</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">they know what they are doing is wrong. That is why they can't face us. That is why they act so completely irrational towards us. But in the end, it is not them (OW/OM) who we expect anything from. It is the men and women who we marry and vow faithfulness to forever.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, as low character individuals OPs simply take advantage of an opportunity and they have no attachment to the other member of the marriage. Sometimes they know the other part but that does not stop them. In a pseudo-mathematical sense------ in the end the WS is 100% responsible.

The issue of WS is complex------------ and you see many wayward men and women causing the most severe devastation to the BS. This is something they would not do to a friend, a relative, or even a stranger. In many instances this is done with the full intent to cause harm. However, in many instances this is done because the WS themselves are flawed to such a degree that they rationalize their actions in a near psychotic manner. Lets face some WS lose contact with reality and engage in activities that are highly uncharacteristic of their personalities. In fact WS could not do the betrayal they perpetrate on the BS to another person. This betrayal requires a very specific dysfunction that can only be seen in a sentimental relationship. Only the BS can be the victim of this crime------- no one else!

This type of severe betrayal is a paradox of our human nature where we have inherent evolutional tendencies to copulate with more than one partner, but at the same time hurt like crazy if this is done to us by our mate.

IMHO, the OP does not face the same confusing emotional paradox. The OP is simply a scavenger and most of his or her moves are calculated. OP could easily engage someone in the open or someone behind closed doors----- this is a decision they make on their own and they are not psychotic.

... but...

LM, what difference does it make who's to blame?

That's what I don't understand. Everyone is "at fault" - even me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Suppose you're right. Should we hang a "A" around my W's neck and sew one on every item of clothes - and shun her? Should we fine her a few thou?

It seems like a wasted effort to look for somebody to blame.

-AD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stan-ley:
In a sense they care greater cowards than the wayward spouse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stan, I can't remember if this is true for Myrta, but most affairs involve 2 married adulterors. Both are WSs and both are OPs.

So, the "greater cowards" of which you speak are often also someone else's wayward spouse.

Pep

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

I can and do expect others to share certain values, and if they do not, then I would not hesitate to blame them for their character defects. These values include believing that it is wrong to steal, to murder, and to commit adultery, among others.

Would you say that you wouldn't expect others to share your values about murder, and therefore it is ok for them to shoot their grandfather, because they never promised not to?

If not sharing your values absolves them of all responsibility, why is it not ok for your spouse to believe that vows are made to be broken?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AD:
<strong> ...
But, still he is not blameless in this.

He knew she was engaged to marry me. He knew she had married me. At that time, he intended to become a missionary! So, he was, shall we say, under the obligation to the church to behave in a manner consistent with his "calling". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (I think his only "calling" was on the phone with my W.)

But... I do understand your point of view, LM. OM had no particular, personal obligation to me - but my W did.

-AD </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I should correct myself here. He will certainly carry a heavy "blame" burden in the eyes of God and someday will have to face the consequences of his actions. There is no doubt about that. When I say "blamless"....I mean solely for OUR WS having and continuing an affair and the affair and continued contact affecting recovery. The OP only has the power that our WS gives them. If the WS "cuts power"....they cease to exist. The OP's entire lifeline is in the hands of the WS...hence my opinion of why the WS alone bears responsibility.

Once again, just my opinion. I am sorry that fresh BS (I am one myself ya know) find my opinions upsetting. Sorry, but I can't cut "slack" here. I am not sure what slack I should be cutting. If you disagree, that is A-OK. It is all good.


Cheers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

Blame is a pointless to assign. It serves no purpose but to create hate and anger. Responsibility is a horse of a different color. Each of us, is 100% responsible for our own actions...WS, BS, OP.

Lemonman, let me give you some of many examples where responsibility...yes even for the marriage is shared by the OP. There are many situations on these boards where the BS and OP KNOW eachother WELL...where the OP has an allegiance both to the BS and the marriage...best friends, sisters, cousins, members of the same church, scout den or business partners...the list goes on...I've seen them all. Many of these same people stood up in church at the marriages in questions and collectively vowed to help support the very marriage that they helped to compromise.

But aside from that....if we remove morality from the equation....morality is religious based....a group of people get together and decide what is right and wrong based on religious teachings or writings. That's where sin and blame come in.

But for a second, lets leave morality out of this...because not everyone is religious...like myselfe...consider ethics...which is logic based. We each have personal ethics that define our individual character...and then we have group ethics. Our group ethics are what we use to make laws. In most states, adultery is sinful (by religious standards), but not inlawful. Even the states that still have adultery laws....rarely enforce them. Some of us have religious constraints...but all of us have ethical constraints...because we live in a society of human beings. When we act is ways that promote our gain at the expense of someone else...we are ethically irresponsible.

I am currently reading "Ethics for the New Milennium" by the Dalai Lama. He talks about love and compassion being the greatest sources of happiness. Compassion being the humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting to do something about it, as well as a deep awareness of, and sympathy for, another's suffering. He believes, that we cannot be loving and compassionate without using ethical restraint or ignoring the fact that both directly and indirectly, our actions affect others. We are...like it or not...responsible for how our actions affect others.

I do see a huge correlation between happiness and compassion. That compassion drives me to consider the suffering of others...as I hope they will consider mine.

I DO NOT think OPs who are unaware of a marriage responsible for simply "devining" the truth. But once the truth is known...each of us bears some responsibility for the wellfare of others as members of this race. We are all responsible for the children of this world and the ripples caused by our actions. Percentages will vary wildly....but no one involved in an EMR has 0% responsibility.

AD

Me thinks LM is not wondering so much what we think...but how.

The question is simply posed in a manner so comfortable to our culture where everthing must be quantified.

How do you quantify blame regarding decision on a percentage basis...it's ludicrous. You either do it or you don't. One may have put more effort into it, but it's simply a yay or nay decision.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> ... the OP OWES US and our marriage NOTHING....so in the true sense of the word, they have committed NO CRIME here. Are they moraly reprehensible scumbags?......yep...but that is not a crime here. They are NOT married to us, and took NO VOWS with us. I disagree wholeheartedly with your post...but can accept that we can agree to disagree. It is all good. Thank you for your opinions.

LM </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LM,

The vows were between 2 people H and W. When the OP is allowed to intrude on that union, then they are trespassing where they don't belong. Is it a crime? In some places, yes..... according to some writings, it is worse than a crime, it is a sin.

Now to the blame, well if they intrude and trespass, they bare some of the blame. NOt all or most of it but definitely some.

You may not agree and that is your perogative (sp??). Violent acts, threats, extortion, stealing, cheating are criminal acts to various degress and the law changes from local to local. Does it make it a crime? Where it breaks a law, yes. Man's laws allow the same crime to be committed in one location with no consquences, does that mean there is no blame?

L.

Stan, I can't remember if this is true for Myrta, but most affairs involve 2 married adulterors. Both are WSs and both are OPs.

OM was unattached.

Myrta has implied that the presence of a wife might have been a deterrent.

Getting caught up in the blame game isn't part of my recovery and serves no purpose.

Pre-MB...I may have blamed myself...for being so stupid and naive.

Post-MB...if it isn't part of making my marriage better..there's no room at the inn for it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Myrta has implied that the presence of a wife might have been a deterrent.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It rarely is Stan....

There are ways to make it "OK" in one's mind... "They are married on paper only" "Their marriage was dead before I got involved."

Myrta just happened to fall for a single man ... but had he been married, I doubt that would have stopped her. SHE was married, and it didn't stop her!!! Ergo, marriage was not an effective deterrent.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> [QUOTE]Originally posted by lemonman:
[qb] ...
Now to the blame, well if they intrude and trespass, they bare some of the blame. NOt all or most of it but definitely some.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, they may "trespass" on the marriage...but they were given the rights (WRONGLY) to come into your house and lives by the WS. Yeah, it it may seem like "trespassing" to you, but your WH let them do this. That is my point. I wanted to beat the living hell out of the OM in my life and for a while believed that if he just would leave our lives, we could have recovered......WRONG. I used to think that my xWW could be on the "straight and narrow" if the OM would stop manipulating her. That was very faulty thinking on my part. I should rephrase myslelf here. IN MY SITUATION....I HOLD MY xWW 100% solely responsible for commiting adultery and solely reponsible for choosing to betray our marriage MULTIPLE times.....and act as the catalyst for our marriages destruction. I hold the OM "blameless". He is not a factor in why the marriage died. My WW did what she did of her own free will and volition. I used to hate the Om....but not anymore. He is a coward and a cheat and a liar....but he didn't end my marriage....my wife did. In my situation, I lay 100% blame for the ACT of the affair on her and 0% for the OM. Hey, but that is just me. Obviously others see it different, why don't we just leave it at that.

Cheers

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> LM

IN the end though, I agree with an above poster. When one recovers..."blaming" doesn't serve a purpose, it only hinders this. I guess I should have just phrased this question to those of us who have divorced and/or just found out.

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

Pep,

You said, "Ergo, marriage was not an effective deterrent." I agree. I was married at the time of my A, and so was my OW. The justification (if you will) was that she drilled it into my head that she was lacking in SO many areas regarding her marriage. She didn't have adoration, respect, lust, need, etc. At the same time, I didn't think that my M would suffer if I put in time and attention to her, since my H and I were always in sync. I had enough "love to spread around". So, no, marriage isn't always a deterrent.

CC

OK, if marriage was a deterrent, wouldn't that eliminate affairs?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Fraggles,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Fraggles:
<strong> OK, if marriage was a deterrent, wouldn't that eliminate affairs?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No... just as a locked door, though a deterrent to thefts, doesn't completely prevent them.

-AD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta just happened to fall for a single man ... but had he been married, I doubt that would have stopped her. SHE was married, and it didn't stop her!!! Ergo, marriage was not an effective deterrent.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I explained in one post above. The dynamic of betraying a spouse is unique and different from the dynamic of betraying someone other than the spouse.

As a young man I was tempted by a married woman whose husband was in a wheel chair do to MS. I could not have an affair because I simply could not get the image of the poor guy in a wheel chair as the victim of infidelity. I did not think about my wife as a victim. For some strange reason I felt very sad about the H in a wheel chair. Maybe I am simply going by my own experience.

I think my wife may have encountered an OM’s wife a tough hurdle to jump.

LM, people let go of attachments in different ways, in different time frames. And people grieve, and in their grief they try to have hope, which is always a good thing.

GC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
I asked the question because I see so many people posting things like " if the OW would just leavfe my husban alone, we could recover"... I guess I just really disagree with the principle that the OP had anything to do with the affair happening.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totaly disagree too,
but, isn't it easier, shift the blame?

How someone can say that both WS and OP are immoral (will avoid a very vulgar word <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), but the one (OP) is to be blamed for and the other one (WS) is beloved and dearly wanted back?

Who would say "I want my slut back to me"!
For we know that company loves misery <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So, accordingly, I don't blame OW... she or someone else, what's the difference?... her own moral - who cares! one of million like that nowadays... and no way we can change them...
All we can change is to chose with whom we spend a part/the rest of our lives...

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]</small>

I blame my WH 100% for starting the friendship with OW. . .he was giving her golf lessons and meeting her during the day at the driving range. He did all this without telling me. It made him feel good that he was improving her golf. I blame the OW 100% for initiating the sex because I know that my WH wouldn't have initiated it. He has been totally impotent for 20 years now and has to use viagra to have sex. There was nothing spontanious about their sex. . .he had to literally "make and appointment with her". . take his viagra tablet and then have sex. He would never have suggested sex in the first place. . .because of his impotency but once she suggested it I blame him 100% for agreeing to it.

In general, OPs like to remain obscure. Yet others want a bit of the pie (WS' home, $$, possessions, family, status, etc.), in those cases when those OPs seek out and literally attack those aspects of the family (ie: move into the family home, have sex there, steal property, file false charges in attempt to ruin reputations, have an OC as a tool to keep control of the WS, demand $$, stalking the family, pretend t/b the spouse....sign their name and asked t/b called as such, etc.)...... are those actions blameless also?

Of course the key link is the WS, whether admitted or not, the WS opens the family up to these types of attacks from anyone (including the OP). My question is the door is open, the OP chooses to step in and takes advantage of the opportunity to commit even a crime.......are the OPs actions blameless?

See that is what some of the BS' here are dealing with. Maybe not all listed, maybe more or less..... for those BS' I would think they would find it very hard NOT to put some blame on the OP. After all, was the OP raped (either OM or OW)..... did those legs open under protest? I think not. More like willing accomplices, given to passion and always in heat.

JMHO,
L.

<small>[ January 21, 2005, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>