Lemonman,

I hold my husband 100% accountable for the EA. OW does not owe me loyalty, but HE does. He's my husband afterwall. Now, I know that OW is needy and pushy and she knew that he was married. He makes her feel good about herself. If it wasn't her, then it would have probably been another OW.

I do think though that she has character flaws and low morals, but that's for her future husband to deal with...

Kati

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> Just curious folks, what % do you hold the OW/OM responsible for the infidelity in you marrigae and your recovery struggles. I am interested in what people's thoughts are on this. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

ba109-

ba109-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WS Fogese:
"It's not MY fault. The devil made me do it! No, the OP made me do it...yeah, that's it. The OP made me do it.

Wait! If I can convince my BS to believe that they are 50% responsible because they did not meet my ENs and that the OP is 50% responsible for 'making me do it' then I'm 100% off the hook for my own choices and actions." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LMAO...I love this....especially if the BS is 50% responsible and the OP is 50% responsible that leaves the WS scott free...LMAO

I just found that to be extremely funny...thank you for the laugh.

-Caren

WW and OM are both friggin immoral idiots. They can divide up the percentages between them however they see fit but myself and OMW each can take 0%

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

O.K., I just have to bite.

I blame OW 100% for her actions

AND

I blame WH 100% for his actions,

which was infidelity in my marriage.

(I wish they would have consulted me about my marriage first <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
I am in the camp that the OW/OM is NEVER even 1% responsible for an affair. I asked the question because I see so many people posting things like " if the OW would just leavfe my husban alone, we could recover"...or especially on the preg/OC board..."I trust him...not her". I guess I just really disagree with the principle that the OP had anything to do with the affair happening. They don't force our spouses to cheat or maintain contact. They don't !!!! There is one unfortunate BS who was struggling one on of the boards becasue SOMEHOW the OW was getting her husbands cell phone number each time he changed it after contact. It is comments like this that make me shriek...HELLO>>>>>>HELLO......IThey do not OWE us any responsibility...as they are not married to us. DO I think OP are vermin...your damn right I do...but in the end, they hold NO RESPONSIBILITY in an affair or struggling recovery. That onus should be placed 100% square on the WS for their actions in having an affair. ( this is not to say that recovery os all on the WS). I am talking about somehitng completely different here.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LemonMan,

The OW harrassed me on my answering machine at home when I was in cancer treatments [stage 3 cervical cancer].

Examples of her messages: "you're a cancerous c_nt" and "your husband is only with you because of the money" and "your husband smells like fish when he visits me, you need to go back to the doctors".

This from a woman I had never met, never seen or even talked to.

And just so you know, I have always laid the lion's share of the affair squarely on my husband's shoulders.

But, ... to believe the OW or any OP holds no responsibility when they knowingly are having an affair with a married person is wrong. They are intruding, at times aggressively, into a union for the purposes of severing that union.

And when they attack the wife to further the affair they certainly hold responsibility for that affair related action.

One additional note: You mention reading on the OC board. I would offer that unless you have experienced this very devistating circumstance, saying it's difficult to understand is a fantastic understatement.

Miker..LMAO! I agree with you!

Miker..LMAO! I agree with you!

Hmmmm....interesting!

In my case I hold my husband 100% responsible, because it was me he betrayed. OW and I didn't have a relationship, BUT - she was a 20 year friend of my husband, and he dropped her immediately on d-day and went NC. Whew, she didn't understand that, and felt betrayed by him.

Also in a sense she betrayed their friendship by agreeing to the affair; a real friend would have sent him to therapy. So guess what? She lost her friend of 20 years...forever!

I'd say we all lost, except that my marriage is better than it was before d-day, and I am happier with myself and my husband as a result of how we managed our recovery! Life is good...OW is lost to both of us in spite of her repeated attempts to contact my husband.

I hold WW 100% responsible for her actions, the fact that she never was honest enough with herself, or me to bring her unhappiness into the light. She is responsible for confiding in OM, and destroying her kids & family in the process.

I hold OM 100% responsible for his actions, he KNEW she was a married woman, BEFORE he made the contact that she latched onto. This is AMORAL, and he alone is responsible for that portion. He never once told her that maybe she could be happy, if she would talk to her H (me). All he saw was a chance to have an old flame back, and to hell with the repercussions.

I have not met him yet, they are living in an apartment complex that I have to work closely with in my business. Monday I will be there for 3 hours, and I pray he is NOT, because I don't honestly know how I will react. (Please dear Lord, give me strength, wisdom, and Your Peace)

lemmon

first: i give you cudos for the subject matter... i had pondered this for a long time... the reponses... priceless...

as far as my response... i will say that i agree with miker, from the aspect of a WSs accountabilty of the choices that they make (initiating) when they go astray... but in my situation, i blame them both (percentages are irrelevent to me) because my WW told me (and i believe her) that her OM told her that she should 'go back and try to work things out with your H', and yet, she didn't try and they are still together... 16 months later... so... it seems that he knew (even if it was momentarily, it's still accountabilty, imho) the right thing to do, but chose not to... so... like it has been said many times here... and everywhere... it still takes two...

be well

samm

I "blame" them both.

Do I think she manipulated the situation most definitely. She made the 1st move - she did this even knowing that my H was married (happily or not) - she didn't want to be percieved as a "home wrecker" - she thought her own H was having an A - she was trying to get pregnant and never told my H - she resumed contact with my H and still decided to hide their contact from her H -

However, my H was a married man who "befriended" a married woman and listened to her pain (and never once concerned his own W's pain). He resumed contact with her and still decided to hide their contact from his wife. He gave her part of himself (emotionally) - that he had denied me. He (well, they), underestimated and disrespected me totally.

But, I think - knowing my H. They wouldn't have gotten "involved" (in an EA), if she never said "I think I have feelings for you as more than a friend". (Who knows???)

JMHO

Brown

I thinkall of us are accountable and responsible for the choices in life we make whether those choices are good or bad. Blame? Nope, accountability is the operative word for me.

lm - I's so disappointed that you haven't answered my request in my prior reply to this post.

Perhaps you're busy.

I do need your insight in my sitch so that I can stop blaming OM.

Thanks,
WAT

<small>[ January 22, 2005, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

LOL Lemon, this thread is still going strong....you appear to have struck a nerve <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I personally blame Lemon for all my marital problems....it's all his fault....for shame Lemon....for shame!!! LMAO

-Caren

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> I didn't read every reply on this post, so I may be repeating some ideas - maybe not.

Similar to GC with a twist: I assign responsibility for my XW's decision to seek comfort outside of our marriage 100% on her and I assign both her and OM each 100% of the decision to continue the affair.

LM, I'd be interested to see if you can defend your "OP is 0% to blame logic" here.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WAT:

Sorry I didn't respond earlier. I was on call last night and was up all night with some poor guy who put his car through a telephone pole in a drunken state. His passengers (front seat and back ---> both without a seat belt <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ) were killed. He looks like he will live. Bad night with traumas.

Anyways, it is snowing hard here now and I am in my home office with a hot cup of coffee and the fire place freshly started. There is no call responsibilties in sight and my Eagles are ready for a SuperBowl run in about 24 hours, so I am in good spirits. I will try and answer your question. I think after re-reading the thread here, I may have misled people about what I was really saying. I think it boils down to my poor literary skills in writing down what I feel and mean ( I have always been so left brained <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). WAT, I agree with you and cannot ever defend the fact that an OP willfully entered (most times---> sometimes I think they may not have known a WS was married) and continued an affair with a married spouse. That is not really a point of contention here. For many reasons, when (CERTAIN) posters see anything I post they get very defensive in any resoponse to me (that is nothing new here.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and the thread takes an always adversarial twist. ****Sigh****, LOL, things will never change here, but that is ok. Let me see if I can clarify this for you.

For ME...a big part of my personal struggles with my PERSONAL recovery of this was all of my anger and blame and resentment towards the OM. In my own (admittedly faulty) view I blamed him for a large part of the affair. I actually thought my wife was just too "weak" of a person, and that if he didn't pursue her and penetrate that weakness, my marriage would be intact. I still feel it was up TO ME to protect her weakness from him. That may be a faulty thought also. I don't know if you can ever "protect" a weak spouse from their own decisions. YES..I know about Harley's EN's questionaire...yada yada yada, but I don't PERSONALLY buy it all. I think sometimes (many times) affairs will happen despite what the BS does. Many times affairs happen when the marriage is going great, and the WS just cheats because "they can". They want the "feeling" of newness even when the relationship is great with their spouse. We eat things we know we should not eat, we drink more than we should, we smoke things we should not smoke...and we do things (sex) with people we should not be doing that with.

These feelings of hate towards the OM gutted me for a long time. It is only recently that in MY OWN MIND (now...to all who disagree...fine...but this is MY OWN f-ING OPINION HERE) I have realized that in the END, he (OM) didn't end my marriage. My wife's ACTIONS did that. Yes, I am responsible for my part in this marriage ending...but when one does the act of INFIDELITY...this surpasses everything else. He never made my wife do any of these things to my marriage. He didn't "make" her sleep with him, and he didn't "make" her betray me a thousand times over. That is why I say OP have no role or culpabalitly in the WS cheating. Ofcourse they (OP) deserve 100% repsonsibility for their actions in the affair...but I am not their judge here. They will answer for their actions at another time to a much higher power than me. They are NOT responsible for my pain and hurt...MY WW is. Yes, you would think they owe it as a human being to be decent and good natured....but in the end, it is my WS who allowed them to do this to me. That is just my point and opinion here. To answer your question....I could never defend or justify an OP for contiuning an affair and helping to destroy a family....BUT their actions and power to do this are only supplied by the Wayward Spouse.

I don't really care to change people's opinions here. That is not what this thread is about. You will notice that I rarely EVER provide advice or an opinion on someone's marriage anymore. Mine failed, so as this is a marriage building site..I feel unqualified to post about that. For me, I am personally recovering and SUCCEEDING, so I feel I can provide advice on this... IMO, personal recovery is INTEGRAL to having any chance at a marriage recovery or a new relationship...so that is why I post. (isn't this what the essence of Plan A or B or whatever is). There are other things that I can post about and provide at least a perspective on. I also like giving a QUALIFIED medical opinion on things here. It is kind of funny how many people have questions about that here. Perhaps I will join the Idiotville thread and apply for privlidges at the local idiotville general hospital (nahhhh.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I could never live with myslef if i did that). I think discussion is good even if you all disagree with me. It is all good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Honestly folks, I am usually amazed how any post I make usually has many heated responses to it. I threw this question out there because it was just something that I was thinking about. If people don't like what I write or disagree with me...that is A-ok..I am fine with that. What I can't stand is the "oh LM, please watch what you say..some people might be hurt by what you think"......We are all adults here, if you don't like my posts and are offended by my opinions....please do not read or respond. It is all so easy. There are a few posters here that I think are absolutely NUTS and define the word DOORMAT. They are needy, clingy co-dependent riddled souls. I wholeleheratedly disagree with nearly 100% of what they say and advise others on...and I have learned (or am learning) to NOT respond to their posts or make any comments on them. That doesn't help anyone. It is actually quite easy. Perhaps this should have been posted on the divorced thread, but I don't really post there and am not about to start. This is still a public forum and I don't think what I wrote or opined on is against any of the TOS. This GQ forum is where I am staying. If you (and I am not speaking to you WAT here) don't like it...please email justus@aol.com to let her know. I will be happy to cease posting on the GQ forum if I get redirection from her.

WAT, thanks for your opinions on this. I really enjoy reading your posts and I think you offer a lot of great support for people here.

Cheers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Lemon, don't stop posting here.....you're a trip, I love reading your posts. Your opinion matters to me. I think you are a very intelligent person and this is also the only forum I post in, I don't even look at the others.

You're allowed to have your opinion, and I love a good debate.......disagreeing with you doesn't mean I don't luv ya <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I absolutely do. You are a very smart man, and your topic was a valid one.....I liked responding to it, you give me something to think about almost EVERYTIME you post or reply. Maybe it's back to my having "euphoric recall" of my anger LMFAO.....it apparently brings me euphoria, per my counselors and I'll take all the euphoria I can get right about now.

-Caren

Hey Lemon! I'm glad you're sticking around because I think your perspective offers much needed balance to the syrupy interpretation that many folks give to these MB concepts. I promise you that if you ever met Willard Harley....you would find that the is much more like you than anyone here might believe. He gives "no quarter" to WSs and openly admits that if Joyce was unfaithful...he'd dump her. So stick around my friend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
These feelings of hate towards the OM gutted me for a long time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly my point ... it is a process for the BS to make this realization. Some BS make this realization sooner than others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I can't stand is the "oh LM, please watch what you say..some people might be hurt by what you think"

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said cut some people some slack and respect that this is a process. Others will arrive at the same conclusion where you (eventually) arrived. The flatter learning curve of others is oft a source of frustration for the fast learners.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are a few posters here that I think are absolutely NUTS and define the word DOORMAT. They are needy, clingy co-dependent riddled souls.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, there are. And there are X-doormats here as well..... Cherished is one. Her old name was "broken arm and broken heart" .... and you can guess why. SHE was the lowest doormat you could ever imagine... and she is becoming a rising star, a phoenix from the ashes. Her struggle has been heroic to change herself. And I honor her struggle because she came from a low point I can only imagine.

Part of the process of recovery is picking up new tools along the way and learning how to correctly use the new tool.

This is hard stuff for the most gifted and the brightest amongst us... ... and even harder for those of us who had to begin this process from a deeper hole....

Where you are is not as important as the direction you are headed.

LM ... I think you are really cool by the way. You challenge others to think, and it is a good thing that you do. And I, in turn, choose to challenge YOU! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Pep

<small>[ January 22, 2005, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

I've been keeping up with this thread and finally decided to weigh in. About a month ago I asked my IC if she thought our little OW was a predator. I told her I didn't want to just make her a predator to make myself feel better about H's infidelity. She said, "I think a predator is someone who goes after someone who is vulnerable. So yes, I think she was a predator." I asked Steve Harley that question months before and he called her a troll. Someone who is out trolling for the fun of it, and in this case caught the big fish. Somehow knowing she was a predator did make me feel somewhat better. Maybe as Pep indicated I am now moving to a more balanced perspective. I know one thing. I'm not saying out loud 100 times a day, "I hate that BI***'s "F"ing guts."

We had a year from hell. H's dad had just died, among other deaths and stressors. And I was unable to really be there for him because I was wrapped up with my very sick father. I know that OW went after H full force. I know he was vulnerable and didn't even know it. I know that she began crossing all the bounderies and finally he took the step and crossed the line. This is what Steve told me when I asked why at that choice point did he have to walk through that 1st door. Sorry, I've probably written this before. He said it's like a person who says they will be fine if they only have a few drinks. So they have those few drinks, but it turns out the few drinks got them drunk. At that point they don't have good judgement anymore and just keep having more drinks.

Of course that theory somehow makes me feel a bit better. H slowly got in too deep, and then it was too late. However, at the end of the day, he did choose to forget our M vows. He did choose to not support me during a terrible time. He chose to forget about our boys. He didn't care what a D would do to them. Now they have to deal with the legacy of H's A. Now they have this in their lives. So I guess after all these months, and understanding the addictive quality of As, a part of me still doesn't buy how the WS can walk through that A door.

I blame OW 100% for deliberately going after H and actively trying to end our M. I know he isn't the kind of man who would have pursued an A. She showed no remorse throughout the A, and whenever H wanted to end it did everything to keep him hooked. But I blame H 100% for making that choice to have an A. CV