or has it been regular?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My EA was 4 years ago, she found aout about 3 and a half years ago, and it has been her favorite weapon since then - anytime I do anything that annoys her. She uses it to influence how her friends treat me, she uses it to get me to stop convesations where I feel a need to bring up something that hurts me, etc. That's the main reason why I thought that, if she was willing to talk, I would answer any and all questions she may have about it - thought maybe there was something unresolved there that might help her - or even find some sort of common ground for her to start talking about her current affair. No dice!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Blaming you is a classic WW move as its hard to face what you are doing when you know its wrong. Again it’s the fog talk.</strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I know it's fog talk, and I have pretty much prepared myself to expect it, but it can still hurt like heck when she knows the buttons to push. She knows how badly I feel about betraying her and our family back then, and yes, it is my Achilles Heel. There are a coule of other issues that she uses, I need to be able to stop them as well...

[quote]<strong>Regardless of the length of time this tactic has been used on you, you should not accept it. Practice reverse babble as Orchid said….like when she attacks you for abusing her, you reply ‘yes your abuse and adultery is very abusive etc etc‘...no yelling or anything but turning it back towards her current situation.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree I should not accept it, but that's easier said than done - I've beaten myself up for three years for what I did, and did nothing to defenbd myself from her attackes 'cause I felt I deserved it. I think it's time to move on from that, but its a hard row to hoe...

As for the reverse babble - I was under the impression that was more designed for plan B - I'll have to be very careful not to LB her doing it - I'm trying very hard to build her Love Bank...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>The other thing I suspect is that her comments are habitual and she uses them and your EA to get her own way.. a form of emotional blackmail and THAT IS abusive. Again you should not be accepting this.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It IS abusive, it IS habitual, and I am not sure how to address that, since she considers my past behavior to have boxed me in as The Abusive Husband, with her as the Innocent Victim. I stopped that abuse a long time ago, when I realized how stupid it was. Its just that throughout her entire life (from a baby on) she has never let her grip go an anything that angers her. She holds resentment like the sea holds water.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I also wonder David from your description of the 'talk' if you may have been a big conflict avoider in your M...perhaps???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nail on the head there. I'm in personal counselling right now in an attempt to overcome that - was raised by a sort of abusive mom who would not let me talk while she berated me for hours. Yes, I'm messed up and need to grow a long ways....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Have you read all there is on Plan A? - I feel you need to continue this for a while yet. After all the aim is to SAVE the M not run off to a Dv when it gets tough, and don’t kid yourself it will get worse!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know if I've read all of the lit on Plan A - I'm trtng to work it right now. I'm NOT planning to run off and divcorce my wife - but I do want to prepare ahead of time for a custody battle that is a very real possibility - hence the reference to a lawyer. I was typing my post last night while she was standing there

Don’t sell yourself short as I feel you have the potential to use plan A very well and effectively. When she attacks you reverse babble, always try to meet her EN’s [you know about EN’s??]

You should only see a lawyer at this time if you believe her behaviour is a threat to the kids and want to protect them from her WW actions. Abandoning them during the night to go out IS not acceptable behaviour if that is what is happening. In such circumstances it does no harm to see a lawyer just to know where you stand. May even need a urgent custody order in such a situation but that’s really your call.

So continue Plan A for now. Vent here & ask questions & there will be someone to help you.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Hi aussiewife!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I just read your post and I wondered how long your WW has been using your EA of 10 years ago in your arguments and disagreements?

Has this been a recent thing or has it been regular?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My EA was 4 years ago, she found about about 3 and a half years ago, and it has been her favorite weapon since then - anytime I do anything that annoys her. She uses it to influence how her friends treat me, she uses it to get me to stop convesations where I feel a need to bring up something that hurts me, etc. That's the main reason why I thought that, if she was willing to talk, I would answer any and all questions she may have about it - thought maybe there was something unresolved there that might help her - or even find some sort of common ground for her to start talking about her current affair. No dice!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Blaming you is a classic WW move as its hard to face what you are doing when you know its wrong. Again it’s the fog talk.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it's fog talk, and I have pretty much prepared myself to expect it, but it can still hurt like heck when she knows the buttons to push. She knows how badly I feel about betraying her and our family back then, and yes, it is my Achilles Heel. There are a coule of other issues that she uses, I need to be able to stop them as well...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Regardless of the length of time this tactic has been used on you, you should not accept it. Practice reverse babble as Orchid said….like when she attacks you for abusing her, you reply ‘yes your abuse and adultery is very abusive etc etc‘...no yelling or anything but turning it back towards her current situation.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree I should not accept it, but that's easier said than done - I've beaten myself up for three years for what I did, and did nothing to defenbd myself from her attackes 'cause I felt I deserved it. I think it's time to move on from that, but its a hard row to hoe...

As for the reverse babble - I was under the impression that was more designed for plan B - I'll have to be very careful not to LB her doing it - I'm trying very hard to build her Love Bank...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>The other thing I suspect is that her comments are habitual and she uses them and your EA to get her own way.. a form of emotional blackmail and THAT IS abusive. Again you should not be accepting this.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It IS abusive, it IS habitual, and I am not sure how to address that, since she considers my past behavior to have boxed me in as The Abusive Husband, with her as the Innocent Victim. I stopped that abuse a long time ago, when I realized how stupid it was. Its just that throughout her entire life (from a baby on) she has never let her grip go an anything that angers her. She holds resentment like the sea holds water.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I also wonder David from your description of the 'talk' if you may have been a big conflict avoider in your M...perhaps???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nail on the head there. I'm in personal counselling right now in an attempt to overcome that - was raised by a sort of abusive mom who would not let me talk while she berated me for hours. Yes, I'm messed up and need to grow a long ways....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Have you read all there is on Plan A? - I feel you need to continue this for a while yet. After all the aim is to SAVE the M not run off to a Dv when it gets tough, and don’t kid yourself it will get worse!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know if I've read all of the lit on Plan A - I'm tryng to work it right now. I'm NOT planning to run off and divorce my wife - but I do want to prepare ahead of time for a custody battle that is a very real possibility - hence the reference to a lawyer. I was typing my post last night while she was standing there going at me like I was a useless organ she was about to get rid of.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Don’t sell yourself short as I feel you have the potential to use plan A very well and effectively. When she attacks you reverse babble, always try to meet her EN’s [you know about EN’s??]</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know the ENs by heart - my trouble is that she refuses to work thru any part of the website )I gave her a copy of the questionaire) so I am onlyu going on what I can GUESS she needs - and part of that I'm basing on what I know about the OM - something he has I don't - and it appears to be Physical Appearance - and the fact that there's no past baggage there - t'aint much I can do about that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> In such circumstances it does no harm to see a lawyer just to know where you stand. May even need a urgent custody order in such a situation but that’s really your call.</strong>[/qoute]

That's basically what my plan is. Stills tuck on Plan A, because I KNOW she is still in contact with the OM, even though she is denying it. Waiting for the phone bill to show her I know....She's stopped all emails to him.

[quote]<strong>So continue Plan A for now. Vent here & ask questions & there will be someone to help you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the advice: I feel awful about needing to vent, like I'm wasting people's time, but Iit does help!

David

Hi Mortarman:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> October is EXACTLY right! She is no where near ready to come out of the fog. My bet is that some sort of Plan B will be in order before her outer brain casing is removed from her waste disposal unit.

But no Plan B yet!! You have a little while to go. I think you misunderstand Plan A though. Plan A is not being a doormat. It is NOT being run over like a freight train, although it may feel like that at times.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know if I misunderstand Plan A as much as I seem to lack the ability to take her abuse and come up with LOVING replies - my desire is to build her Love Bank, and when she pushed those buttons, my old (pre MB) self would have started pushing right back, until there'd be a HUGE yelling fight, all the kids would be huddled together in their 16 year old big brothers' arms, and we would not talk for several days, until we suddenly 'forget about all of it' and act like nothing happened. Last night, I just kept my big mouth shut, let her hurt me until I finally asked if she didn't have a lot of homework to do - she did, and got up and went out to do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Plan A is making changes and meeting ENs in order to separate the WS from the OP. I know you have that part. But nothing says you cannot do that AND set boundaries. Like SF, for example. I want you to think about this for a second. Let's say you all have sex this week. And then, out of fog and guilt, she rambles back to OM and is distant and nasty to you again. How are you going to take it? If you take it as she is back in the fog, but that you deposited some love units in her bank...one step closer...then go for the sex!! If you are going to expect her to dump OM and come running back into your arms...and when she doesnt and is nasty again you are going to be destroyed...well, then the sex is out of the question right now. Instead, you can do the holding/talking thing and tell her that until OM is gone and you all get some help, then you dont think it is wise yet to go that far.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand a lot of that - for example, I had no intention of having sex last night - I just said on the board that I'd love to - but I am stuck on setting boundaries. My wife is by nature a controlling person, NO ONE, by God, NO ONE makes BOUNDARIES for her - that's her number one motivator in life. If there is some boundary, she will eiter punish that person until the boundary is removed, or cut them off entirely, for life, no more contact ('we don't speak to XXX anymore, they are trash'). She makes plenty of boundaries - for example, all forms of physical contact with her are forbidden (been that way for years) except for when it is necessary - as in sex, and then as fast and touchless as possible. So HOW do I set up boundaries to protect myself and the kids. I think I've done a pretty good job with the first one re: the affair: "Hon, you are free to leave anytime, but I will NOT help you pack, sort, or move in anyway - you can do all that work yourself. I will always be here to work on the marriage, anytime day or night, if you fell like doing that, but I will not support your destruction of it" As far as I can tell, that established a boundary that I don't think she perceived as one. It worked, she immediately stopped talking about us separating.

But I do need help in knowing how to set up, and what are acceptble boundaries: She see's rules that I make as 'traps' designed to stop her from being happy....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Do you see? Boundaries. Find out what is best and what you can take, all the while meeting her top ENs.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do see - just need to figure out what her top ENs might possibly be. Every time I check with her, she just says, "You should already know that, I don't have time babysitting you'

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>But within minutes after getting there, she comes up to you and starts ranting fog babble and trying to start a fight. What do you do? Well, it is not an LB to ask her to leave. That you are not going to have that go on, especially in your home...and in front of the kids. If she wants to talk calmly and quietly, then you are open. But while she is in that mood, then I am asking you to leave. Boundaries...without LBing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">k - thanks

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Learn to read fog babble. Learn to understand it. Learn to send it back, without LBing. Stuff like "You are lazy and never pay attention to me" should be sent back as "I can see how you might think that, honey. I am sure glad I have learned that and I am not like that anymore. I am sorry for what I did back then." And then shut up. Of course, she will say you havent changed. But you talking about it doesnt make it so. Change is only noticed by actions and time.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still have so much to learn.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>In His arms. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you so much

David

Had another long distance talk with her - gotta leave for work soon, so have to make this short.

Basically, she said she really wants to work this out, that she is ashamed of her behavior, and that it has cost her her 'character' (by that, she means the strong, honest woman who would never stoop so low as to have an affair). I empathized with her - I know exactly how she feels.

But almost immediately she went back to running over her list of things that I did to her some 10 - 15 years ago - things that I stopped and also have appologized for. At first I was started to ask her just what she wanted me to do about all this - I've appologized, I've stopped, I can't go back and remake it (things like making fun of the music she was listening to, etc). But then I realized how absolutely pointless flogging a dead horse is. I told her that is in the past, and we need to focus on the present and what we can do NOW to make a fresh start - to consider our past relationship as a bad one that we are no loonger in.

She informed me that the damage I had done in the past was more than damage, it was devastation. I asked her for particulars - specific examples. She didn't bring up any.

I got off the conversation 'cause I had to fix supper for the kids and get ready for work. But right now, the emotion I am feeling is rage. I am so angry at her, and that scares me. I can't seem to get the image of her and that guy locking tonsils and whatever else. And I cannot see why she refuses to talk about it other than to mention that I have a right to be angry. Well, true - but, how about an "I'm sorry - please forgive me". Geez, is that too much to ask?

Sorry to rant again. I must have a million miles to go before I see the light....

David

David,

I have been reading your posts and I just want to say that I'm right there with you! I'm so sorry that you are going through this. It just feels like a rollercoaster doesn't it?
I want to go back and read some of your earlier posts soI can get the whole picture. Just wanted to say hang in there. My D day was Dec 6 and the past few days have been the worst I've had yet. I know what you are feeling and wanted to tell you not to give up. All the advice you've been given in these posts really is great advice.

Suzy

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by suzychapstick:
<strong> David,

I have been reading your posts and I just want to say that I'm right there with you! I'm so sorry that you are going through this. It just feels like a rollercoaster doesn't it?
I want to go back and read some of your earlier posts soI can get the whole picture. Just wanted to say hang in there. My D day was Dec 6 and the past few days have been the worst I've had yet. I know what you are feeling and wanted to tell you not to give up. All the advice you've been given in these posts really is great advice.

Suzy </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Suzy - the thing that is getting me is what I;m learnign about my WW that I didn;t even know before - what kind of games she's been playing with me for years, whow she's ruined my chances of ever having any meaningful relationships with her friends - they all know what a horrible monster I am, and all want her to dump me...and yet they smile and invite me to their homes and be all nicey nicey while I'm there.....I don't even want to see any of them again! I thought I knew my wife of 17 years, but now I'm beginning to wonder if I've been an ignorant fool for that long!

It IS a rollercoaster! And it's making me dizzy and nauseous! Ugh!!!!! Lemme off!

David

Okay,

Let me make this short. You received some good information from her, mixed in with babble. The point is to cull out what she has said and get to the meat of it, and ignore the crap.

She said she wants the marriage. Her actions show that is true. How? Well, she hasnt run off and left and signed divorce papers, has she? She is still talking about sex and other stuff with you, right? So, she is still in the "game." But, she is also still in the fog.

There is a lot of pain there. Some that you have caused. A lot that she has caused due to this affair. To come out of the fog means that she has to confront that.

But get this (and I had to learn this the hard way)...SHE has to do it. You can not tell her, educate her, manipulate her, demand of her, etc.

You know, sometimes people get brain damage. And I watched a show on that recently as the doctors began to retrain that person to use other parts of their brain. They had to be retrained to use a pencil and to write...and to walk. The part of the brain that used to do that was damaged. So, new connections in their brain had to be made in order for this person to be normal again.

It is like that in the fog. They need to re-attach with reality. And that is not done over night. It takes one step at a time. The damage has been done. In order to get out of it, they need to do this at their pace.

So, what does that mean for you? It means, just sit back and watch. If you write a journal, it may help. It will help because you will be able to go back at times and read...and watch her progress. With her starting off saying "we're thru." To the current "I want to work on this, but you have devastated me." You can watch the changes. It is hard to see them day-to-day. But over time, you will notice.

Unfortunately, your marriage didnt get to this point overnight...and it is going to take awhile for it to get where you want it. I knwo it is frustrating. Many days, I am frustrated...and we are doing pretty well in recovery. But I have learned that as we move forward, there will be setbacks. It is all part of the mess we created.

You are going to have to trust God on this one. And just do what you can. Dont worry about an apology. You may never get one. Shoot, my wife is just now reaching the point of getting to anything like that. And believe me, there are times where she still says "well, you did this in the past, which caused that..." Retraining the brain!!

You can't make your wife do anything, and especially be what she should be overnight. Just like you wouldnt expect the brain damaged guy I was talking about to just jump up and be normal tomorrow.

What does God say is your role as husband? It is different than the role given to the wife. My wife used to say "many women are mad at the word "submit." But I dont see it that way. I see you having the harder job. Because I am called to submit and respect you...you are called to love me like Christ loves us...to die for me."

Have you died for her? It doesnt matter what she does. Christ died for us while we were yet sinners. So, I ask you again...have you died for her? I dont mean physically. If a bus was coming down the street, and you could push your wife out of the way to save her life, but lose yours...would you do it? Of course. Well, this is the same. How much pain are you willing to endure? Do you have the same love for her as Christ has for you? If you dont, then you have a lot of work to do.

God doesnt ask of us to do things that we cant do. If He tells us to do something, He will also give us the power to do so. So, call on Him. Lean on Him. Ask Him for the answers.

You see, we all have a lot of work to do. And it really doesnt matter what our spouses do or dont do. You do what you are supposed to do. God will take care of the rest.

In His arms.