LM,

Please be more specific. What type of blame are you surveying?

For the A
for the demise of the M
for being alive
for losing their pants/panties in public places
for speaking fog
for becoming an alien
for the attempts to take more than the WS
for attacks on the family, for stealing
for lying
for cheating
for filing false RO changes

for participation in the environment creating an OC

for ruining days, weeks, months and years out of the BS and family's life without their consent

for rendering another's family disabled financially, emotionally and morally, etc.

Let's see, probably 13 out of the 14 items listed above. That would make it OP: 92.8% WS: 107.3%

Why? Because you can't have an A without an OP. If you think you can have an A w/o an OP, then there's a place with soft walls that speak to you.

OPs like to think they are NOT responsible for the hurt brought on the family by the A. But that logic is coming from someone whose put is up a WS' azz. How good do you think their vision is? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

To try and reason with such will only tire out the sane. The insane have the strength to go on much longer..... why? Because the insane drain all around them and suck up their energy then move forward to create more chaos.

JMHO,
L.

committed,
This is MY personal take on it. OW is a vindictive, persuasive, person who WILL intimidate you and convince you of what she wants you to think. That is the kind of person she is, probably always will be. I am positive that she is manipulating my WH. He acts completely different when he is not around her, or told by her to do something. Many of the things he does to hurt the children and I emotionally are things that she has asked him to do.
HOWEVER, that DOES NOT make it her fault, or her responsibility. Most everyone else can see the pattern, and it is HIS fault that he can't. It is HIS fault for not using his OWN head and deciding what he wants in life. Through out this affair he has lost his voice, and his choice. IT WAS HIS CHOICE TO LOOSE HIS CHOICE! He is allowing the OW to manipulate him. She is TRYING to do the same to me, but I am not allowing it. He did, his fault. He CHOOSE to be with her, and not his children. It doesn't matter what she did or said to make him do that, it was his choice. She is crazy, and one day he will see that. It just may be too late.

Edited to add:
I DO blame her 100% for the things she outright does herself to harm my children and I emotionally. I blame her 100% for allowing her children to call my house and threaten me. I blame her 100% for her actions.

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: DanigirlinVA ]</small>

I blame my WW 100% for breaking our vows, my soul and my trust. I don't blame OM for the A, maybe a little for the post A and still for not being an honorable, moral, member of society, but I don't think that was the question that LM was asking.

Native

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> LM,

Please be more specific. What type of blame are you surveying?

For the A
for the demise of the M
for being alive
for losing their pants/panties in public places
for speaking fog
for becoming an alien
for the attempts to take more than the WS
for attacks on the family, for stealing
for lying
for cheating
for filing false RO changes

for participation in the environment creating an OC

for ruining days, weeks, months and years out of the BS and family's life without their consent

for rendering another's family disabled financially, emotionally and morally, etc.

Let's see, probably 13 out of the 14 items listed above. That would make it OP: 92.8% WS: 107.3%

Why? Because you can't have an A without an OP. If you think you can have an A w/o an OP, then there's a place with soft walls that speak to you.

OPs like to think they are NOT responsible for the hurt brought on the family by the A. But that logic is coming from someone whose put is up a WS' azz. How good do you think their vision is? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

To try and reason with such will only tire out the sane. The insane have the strength to go on much longer..... why? Because the insane drain all around them and suck up their energy then move forward to create more chaos.

JMHO,
L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orch:

Well, I get your point.............What I am asking is about the affair and continuatiuon of it. ALL of your lists after that are IRRELEVANT if your WS does not CHOOSE to cheat on you and the family. Yeah, many OW/OM are psycho's but the FACT is, the WS is the one who opened the door and let them into our life's. Hence, in the end, the OW/OM should hold NO RESPONSIBILITY. That is all on the WS. I realize my opinion is probably very unpopular here (so what else is new <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )...but I BELIEVE any attempt to shift any blame on the OW is all rationalization. Hey, just my opinion. Take it for what it is worth. I feel kind of "dirty" for seemingly taking the OW/OM side...but IMHO I think there is too much "emphasis" for the principle that the "dirty slimy OW/OM is manipulating my husband/wife into doing this to us and the kids". I just posted my poll to get a sense of what people thought about this. There is no right or wrong answer, just opinions...I realize this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

Blame? I don't blame the OW. She's a needy twit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> FWH? He was insane and I think its a pretty good defense. He owns the A 100% though. He was 100% guilty of that, but forgiveable because of insanity.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
-pendragon

LM,

One of the postive points of MB is the ability to speak or write our thoughts in an anonymus environment. You are certainly entitled to yours.

As for the OP's general responsibility, it s/b recognized, you can't have an A w/o an OP of sorts.

Some OPs like to hide behind the fact that they 'did not know the WS was married'. Well you can't be a WS unless you are married.

It is a web entwined due to deceit. WS and OPs plan, manipulate and execute direct attacks on the family in various degrees.

An accomplice carrys some responsibility in a crime. Sometimes they are just the driver or the one holding the gun but they are still a part of the crime.

In the A, the OP fulfills that role to various degrees. Some are more agreesive and psychotic than others.

To your question, there isn't a straight answer because of those variables. Safe to say, you can't have an A without a WS and OP. Given that statement, there is a percentage of responsibility with both.

What is interesting is that several of your posters went over the 100% mark. Including me. Wonder why that is? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>
What is interesting is that several of your posters went over the 100% mark. Including me. Wonder why that is? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL....a statistical impossibility....just like the old saying..." I will give it 110%". No such thing. I confirmed my suspicions with this thread. I think it was a good thread and certainly food for thought. I am certainly NOT disputing the fact that it takes two to tango and that you cannot have an affair without an OP.....once again, the OP OWES US and our marriage NOTHING....so in the true sense of the word, they have committed NO CRIME here. Are they moraly reprehensible scumbags?......yep...but that is not a crime here. They are NOT married to us, and took NO VOWS with us. I disagree wholeheartedly with your post...but can accept that we can agree to disagree. It is all good. Thank you for your opinions.

LM

LM,

I disagree with the assertion that the OP owes us nothing.

We are all part of a society or culture. Each of us lives within constraints which are imposed by that culture. We owe it to every other member of society to "play by the rules". According to your logic, a person who had made no vows or promises can do whatever (s)he wants and is blameless. I don't buy that.

The idea of the "Golden Rule" is probably present in almost all cutures - and not only Christian ones.

A person who wants to someday be in a monogomous relationship with a person of the opposite sex owes to society the respect of such relationships between other men and women.

No man is an island.

-AD

<small>[ January 20, 2005, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: AD ]</small>

I "blame" OW 0% for my H's personal decision to engage himself in an affair.

She threw bait, he bit and swallowed. His responsibility. Not hers.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AD:
<strong> LM,

I disagree with the assertion that the OP owes us nothing.

We owe it to every other member of society to "play by the rules". According to your logic, a person who had made no vows or promises can do whatever (s)he wants and is blameless. I don't buy that.


-AD </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well..my friend....unfortunately....."playing by the rules" would be great in an ideal world, but I am just being realistic here. Ofoucrse noone can do whatever they want in our culture....but infidelity is not a crime in the true sense of the word (I wish it was). In God's eyes...they (WS and OP) will pay for this, but with respect to our marriages...the OP is not responsible in any way, shape, or form for our WS betraying us.

"Blameless"....well I guess that is open to discussion. Once again, I think you are missing my point. When it comes to infidelity and YOUR MARRIAGE VOWS being broken......the OP in my opinion...is blameless. The WS is the one who gives the OP any power...any role...any ounce of cause in our marriage. The assault on the family, the fincancial impacy...yada yada yada are ALL brought about by the WS CHOICE in betraying us and GIVING the OP any power. That is my point and opinion. I can accept that you disagree with me. That is ok. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> I "blame" OW 0% for my H's personal decision to engage himself in an affair.

She threw bait, he bit and swallowed. His responsibility. Not hers.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank YOu. This is all I wanted to say.

once again, the OP OWES US and our marriage NOTHING....so in the true sense of the word, they have committed NO CRIME here. Are they morally reprehensible scumbags?......yep...but that is not a crime here. They are NOT married to us, and took NO VOWS with us.

If that is the case------- then why the OP hides in the shadow and is fearful of been caught by the BS?

In a sense they care greater cowards than the wayward spouse. If they owe us nothing whey do they hide from us? Why are they so afraid to talk to us? Fearful of answering a simple email----------- why do they hide?

When an OM hides behind the skirt of the WW who is also hiding from the H he is admitting he is causing harm to a fellow human being.

If the marriage of someone else means nothing to an OP------------- why do they engage in deceit? Why do some OPs pretend to be friendly to the betrayed spouse while having the affair with the WS? Is it because they owe us nothing? Obviously they owe us decency and respect. They owe us the same treatment they expect from others.

At least many WS rationalize the affair by rewriting marital history and disliking the BS. But the OP is simply there to take advantage of the opportunity. Perhaps a deed that is lower in the morality scale.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stan-ley:
<strong> once again, the OP OWES US and our marriage NOTHING....so in the true sense of the word, they have committed NO CRIME here. Are they morally reprehensible scumbags?......yep...but that is not a crime here. They are NOT married to us, and took NO VOWS with us.

If that is the case------- then why the OP hides in the shadow and is fearful of been caught by the BS?

In a sense they care greater cowards than the wayward spouse. If they owe us nothing whey do they hide from us? Why are they so afraid to talk to us? Fearful of answering a simple email----------- why do they hide?

When an OM hides behind the skirt of the WW who is also hiding from the H he is admitting he is causing harm to a fellow human being.

If the marriage of someone else means nothing to an OP------------- why do they engage in deceit? Why do some OPs pretend to be friendly to the betrayed spouse while having the affair with the WS? Is it because they owe us nothing? Obviously they owe us decency and respect. They owe us the same treatment they expect from others.

At least many WS rationalize the affair by rewriting marital history and disliking the BS. But the OP is simply there to take advantage of the opportunity. Perhaps a deed that is lower in the morality scale. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stan (my man <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ):

I agree with everything you say, but in REALITY, I disagree with your statement:

" Obviously they owe us decency and respect. They owe us the same treatment they expect from others."

Well, sadly, you can not expect that everyone who is involved in our live's is going to have these values...HOWEVER........this is something that we should EXPECT and DEMAND from OUR SPOUSES. When they betray these values and let an OW/OM into our lives (and children's lives), they take 100% sole responsibility for all of the fallout from the affair. It doesn't matter one iota what the OP says or does or how they run their lives. We were betrayed by our WS and it is by THEIR ACTIONS and CHOICES that we and our family suffer. OW/OM are cowards, and in essence morally reprehensible human beings for willfuly enaging in an affair.......deep down inside all of the foul of their hearts,,,,they know what they are doign is wrong. That is why they can't face us. That is why they act so completely irrational towards us. But in the end, it is not them (OW/OM) who we expect anything from. It is the men and women who we marry and vow faithfulness to forever.

Infidelity is a crime in every sense of the word, including being punishable by jail time in a number of states.

It makes no difference whether or not any of us have specifically vowed not to do something - if it is wrong, it is wrong. I never vowed not to steal your car, but that doesn't mean it is ok for me to drive off in it. If your employee had signed a contract committing him to an assignment, no matter how long, it would be wrong if I were to attempt to bribe him to leave - in spite of the fact that I did not sign that contract.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> I "blame" OW 0% for my H's personal decision to engage himself in an affair.

She threw bait, he bit and swallowed. His responsibility. Not hers.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank YOu. This is all I wanted to say. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LM...

I think you need to show some respect for the process. I have the benifit of time and healing in order to have today's perspective.

Someone else who is still in the 2-year post D-day time frame cannot be EXPECTED to have the same attitude I have.

Cut people some slack.

Pep

LM,

I think I catch your drift.

Since my W is a desirable woman, there will always be some man who wants to have an affair with her.

It was up to her (and her alone) to prevent that.

If that's what you're saying, I agree.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-AD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> I "blame" OW 0% for my H's personal decision to engage himself in an affair.

She threw bait, he bit and swallowed. His responsibility. Not hers.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank YOu. This is all I wanted to say. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LM...


Cut people some slack.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YAWN.........."oh Lemonman...cut some people some slack"...yawn, God this gets old.

Cut some slack.....FOR WHAT ?. I asked a question and gave my opinion on something.....what is there to cut slack on ? JFC...whatever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AD:
<strong> LM,

I think I catch your drift.

Since my W is a desirable woman, there will always be some man who wants to have an affair with her.

It was up to her (and her alone) to prevent that.

If that's what you're saying, I agree.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-AD </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DING DING DING...You got it AD. That is the essence of what I am saying. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

... and further...

In my W's case, she was the one who took most of the initiative for the first couple of years.

Long before we married (before we were engaged), I gave her a phone card (open-ended and billed to me) to call her folks overseas. After she started emailing with this guy, she started calling him - at my expense. She violated my trust in that way before we were even engaged. She didn't have any obligation to only talk to me at that point. She had no committment to an exclusive relationship with me of any kind. But she did have an obligation to use what I gave her for the purpose for which I gave it. If it had been a pre-paid card, she would have been under no obligation to use it only for the purpose I gave it to her, but as it was billed to me, she did.

So, that was not OM's initiative. He didn't have the $$$ to call her.

After we married, she spent $8000 that way (he was in Eastern Europe). I eventually put a stop to it. So, all those hours they spent talking - she dialed the phone.

But, still he is not blameless in this.

He knew she was engaged to marry me. He knew she had married me. At that time, he intended to become a missionary! So, he was, shall we say, under the obligation to the church to behave in a manner consistent with his "calling". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (I think his only "calling" was on the phone with my W.)

But... I do understand your point of view, LM. OM had no particular, personal obligation to me - but my W did.

-AD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cut some slack.....FOR WHAT ?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For taking longer to heal

For taking longer to understand

For frustrating you

Pep