Question for good friends of mine: They're rebuilding after the W's A. They seem to be on the right track. Then every once in a while, the H totally throws her by telling her that she really doesn't love him, or he'll say cruel things about the OM's appearance. She gets very upset and feels like giving up at that point, because in her head, she's trying her best. He says he has forgiven her, but then she thinks he's lying when he acts like this, giving her LB's.

I advised them to go back to MC, and that he should go to IC, but they're having a hard time finding someone to go to (everyone seems to have a waiting list there). She's getting tired of his "zig zag swings" as she calls it. Any advice??

CC

No advice... just a question...

How long has solid 100% NC been in place? Where are they on the timeline?

That's probably what is most important.... unless there were previous betrayals... Do you know?

Pep

Pep,

Thanks for the quick response! NC has been in place since June, I believe. There haven't been any other betrayals. She wanted other input and she's not comfortable posting, so she asked me to do it for her. The only thing I advised was MC, and to NOT even discuss the word "divorce" in the heat of arguing. I can understand the pain, and why they both lash out, but any more than that, I'm not qualified to advise...

Thanks.

CC

If she's not comfortable posting herself, that is probably what you should advise her to do ... find her own voice and use it!

Don't feed her weakness by speaking for her.

"Weakness" is probably too strong a word, but you get my drift.

Pep

BC,

I would recommend that you pat her on the hand gently and tell her that his reactions are normal. It is called the roller coaster here, but by any name it is the same deal. You said NC was about June. From what I have seen here they are about normal.

One other thought she needs to consider. His reactions are not about HER but what she and OM did to him and his pain. Let's put it this way OM is NOT filling is love bank is he? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> So the fact that he dislikes OM and probably would in his mind love to do him bodily harm is coming out in his statements. He has to work through this and it takes time.

As for him tellhing her "she doesn't love him", what do you think that is speaking to??? It sure is NOT what she is doing, it is what HE is feeling, his self-esteem is shot and it does not come right back.

Counseling would be good, but reassure her that this is pretty normal. She could come and read even if she does not want to post. She might learn something.

God Bless,

JL

B:CC,

Your friend's H LB reminded me of the following excerpt from Dr Willard Harley Jr's article titled Overcoming Resentment:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Using resentment as a way to control and punish a spouse.

Dear Dr. Harley:

My husband and I were high school sweethearts. We married right after graduation, and had our first daughter almost immediately. When our daughter was two years old, and I was 20 years old, I had sex with another man, just once, after which I felt terrible. My husband was very hurt, but we reunited and stayed together. Then, we had two more children.

After much contemplation, I feel that the reason I had sex with the other man (who I have not seen again since), was that I felt neglected and unattractive. The largest mistake I made back then, I feel, was not communicating those feelings to my husband, before I took it upon myself to be with another man to make me feel admired and attractive.

Over 10 years has passed. However, through the years, my husband has never forgotten about this. It is as fresh in his mind today as if it just happened. I feel in my heart that I have truly learned from that past experience. I was young, foolish and immature. But whenever we have a disagreement, particularly when I don't feel like having sex with him, he brings it back up. I have had to live with the reminder of my mistake, many, many times in the past 10 years.

We have had many loving, close moments since then. Along, with many arguments, always leading to my past infidelity, and the fact that I can never be trusted again. But have never separated, and have always been strong, loving parents to our children.

Please lend advice if you can. My husband is my best friend, and I know that our love runs deep for each other, as well as for our family. What can I do to help him and us get over my mistake.

S.R.


I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.

By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.

What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."

My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him.

Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. Making sure that S.K.'s husband never gets what he wants by bringing up her affair will help him overcome his resentment.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your friend's H must be made aware that his LB is sabotaging any efforts to save/rebuild the marriage. If he truly wants to forgive his W for her affair then he is going to have to promise never to bring up her affair during any of their arguments otherwise he may find that his marriage is on its last days on Earth.

TMCM

JL,

I agree--this is about his lack of self-esteem when he reaches out and LB's like that. She thinks it comes out of the blue and she's taken aback, especially after they've spent quality time together. He's obviously still hurting, and I told her that I think it's normal, BUT, I also told her that I think it will continue if he can't address it in IC.

Thanks, all, for your opinions. She'll definitely read them later!!

CC

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Buttercup:CC:
<strong> Question for good friends of mine: They're rebuilding after the W's A. They seem to be on the right track. Then every once in a while, the H totally throws her by telling her that she really doesn't love him, or he'll say cruel things about the OM's appearance. She gets very upset and feels like giving up at that point, because in her head, she's trying her best. He says he has forgiven her, but then she thinks he's lying when he acts like this, giving her LB's.

I advised them to go back to MC, and that he should go to IC, but they're having a hard time finding someone to go to (everyone seems to have a waiting list there). She's getting tired of his "zig zag swings" as she calls it. Any advice??

CC </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So is he supposed to think that the OM is a handsome, good-natured, good-hearted bloke? And I'm sure in his head, he thinks he's doing the best he can as well. So, I guess they're even there.

What's wrong with offering a soft heart and answer after one of the "You don't love me" episodes by simply saying "Yes, I do love you. I'm sorry that what I have done has resulted in you feeling unloved, but give us some time and we'll get through this."

Instead of getting your back all riled up in return.

Because it might just be a cry of need, instead of the bludgeon some want to make it.

If he points out how ugly OM was, a simple, "I'm so sorry that I brought this into our lives, but I love you and look forward to us being in a much better place - together."

Instead of getting all defensive over his assessment of OM's appearance, for pete's sake.

It takes two to fight. An individual can rage by themselves, but if it isn't his normal nature (and decades of marriage has proven that it isn't) then I think a little kindness and patience in return rather than the ever incessant need to fight back, or defend or get all huffy and offended in return would eventually defuse the situation and his need to keep dredging it up.

Every time she fights back with anger and wounded pride, she keeps the angst going. I suggest if what she has been doing hasn't been working, then she might want to adjust her actions.

And I agree that a consultation with Harley would be a good thing.

These are Love Busters:

Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty


I think we need to ask Dr. Harley to add this one:

Do not say anything that could be interpreted as disrespectful to the OP (even if it is the truth).

It hurts so much to hear the truth that this may very well be the worst LB of them all.


Good post Garmus!

<small>[ January 22, 2005, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>