What % do you blame the OW/OM ? - Marriage Builders® Forums

Just curious folks, what % do you hold the OW/OM responsible for the infidelity in you marrigae and your recovery struggles. I am interested in what people's thoughts are on this.

I blame OM 100%.
And I blame my wife 100%.

GC

Zero.

I don't blame OW for any part of what happened.

It is the way that this lifestyle is led.

I hate what she has done with my H. I hate knowing he has been just as deeply inside her as me. I feel sexually insignificant because of it, but blame? No.

I hate her because her existence hurts me. What they have done together hurts me. I would like for her to suffer, as I suffer..but it isn't going to happen. She has never been married, and has likely no idea what sort of destruction her actions and lifestyle have wrought, in my life..and the lives of all the other BSs she has been the OW to.

But blame? No. She is who she is, and that is what she does.

My H should have known better..he DID know better..and he did it, and her..anyway.

I judge her, but I do not blame her.

Noodle

[typos]

[ January 20, 2005, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]

I used to. I still have no respect for them, any more than they respected me.

But blame? Naw. What does it matter to me who a bunch of strangers are having sex with?

Who FU is, however, is of great importance to me.

-OAK

I do hold SOME blame for her. She could've done the right thing. We weren't friends, but were better than acquaintances, know what I mean?

But I still hold him 100% accountable.

I don't blame her at all for the problem in trying to reconcile.

But I'm like noodle in that I still have and can't imagine NOT having much animosity towards her.

lemon,

I used to blame him a lot but not anymore. I still feel he is an amoral man. I gave him several instances in which he could have backtracked and proferred an apology, but he did not. I am also just now becoming completely aware of my WW's depth of deception and I count myself and him as pawns in her bizarre take on reality.

While the OM is represenatative of the whole WW/OM/ triumvirate of evil and amorallity, he truly plays(played, will play) a tiny role when the dust clears.

[ January 20, 2005, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Cymanca ]

For me, the OW is nothing. I don't know her but have spoken to her. Her behaviour was pathetic for a grown woman and I don't like her at all. But as for the A, I blame my husband. He was the one who had my trust, loyalty and love. So, all my animosity is directed at him - probably 80% him, 20% OW.

I use to blame the OW a LOT- but not anymore. I use to think that there was no way my H would do this. Now do not get me wrong I still dispise the OP for being a willing component in the whole A (remember she was my "friend") but my H is 100% responsible for his own decisions and actions. No one made him break our vows and no one makes him behave the way he does.

I am in the camp that the OW/OM is NEVER even 1% responsible for an affair. I asked the question because I see so many people posting things like " if the OW would just leavfe my husban alone, we could recover"...or especially on the preg/OC board..."I trust him...not her". I guess I just really disagree with the principle that the OP had anything to do with the affair happening. They don't force our spouses to cheat or maintain contact. They don't !!!! There is one unfortunate BS who was struggling one on of the boards becasue SOMEHOW the OW was getting her husbands cell phone number each time he changed it after contact. It is comments like this that make me shriek...HELLO>>>>>>HELLO......IThey do not OWE us any responsibility...as they are not married to us. DO I think OP are vermin...your damn right I do...but in the end, they hold NO RESPONSIBILITY in an affair or struggling recovery. That onus should be placed 100% square on the WS for their actions in having an affair. ( this is not to say that recovery os all on the WS). I am talking about somehitng completely different here.

If everyone is married, there's one affair, two WSs, and two OPs.

Nobody is to blame, and everybody is to blame. Hm.

Doesn't add up, does it? Arithmetic is no good here...

GC

I blame both the OW and my H an equal amount. Well, I might put a little more blame my H's way.

What I don't get is that my H showed OW pictures of me and my kids. Told OW he loved me. Told OW he thought I was beautiful. Told OW that his feelings for her were not the same as they were in their first A together (in his first M-he thought he loved OW). Both OW and H told me this stuff (without knowledge of what each other had said).

OW still had sex with him.

Once I notified her H, OW tried to change her tune and said that she and my H had deep feelings for each other.

As a woman, I can't imagine having sex with any guy, no matter the attraction, if he said all those things about another woman.

My H was a serial cheater. He thought he loved all the OW at one time or another. OW was one of many. She doesn't seem to get that.

sss

[ January 20, 2005, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: stillsosad ]

I blame OW 0% for the affair.
I do blame her 100% for the things she has DONE during the affair (coming to the house, threatening me, lying, etc). I don't blame her for my husbands actions, but I blame her for HER part and her actions.
I blame her for trying to take my place in life, and I blame my husband for not seeing the reality of the situation.

Danielle

Hmmmmm the blame game. I blame him, I blame her....I guess I blame them equally, but I love him....and if she died I wouldn't even be a little bit sorry.

I think she is a sorry excuse for a human being, knowing full well that he was married, and had children.....she's known us both for about 6 years (She obviously knows him better than me). I hate her.....and I have never said I hate a soul on this earth.

Today in group, they were talking about forgiveness...that it's not really a gift to the person...and the ways you achieve it, etc. I said "Tell me, how do you forgive someone that is repeatedly kicking you in the teeth?!" She said you have to set boundaries. Well I have no boundaries for the OW, I will have boundaries in Plan B, but right now I'm exposed to all this miscellaneous bullsh*t.

You know, my friends are pretty p.o.ed about this too....I have to BEG them not to go into her candy store and screw with her....or beat her up......or spraypaint homewrecker across her car...ETC. I'm like "NOOOO Leave her alone...that won't help me" When in reality I'd like nothing better than to make her life a living hell.

She screwed with what's mine, she messed with my family....that doesn't bode well with me....the stupid slut didn't have to spread her legs did she?!?!?! Yes my husband is also to blame, and so am I, I fully accept my blame in this, which is why I would consider any plan at all, my normal reaction would be to tell him to go F himself. Which he probably assumed I would do, which is why he hid it so long.

My normal reaction would also be to beat her to a bloody pulp, and it's everything I can do not to do that......it sucks to know you are capable of doing something, but you can't do it.....arrrrgh. I am fully aware this would solve nothing....but it makes me wonder, when I'm screwing with her bliss....how are the benefits of having an affair with my husband going to outweigh the drawbacks?

I am going to find out about "alienation of affection"....and if I can I'll sue her [censored] (Not until after plan B....if he files on me), hope she enjoys her house while she can. And if he does eventually get the divorce from me (Cuz I will stall it as long as possible) I WILL Have that HOTROD, maybe I'll sell it, maybe I'll have someone video tape me smashing the hell out of it with a sledgehammer, maybe I'll just drive it around....paint it pink LMFAO....not sure yet.

But I am hellbent that I will get my husband back..........and when I'm hellbent, very little will stop me.

So I'll wait for their little web of lies to fall apart, then her [censored] is mine.

So, in conclusion, it would appear I don't necessarily put All of the blame on her.....but I wouldn't spit up her @ss if her guts were on fire.

-Caren

Caren you are too funny- excuse me I choked on my ice cream- you always seem to find humor, I know how you feel however. I have not seen OP in a year now (WOW- already) but just hearing her name still makes my blood boil- can not imagine what I will do when we cross paths- I pray we never do or I just might get myself in some duck soup!

IdonÂ´t blame OW.She is what she is: a despicable amoral cheater, and thatÂ´sprobably what she will be all her life.I blame WH 100%.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CarenMc:
 So, in conclusion, it would appear I don't necessarily put All of the blame on her.....but I wouldn't spit up her @ss if her guts were on fire.

-Caren <hr /></blockquote>Caren:

DOes your WH GET ANY BLAME her or have to accept any of the responsibilty of leaving a wife with 3 children ????? I think your mindset of being "hell bent" on getting him back at all costs makes you a little fogged IMO. The "slut" as you say DID NOT make him do anything nor does she MAKE him stay with her now and treat you like a piece of cow dung. YOu think suing her in the end for "alienation of affection" is gonna do anything productive for you? It will costs you a ton of money and soil your heart and soul as you will never be able to move on. For the record, I think you will get him back eventually. It will be easier for you to recover also as you can BOTH blame the OW for the whole sordid mess and move on easier. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I love your spunk and enjoy your posts alot , but you are in a tad of BS "fog" girl. Sorry to say.

LM

Lemon as always you make a good point. With a heart so full of bitterness it is hard to find peace and happiness.

100/100!

FR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

caren,

WOW... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I guess that anger management isn't coming along..huh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

committed

IThey do not OWE us any responsibility...as they are not married to us.

lemonman,

I have been saying that since I first stumbled into this site years ago. I am so glad to see a BS post that...*~whew*~...it's a relief to see someone here that thinks that also.

That onus should be placed 100% square on the WS for their actions in having an affair. ( this is not to say that recovery os all on the WS).

I posted that too...only to be countered with..."well, my W/H was 'manipulated' into an affair by that lowlife".

How's that for letting their H/W OFF the hook? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I am not going to get in a battle over my comments...others might take offense...but, I am sure you don't.

committed

LM,

Please be more specific. What type of blame are you surveying?

For the A
for the demise of the M
for being alive
for losing their pants/panties in public places
for speaking fog
for becoming an alien
for the attempts to take more than the WS
for attacks on the family, for stealing
for lying
for cheating
for filing false RO changes

for participation in the environment creating an OC

for ruining days, weeks, months and years out of the BS and family's life without their consent

for rendering another's family disabled financially, emotionally and morally, etc.

Let's see, probably 13 out of the 14 items listed above. That would make it OP: 92.8% WS: 107.3%

Why? Because you can't have an A without an OP. If you think you can have an A w/o an OP, then there's a place with soft walls that speak to you.

OPs like to think they are NOT responsible for the hurt brought on the family by the A. But that logic is coming from someone whose put is up a WS' azz. How good do you think their vision is? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

To try and reason with such will only tire out the sane. The insane have the strength to go on much longer..... why? Because the insane drain all around them and suck up their energy then move forward to create more chaos.

JMHO,
L.

committed,
This is MY personal take on it. OW is a vindictive, persuasive, person who WILL intimidate you and convince you of what she wants you to think. That is the kind of person she is, probably always will be. I am positive that she is manipulating my WH. He acts completely different when he is not around her, or told by her to do something. Many of the things he does to hurt the children and I emotionally are things that she has asked him to do.
HOWEVER, that DOES NOT make it her fault, or her responsibility. Most everyone else can see the pattern, and it is HIS fault that he can't. It is HIS fault for not using his OWN head and deciding what he wants in life. Through out this affair he has lost his voice, and his choice. IT WAS HIS CHOICE TO LOOSE HIS CHOICE! He is allowing the OW to manipulate him. She is TRYING to do the same to me, but I am not allowing it. He did, his fault. He CHOOSE to be with her, and not his children. It doesn't matter what she did or said to make him do that, it was his choice. She is crazy, and one day he will see that. It just may be too late.

Edited to add:
I DO blame her 100% for the things she outright does herself to harm my children and I emotionally. I blame her 100% for allowing her children to call my house and threaten me. I blame her 100% for her actions.

[ January 20, 2005, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: DanigirlinVA ]

I blame my WW 100% for breaking our vows, my soul and my trust. I don't blame OM for the A, maybe a little for the post A and still for not being an honorable, moral, member of society, but I don't think that was the question that LM was asking.

Native

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orchid:
 LM,

Please be more specific. What type of blame are you surveying?

For the A
for the demise of the M
for being alive
for losing their pants/panties in public places
for speaking fog
for becoming an alien
for the attempts to take more than the WS
for attacks on the family, for stealing
for lying
for cheating
for filing false RO changes

for participation in the environment creating an OC

for ruining days, weeks, months and years out of the BS and family's life without their consent

for rendering another's family disabled financially, emotionally and morally, etc.

Let's see, probably 13 out of the 14 items listed above. That would make it OP: 92.8% WS: 107.3%

Why? Because you can't have an A without an OP. If you think you can have an A w/o an OP, then there's a place with soft walls that speak to you.

OPs like to think they are NOT responsible for the hurt brought on the family by the A. But that logic is coming from someone whose put is up a WS' azz. How good do you think their vision is? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

To try and reason with such will only tire out the sane. The insane have the strength to go on much longer..... why? Because the insane drain all around them and suck up their energy then move forward to create more chaos.

JMHO,
L. <hr /></blockquote>Orch:

Well, I get your point.............What I am asking is about the affair and continuatiuon of it. ALL of your lists after that are IRRELEVANT if your WS does not CHOOSE to cheat on you and the family. Yeah, many OW/OM are psycho's but the FACT is, the WS is the one who opened the door and let them into our life's. Hence, in the end, the OW/OM should hold NO RESPONSIBILITY. That is all on the WS. I realize my opinion is probably very unpopular here (so what else is new <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )...but I BELIEVE any attempt to shift any blame on the OW is all rationalization. Hey, just my opinion. Take it for what it is worth. I feel kind of "dirty" for seemingly taking the OW/OM side...but IMHO I think there is too much "emphasis" for the principle that the "dirty slimy OW/OM is manipulating my husband/wife into doing this to us and the kids". I just posted my poll to get a sense of what people thought about this. There is no right or wrong answer, just opinions...I realize this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ January 20, 2005, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]

Blame? I don't blame the OW. She's a needy twit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> FWH? He was insane and I think its a pretty good defense. He owns the A 100% though. He was 100% guilty of that, but forgiveable because of insanity.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
-pendragon

LM,

One of the postive points of MB is the ability to speak or write our thoughts in an anonymus environment. You are certainly entitled to yours.

As for the OP's general responsibility, it s/b recognized, you can't have an A w/o an OP of sorts.

Some OPs like to hide behind the fact that they 'did not know the WS was married'. Well you can't be a WS unless you are married.

It is a web entwined due to deceit. WS and OPs plan, manipulate and execute direct attacks on the family in various degrees.

An accomplice carrys some responsibility in a crime. Sometimes they are just the driver or the one holding the gun but they are still a part of the crime.

In the A, the OP fulfills that role to various degrees. Some are more agreesive and psychotic than others.

To your question, there isn't a straight answer because of those variables. Safe to say, you can't have an A without a WS and OP. Given that statement, there is a percentage of responsibility with both.

What is interesting is that several of your posters went over the 100% mark. Including me. Wonder why that is? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orchid:

What is interesting is that several of your posters went over the 100% mark. Including me. Wonder why that is? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

L. <hr /></blockquote>LOL....a statistical impossibility....just like the old saying..." I will give it 110%". No such thing. I confirmed my suspicions with this thread. I think it was a good thread and certainly food for thought. I am certainly NOT disputing the fact that it takes two to tango and that you cannot have an affair without an OP.....once again, the OP OWES US and our marriage NOTHING....so in the true sense of the word, they have committed NO CRIME here. Are they moraly reprehensible scumbags?......yep...but that is not a crime here. They are NOT married to us, and took NO VOWS with us. I disagree wholeheartedly with your post...but can accept that we can agree to disagree. It is all good. Thank you for your opinions.

LM

LM,

I disagree with the assertion that the OP owes us nothing.

We are all part of a society or culture. Each of us lives within constraints which are imposed by that culture. We owe it to every other member of society to "play by the rules". According to your logic, a person who had made no vows or promises can do whatever (s)he wants and is blameless. I don't buy that.

The idea of the "Golden Rule" is probably present in almost all cutures - and not only Christian ones.

A person who wants to someday be in a monogomous relationship with a person of the opposite sex owes to society the respect of such relationships between other men and women.

No man is an island.

-AD

[ January 20, 2005, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: AD ]

I "blame" OW 0% for my H's personal decision to engage himself in an affair.

She threw bait, he bit and swallowed. His responsibility. Not hers.

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AD:
 LM,

I disagree with the assertion that the OP owes us nothing.

We owe it to every other member of society to "play by the rules". According to your logic, a person who had made no vows or promises can do whatever (s)he wants and is blameless. I don't buy that.

-AD <hr /></blockquote>Well..my friend....unfortunately....."playing by the rules" would be great in an ideal world, but I am just being realistic here. Ofoucrse noone can do whatever they want in our culture....but infidelity is not a crime in the true sense of the word (I wish it was). In God's eyes...they (WS and OP) will pay for this, but with respect to our marriages...the OP is not responsible in any way, shape, or form for our WS betraying us.

"Blameless"....well I guess that is open to discussion. Once again, I think you are missing my point. When it comes to infidelity and YOUR MARRIAGE VOWS being broken......the OP in my opinion...is blameless. The WS is the one who gives the OP any power...any role...any ounce of cause in our marriage. The assault on the family, the fincancial impacy...yada yada yada are ALL brought about by the WS CHOICE in betraying us and GIVING the OP any power. That is my point and opinion. I can accept that you disagree with me. That is ok. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 I "blame" OW 0% for my H's personal decision to engage himself in an affair.

She threw bait, he bit and swallowed. His responsibility. Not hers.

Pep <hr /></blockquote>Thank YOu. This is all I wanted to say.

once again, the OP OWES US and our marriage NOTHING....so in the true sense of the word, they have committed NO CRIME here. Are they morally reprehensible scumbags?......yep...but that is not a crime here. They are NOT married to us, and took NO VOWS with us.

If that is the case------- then why the OP hides in the shadow and is fearful of been caught by the BS?

In a sense they care greater cowards than the wayward spouse. If they owe us nothing whey do they hide from us? Why are they so afraid to talk to us? Fearful of answering a simple email----------- why do they hide?

When an OM hides behind the skirt of the WW who is also hiding from the H he is admitting he is causing harm to a fellow human being.

If the marriage of someone else means nothing to an OP------------- why do they engage in deceit? Why do some OPs pretend to be friendly to the betrayed spouse while having the affair with the WS? Is it because they owe us nothing? Obviously they owe us decency and respect. They owe us the same treatment they expect from others.

At least many WS rationalize the affair by rewriting marital history and disliking the BS. But the OP is simply there to take advantage of the opportunity. Perhaps a deed that is lower in the morality scale.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stan-ley:
 once again, the OP OWES US and our marriage NOTHING....so in the true sense of the word, they have committed NO CRIME here. Are they morally reprehensible scumbags?......yep...but that is not a crime here. They are NOT married to us, and took NO VOWS with us.

If that is the case------- then why the OP hides in the shadow and is fearful of been caught by the BS?

In a sense they care greater cowards than the wayward spouse. If they owe us nothing whey do they hide from us? Why are they so afraid to talk to us? Fearful of answering a simple email----------- why do they hide?

When an OM hides behind the skirt of the WW who is also hiding from the H he is admitting he is causing harm to a fellow human being.

If the marriage of someone else means nothing to an OP------------- why do they engage in deceit? Why do some OPs pretend to be friendly to the betrayed spouse while having the affair with the WS? Is it because they owe us nothing? Obviously they owe us decency and respect. They owe us the same treatment they expect from others.

At least many WS rationalize the affair by rewriting marital history and disliking the BS. But the OP is simply there to take advantage of the opportunity. Perhaps a deed that is lower in the morality scale. <hr /></blockquote>Stan (my man <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ):

I agree with everything you say, but in REALITY, I disagree with your statement:

" Obviously they owe us decency and respect. They owe us the same treatment they expect from others."

Well, sadly, you can not expect that everyone who is involved in our live's is going to have these values...HOWEVER........this is something that we should EXPECT and DEMAND from OUR SPOUSES. When they betray these values and let an OW/OM into our lives (and children's lives), they take 100% sole responsibility for all of the fallout from the affair. It doesn't matter one iota what the OP says or does or how they run their lives. We were betrayed by our WS and it is by THEIR ACTIONS and CHOICES that we and our family suffer. OW/OM are cowards, and in essence morally reprehensible human beings for willfuly enaging in an affair.......deep down inside all of the foul of their hearts,,,,they know what they are doign is wrong. That is why they can't face us. That is why they act so completely irrational towards us. But in the end, it is not them (OW/OM) who we expect anything from. It is the men and women who we marry and vow faithfulness to forever.

Infidelity is a crime in every sense of the word, including being punishable by jail time in a number of states.

It makes no difference whether or not any of us have specifically vowed not to do something - if it is wrong, it is wrong. I never vowed not to steal your car, but that doesn't mean it is ok for me to drive off in it. If your employee had signed a contract committing him to an assignment, no matter how long, it would be wrong if I were to attempt to bribe him to leave - in spite of the fact that I did not sign that contract.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 I "blame" OW 0% for my H's personal decision to engage himself in an affair.

She threw bait, he bit and swallowed. His responsibility. Not hers.

Pep <hr /></blockquote>Thank YOu. This is all I wanted to say. <hr /></blockquote>LM...

I think you need to show some respect for the process. I have the benifit of time and healing in order to have today's perspective.

Someone else who is still in the 2-year post D-day time frame cannot be EXPECTED to have the same attitude I have.

Cut people some slack.

Pep

LM,

I think I catch your drift.

Since my W is a desirable woman, there will always be some man who wants to have an affair with her.

It was up to her (and her alone) to prevent that.

If that's what you're saying, I agree.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-AD

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 I "blame" OW 0% for my H's personal decision to engage himself in an affair.

She threw bait, he bit and swallowed. His responsibility. Not hers.

Pep <hr /></blockquote>Thank YOu. This is all I wanted to say. <hr /></blockquote>LM...

Cut people some slack.

Pep <hr /></blockquote>YAWN.........."oh Lemonman...cut some people some slack"...yawn, God this gets old.

Cut some slack.....FOR WHAT ?. I asked a question and gave my opinion on something.....what is there to cut slack on ? JFC...whatever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AD:
 LM,

I think I catch your drift.

Since my W is a desirable woman, there will always be some man who wants to have an affair with her.

It was up to her (and her alone) to prevent that.

If that's what you're saying, I agree.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-AD <hr /></blockquote>DING DING DING...You got it AD. That is the essence of what I am saying. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

... and further...

In my W's case, she was the one who took most of the initiative for the first couple of years.

Long before we married (before we were engaged), I gave her a phone card (open-ended and billed to me) to call her folks overseas. After she started emailing with this guy, she started calling him - at my expense. She violated my trust in that way before we were even engaged. She didn't have any obligation to only talk to me at that point. She had no committment to an exclusive relationship with me of any kind. But she did have an obligation to use what I gave her for the purpose for which I gave it. If it had been a pre-paid card, she would have been under no obligation to use it only for the purpose I gave it to her, but as it was billed to me, she did.

So, that was not OM's initiative. He didn't have the $$$ to call her.

After we married, she spent $8000 that way (he was in Eastern Europe). I eventually put a stop to it. So, all those hours they spent talking - she dialed the phone.

But, still he is not blameless in this.

He knew she was engaged to marry me. He knew she had married me. At that time, he intended to become a missionary! So, he was, shall we say, under the obligation to the church to behave in a manner consistent with his "calling". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (I think his only "calling" was on the phone with my W.)

But... I do understand your point of view, LM. OM had no particular, personal obligation to me - but my W did.

-AD

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Cut some slack.....FOR WHAT ?<hr /></blockquote>For taking longer to heal

For taking longer to understand

For frustrating you

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />they know what they are doing is wrong. That is why they can't face us. That is why they act so completely irrational towards us. But in the end, it is not them (OW/OM) who we expect anything from. It is the men and women who we marry and vow faithfulness to forever.
<hr /></blockquote>I agree, as low character individuals OPs simply take advantage of an opportunity and they have no attachment to the other member of the marriage. Sometimes they know the other part but that does not stop them. In a pseudo-mathematical sense------ in the end the WS is 100% responsible.

The issue of WS is complex------------ and you see many wayward men and women causing the most severe devastation to the BS. This is something they would not do to a friend, a relative, or even a stranger. In many instances this is done with the full intent to cause harm. However, in many instances this is done because the WS themselves are flawed to such a degree that they rationalize their actions in a near psychotic manner. Lets face some WS lose contact with reality and engage in activities that are highly uncharacteristic of their personalities. In fact WS could not do the betrayal they perpetrate on the BS to another person. This betrayal requires a very specific dysfunction that can only be seen in a sentimental relationship. Only the BS can be the victim of this crime------- no one else!

This type of severe betrayal is a paradox of our human nature where we have inherent evolutional tendencies to copulate with more than one partner, but at the same time hurt like crazy if this is done to us by our mate.

IMHO, the OP does not face the same confusing emotional paradox. The OP is simply a scavenger and most of his or her moves are calculated. OP could easily engage someone in the open or someone behind closed doors----- this is a decision they make on their own and they are not psychotic.

... but...

LM, what difference does it make who's to blame?

That's what I don't understand. Everyone is "at fault" - even me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Suppose you're right. Should we hang a "A" around my W's neck and sew one on every item of clothes - and shun her? Should we fine her a few thou?

It seems like a wasted effort to look for somebody to blame.

-AD

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stan-ley:
In a sense they care greater cowards than the wayward spouse. <hr /></blockquote>Stan, I can't remember if this is true for Myrta, but most affairs involve 2 married adulterors. Both are WSs and both are OPs.

So, the "greater cowards" of which you speak are often also someone else's wayward spouse.

Pep

[ January 20, 2005, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

I can and do expect others to share certain values, and if they do not, then I would not hesitate to blame them for their character defects. These values include believing that it is wrong to steal, to murder, and to commit adultery, among others.

Would you say that you wouldn't expect others to share your values about murder, and therefore it is ok for them to shoot their grandfather, because they never promised not to?

If not sharing your values absolves them of all responsibility, why is it not ok for your spouse to believe that vows are made to be broken?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by AD:
 ...
But, still he is not blameless in this.

He knew she was engaged to marry me. He knew she had married me. At that time, he intended to become a missionary! So, he was, shall we say, under the obligation to the church to behave in a manner consistent with his "calling". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (I think his only "calling" was on the phone with my W.)

But... I do understand your point of view, LM. OM had no particular, personal obligation to me - but my W did.

-AD <hr /></blockquote>Well, I should correct myself here. He will certainly carry a heavy "blame" burden in the eyes of God and someday will have to face the consequences of his actions. There is no doubt about that. When I say "blamless"....I mean solely for OUR WS having and continuing an affair and the affair and continued contact affecting recovery. The OP only has the power that our WS gives them. If the WS "cuts power"....they cease to exist. The OP's entire lifeline is in the hands of the WS...hence my opinion of why the WS alone bears responsibility.

Once again, just my opinion. I am sorry that fresh BS (I am one myself ya know) find my opinions upsetting. Sorry, but I can't cut "slack" here. I am not sure what slack I should be cutting. If you disagree, that is A-OK. It is all good.

Cheers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

Blame is a pointless to assign. It serves no purpose but to create hate and anger. Responsibility is a horse of a different color. Each of us, is 100% responsible for our own actions...WS, BS, OP.

Lemonman, let me give you some of many examples where responsibility...yes even for the marriage is shared by the OP. There are many situations on these boards where the BS and OP KNOW eachother WELL...where the OP has an allegiance both to the BS and the marriage...best friends, sisters, cousins, members of the same church, scout den or business partners...the list goes on...I've seen them all. Many of these same people stood up in church at the marriages in questions and collectively vowed to help support the very marriage that they helped to compromise.

But aside from that....if we remove morality from the equation....morality is religious based....a group of people get together and decide what is right and wrong based on religious teachings or writings. That's where sin and blame come in.

But for a second, lets leave morality out of this...because not everyone is religious...like myselfe...consider ethics...which is logic based. We each have personal ethics that define our individual character...and then we have group ethics. Our group ethics are what we use to make laws. In most states, adultery is sinful (by religious standards), but not inlawful. Even the states that still have adultery laws....rarely enforce them. Some of us have religious constraints...but all of us have ethical constraints...because we live in a society of human beings. When we act is ways that promote our gain at the expense of someone else...we are ethically irresponsible.

I am currently reading "Ethics for the New Milennium" by the Dalai Lama. He talks about love and compassion being the greatest sources of happiness. Compassion being the humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting to do something about it, as well as a deep awareness of, and sympathy for, another's suffering. He believes, that we cannot be loving and compassionate without using ethical restraint or ignoring the fact that both directly and indirectly, our actions affect others. We are...like it or not...responsible for how our actions affect others.

I do see a huge correlation between happiness and compassion. That compassion drives me to consider the suffering of others...as I hope they will consider mine.

I DO NOT think OPs who are unaware of a marriage responsible for simply "devining" the truth. But once the truth is known...each of us bears some responsibility for the wellfare of others as members of this race. We are all responsible for the children of this world and the ripples caused by our actions. Percentages will vary wildly....but no one involved in an EMR has 0% responsibility.

AD

Me thinks LM is not wondering so much what we think...but how.

The question is simply posed in a manner so comfortable to our culture where everthing must be quantified.

How do you quantify blame regarding decision on a percentage basis...it's ludicrous. You either do it or you don't. One may have put more effort into it, but it's simply a yay or nay decision.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 ... the OP OWES US and our marriage NOTHING....so in the true sense of the word, they have committed NO CRIME here. Are they moraly reprehensible scumbags?......yep...but that is not a crime here. They are NOT married to us, and took NO VOWS with us. I disagree wholeheartedly with your post...but can accept that we can agree to disagree. It is all good. Thank you for your opinions.

LM <hr /></blockquote>LM,

The vows were between 2 people H and W. When the OP is allowed to intrude on that union, then they are trespassing where they don't belong. Is it a crime? In some places, yes..... according to some writings, it is worse than a crime, it is a sin.

Now to the blame, well if they intrude and trespass, they bare some of the blame. NOt all or most of it but definitely some.

You may not agree and that is your perogative (sp??). Violent acts, threats, extortion, stealing, cheating are criminal acts to various degress and the law changes from local to local. Does it make it a crime? Where it breaks a law, yes. Man's laws allow the same crime to be committed in one location with no consquences, does that mean there is no blame?

L.

Stan, I can't remember if this is true for Myrta, but most affairs involve 2 married adulterors. Both are WSs and both are OPs.

OM was unattached.

Myrta has implied that the presence of a wife might have been a deterrent.

Getting caught up in the blame game isn't part of my recovery and serves no purpose.

Pre-MB...I may have blamed myself...for being so stupid and naive.

Post-MB...if it isn't part of making my marriage better..there's no room at the inn for it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Myrta has implied that the presence of a wife might have been a deterrent.<hr /></blockquote>It rarely is Stan....

There are ways to make it "OK" in one's mind... "They are married on paper only" "Their marriage was dead before I got involved."

Myrta just happened to fall for a single man ... but had he been married, I doubt that would have stopped her. SHE was married, and it didn't stop her!!! Ergo, marriage was not an effective deterrent.

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orchid:
 [QUOTE]Originally posted by lemonman:
[qb] ...
Now to the blame, well if they intrude and trespass, they bare some of the blame. NOt all or most of it but definitely some.

<hr /></blockquote>Well, they may "trespass" on the marriage...but they were given the rights (WRONGLY) to come into your house and lives by the WS. Yeah, it it may seem like "trespassing" to you, but your WH let them do this. That is my point. I wanted to beat the living hell out of the OM in my life and for a while believed that if he just would leave our lives, we could have recovered......WRONG. I used to think that my xWW could be on the "straight and narrow" if the OM would stop manipulating her. That was very faulty thinking on my part. I should rephrase myslelf here. IN MY SITUATION....I HOLD MY xWW 100% solely responsible for commiting adultery and solely reponsible for choosing to betray our marriage MULTIPLE times.....and act as the catalyst for our marriages destruction. I hold the OM "blameless". He is not a factor in why the marriage died. My WW did what she did of her own free will and volition. I used to hate the Om....but not anymore. He is a coward and a cheat and a liar....but he didn't end my marriage....my wife did. In my situation, I lay 100% blame for the ACT of the affair on her and 0% for the OM. Hey, but that is just me. Obviously others see it different, why don't we just leave it at that.

Cheers

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> LM

IN the end though, I agree with an above poster. When one recovers..."blaming" doesn't serve a purpose, it only hinders this. I guess I should have just phrased this question to those of us who have divorced and/or just found out.

[ January 20, 2005, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]

Pep,

You said, "Ergo, marriage was not an effective deterrent." I agree. I was married at the time of my A, and so was my OW. The justification (if you will) was that she drilled it into my head that she was lacking in SO many areas regarding her marriage. She didn't have adoration, respect, lust, need, etc. At the same time, I didn't think that my M would suffer if I put in time and attention to her, since my H and I were always in sync. I had enough "love to spread around". So, no, marriage isn't always a deterrent.

CC

OK, if marriage was a deterrent, wouldn't that eliminate affairs?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Fraggles,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Fraggles:
 OK, if marriage was a deterrent, wouldn't that eliminate affairs?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>No... just as a locked door, though a deterrent to thefts, doesn't completely prevent them.

-AD

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Myrta just happened to fall for a single man ... but had he been married, I doubt that would have stopped her. SHE was married, and it didn't stop her!!! Ergo, marriage was not an effective deterrent.
<hr /></blockquote>As I explained in one post above. The dynamic of betraying a spouse is unique and different from the dynamic of betraying someone other than the spouse.

As a young man I was tempted by a married woman whose husband was in a wheel chair do to MS. I could not have an affair because I simply could not get the image of the poor guy in a wheel chair as the victim of infidelity. I did not think about my wife as a victim. For some strange reason I felt very sad about the H in a wheel chair. Maybe I am simply going by my own experience.

I think my wife may have encountered an OMâ€™s wife a tough hurdle to jump.

LM, people let go of attachments in different ways, in different time frames. And people grieve, and in their grief they try to have hope, which is always a good thing.

GC

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
I asked the question because I see so many people posting things like " if the OW would just leavfe my husban alone, we could recover"... I guess I just really disagree with the principle that the OP had anything to do with the affair happening.<hr /></blockquote>I totaly disagree too,
but, isn't it easier, shift the blame?

How someone can say that both WS and OP are immoral (will avoid a very vulgar word <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), but the one (OP) is to be blamed for and the other one (WS) is beloved and dearly wanted back?

Who would say "I want my slut back to me"!
For we know that company loves misery <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So, accordingly, I don't blame OW... she or someone else, what's the difference?... her own moral - who cares! one of million like that nowadays... and no way we can change them...
All we can change is to chose with whom we spend a part/the rest of our lives...

[ January 20, 2005, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]

I blame my WH 100% for starting the friendship with OW. . .he was giving her golf lessons and meeting her during the day at the driving range. He did all this without telling me. It made him feel good that he was improving her golf. I blame the OW 100% for initiating the sex because I know that my WH wouldn't have initiated it. He has been totally impotent for 20 years now and has to use viagra to have sex. There was nothing spontanious about their sex. . .he had to literally "make and appointment with her". . take his viagra tablet and then have sex. He would never have suggested sex in the first place. . .because of his impotency but once she suggested it I blame him 100% for agreeing to it.

In general, OPs like to remain obscure. Yet others want a bit of the pie (WS' home, $$, possessions, family, status, etc.), in those cases when those OPs seek out and literally attack those aspects of the family (ie: move into the family home, have sex there, steal property, file false charges in attempt to ruin reputations, have an OC as a tool to keep control of the WS, demand $$, stalking the family, pretend t/b the spouse....sign their name and asked t/b called as such, etc.)...... are those actions blameless also?

Of course the key link is the WS, whether admitted or not, the WS opens the family up to these types of attacks from anyone (including the OP). My question is the door is open, the OP chooses to step in and takes advantage of the opportunity to commit even a crime.......are the OPs actions blameless?

See that is what some of the BS' here are dealing with. Maybe not all listed, maybe more or less..... for those BS' I would think they would find it very hard NOT to put some blame on the OP. After all, was the OP raped (either OM or OW)..... did those legs open under protest? I think not. More like willing accomplices, given to passion and always in heat.

JMHO,
L.

[ January 21, 2005, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]

Lemon-

I'm jaded...I'm not trying to act like I'm not, and at this point in the game I blame them both, but I love him, and I hate her....so it throws the scale off balance.

Someone mentioned my anger management....yeah, only been going 3 days....I think it may take a little longer. I told the psychiatrist yesterday when he asked if I was a threat to myself or anyone else, I have been lying when asked that question for MONTHS, yesterday I answered truthfully. I said "Am I a danger to myself, NO, I no longer feel like I want to kill myself, am I a danger to others ABSOLUTELY. I have to avoid the OW at all costs, because I feel hate for her, which is a word I don't like to use when referring to a person, I honestly wouldn't care if she got hit by a bus tommorrow, and hell if I was at the bus stop, I may push her in front of it!" I also said "I've been eating **** for so damn long and saying it tastes good, that I finally reached the point that I can't take it anymore"

I'm broken, I KNOW this. He said "Did you have a Plan?" I said "No, and let me tell you why I had no plan. I work in the trauma unit at XXXXX hospital, and I've seen the failed attempts. It's amazing how damn hard it is to kill yourself, you'd think it'd be easy, but you have to do it just right, or you just end up maming(Sp?) yourself....so no, couldn't decide HOW to do it, just knew death would be easier to accept than the pain" He said "You don't know how many people I've tried to explain that to, and they don't believe me, that it's really rather hard to kill yourself" I said "Well I believe you, I've seen it"

So, HELL yes I blame that stupid skank, I blame her for being ALIVE......is that wrong? LMAO

I'm not saying that if it wasn't her, there wouldn't have been someone else....but I am saying that SHE KNEW he was married....and that demonstrates a moral deficit. HE KNEW he was married too....and that makes him an un****ingbelievable *******.

People in affairs are morally deficient....and it ****** me off.....who do they think they are to go around messing with the lives of their families and others....it's complete ****.

I am not at the point where I feel all forgiving towards the stupid stupid stupid (did I mention stupid) skank.....I don't know that I'll ever be.

I do think I'll get my husband back too, and I don't really think I'll let him blame it all on her.....she's pretty little, I don't think she overpowered and raped him.

*sigh* That's my story, and I'm sticking to it LMAO

-Caren

[ January 21, 2005, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

Lemon-

Hey....also, I totally respect your opinion...I know that you know what you're talking about, and I pray that someday I'll be there, to a place where I can rationally place the blame where it should be placed.

I don't feel you need to be softer in your approach, but I'm pretty tough and can take the tough critcism. I know I'm wrong to feel the way I do, hence the struggle I'm having, knowing on an intellectual level that I should feel one way about this, but on an emotional level being one p.o.ed crazy *****.....I'm fully aware that I am BROADZILLA right now, and I don't like it....all I can say is, I have to work through it, instead of trying to get around it like I have been.

-Caren

[ January 21, 2005, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

I agree with GC, I blame them both 100%.

So what if OM is a reprehensable serial womanising scumbag, my W had to want to have an A with him didn't she ?

Squid is 100% responsible for my hurt though. OM couldn't give a sh1t about me.

good question.

Ps I want OM dead though. Just felt the need to keep up my 100% record there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LMAO Bob....thank you so much, I'm glad I'm not the only one. It doesn't make it right, but it makes me feel less alone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

*sigh* posting here always makes me feel better.

The few times that I've acted on a negative emotion and not posted here have been UGLY....so I've decided I have to first PRAY about what I'm thinking about doing and second get my butt on here and post...so the sane people can tell me I'm being a crazy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-Caren

Lemonman:

What point does this serve with regards to "marriagebuilding"? As star has pointed out---blame is pointless in rebuilding a marriage. Doesn't help. Pepper has illustrated that there's a path and timeline to healing---not everyone (especially those that are dealing with active affair) want to "blame their spouses". Counterproductive to restoring a marriage.

As far as marriages go---yours was a failure. You didn't marriagebuild. You dealt with this by your guts and instincts---and the end result is that you are divorced. But you're around here to offer a "counter" viewpoint. To what---failure? I'm sure you would feel it unethical if I started to give appendectomy lessons to med students by making an incision through the skull and working my way down? Hey---it's an alternative viewpoint---so what if I lose the patient?

I didn't read every reply on this post, so I may be repeating some ideas - maybe not.

Similar to GC with a twist: I assign responsibility for my XW's decision to seek comfort outside of our marriage 100% on her and I assign both her and OM each 100% of the decision to continue the affair.

LM, I'd be interested to see if you can defend your "OP is 0% to blame logic" here.

Keep in mind that my wife was reeling from the death of our 8 year old son after a 5 1/2 year battle with cancer including 2 bone marrow transplants. OM and his family were our biggest supporters - they lived 4 doors away and our children were each other's best friends. They lived, breathed, laughed and cried with us as we struggled through the chills and thrills of dealing with a life threatening disease in a small child. My son got OM's blood on several occasions during his treatment. He and I became very close friends and routinely and soundly beat his son and his high school buddies in driveway basketball. When my son died, OM and his son were obvious choices to be pall bearers.

Afterwards, my wife sought comfort any where she could find it. Enter OM - any port in a storm. He knew very well what was happening. He could have easily suggested to my wife to seek REAL help. He could have alerted me, his friend, of what was happening so that I could get her the real help she needed. But instead he leaped at the chance to allow his ego to get stroked. He unceremoniuosly abandoned his family and helped to wreck mine. I had two beautiful sons and now I have 1/2 of one. He knew dern well what he was doing.

So, I assign him 100% of the responsibility for allowing the affair to take root and 100% of the responsibility for allowing it to continue to the point of destroying two families, already tragically wrought by the death of a child.

Please, please, please make your argument that he is not responsible whatsoever.

Go ahead. Make my day.

My FWW allowed the intruder to come into our marriage and for this she was 100% guilty. When she graciously tried to end the affair with the OM, he became a very aggressive in his pursuit to keep her. He fought hard to the very end and even showed up in the parking lot of our MC to attempt to disrupt our quest to repair our marriage.

He has zero morals.

I blame my WH and OW both 100%. Ow found out he was married and continued the affair. She could have stopped it then. I think both of them are responsible for what happened. If the OW would have left when she found out my WH was married I may be working on recovery....instead I'm heading for divorce. Neither one of them have any decency or integrity!

I blame both and am trying to get over this deceit, the FOG has envloped him my WH. He thinks she is miss wonderful the *****. After last night I am ready to call her and say you can have him. I am tired of fighting for him -two years in the dark -but I knw in my heat. Now he is trying to say it only went on for a few short months. What a liar he is and she is as well. He admits yesterday HOW SORRY HIS WAS And realizes how deceitful it was then defends her. They were borth married - question is Do I really want to me married to this type of person?? Hell NO. So why am I still here?? Still dazed and confused. Sometimes I think he really loves me then other days all I think is of course he doesn't want a D. He would loose his house and have to pay alimony. This way he can have his cake. Crzy woman here and feeling so many different things I'm like a grenade ready to go off at times. Not good for myself or anyone else. Yeah I blame both they are both adults...

[ January 21, 2005, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

LM:

I have BS'd quite a bit regarding who is to blame, but now I have come up with some numbers.

Regarding OM:

The chances of OM landing a woman like my wife are one in a trillion. So I cannot blame OM for taking advantage of the situation. 0%

That leaves 100% for someone else. If I assign that blame to my wife I would be shooting myself in the foot. Because I then have to convince myself that I want her despite 100% of blame.

I believe there must have been a serious flaw in the marriage and to this point I am not sure what it was. I do know affairs can occur in good marriages, but there must have been something else. In any event now I have to decide who gets the majority of the blame-------- my wife or me.

Or perhaps there is no one to blame. We tend to forget that as humans we are wired for variety. How could we blame our own human condition? After all there must be an evolution benefit for spreading the seed as far as possible.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stan-ley:
Regarding OM:

The chances of OM landing a woman like my wife are one in a trillion. So I cannot blame OM for taking advantage of the situation. 0%<hr /></blockquote>Yo Stanley - What are your chances of becoming a billionaire?

Where's your closest bank? They might not have a full billion, but you may as well get started knocking them off.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

WAT

I think that the reason the the OM/OW is so despised, is that the betrayed spouse didn't DO anything directly to him/her.

Whatever responsiblity the betrayed spouse had in contributing to the problems in the marriage are not justifications for the OP to DESTROY another person's life. Someone he/she doesn't even really know. All they know is the bullsh*t that the cheating spouse told them.

See, I'm a nice person. I'm helpful in my day-to-day. I'm kind and I'm generous. And I rarely hold grudges. But the skank that my husband was fooling around with on the internet didn't know anything like that about me. She was talking to an unhappy man who was fixated on my faults. She was taking a shot at me without knowing who I really am. Why? It could only be because of her cheap-*** sense of entitlement. Afterall, she's "in love"!

I hate her for that. And yet, I don't hate my husband because some of his issues in the marriage were legitimate. He had a personal gripe with me. She didn't.

I think there's an assumption that everyone ought to be civilized when infidelity comes into play. And that it's the cheating spouse's fault entirely because they are the ones that took the vows.

All I know is that if the above-mentioned 'skank' had actually touched any part of my husband's body, I would have spent ALL of my time making certain that her life was made just as miserable as mine.

I think there ought to be legal repercussions regarding the OP. You can't go into the business community and ruin a person's livelyhood just because they had something that you wanted. Why is it okay to ruin a person's familial security?

Part of the frustration of the BS, is that they have so little recourse. We should address that more fully in our civil law.

[ January 21, 2005, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have to avoid the OW at all costs, because I feel hate for her, which is a word I don't like to use when referring to a person, I honestly wouldn't care if she got hit by a bus tommorrow, and hell if I was at the bus stop, I may push her in front of it!" <hr /></blockquote>CAREN:

These are my exact feelings. It sounds like you are quoting me. I know it is not the right way to think but this is also my current POV. I keep reading the paper, waiting to read that something has happened to her.

I also like the new word, SKANK(?) that I have learned here. SO APPROPRIATE!!!!

I haven't posted in awhile , just came to check in this caught my eye ..

This sounds more like a TOW thread to a degree about the OP not OWEING anything to the BS . LOL

Mixing words IMO Blame Responsiblity BLAH BLAH BLAH !

OP is a low life in nice words . Yes of course WS took the vows and ultimately dipped in tothe pool of gross human act .

BUT I am responding more on the pg 1

FORGOT the posters name about "aleination of affection "

I do not see why anyone would think this is wrong , if the state has this law (witch I think all should ) then a BS should do it .
When a clerk at a store is SHOT , the family wants the death penelty (if in the state )

BUT the shooter did not owe them anything ? they didn't know the family so what is the probblem that they took the person they love away ?

That person was a stranger .

MY point is yes the WS went for it, 50% ,OP bit 50% ....IF we have to add to 100 !

You know if you read over at TOW they put blame on the BS all the time saying if the BS could KEEP WS happy they wouldn't be here !

BULL !!!! IF the WS tried to approach it differently then there may have been no A ,,, but once involved OP CHOOSES to decieve and hide and keep the A alive there is the BLAME !

Tell the WS to get a D and come back when its finnal , no they don't do that they push and prosue and manipulate , they separate the 2 relationships and get more angree that the BS still wants the M ,, they fight harder for something they NO is distructive ..and hurtful !

not here to change anyone Opion thats why it is an opoin ,,, but I will say it does turn my stomach that some can think that the OP has no BLAME ..

I am not saying that you don't need to get past some of it for a healthy recovery , but you can recover while still knowing the OP had BLAME !

JMO .3

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I think there ought to be legal repercussions regarding the OP. You can't go into the business community and ruin a person's livelyhood just because they had something that you wanted. Why is it okay to ruin a person's familial security?
Part of the frustration of the BS, is that they have so little recourse. We should address that more fully in our civil law. <hr /></blockquote>Good point!

One would think OP should be liable if they bring HIV or something else (hepatitis C) fatal to the marriage. In this instance the betrayed spouse was completely blindfolded as the OP introduces this sort of stuff into the marriage. I would say there is some blame in this instance!

LadyJane14 --- that said it well.

Lemonman -- I think you are saying that it doesn't matter how rotten the OP are, because they would not be OP if the WS hadn't allowed them to become OP, and therefore we should not blame the OP. Right?

***Originally posted by lemonman:
... the OP OWES US and our marriage NOTHING....***

I do, however, disagree with you on this. My husband's two most long-lasting OP (that I know of) most certainly DID owe me the respect that any human being owes another. I did not ever deserve to be lied to and insulted and publicly humiliated by these people.

They owed my marriage the respect that everyone *claims* to have for marriage (G. Bush and the conservative right, anyone?)

Sorry. They DID owe me and my marriage that respect. They DID owe me that same respect as a human being. They DID owe me something.

I blame the OP 100% for being opportunistic thieves.

I blame my WH 100% for holding the door open for them.

If my next-door neighbor forgets to lock his car one night, that does not make it okay for me to take it for a joy ride just because "I didn't make any promises to him and I owe him nothing."

People owe each other respect as human beings. Marriage as an institution is owed respect in itself. OP and WS totally ignore this. That's why BOTH are to blame.
Mulan

WS Fogese:
"It's not MY fault. The devil made me do it! No, the OP made me do it...yeah, that's it. The OP made me do it.

Wait! If I can convince my BS to believe that they are 50% responsible because they did not meet my ENs and that the OP is 50% responsible for 'making me do it' then I'm 100% off the hook for my own choices and actions." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BS Fogese:
"Yeah! What WS said. I think..." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

This may be repetitive alos, but:

Obviously, both my wife and the OM are 10000000 percent responsible for the choice they made.

But, LM, I think there is a point that you are missing: some people have integrity, and some don't.

What I mean is this: my wife never should have been talking to this guy about problems in OUR marriage. But..just because she chose to do so doesn't mean that an affair was inevitable. The guy could have simply refused to talk to her. Or..he could have told ME that she was talking to him. He didn't. Insted, he saw a vulnerable woman, and he took advantrage of that vulnerability.

That doesn't excuse my wife or justify what she did in any way. It does, unfortunately, highlight a sad fact of human nature.

Lemonman,

I hold my husband 100% accountable for the EA. OW does not owe me loyalty, but HE does. He's my husband afterwall. Now, I know that OW is needy and pushy and she knew that he was married. He makes her feel good about herself. If it wasn't her, then it would have probably been another OW.

I do think though that she has character flaws and low morals, but that's for her future husband to deal with...

Kati

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
 Just curious folks, what % do you hold the OW/OM responsible for the infidelity in you marrigae and your recovery struggles. I am interested in what people's thoughts are on this. <hr /></blockquote>

ba109-

ba109-

<blockquote>quote:<hr />WS Fogese:
"It's not MY fault. The devil made me do it! No, the OP made me do it...yeah, that's it. The OP made me do it.

Wait! If I can convince my BS to believe that they are 50% responsible because they did not meet my ENs and that the OP is 50% responsible for 'making me do it' then I'm 100% off the hook for my own choices and actions." <hr /></blockquote>LMAO...I love this....especially if the BS is 50% responsible and the OP is 50% responsible that leaves the WS scott free...LMAO

I just found that to be extremely funny...thank you for the laugh.

-Caren

WW and OM are both friggin immoral idiots. They can divide up the percentages between them however they see fit but myself and OMW each can take 0%

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

O.K., I just have to bite.

I blame OW 100% for her actions

AND

I blame WH 100% for his actions,

which was infidelity in my marriage.

(I wish they would have consulted me about my marriage first <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
I am in the camp that the OW/OM is NEVER even 1% responsible for an affair. I asked the question because I see so many people posting things like " if the OW would just leavfe my husban alone, we could recover"...or especially on the preg/OC board..."I trust him...not her". I guess I just really disagree with the principle that the OP had anything to do with the affair happening. They don't force our spouses to cheat or maintain contact. They don't !!!! There is one unfortunate BS who was struggling one on of the boards becasue SOMEHOW the OW was getting her husbands cell phone number each time he changed it after contact. It is comments like this that make me shriek...HELLO>>>>>>HELLO......IThey do not OWE us any responsibility...as they are not married to us. DO I think OP are vermin...your damn right I do...but in the end, they hold NO RESPONSIBILITY in an affair or struggling recovery. That onus should be placed 100% square on the WS for their actions in having an affair. ( this is not to say that recovery os all on the WS). I am talking about somehitng completely different here.<hr /></blockquote>LemonMan,

The OW harrassed me on my answering machine at home when I was in cancer treatments [stage 3 cervical cancer].

Examples of her messages: "you're a cancerous c_nt" and "your husband is only with you because of the money" and "your husband smells like fish when he visits me, you need to go back to the doctors".

This from a woman I had never met, never seen or even talked to.

And just so you know, I have always laid the lion's share of the affair squarely on my husband's shoulders.

But, ... to believe the OW or any OP holds no responsibility when they knowingly are having an affair with a married person is wrong. They are intruding, at times aggressively, into a union for the purposes of severing that union.

And when they attack the wife to further the affair they certainly hold responsibility for that affair related action.

One additional note: You mention reading on the OC board. I would offer that unless you have experienced this very devistating circumstance, saying it's difficult to understand is a fantastic understatement.

Miker..LMAO! I agree with you!

Hmmmm....interesting!

In my case I hold my husband 100% responsible, because it was me he betrayed. OW and I didn't have a relationship, BUT - she was a 20 year friend of my husband, and he dropped her immediately on d-day and went NC. Whew, she didn't understand that, and felt betrayed by him.

Also in a sense she betrayed their friendship by agreeing to the affair; a real friend would have sent him to therapy. So guess what? She lost her friend of 20 years...forever!

I'd say we all lost, except that my marriage is better than it was before d-day, and I am happier with myself and my husband as a result of how we managed our recovery! Life is good...OW is lost to both of us in spite of her repeated attempts to contact my husband.

I hold WW 100% responsible for her actions, the fact that she never was honest enough with herself, or me to bring her unhappiness into the light. She is responsible for confiding in OM, and destroying her kids & family in the process.

I hold OM 100% responsible for his actions, he KNEW she was a married woman, BEFORE he made the contact that she latched onto. This is AMORAL, and he alone is responsible for that portion. He never once told her that maybe she could be happy, if she would talk to her H (me). All he saw was a chance to have an old flame back, and to hell with the repercussions.

I have not met him yet, they are living in an apartment complex that I have to work closely with in my business. Monday I will be there for 3 hours, and I pray he is NOT, because I don't honestly know how I will react. (Please dear Lord, give me strength, wisdom, and Your Peace)

lemmon

first: i give you cudos for the subject matter... i had pondered this for a long time... the reponses... priceless...

as far as my response... i will say that i agree with miker, from the aspect of a WSs accountabilty of the choices that they make (initiating) when they go astray... but in my situation, i blame them both (percentages are irrelevent to me) because my WW told me (and i believe her) that her OM told her that she should 'go back and try to work things out with your H', and yet, she didn't try and they are still together... 16 months later... so... it seems that he knew (even if it was momentarily, it's still accountabilty, imho) the right thing to do, but chose not to... so... like it has been said many times here... and everywhere... it still takes two...

be well

samm

I "blame" them both.

Do I think she manipulated the situation most definitely. She made the 1st move - she did this even knowing that my H was married (happily or not) - she didn't want to be percieved as a "home wrecker" - she thought her own H was having an A - she was trying to get pregnant and never told my H - she resumed contact with my H and still decided to hide their contact from her H -

However, my H was a married man who "befriended" a married woman and listened to her pain (and never once concerned his own W's pain). He resumed contact with her and still decided to hide their contact from his wife. He gave her part of himself (emotionally) - that he had denied me. He (well, they), underestimated and disrespected me totally.

But, I think - knowing my H. They wouldn't have gotten "involved" (in an EA), if she never said "I think I have feelings for you as more than a friend". (Who knows???)

JMHO

Brown

I thinkall of us are accountable and responsible for the choices in life we make whether those choices are good or bad. Blame? Nope, accountability is the operative word for me.

lm - I's so disappointed that you haven't answered my request in my prior reply to this post.

Perhaps you're busy.

I do need your insight in my sitch so that I can stop blaming OM.

Thanks,
WAT

[ January 22, 2005, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]

LOL Lemon, this thread is still going strong....you appear to have struck a nerve <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I personally blame Lemon for all my marital problems....it's all his fault....for shame Lemon....for shame!!! LMAO

-Caren

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by worthatry:
 I didn't read every reply on this post, so I may be repeating some ideas - maybe not.

Similar to GC with a twist: I assign responsibility for my XW's decision to seek comfort outside of our marriage 100% on her and I assign both her and OM each 100% of the decision to continue the affair.

LM, I'd be interested to see if you can defend your "OP is 0% to blame logic" here.

<hr /></blockquote>WAT:

Sorry I didn't respond earlier. I was on call last night and was up all night with some poor guy who put his car through a telephone pole in a drunken state. His passengers (front seat and back ---> both without a seat belt <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ) were killed. He looks like he will live. Bad night with traumas.

Anyways, it is snowing hard here now and I am in my home office with a hot cup of coffee and the fire place freshly started. There is no call responsibilties in sight and my Eagles are ready for a SuperBowl run in about 24 hours, so I am in good spirits. I will try and answer your question. I think after re-reading the thread here, I may have misled people about what I was really saying. I think it boils down to my poor literary skills in writing down what I feel and mean ( I have always been so left brained <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). WAT, I agree with you and cannot ever defend the fact that an OP willfully entered (most times---> sometimes I think they may not have known a WS was married) and continued an affair with a married spouse. That is not really a point of contention here. For many reasons, when (CERTAIN) posters see anything I post they get very defensive in any resoponse to me (that is nothing new here.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and the thread takes an always adversarial twist. ****Sigh****, LOL, things will never change here, but that is ok. Let me see if I can clarify this for you.

For ME...a big part of my personal struggles with my PERSONAL recovery of this was all of my anger and blame and resentment towards the OM. In my own (admittedly faulty) view I blamed him for a large part of the affair. I actually thought my wife was just too "weak" of a person, and that if he didn't pursue her and penetrate that weakness, my marriage would be intact. I still feel it was up TO ME to protect her weakness from him. That may be a faulty thought also. I don't know if you can ever "protect" a weak spouse from their own decisions. YES..I know about Harley's EN's questionaire...yada yada yada, but I don't PERSONALLY buy it all. I think sometimes (many times) affairs will happen despite what the BS does. Many times affairs happen when the marriage is going great, and the WS just cheats because "they can". They want the "feeling" of newness even when the relationship is great with their spouse. We eat things we know we should not eat, we drink more than we should, we smoke things we should not smoke...and we do things (sex) with people we should not be doing that with.

These feelings of hate towards the OM gutted me for a long time. It is only recently that in MY OWN MIND (now...to all who disagree...fine...but this is MY OWN f-ING OPINION HERE) I have realized that in the END, he (OM) didn't end my marriage. My wife's ACTIONS did that. Yes, I am responsible for my part in this marriage ending...but when one does the act of INFIDELITY...this surpasses everything else. He never made my wife do any of these things to my marriage. He didn't "make" her sleep with him, and he didn't "make" her betray me a thousand times over. That is why I say OP have no role or culpabalitly in the WS cheating. Ofcourse they (OP) deserve 100% repsonsibility for their actions in the affair...but I am not their judge here. They will answer for their actions at another time to a much higher power than me. They are NOT responsible for my pain and hurt...MY WW is. Yes, you would think they owe it as a human being to be decent and good natured....but in the end, it is my WS who allowed them to do this to me. That is just my point and opinion here. To answer your question....I could never defend or justify an OP for contiuning an affair and helping to destroy a family....BUT their actions and power to do this are only supplied by the Wayward Spouse.

I don't really care to change people's opinions here. That is not what this thread is about. You will notice that I rarely EVER provide advice or an opinion on someone's marriage anymore. Mine failed, so as this is a marriage building site..I feel unqualified to post about that. For me, I am personally recovering and SUCCEEDING, so I feel I can provide advice on this... IMO, personal recovery is INTEGRAL to having any chance at a marriage recovery or a new relationship...so that is why I post. (isn't this what the essence of Plan A or B or whatever is). There are other things that I can post about and provide at least a perspective on. I also like giving a QUALIFIED medical opinion on things here. It is kind of funny how many people have questions about that here. Perhaps I will join the Idiotville thread and apply for privlidges at the local idiotville general hospital (nahhhh.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I could never live with myslef if i did that). I think discussion is good even if you all disagree with me. It is all good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Honestly folks, I am usually amazed how any post I make usually has many heated responses to it. I threw this question out there because it was just something that I was thinking about. If people don't like what I write or disagree with me...that is A-ok..I am fine with that. What I can't stand is the "oh LM, please watch what you say..some people might be hurt by what you think"......We are all adults here, if you don't like my posts and are offended by my opinions....please do not read or respond. It is all so easy. There are a few posters here that I think are absolutely NUTS and define the word DOORMAT. They are needy, clingy co-dependent riddled souls. I wholeleheratedly disagree with nearly 100% of what they say and advise others on...and I have learned (or am learning) to NOT respond to their posts or make any comments on them. That doesn't help anyone. It is actually quite easy. Perhaps this should have been posted on the divorced thread, but I don't really post there and am not about to start. This is still a public forum and I don't think what I wrote or opined on is against any of the TOS. This GQ forum is where I am staying. If you (and I am not speaking to you WAT here) don't like it...please email justus@aol.com to let her know. I will be happy to cease posting on the GQ forum if I get redirection from her.

WAT, thanks for your opinions on this. I really enjoy reading your posts and I think you offer a lot of great support for people here.

Cheers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Lemon, don't stop posting here.....you're a trip, I love reading your posts. Your opinion matters to me. I think you are a very intelligent person and this is also the only forum I post in, I don't even look at the others.

You're allowed to have your opinion, and I love a good debate.......disagreeing with you doesn't mean I don't luv ya <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I absolutely do. You are a very smart man, and your topic was a valid one.....I liked responding to it, you give me something to think about almost EVERYTIME you post or reply. Maybe it's back to my having "euphoric recall" of my anger LMFAO.....it apparently brings me euphoria, per my counselors and I'll take all the euphoria I can get right about now.

-Caren

Hey Lemon! I'm glad you're sticking around because I think your perspective offers much needed balance to the syrupy interpretation that many folks give to these MB concepts. I promise you that if you ever met Willard Harley....you would find that the is much more like you than anyone here might believe. He gives "no quarter" to WSs and openly admits that if Joyce was unfaithful...he'd dump her. So stick around my friend.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lemonman:
These feelings of hate towards the OM gutted me for a long time.<hr /></blockquote>Exactly my point ... it is a process for the BS to make this realization. Some BS make this realization sooner than others.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> What I can't stand is the "oh LM, please watch what you say..some people might be hurt by what you think"

<hr /></blockquote>I said cut some people some slack and respect that this is a process. Others will arrive at the same conclusion where you (eventually) arrived. The flatter learning curve of others is oft a source of frustration for the fast learners.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />There are a few posters here that I think are absolutely NUTS and define the word DOORMAT. They are needy, clingy co-dependent riddled souls.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, there are. And there are X-doormats here as well..... Cherished is one. Her old name was "broken arm and broken heart" .... and you can guess why. SHE was the lowest doormat you could ever imagine... and she is becoming a rising star, a phoenix from the ashes. Her struggle has been heroic to change herself. And I honor her struggle because she came from a low point I can only imagine.

Part of the process of recovery is picking up new tools along the way and learning how to correctly use the new tool.

This is hard stuff for the most gifted and the brightest amongst us... ... and even harder for those of us who had to begin this process from a deeper hole....

Where you are is not as important as the direction you are headed.

LM ... I think you are really cool by the way. You challenge others to think, and it is a good thing that you do. And I, in turn, choose to challenge YOU! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Pep

[ January 22, 2005, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

I've been keeping up with this thread and finally decided to weigh in. About a month ago I asked my IC if she thought our little OW was a predator. I told her I didn't want to just make her a predator to make myself feel better about H's infidelity. She said, "I think a predator is someone who goes after someone who is vulnerable. So yes, I think she was a predator." I asked Steve Harley that question months before and he called her a troll. Someone who is out trolling for the fun of it, and in this case caught the big fish. Somehow knowing she was a predator did make me feel somewhat better. Maybe as Pep indicated I am now moving to a more balanced perspective. I know one thing. I'm not saying out loud 100 times a day, "I hate that BI***'s "F"ing guts."

We had a year from hell. H's dad had just died, among other deaths and stressors. And I was unable to really be there for him because I was wrapped up with my very sick father. I know that OW went after H full force. I know he was vulnerable and didn't even know it. I know that she began crossing all the bounderies and finally he took the step and crossed the line. This is what Steve told me when I asked why at that choice point did he have to walk through that 1st door. Sorry, I've probably written this before. He said it's like a person who says they will be fine if they only have a few drinks. So they have those few drinks, but it turns out the few drinks got them drunk. At that point they don't have good judgement anymore and just keep having more drinks.

Of course that theory somehow makes me feel a bit better. H slowly got in too deep, and then it was too late. However, at the end of the day, he did choose to forget our M vows. He did choose to not support me during a terrible time. He chose to forget about our boys. He didn't care what a D would do to them. Now they have to deal with the legacy of H's A. Now they have this in their lives. So I guess after all these months, and understanding the addictive quality of As, a part of me still doesn't buy how the WS can walk through that A door.

I blame OW 100% for deliberately going after H and actively trying to end our M. I know he isn't the kind of man who would have pursued an A. She showed no remorse throughout the A, and whenever H wanted to end it did everything to keep him hooked. But I blame H 100% for making that choice to have an A. CV

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

WAT

blame OW 100% for deliberately going after H and actively trying to end our M. I know he isn't the kind of man who would have pursued an A. She showed no remorse throughout the A, and whenever H wanted to end it did everything to keep him hooked. But I blame H 100% for making that choice to have an A. CV Very similar to the way I feel about OW #2. I know my H went into this A with eyes wide open because he had an A once before..but this OW was an old GF, divorced twice with 4 kids and she heard through the grapevine that H was unhappy in his M. So, she deliberately set out to get him back. This was her own words to me in a letter she sent me after dday #2. For myself, I blame myself 100% for my A. I knew I was unhappy and instead of trusting my H enough to tell him what I needed, I turned to FOM. stupid, stupid stupid...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CV55:
 Of course that theory somehow makes me feel a bit better. <hr /></blockquote>Yep....it made me feel better too. BUT...I guess FOR ME, I do not need to believe "this theory" anymore. No matter though. If you are in marital recovery...the Harley theory of the OP "pulling" them (vulnerable WS) over the line to AN AFFAIR makes perfect sense. As you said yourself...your FWH "is not the kind of man who would pursue an affair", it only happened because he was vulnerable and then pursued and "pulled over" the line by the manipulating, predatory woman. I used to really believe this about my WS also. I really did. I just don't anymore. I would certainly choose to believe this if I was trying to move on in "recovery" with my wife though. It all makes perfect sense. Good discussions all the way around.

Cheers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

[ January 22, 2005, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]

I have avoided posting on this thread because I didn't feel I had anything to add. But CV55 had a similar situation to mine, I think.

OW went after my H with a vengeance. I know, because I was there. I was with him in the truck when she would call him and say something in a sexy, provocative tone. She didn't know he had the phone on speakerphone. She didn't know I was with him at the time. Of course, he immediately (usually) took it off speakerphone to talk to him. I blame her 100% for the beginning of the EA. I blame both of them 100% for the PA. As Steve says, "he failed to protect his weaknesses."

However, here's the problem. I also blame myself 100% for being too trusting, for not recognizing what was going on and trying to put a stop to it before it became what it is, and for letting him put all the blame on me.

There's plenty of blame to go around. I am shedding mine, like a snake sheds old skin, through reading and understanding MB principles. H has not shed his skin. I think he is uncomfortable in it, but is unwilling to let it go. OW is a snake, will always be a snake, and revels in her snakiness. As soon as my H becomes unavailable, she will go after another vulnerable middle aged man and do the same thing. She already has done this several times before my H.

So there are many people to blame, even OW's H, in my opinion.

By the way, lemonman, you'd be very very welcome in idiotville. We are good to each other and pretty kind to others. We laugh through our misery and keep each other company in bad times. Our 2 x 4's are all made of soft rubber. We are a worldwide community and life is good there. We could use a good doctor, too. Or a good bartender. Or both. Come on over, the water's fine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I want to pipe in. Don't pop in much over here in GQ2 but this is interesting.

Blame--Don't blame this husband's OW at all. She didn't know he was married. How can I blame her, she thought she was dating a single guy?! And I feel fairly certain that husband did remember he was married. So he gets it all.

Blame on my first husband's ow was harder. She knew me, tried to be my friend--only later did I find out that it was because she was trying to see if he was being faithful to her and not sleeping with me. Weird to even expect if you are the OP in my mind. But whatever.

I blamed her 100% at first, like she stole him from me or something. NOT. He went willingly. He was the one who cheated on me and divorced me to be with her. And she was a predatory OW. He was if I remember right the 3rd or 4th mm that she had an affair with. She definately had issues with commitment. But in the end I put all the blame squarely on his shoulders for tearing our marriage apart.

And really when I put the responsiblity in the right place for the breakdown, I freed myself of a whole truckload of bitterness and resentment.

Good thread LM.

Tiggy

My first husband's OW was predatory, went after him with a vengance. But in the end for me, I had to place it on him.

I have had a few offers, flattering but I didn't do anything. I even had one guy that I worked with that obsessively called me telling me he loved me and wanted to be my everything....blah blah blah....excuse me.....puke. He called and sent cards and even wrote me a *song* at one point. He was very very persistant. I DIDN'T HAVE AN AFFAIR!!! It wasn't that he wasn't attractive. He was. It wasn't that the thought didn't cross my mind. It did. It was that I was married and took that more seriously than either of my husbands did.

IMO it doesn't matter if the OP was after either of my husbands. They are the ones who took up the offer. Just me though and we each have our own paths to take. For me, it has been easier to sort out putting it all the one I was married to.

Tiggy

[ January 22, 2005, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Tiggy ]

LM, I was talking to H today about this thread and some other pretty intense issues. Another story entirely. He said something like, "Well maybe we can just ban together and blame somebody else." I said no, I'm not going to blame her. I pretty much told him what I feel about her, which I wrote on here. But I told him that he is the one who didn't say to her as she was making overt sexual gestures to him, "Get out of my "F"ing face. I'm married!" He said that he actually did tell her that, minus the "F"ing face part. Then I said, "But at some point you went to the park that day, and let her give you her letter to you. You chose to not tell me about it that day. At some point you chose to drive with her to your place of business and screw her. You decided it was OK to break our vows."

In saying all of that, I will also say that before the A we had been with each other 25 yrs. without infidelity. We had made it through some pretty bad years, like the one we were in then. The difference this time was an OW who very actively wanted to worm her way into our M. Of course maybe if there had been a vulture like her earlier, the same thing would have happened. I do think what Steve says is very valud for at least some WSs. "An A happens when the S(future WS) fails to protect his/her weaknesses." I know straight out my H had no idea what his weaknesses were. NADA! Frankly I had no idea admiration was at the top of his list either. Heck, it's not even on my list. When I was describing our OW months back, someone wrote me, "What, do these OWs all follow a playbook?" I thought that was pretty funny, but kind of accurate. Our little "B" was the master of admiration, and a few other things. Then there's H, who just lost his dad, had tons of unresolved childhood crap that were not even in his consciousness, and he was thrust into a MLC. His wife, moi, is totally preoccupied with the life stressors. The 20 yr. younger OW is just showering him with "You're such a good person! I admire what a great businessman you are. I'm so attracted to you. CV just doesn't know what she has. She really should be more grateful." Yada, yada, yada! Well, I'll just say that was a disaster waiting to happen. But, it was my lovely H's decision to continue deceiving me and screwing her over and over again. Bottom line, As can be very complicated and we, the BSs are the ones that screwed in the end. And unfortunately not the screwing that we all like either. CV

I think the OP has blame in this matter. He/she should back off if they know the person is married. I know he/she has no responsibility to the BS, but to their "friend" that they are getting involved with who is married they do. If that means to offer support while they pursue a D or offer support while they work on their marriage, but not to tear a family apart.

I guess it is like a previous poster said...

It takes longer for some BS to reach a healing stage where they stop blaming it all on the OM/OW.

I try to not feed the frenzy that a BS in in when they are ranting and raving about the OP.

It is hard to not respond when they blast the OP for sleeping in their bed....ummmm, your W/H invited them in YOUR bed.

When SHE has the nerve to get pregnant...ummm, your H's sperm made it all possible.

When he calls her...ummmm, she's answering the phone and talking to him.

It takes too much time and energy to focus on the OP and what THEY have done in regards to the demise of the marriage. It is better used on the recovery of the marriage.

I guess it's just a process.

JMHO
committed

<blockquote>quote:<hr />committedandlovingit:
I guess it is like a previous poster said...

It takes longer for some BS to reach a healing stage where they stop blaming it all on the OM/OW.<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: The length of healing various due to personality and situation. More t/d with characters involved. Blaming the OP is part of the healing stage. We shouldn't get upset to see a BS rant and rave over the OP. In many cases what is posted here is less than what is really happening. Also ranting and raving here releases some of that pent up anger that has been heaped upon the BS. I saw the OP make direct attacks on my family. It certainly was her choice. I was not allowed to leave the sitch immediately. Partly my fault (unknown) rest of it up to the WS and OP. Their A was fueled on my anger. Once that was figured out, then my healing could begin. That gave me strength to cut the ties that choked.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />committedandlovingit: I try to not feed the frenzy that a BS in in when they are ranting and raving about the OP.<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Ok, that's your choice. We all have choices.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />committedandlovingit: It is hard to not respond when they blast the OP for sleeping in their bed....ummmm, your W/H invited them in YOUR bed. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Yes it is..... here's the flip side to that..... A WS invites a OP to their home and bed..... whose choice is it to go? Often it is voluntary. Don't tell me all these OPs end up in the bed at gun point. LOL!!! Some are initiated by the OP. Especially the OWs.... it is some sort of conquest to go to the BS' bed and do it with there H's.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />committedandlovingit: When SHE has the nerve to get pregnant...ummm, your H's sperm made it all possible. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: So did she spread her legs at gun point also? I think that's called rape. Another danger with As that guys fail to remember.

Take a look at His Needs/Her Needs.... guys communicate differently. In the heat of passion, which end are most men using to guide them..... ok. In many cases, the woman is in control. Often leading the men, enticing them, directing them. All pregancies via an A have the stamp of approval of the OW. Don't let that fool you one bit. OWs like the power they get over the WS with sex..... gives them a thrill of sordid sorts.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />committedandlovingit: When he calls her...ummmm, she's answering the phone and talking to him. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: When the WS calls the OW? That the WS is responsible for. When the OW calls the WS? That's what the OW is responsible for.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />committedandlovingit: It takes too much time and energy to focus on the OP and what THEY have done in regards to the demise of the marriage. It is better used on the recovery of the marriage.

I guess it's just a process. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: It does take a lot of time and energy. For most BS' this is part of the process in order to heal. Once that is done then the BS can move forward to other things such as a good plan A then B or recovery as needed.

However, after those steps are taken, is it right to blame the OP? Depends. Remember those calls from the OP? Remember the loss of time, $$, memories, hurt, illness, frustration, anger, medication, financial distress, loss of job, loss of friends, family ,etc.? Well the WS can't have an A by himself. Even if there are several OPs.....each one did his/her part to make the A.

So often the BS does carry some anger/blame towards the OP. In a lessor form than initially but some remains.

In my case, I fear this OW will do damage to other families. She thinks she is in the right to do so. Now do you think I blame her? Well I fear for all within her realm of her grasp. With the internet, she can do a lot of continuing damage. I will say the thought of taking out an ad warning all in her community has crossed my mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It sure isn't because she is 'blameless'.

L.

Interesting conversation.

I think I sort of want to ammend my earlier reply. I personally don't spend time blaming the OW in my life. However that doesn't mean they are blameless. At least the first h's ow. She knew he was married. So she is culpable. I have just chosen to leave to stew in her own juices and not worry about it.

The OW from this husband had no idea he was married when it started. He leaked in out in drips that he was single, no wait..I'm divorced, no wait...I'm actually seperated, oh wait actaully I am still married. And she stopped sleeping with him. Isn't that what she is supposed to do? Believe me she is not on my list for future friends but really the only thing she did was get into bed too quickly with a man, my husband who sought her out.

Just thoughts.

Tig

Hi Guys,

Snowing like crazy out there. What better to do than to ponder this question. I've been away for awhile. Recovery is going really well. Changed my name here. I was JSENP.

I blame them both. And I blame myself, too, so for me it's 33%/33%/33%.

The OW was predatory in my case. She is M, 2 teenagers, whom she neglected to the point where they are both into drugs. Her sad, pathetic H knows about at least this A - yes, she admitted at least one other A to my H. She went after him with a vengeance, showing up at his hotel room with a robe on, naked underneath. And THAT time, he sent her back to her room. After that she kept at him, asking if they could just kiss. Well, no surprise, kissing led to the expected outcome (sorry). Every time he felt guilty during the A and wanted to confess to me, she convinced him that it would only 'hurt' me if I knew. Hahaha. Such concern. What she knew was, that when I found out, it would kill the A, which it did.

I also blame my DFWH because he knew the 'friendship' was getting out of hand. He should have told me he was developing feelings for another W. He lied to me for over a year, spent money we both earned on this pathetic excuse for a woman, talked me down to her, made himself emotionally absent to me and our children.

BUT...I love him dearly. He did admit everything when I finally became suspicious and asked him outright. He broke it off (with some minor setbacks). He has become a far better H than he was leading up to the A. He is tender, funny, loving, faithful, the best - now.

I blame myself b/c after 18 years of M, I stopped being the W he married. I let myself go -a little - gained some weight, got a little boring, didn't put our R first, didn't watch out for the 'sign & symptoms' like I think I should have.

This A was a horrible, horrible experience. I wouldn't wish it anyone, not even the OW.
----------------------------------------------
me-50 FWH-44 M-20yrs DD-19 DS-15 DS-9
A-2/03-5/04 DDay-5/8/04 WD/fog-5/04-9/04
NC ltr-9/3/04 In recovery with God's help

My situation is probably a little unique. I actually read the case notes of the OM. I saw in his own handwriting (he turned in a sex journal to his therapist) where he had numerous other affairs all with women that were having sexual problems with their husbands. I knew two besides my wife and both of them had been raped. He put in his journal that he knew some of them had been abused before and that he dreamed of abusing them as well...even said he had abused a few of them as well. A total of 12 prior affairs 8 of them wives having sexual problems.

I don't excuse my wife by any measure. But I recognize that this man targeted women that he somehow instinctly knew had been sexually abused in the past. Why he could tell my wife had raped and abused in the past I couldn't still bothers me but once she started disclosing her childhood abuse and rape I knew parts of it had to be true.

OPs carry a very small % of blame in most cases. Indeed most of the time the OP is simply guilty of being the enabler which is far less damning that being the offender. But in this guy's case he has the same instinct a child molester has...he knows which ones to go after and which ones to steer clear of.

Afterall, you are a better person than I am. I would just LOVE the OW to experience every miserable, awful feeling that I experienced the 9 months while she was screwing my H. I don't want to punish H in the same way, but I told him this today. That I wish he could experience exactly what this betrayal feels like for at least 10 minutes. OK, I said 10 min., but a week would be better. Just so he would know what I felt like and why it's not something a BS just gets over. He says he understand that, yet I know he really doesn't get it. Unfortunately betrayal like this is just something you have to experience. Lucky us!

When my H told her they had to stop before the A became physical our lovely OW was just so understanding. OW: "I respect your decision. I'll be here for you when you want to have sex." When he tried to stop the A she was great at the crying and begging him not to. Or my personal favorite which I have often quoted here. When H would say what they were doing was wrong and was adultery this was her response.It is such a gem. "We aren't having an A because we are in-love." OW decided to rewrite the definition of adultery. How nice! When I had my last conversation where I very nicely blasted the "B" I told her I didn't wish her any ill will, but I didn't forgive her. Well, I do wish her all sorts of ill will now. I know that's not good for my spiritual path in life, but it is where I am right now. As Orchid stated, maybe it is something some of us BSs just have to go through, hating the OP. H called her stupid today. I said she was stupid like a fox. He said, no, she was stupid. She had a good career and she lost it all. CV

Hi CV,

No, not a better person at all. Here's what I DO wish for her: 25 more years of M, to the H she does not love, but will not leave, using him for I don't know what (I know that is mean to wish on him).

I wish for her to spend the rest of her life knowing that it didn't work, that H and I are happy together.

What goes around, does come around. All of these predatory OPs watch, from the outside in, the restored Ms they tried to destroy. It is a looooong sentence. Fitting, I think.