I haven't posted in a while, kind of stayed away b/c of what I've been thinking and have done in the last 3 weeks.

Well I think I've come to the end of my rope. I don't know if I'm just venting or getting something off my chest or asking for advice. All I know is that I've tried for the last 3 months to Plan A. I never really went into a Plan B not really. My WW has moved out the first of Jan. and although there has been some contact b/c of our 3 kids it's not really a Plan B I think but maybe it is. I don't support her and she doesn't support me or the kids.

Well my WW is on her OM#3, at least that is what I can gather from the cell records. I think I've come to the conclusion that I don't want my WW back. I could have forgiven an A I think with time. But to continue down this road and not be repentent. I know many people have put in years of Plan A/B but I just can't get over the fact that despite the fog (and I do believe in that so a certain point) the fact is that we as a society know that Adultery is wrong. Also given the fact that my WW and I are (albeit kind of slacking) Christians if she continues with her behavior knowing full well that she's going against GOD's commandments, if she doesn't care about that, then why would she care about me.

Anyway I think her multiple A's, she's on her third OM in three months, while I've read my 3rd book, I just can't/won't take anymore. I will also admit to my fellow MBers here that I've thought about being with other woman but I'm pretty sure 99% that I won't do that b/c I don't want to be lowered to my WW's level, also b/c I'm back in the church and I know Gods' word. My church is trying to get my WW and I to reconcile, there is reluctance from both parties. I know there are many BS's here that have dealt with many A's. I just think I can't do it (insert 2x4 of your replies here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). I don't really care who she's with anymore or what she does. I no longer check up on her except for cell records and stuff like that to use for legal reasons but other than that I'm really indifferent to what she does or says.

I guess I'm just venting, thanks to this place that allows me to do that. But I still stand by my post.

native,

Sorry to say, I can understand and empathize with your position.

Abscence of any repentance or remorse, while common according to Dr Harley, can be overwhelming in its callousness.

Do what you feel is best for yourself and your children.

If her faith can be restored in God and in your marriage, that miracle will occur independent of your actions.

My prayers go with you.

native00,

Check your local DivorceCare.

No one should want WW back, only W <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

-rh-

Thanks Cy,

That's what I've been thinking lately as well. I hope that WW sees the error in her ways, but only b/c I care about her soul! I do hope that she makes it back into the church, now whether I'll still be with her I doubt it but who knows except God. At this point like you said I think I'm doing what's best for me and the kids.

RH, thanks for the link I haven't read it all yet but I know you always have good websites to research stuff on. RH I know about only wanting W back, but I should have been more clear in that I don't think I want my W back even if she was to turn around... I don't know if that is wrong or not, just how I feel.

I guess I'm breaking from MB principles here, but it "feels" like the right thing to do.

Native

<small>[ January 22, 2005, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: native00 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by native00:
<strong>I guess I'm breaking from MB principles here, but it "feels" like the right thing to do.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is ups and downs. It is normal. On the contrary, not every M should be saved and could be saved. However we are here to give supports to make sure that you could arrive to your decision rationally.

cheers, as LM put it ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> -rh-

Thanks RH,

That's the point though I don't feel any ups and downs anymore b/c I feel I've gotten off the Rollercoaster. Maybe I'm in denial and in reality in a down point. It's just that I feel good in my 3 months in trying to reconcile, and I could walk away right now knowing that I tried (although 3 months does seem a short time)

Maybe I am in denial but like I said I feel indifferent and rational.

Thanks RH for the previous Website, I found a few churches in my area, but I like my church and I think they will help me and won't judge me as I'm choosing to continue on with the D process.

Native

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by native00:
<strong>Thanks RH for the previous Website, I found a few churches in my area, but I like my church and I think they will help me and won't judge me as I'm choosing to continue on with the D process.

Native </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DV Care has excelent video tapes to help you move on. We have many non-members even non-beleivers come and get support. Try it once before you make up your mind.

Actually I won't judge you at all ... this is a safe place to get support as long as you become OM or WS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .

Again you are not plan A for 3 months you did it longer than that w/o knowing. There is no specific time frame for plan A, if a perfect spouse comes here for help I would definitly advice him/her to plan B right away. There is nothing to do but to plan B.

-rh-

Yeah I hear you RH, I'll probably give one of the DV care churches a call to see what they have to offer, couldn't hurt right.

Yeah I'm just going to continue with my sort of Plan B for the duration of the legal process. I've already given my WW into God's hands, as well as me and the kids. I don't want back on that ride <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Time will tell how all this plays out. Like I said though even if WW changed into W, I don't know if I'd want to reconcile, if that were to happen (which I'm really doubting) I guess I'd have to reassess the sitch to see if I would want to or not, but I'm thinking no at this point.

Native

native00,

I understand your position, I have been there too. If your W wants to come back, you could date your W first.

What have you been doing for yourself ?.

-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by redhat:
<strong> ...Actually I won't judge you at all ... this is a safe place to get support as long as you become OM or WS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .........


-rh- </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RH, you mean DON'T become an OM or WS, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>RH, you mean DON'T become an OM or WS, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL! of course ... probably freudian slip while thinking native would do such a thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .

Thanks for correcting me, sis ... -rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will also admit to my fellow MBers here that I've thought about being with other woman but I'm pretty sure 99% that I won't do that b/c I don't want to be lowered to my WW's level, also b/c I'm back in the church and I know Gods' word. My church is trying to get my WW and I to reconcile, there is reluctance from both parties. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Native - It is good that you are back in church and in His Word.

Understand that your church is trying to get you and your wife to reconcile for two primary reasons; 1) Helping fellow believers in difficult times is part of what churches DO, and 2) God hates divorce so they are trying to help before you decide to call it quits for real.

Native, God allows divorce for reasons of marital unfaithfulness. You have both the legal and religious grounds for a divorce. But it should be the last choice; not the first, nor an early choice. Native, I have been at the "throw in towel" point several times during the past 2 1/2 years of our recovery, so I think I understand your "feeling."

However, "3 Months" is a very short but very painful time. I know because it was 3 months from when my wife and I had our initial d-day until she "chose" the OM and moved out of our house. I also was certain that it was "hopeless," after all, she was in a 6 year long, continuous, affair and had everything planned for a divorce from me and a marriage to the OM.

BUT, God is in the business of miracles. God IS a partner to your covenant of marriage. God gives you, the faithful partner, the right to divorce if YOU, for whatever reason, can't surrender yourself totally to God(i.e. your feelings of hurt and revenge,etc.) or if your spouse willfully and deliberately denounces Christ through her words and/or actions.

Native, IF your wife had a true saving faith, truly surrendered her life to Christ, at some point, then she is a "lost sheep" who God WILL go and find and lead back to His flock. If she did not, then she is an unbeliever who is choosing to leave the marriage, and you can let the unbeliever go, because you should never have chosen to be unevenly yoked in the first place.

Native, no one doubts the pain and anguish you feel. No one doubts your right to feel as you do. All that I and anyone else would are questions for YOU to think about BEFORE you take actions that you might regret later.

Was/is your wife a believer or an unbeliever?

You married "for better or for worse," what's not include in "for worse?"

You married promising to stay with your wife "in sickness and in health." Is mental and/or emotional sickness not included in your covenant?

You covenanted with God and your wife to remain married, in a one flesh union, "until death do you part." I take it that 3 months or a year or some other timeframe is your equivalent of "lifetime until death."

Native, I am not trying to make light of your pain or tell you to remain in a marriage when your wife is blatantly sinning against God and you. I am telling you that 3 months is "nothing." Yes, I know that when you are going through it, it seems like 3 years. Time distortion is part of the problem of severe trauma.

Native, I fully support a Plan B action, from what you have described of your wife's actions. Understand that we would all love to see your marriage restored, but that may not be possible. The purpose of a good Plan B would be twofold. 1)To help your wife understand that she is sinning mightily against God and must repent and return to obedience to God, and 2)to protect your love for your wife so that IF she repents you MAY be able to enter recovery and rebuild a "new life together" in your marriage.

Native, adultery is a very difficult sin to overcome. It is a sin against one's own body. You and your wife ARE "one flesh" and the "bride" of Christ. God KNOWS the seriousness of adultery and He knows that even though we love Him and try to be obedient to Him, we are still "flawed" in our current "fallen" bodies. We are not yet "perfected" and do not yet have our glorified bodies. God KNOWS how to forgive and has taught us how to forgive, but He also knows that forgiveness has "2 catches" to it for us mere humans:

1) We must control our own natural instincts in order to be able to "forgive AS Christ has forgiven us." It's NOT easy, and we really can only do it with Christ's strength, because our own strength is not strong enough and will fail us. This is partly embodied in the admonition about righteous anger over sin: "be angry, but in you anger do not also sin."

2) Forgiveness of sin does NOT release us from all consequences of sin. We still often have to live with the results of past choices to sin. Some of those consequences may be "too hard" for us to overcome or to "live with." Hence, you CAN still forgive the sin, but proceed with a divorce on the grounds of adultery because YOU can't live with whatever the "consequence(s)" in question are. Native, understand that in a "perfect world" you would be able to forgive totally and completely "as God has forgiven us in Christ." We DON'T forget. We forgive. Forgiveness leads to RECONCILIATION, not forgetting. God doesn't forget, but He does put the sin so far away it's as if it never existed. We are NOT God. We have a God-given memory. We have God-given emotions.

What is so hard for us to deal with is that we belong to God and were created for God. We ask, "what's in it for me?" But we are created to bring honor and glory to God. We are to obey God out of love for Him and we CHOOSE God over self and sin. Christ is our "model" of a long-suffering bridegroom. How many "adulteries" has He patiently endured while waiting on us to come to our senses?

How long are you willing to wait? How long will you simply "endure" while waiting on the Lord to work in your wife's life? What example will you set for your children as to "how much is too much and how long is too long" when someone you love is sinning against you?

Native, I understand how hard it is brother. You are in my prayers. Understand, too, that God is also a God of Peace. There is a time. God has given you the right. The only question really remaining is "how long" before you "give up the fight and exercise your right?" God's message to your wife is equally plain and simple; "Go and immediately leave your life of sin." "Repent and turn to God in humble obedience and to your covenant of marriage to both Christ and your husband."

May God grant you His wisdom and peace. God bless.

<small>[ January 23, 2005, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

native, no advice. Just wanted to let you know I've read and am thinking of you.

foreverhers,

Thank you for your inspirational guidance.

I hope we all read this post again and again. I know I will.

<small>[ January 23, 2005, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Cymanca ]</small>

Thanks so much to Orchid, RH, Aislinn, Cy and very much Forever!

I truly don't want to become an OM. Actually after just posting that I WOULD never do this to a family. I guess what I should have said was that I've thought about seeing other women, not married women, but I know that would be wrong and I'm 99% sure I won't do that.

Forever:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Understand that your church is trying to get you and your wife to reconcile for two primary reasons; 1) Helping fellow believers in difficult times is part of what churches DO, and 2) God hates divorce so they are trying to help before you decide to call it quits for real. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Forever, I know my church really wants to get us back together b/c that is there buisness. Helping the members of the church. Truth be told my WW and I have been members of this church since we were little. After I joined the Marines and left for California we left the church and haven't been back until now. I feel guilty of this also since now I'm only turning to the church in my time of need. Where was I when the church could have used some of my help (I can move furniture <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) I feel guitly there.

I've been thinking about this also in that what if my WW only comes back to me b/c of the church? That she doesn't really love me (which is obvious from her behavior) I know you have to rebuild the love, but I don't want her coming back just b/c the church says so. I want her to choose me, I guess I'm asking for too much here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However, "3 Months" is a very short but very painful time. I know because it was 3 months from when my wife and I had our initial d-day until she "chose" the OM and moved out of our house. I also was certain that it was "hopeless," after all, she was in a 6 year long, continuous, affair and had everything planned for a divorce from me and a marriage to the OM.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We all know there are several variations of A's according to SAA. If my WW was involved with what she thought was her "soulmate" and that she actually thought she was in love I think I could take that easier. Although according to SAA that type of affair is harder to break. My WW seems to be in a kind of ONS sitch, she's had 3 men in 3 months.

From the beginning she has been trying to lead a single life, this is a maturity issue for her. And now it seems that I see her true colors. This pains me to think and type this but I feel that my WW has become a slut. This is the root of the problem. Both my WW and I were married young and she was a virgin and I only had a few sexual partners. If she had a few partners before we were married that wouldn't have been a problem obviously. But we were/still are married and now she has gone to bed with 3 different men. The first of which she got an STD from, that I had to find out on my own.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Native, IF your wife had a true saving faith, truly surrendered her life to Christ, at some point, then she is a "lost sheep" who God WILL go and find and lead back to His flock. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the case and I know that someday God will bring her back, and I know that we don't know God's timeline. I also know that God knows our limitations and how much pain we can endure, my MIL who feels my pain has told me many times that God will release me when the time comes. MIL has actually supported me on if I want to D her daughter or not. She is very loving, caring, and religious she has been a great comfort in all this.

Forever your words are so wise and give me much to think about. Everything that you have posted I have heard from MIL, the church, and to be honest from my own heart as I've been raised in the church and have now become that "lost sheep that has returned".

I totally see how 3 months is absolutely nothing in the scheme of live. I feel good in my Plan A and what I have done to try and save my M and I feel that I would have no regrets, course I could be wrong.

It's just 3 men in 3 months....

For better or for worse? Well the same could be said to every WS here. For me, I think Adultery would be very close to worse in every BS's thinking.

Much to think about.

So Forever did your WW choose you and become repentant and disgusted by her actions during her A? How did you get over the thought of her and OM together?

I know my pain has been felt by many other BS's here and some BS's have probably even had much more pain. I'm not trying to monopolize the pain dept. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , like I said I really don't feel that much pain anymore as I really don't care what she does at this point. Maybe I didn't go into Plan B soon enough. I don't think I have any love for WW left, her actions and behavior and her 3 OM have totally destroyed that in me.

Thank you all for your kind words!
Native

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I never really went into a Plan B not really. My WW has moved out the first of Jan. and although there has been some contact b/c of our 3 kids it's not really a Plan B I think but maybe it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it's not. In Plan B, you write a loving Plan B letter. You say what the conditions for recovery would be. Then you cut the cord.

Why don't you try Plan B BEFORE you cut the cord? If nothing else, it's ending on a good note -- even if you have to find the last three cannisters of affection in the basement of your love to write it.

A.M,

Good point, I never did write the letter. I guess I should take your advice, what have I got to loose. But thats the thing though isn't it? Even if my WW turned into a W, I don't know what my answer would be.

I guess I'll write the letter and start Plan B while the legal process moves along.

How will about 1 1/2 canisters do?

Native

In a Plan B letter, you are not promising reconciliation if conditions are met. You are offering to renew communication when conditions are met. The WS is taking chances by letting the situation continue -- reconciliation may or may not be possible when and if they are "ready."

Post your PBL here. You'll get plenty of good input.

I know about the 1-1/2 cannisters. I'm a pretty good letter writer, but I had to plagiarize heavily from other PBLs because so much feeling had been deadened by the time I wrote mine. But it was a good final note, and enormously freeing for that beloved cliche, "moving on."

A.M.

I understand the PBL, and I have read a few on the boards here and I also think that I'd have to steal a few lines from some of the fine publishers on the board.

I'm going to have to do some thinking on this before I start writing. I may have to take a break and do some soulsearching to see if I really want this M to work or not. I don't see point of writing the PBL or openening the lines of communication if I don't want the M to work.

I have a lot to think about thanks to all the great people here... Orchid, Redhat, A.M, ForeverH, Aislinn, and the many others during the past 3 months.

Native

Native -

I just wanted to chime in and let you know how much I can relate to exactly where you are right now. I too am ready to give up. In fact, I sorta already have. I revealed in my update thread that I sought out, and had a ONS recently. I acted on my pain and ripped apart self esteem. I knew (and know) it was wrong, but chose to do it anyway. Now I am not going to lie to you and say, "I am so very regretful" or "Don't do it, learn from my mistakes", because right now I feel justified.....later on might be a very different story.

All I can say is you will be better off keeping your conscience clear whether now or in the future. Take the high road - its always better there.

TM