<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

WAT

blame OW 100% for deliberately going after H and actively trying to end our M. I know he isn't the kind of man who would have pursued an A. She showed no remorse throughout the A, and whenever H wanted to end it did everything to keep him hooked. But I blame H 100% for making that choice to have an A. CV Very similar to the way I feel about OW #2. I know my H went into this A with eyes wide open because he had an A once before..but this OW was an old GF, divorced twice with 4 kids and she heard through the grapevine that H was unhappy in his M. So, she deliberately set out to get him back. This was her own words to me in a letter she sent me after dday #2. For myself, I blame myself 100% for my A. I knew I was unhappy and instead of trusting my H enough to tell him what I needed, I turned to FOM. stupid, stupid stupid...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CV55:
<strong> Of course that theory somehow makes me feel a bit better. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep....it made me feel better too. BUT...I guess FOR ME, I do not need to believe "this theory" anymore. No matter though. If you are in marital recovery...the Harley theory of the OP "pulling" them (vulnerable WS) over the line to AN AFFAIR makes perfect sense. As you said yourself...your FWH "is not the kind of man who would pursue an affair", it only happened because he was vulnerable and then pursued and "pulled over" the line by the manipulating, predatory woman. I used to really believe this about my WS also. I really did. I just don't anymore. I would certainly choose to believe this if I was trying to move on in "recovery" with my wife though. It all makes perfect sense. Good discussions all the way around.

Cheers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

<small>[ January 22, 2005, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

I have avoided posting on this thread because I didn't feel I had anything to add. But CV55 had a similar situation to mine, I think.

OW went after my H with a vengeance. I know, because I was there. I was with him in the truck when she would call him and say something in a sexy, provocative tone. She didn't know he had the phone on speakerphone. She didn't know I was with him at the time. Of course, he immediately (usually) took it off speakerphone to talk to him. I blame her 100% for the beginning of the EA. I blame both of them 100% for the PA. As Steve says, "he failed to protect his weaknesses."

However, here's the problem. I also blame myself 100% for being too trusting, for not recognizing what was going on and trying to put a stop to it before it became what it is, and for letting him put all the blame on me.

There's plenty of blame to go around. I am shedding mine, like a snake sheds old skin, through reading and understanding MB principles. H has not shed his skin. I think he is uncomfortable in it, but is unwilling to let it go. OW is a snake, will always be a snake, and revels in her snakiness. As soon as my H becomes unavailable, she will go after another vulnerable middle aged man and do the same thing. She already has done this several times before my H.

So there are many people to blame, even OW's H, in my opinion.

By the way, lemonman, you'd be very very welcome in idiotville. We are good to each other and pretty kind to others. We laugh through our misery and keep each other company in bad times. Our 2 x 4's are all made of soft rubber. We are a worldwide community and life is good there. We could use a good doctor, too. Or a good bartender. Or both. Come on over, the water's fine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I want to pipe in. Don't pop in much over here in GQ2 but this is interesting.

Blame--Don't blame this husband's OW at all. She didn't know he was married. How can I blame her, she thought she was dating a single guy?! And I feel fairly certain that husband did remember he was married. So he gets it all.

Blame on my first husband's ow was harder. She knew me, tried to be my friend--only later did I find out that it was because she was trying to see if he was being faithful to her and not sleeping with me. Weird to even expect if you are the OP in my mind. But whatever.

I blamed her 100% at first, like she stole him from me or something. NOT. He went willingly. He was the one who cheated on me and divorced me to be with her. And she was a predatory OW. He was if I remember right the 3rd or 4th mm that she had an affair with. She definately had issues with commitment. But in the end I put all the blame squarely on his shoulders for tearing our marriage apart.

And really when I put the responsiblity in the right place for the breakdown, I freed myself of a whole truckload of bitterness and resentment.

Good thread LM.

Tiggy

My first husband's OW was predatory, went after him with a vengance. But in the end for me, I had to place it on him.

I have had a few offers, flattering but I didn't do anything. I even had one guy that I worked with that obsessively called me telling me he loved me and wanted to be my everything....blah blah blah....excuse me.....puke. He called and sent cards and even wrote me a *song* at one point. He was very very persistant. I DIDN'T HAVE AN AFFAIR!!! It wasn't that he wasn't attractive. He was. It wasn't that the thought didn't cross my mind. It did. It was that I was married and took that more seriously than either of my husbands did.

IMO it doesn't matter if the OP was after either of my husbands. They are the ones who took up the offer. Just me though and we each have our own paths to take. For me, it has been easier to sort out putting it all the one I was married to.

Tiggy

<small>[ January 22, 2005, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Tiggy ]</small>

LM, I was talking to H today about this thread and some other pretty intense issues. Another story entirely. He said something like, "Well maybe we can just ban together and blame somebody else." I said no, I'm not going to blame her. I pretty much told him what I feel about her, which I wrote on here. But I told him that he is the one who didn't say to her as she was making overt sexual gestures to him, "Get out of my "F"ing face. I'm married!" He said that he actually did tell her that, minus the "F"ing face part. Then I said, "But at some point you went to the park that day, and let her give you her letter to you. You chose to not tell me about it that day. At some point you chose to drive with her to your place of business and screw her. You decided it was OK to break our vows."

In saying all of that, I will also say that before the A we had been with each other 25 yrs. without infidelity. We had made it through some pretty bad years, like the one we were in then. The difference this time was an OW who very actively wanted to worm her way into our M. Of course maybe if there had been a vulture like her earlier, the same thing would have happened. I do think what Steve says is very valud for at least some WSs. "An A happens when the S(future WS) fails to protect his/her weaknesses." I know straight out my H had no idea what his weaknesses were. NADA! Frankly I had no idea admiration was at the top of his list either. Heck, it's not even on my list. When I was describing our OW months back, someone wrote me, "What, do these OWs all follow a playbook?" I thought that was pretty funny, but kind of accurate. Our little "B" was the master of admiration, and a few other things. Then there's H, who just lost his dad, had tons of unresolved childhood crap that were not even in his consciousness, and he was thrust into a MLC. His wife, moi, is totally preoccupied with the life stressors. The 20 yr. younger OW is just showering him with "You're such a good person! I admire what a great businessman you are. I'm so attracted to you. CV just doesn't know what she has. She really should be more grateful." Yada, yada, yada! Well, I'll just say that was a disaster waiting to happen. But, it was my lovely H's decision to continue deceiving me and screwing her over and over again. Bottom line, As can be very complicated and we, the BSs are the ones that screwed in the end. And unfortunately not the screwing that we all like either. CV

I think the OP has blame in this matter. He/she should back off if they know the person is married. I know he/she has no responsibility to the BS, but to their "friend" that they are getting involved with who is married they do. If that means to offer support while they pursue a D or offer support while they work on their marriage, but not to tear a family apart.

I guess it is like a previous poster said...

It takes longer for some BS to reach a healing stage where they stop blaming it all on the OM/OW.

I try to not feed the frenzy that a BS in in when they are ranting and raving about the OP.

It is hard to not respond when they blast the OP for sleeping in their bed....ummmm, your W/H invited them in YOUR bed.

When SHE has the nerve to get pregnant...ummm, your H's sperm made it all possible.

When he calls her...ummmm, she's answering the phone and talking to him.


It takes too much time and energy to focus on the OP and what THEY have done in regards to the demise of the marriage. It is better used on the recovery of the marriage.

I guess it's just a process.

JMHO
committed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>committedandlovingit:
I guess it is like a previous poster said...

It takes longer for some BS to reach a healing stage where they stop blaming it all on the OM/OW.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: The length of healing various due to personality and situation. More t/d with characters involved. Blaming the OP is part of the healing stage. We shouldn't get upset to see a BS rant and rave over the OP. In many cases what is posted here is less than what is really happening. Also ranting and raving here releases some of that pent up anger that has been heaped upon the BS. I saw the OP make direct attacks on my family. It certainly was her choice. I was not allowed to leave the sitch immediately. Partly my fault (unknown) rest of it up to the WS and OP. Their A was fueled on my anger. Once that was figured out, then my healing could begin. That gave me strength to cut the ties that choked.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>committedandlovingit: I try to not feed the frenzy that a BS in in when they are ranting and raving about the OP.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Ok, that's your choice. We all have choices.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>committedandlovingit: It is hard to not respond when they blast the OP for sleeping in their bed....ummmm, your W/H invited them in YOUR bed. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Yes it is..... here's the flip side to that..... A WS invites a OP to their home and bed..... whose choice is it to go? Often it is voluntary. Don't tell me all these OPs end up in the bed at gun point. LOL!!! Some are initiated by the OP. Especially the OWs.... it is some sort of conquest to go to the BS' bed and do it with there H's.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>committedandlovingit: When SHE has the nerve to get pregnant...ummm, your H's sperm made it all possible. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: So did she spread her legs at gun point also? I think that's called rape. Another danger with As that guys fail to remember.

Take a look at His Needs/Her Needs.... guys communicate differently. In the heat of passion, which end are most men using to guide them..... ok. In many cases, the woman is in control. Often leading the men, enticing them, directing them. All pregancies via an A have the stamp of approval of the OW. Don't let that fool you one bit. OWs like the power they get over the WS with sex..... gives them a thrill of sordid sorts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>committedandlovingit: When he calls her...ummmm, she's answering the phone and talking to him. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: When the WS calls the OW? That the WS is responsible for. When the OW calls the WS? That's what the OW is responsible for.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>committedandlovingit: It takes too much time and energy to focus on the OP and what THEY have done in regards to the demise of the marriage. It is better used on the recovery of the marriage.

I guess it's just a process. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: It does take a lot of time and energy. For most BS' this is part of the process in order to heal. Once that is done then the BS can move forward to other things such as a good plan A then B or recovery as needed.

However, after those steps are taken, is it right to blame the OP? Depends. Remember those calls from the OP? Remember the loss of time, $$, memories, hurt, illness, frustration, anger, medication, financial distress, loss of job, loss of friends, family ,etc.? Well the WS can't have an A by himself. Even if there are several OPs.....each one did his/her part to make the A.

So often the BS does carry some anger/blame towards the OP. In a lessor form than initially but some remains.

In my case, I fear this OW will do damage to other families. She thinks she is in the right to do so. Now do you think I blame her? Well I fear for all within her realm of her grasp. With the internet, she can do a lot of continuing damage. I will say the thought of taking out an ad warning all in her community has crossed my mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It sure isn't because she is 'blameless'.

L.

Interesting conversation.

I think I sort of want to ammend my earlier reply. I personally don't spend time blaming the OW in my life. However that doesn't mean they are blameless. At least the first h's ow. She knew he was married. So she is culpable. I have just chosen to leave to stew in her own juices and not worry about it.

The OW from this husband had no idea he was married when it started. He leaked in out in drips that he was single, no wait..I'm divorced, no wait...I'm actually seperated, oh wait actaully I am still married. And she stopped sleeping with him. Isn't that what she is supposed to do? Believe me she is not on my list for future friends but really the only thing she did was get into bed too quickly with a man, my husband who sought her out.

Just thoughts.

Tig

Hi Guys,

Snowing like crazy out there. What better to do than to ponder this question. I've been away for awhile. Recovery is going really well. Changed my name here. I was JSENP.

I blame them both. And I blame myself, too, so for me it's 33%/33%/33%.

The OW was predatory in my case. She is M, 2 teenagers, whom she neglected to the point where they are both into drugs. Her sad, pathetic H knows about at least this A - yes, she admitted at least one other A to my H. She went after him with a vengeance, showing up at his hotel room with a robe on, naked underneath. And THAT time, he sent her back to her room. After that she kept at him, asking if they could just kiss. Well, no surprise, kissing led to the expected outcome (sorry). Every time he felt guilty during the A and wanted to confess to me, she convinced him that it would only 'hurt' me if I knew. Hahaha. Such concern. What she knew was, that when I found out, it would kill the A, which it did.

I also blame my DFWH because he knew the 'friendship' was getting out of hand. He should have told me he was developing feelings for another W. He lied to me for over a year, spent money we both earned on this pathetic excuse for a woman, talked me down to her, made himself emotionally absent to me and our children.

BUT...I love him dearly. He did admit everything when I finally became suspicious and asked him outright. He broke it off (with some minor setbacks). He has become a far better H than he was leading up to the A. He is tender, funny, loving, faithful, the best - now.

I blame myself b/c after 18 years of M, I stopped being the W he married. I let myself go -a little - gained some weight, got a little boring, didn't put our R first, didn't watch out for the 'sign & symptoms' like I think I should have.

This A was a horrible, horrible experience. I wouldn't wish it anyone, not even the OW.
----------------------------------------------
me-50 FWH-44 M-20yrs DD-19 DS-15 DS-9
A-2/03-5/04 DDay-5/8/04 WD/fog-5/04-9/04
NC ltr-9/3/04 In recovery with God's help

My situation is probably a little unique. I actually read the case notes of the OM. I saw in his own handwriting (he turned in a sex journal to his therapist) where he had numerous other affairs all with women that were having sexual problems with their husbands. I knew two besides my wife and both of them had been raped. He put in his journal that he knew some of them had been abused before and that he dreamed of abusing them as well...even said he had abused a few of them as well. A total of 12 prior affairs 8 of them wives having sexual problems.

I don't excuse my wife by any measure. But I recognize that this man targeted women that he somehow instinctly knew had been sexually abused in the past. Why he could tell my wife had raped and abused in the past I couldn't still bothers me but once she started disclosing her childhood abuse and rape I knew parts of it had to be true.

OPs carry a very small % of blame in most cases. Indeed most of the time the OP is simply guilty of being the enabler which is far less damning that being the offender. But in this guy's case he has the same instinct a child molester has...he knows which ones to go after and which ones to steer clear of.

Afterall, you are a better person than I am. I would just LOVE the OW to experience every miserable, awful feeling that I experienced the 9 months while she was screwing my H. I don't want to punish H in the same way, but I told him this today. That I wish he could experience exactly what this betrayal feels like for at least 10 minutes. OK, I said 10 min., but a week would be better. Just so he would know what I felt like and why it's not something a BS just gets over. He says he understand that, yet I know he really doesn't get it. Unfortunately betrayal like this is just something you have to experience. Lucky us!

When my H told her they had to stop before the A became physical our lovely OW was just so understanding. OW: "I respect your decision. I'll be here for you when you want to have sex." When he tried to stop the A she was great at the crying and begging him not to. Or my personal favorite which I have often quoted here. When H would say what they were doing was wrong and was adultery this was her response.It is such a gem. "We aren't having an A because we are in-love." OW decided to rewrite the definition of adultery. How nice! When I had my last conversation where I very nicely blasted the "B" I told her I didn't wish her any ill will, but I didn't forgive her. Well, I do wish her all sorts of ill will now. I know that's not good for my spiritual path in life, but it is where I am right now. As Orchid stated, maybe it is something some of us BSs just have to go through, hating the OP. H called her stupid today. I said she was stupid like a fox. He said, no, she was stupid. She had a good career and she lost it all. CV

Hi CV,

No, not a better person at all. Here's what I DO wish for her: 25 more years of M, to the H she does not love, but will not leave, using him for I don't know what (I know that is mean to wish on him).

I wish for her to spend the rest of her life knowing that it didn't work, that H and I are happy together.

What goes around, does come around. All of these predatory OPs watch, from the outside in, the restored Ms they tried to destroy. It is a looooong sentence. Fitting, I think.