Noodle,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He lied to me again. I was asking him questions this morning about the A. I asked him a specific question that I had asked him a few weeks ago. This time I got a different answer. He thinks it pointless for me to want answers to questions that will probably be painful. He sees it as not productive to our recovery, and that I'm just looking for a reason to be mad at him. Does that justify lying to me? He may think that it's lying to me to protect me. I think it's lying to protect HIM. I'M SICK OF THE WAY HE PROTECTS ME!!! I'M SICK OF HIM SUGARCOATING THINGS!!!! It only distorts everything to me. His protection is not protection. His method of trying to protect my feelings is the reason I'm in this situation!

I need help! I have no idea what to do or how to make a decision, or if I even have a decision to make. I do love him, or who I thought he was. I don't know who he is now. I don't know what's real, what is a lie, and what is simply wishful thinking.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can relate very much to all of this. All of my H's lies are MY fault or were to protect ME. I told him that I thought our marriage was in trouble and he told me that it was fine and I worried too much, all he wanted was to make me happy and if I would just be happy then everything would be fine. This was one of the few things (lies) conversed about in the 2 weeks -and this one 2 days- before I taped him saying exactly the opposite. On tape to OW (or to self as he claims), he went on and on about how unhappy he was, how Him: " maybe I should talk to her, tell her that I don't love her anymore, and we are complete opposites". To which a woman's voice responded (faintly, and he claims inaudibly) "Yeah, XXX (a name that he is only called at work), talk to her".

Sorry, not trying to threadjack, but these ARE LIES... and LIES are LIES. White lies can be to protect someone, but I am with Dr. H, still not good. These kind of things, above and your post, are JUST PLAIN LIES. After D-day, my H lied to me and I caught him about some big stuff. IT also was "to protect", but HIM, not ME!! CAs do this and even us that are not typically CA do this occassionally. But, esp. after BIG LIES, like A, when rebuilding trust, or attempting to, any lie is simply unacceptable.

Unfortunately, I don't know what to do about it, so I guess I am wasting your time. We can't make our S tell us what we don't know happened (or is in their mind).

I do believe Patriot is trying, I have read some of his posts. I don't think you are supposed to be "grateful" for this, but know that NOW it "seems" that he wants his M to work. That is not a lot to ask, but for a WS, it seems that it is. Not fair, boy do I know!! I always tell my kids, "Life is not fair, get used to it".

Of course your WH should do EVERYTHING within his power, his convenience and comfort level aside, to make it so YOU do not have to deal with it anymore than you "have" to. He should do EVERYTHING to make you feel better and help rebuild trust. And this includes not "protecting" you, when in reality he is protecting himself also...and probably more so.

JMHO ( and for MB, it is very humble), not doing so well here either..the whole "decision" thing is often hanging over my head also. If there is a decision to be made, perhaps it would be what will happen when he disrepects your boundaries (i.e. being lied to). I hope others will give you some ideas here, because no matter what, I don't really know how to get respect for boundaries, esp, w/o giving ultimatums. There was a thread on that a long time ago, hmm, might have been on the Emotional Needs forum.
I read it, kep it somewhere tho and still didn't quite get it! I truly hope you can do better.

jls

White Dove,

I'm not sure how your H can use anything you post against you. You only seem to be looking for answers to questions you have to make your marriage to him stronger and talking about your feelings. I know it is sometimes difficult for WS to come here to post also, but there are several who do, including Patriot. Your H might find a good support system himself if he chose to. I know Patriot would be glad to talk to him. Even if, for no other reason, than just to feel understood. There are many people here who have been in the same situation he's in who could lend him some support.

I guess I should feel lucky - in comparison. Sometimes I do, but usually I don't. This is hard. Every day is a struggle even though Patriot is very kind to me. I don't think I would be able to even try this if he weren't. The pain is so great that sometimes I truly pray for death. You said Patriot now realizes what I mean to him, and I'm glad. Maybe if his A had been simply a ONS it would be easier to deal with than the fact that it was a 1 1/2 year long A with details that are so vile that it sometimes makes me wonder who he really is. I don't see how he could do some of the things he did and then come home to me and act like he was so in love with me and everything was perfect. If he could act like that then, who's to say he isn't "acting" now?

I am very proud of you for revealing to the OWH. I know that wasn't easy for you. It sure wasn't easy or pleasant for me. I'm a bit confused as to why he thinks your actions are what hurt her marriage? It was HIS and OW's actions that hurt her marriage. I kind of wonder why someone who is having an A would be in MC. That seems kind of hypocritical to me. There is not a lot about an A that makes sense. Your revealing to the OWH helps their marriage because they will no longer be participating in a marriage of lies, unless they choose to do so now. Now at least they have the opportunity to deal with what is real and maybe improve their marriage based on the facts. You did the right thing, though I think it is pretty normal for your H to be angry. I think they call it 'fog talk'.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even though the next day he came back, the bottom line is that he says this is the way that he feels and I need to deal with it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Need to deal with what? His anger over the fact that you revealed? Or is there more to that statement?

I am not a very good translator of fog talk, but there are others on this forum who are.

Your H either wants to have a strong M or he doesn't. Is he willing to do the work? Are you? It's not easy at all. I have told you about all the studying, MC, reading, filling out questionnaires and other things that Patriot and I have been doing - and still we struggle. It's hard work. If your H is not interested in doing the work, you might also talk to some others on this forum about Plan A.

Your family is in our prayers, as well. Hang in there.

Froz

JlSeagull,

I really want to respond to your post, but I have to get out the door. I will be back in a couple of hours.

Frozen

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: frozen1229 ]</small>

Froz:

There is more that I would like to say about my situation but I can't on this forum.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your H either wants to have a strong M or he doesn't. Is he willing to do the work? Are you? It's not easy at all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the problem, he doesn't want a strong M, he ISN'T willing to do the work. He only wants to be in this M as long as it is benefical to him. He doesn't care whether I'm truely happy or not. You know the TAKER syndrome <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Need to deal with what? His anger over the fact that you revealed? Or is there more to that statement? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will try to clarify, remember he told me I should have thought about what revealing the A would do to the OW M. He feels strongly that I was wrong in revealing it. I told him what I'm hearing is that he is taking up for OW, protecting her from getting hurt. He has not once stood up to the OW and letting her know what I mean to him. He didn't copy me in his reply email to her, which I felt like he shouldn't have replied at all, by doing so again let her know that she can deal with my H at anytime without me. His anger was all about protecting her. And doesn't feel like I should be hurt by his words on this matter.

I'm on my way home from work...i will finish this later.

White Dove,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is more that I would like to say about my situation but I can't on this forum.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you would feel more comfortable conversing through e-mail, you can send to


Post to me when you receive this so I can delete it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the problem, he doesn't want a strong M, he ISN'T willing to do the work. He only wants to be in this M as long as it is benefical to him. He doesn't care whether I'm truely happy or not.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really? Is that acceptable to you? I'm not trying to advocate divorce at all, but if this is truly the situation and you have no hope that he will have a change of heart on this subject, it might be time to set some boundaries for yourself concerning what you are willing to deal with and what you are not. I sure wish some experienced MB'ers would post something to you on this subject. I feel ill-equipped to offer advice on this and it's a pretty important subject. I sure would hate to offer inexperienced advice. It may be a subject too close to home for me, being a BS.

If your H is not willing to work on your M and he has not stopped contact with OW, then maybe that's a situation where Plan A would be effective. I have no experience with Plan A or Plan B. Patriot fortunately (as far as I know) stopped all contact immediately after D-Day. He sent a NC e-mail before we ever even found MB and knew precisely what a NC letter was.

I can certainly understand how you would feel as though he were protecting OW (and himself) as opposed to protecting his wife and marriage. Keep in mind that we got married a month after D-Day. I wasn't really in a position to Plan A or Plan B him, and I realize that things get a little more complicated for you since you are already married. Either plan might be worth at least exploring to you. If you posted a question asking for information on Plan A or Plan B, I'm sure you would get a lot of good advice from the experts on here. I realize that you are being 'monitored'. Perhaps you could post under a different name. If that doesn't solve your dilemna, you could e-mail me posts and I could post them for you.

I'm very sorry that you are in this situation. I know it is difficult for you.

Froz

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: frozen1229 ]</small>

JlSeagull,

You were not threadjacking in the least!

I hope your H now realizes that his lying does not protect you. It has taken us a while, but we seem to making progress where this topic is concerned. I now realize how my behavior made it more difficult and very unsafe for Patriot to be honest (not excusing lying). When Patriot would answer a question I had about his A, I would get extremely emotional (cry, clear counters with a single swoop, tell him I hated him, etc...) and verbally 'attack' him. I felt like I was entitled because it was an understandable reaction. I have since learned that, while understandable, it was pretty destructive and not conducive to recovery. He is working very hard on being honest. In an attempt to make it safer for him to be honest, we devised our 'notebook' method. He wrote out some of the horrors of his affair in a notebook and then left it for me to read when I chose to. I wrote in the notebook any questions or comments I had regarding the information he gave me. I tried to state simply how I felt without attacking and I only did it on the really painful parts. On one part I just wrote something like "This is extremely hurtful to me because..." He also shared quite a bit with me in the notebook about how fearful he was that what he was writing would cause me to want to leave him. Even though what he wrote was EXTREMELY painful for me, I did want to reassure him that I do love him and appreciate his putting my need for honesty above any discomfort he might have in doing so. I was disgusted and hurt and angry, but let's face it...he had an A, I didn't expect it to be pretty - and it wasn't. We have a lot more 'notebooking' to do, but hopefully my actions have made him feel accepted. He did say that he was so relieved that I made it safer for him to be honest. I wish I would have known in the beginning (D-Day, and just after) what I know now. I'm not proud of some of my actions.

I'm so sorry about the conversation you taped and what you overheard your H say. I know that had to be very painful for you.

As far as my boundaries go, I definitely have them in place. I could never use either plan A or plan B. If he breaks NC or has another A, I'm gone. There will be no second chance where that's concerned. I realize that recovery is a learning process and I don't expect him to be perfect on everything (as long as we are making progress), but these two conditions are non-negotiable. No matter how much it hurt to leave him I would make myself do it. I've endured way too much pain in my life, and from him, to fight a losing battle. I won't do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do believe Patriot is trying, I have read some of his posts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know he sounds very committed and loving. You should have heard how committed and loving he sounded towards me during his A!!! No one who knows him would believe this whole thing if they knew the truth. Everyone thought he was such a great guy to me. Sometimes I think about it now and I can't believe this is happening to us. Wow, he sure did make everything seem so perfect before. I had no warning signs or red flags whatsoever! He didn't even have time unaccounted for! He conducted his A during work hours. How was I to know I couldn't even trust him while he was at work? How am I to know I can trust him while he is at work now? All of that makes it incredibly difficult to believe what he says now.

Thanks for posting to me. I'm sorry you are in this situation.

Frozen

Not that I mean to be destructive here... but these days, I don't have time for crap.

Hey, White-dove's Husband. I hope you are reading this. I have a very simple task for you.


Pull your head out of your fourth point of contact.

Right now.

Be civil to your wife, regardless of if she is or isn't being civil to you. Maybe you should read something and formulate an opinion on empirical evidence instead of 'Hey... this sucks. I feel bad, and now I can't believe she ratted me out!!!' There is plenty of advice here from Dr. Harley or from others on this board.

First, she didn't rat you out. She told the OPS about the happenings for any number of good reasons. One of them could be telling this other person's spouse that they have been sexually active outside of marriage and possibly STD checks and various other things are in order. WHAT! You are sure you don't have any STDs??? Better make sure. Nothing says Merry Christmas like an itch you can't scratch. Hate to be wrong on crap like that.

If you want to rebuild your marriage, then find out how. Don't think you know the answers, because you don't. Neither do I. Tell you what though... I am in the same boat as you, so to say, so grab a paddle. I've got mine. If you want help, ask for it.

Even the strongest of men ask for help. It is the strong man that knows he needs it.

patriot

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: patriot92 ]</small>

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: patriot92 ]</small>

Hi Frozen and Patriot,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> know he sounds very committed and loving. You should have heard how committed and loving he sounded towards me during his A!!! No one who knows him would believe this whole thing if they knew the truth. Everyone thought he was such a great guy to me. Sometimes I think about it now and I can't believe this is happening to us. Wow, he sure did make everything seem so perfect before. I had no warning signs or red flags whatsoever! He didn't even have time unaccounted for! He conducted his A during work hours. How was I to know I couldn't even trust him while he was at work? How am I to know I can trust him while he is at work now? All of that makes it incredibly difficult to believe what he says now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I know that my H's "inappropriate (sp?)conversations" went on during work hours also and were (most likely) with someone from work. This does make it particularly hard to trust, because I (and prob you) cannot make them account for time that was never unaccounted for! And my H works for a research facility, there is NO comings and goings of outsiders (including, or maybe esp. jealous wives). I absolutely CANNOT check up on him there.

I can REALLY appreciate your notebook concept!! My H is CA, as I stated. I also have not always made it safe for him to talk to me..I sincerely agree (and have been working very hard myself) that angry outbursts, while entirely understandable given the sitch, are NOT condusive to a good strong marriage, or the recovery of one! I will assume, that while you had no suspicions before, you are probably more alerted to every possible "red flag" now. Not that this is good either, but again, understandable. I hope tht you and Patriot continue to work thru this so admirably (admirable of both of you). And I hope that you continue to post, not onlu so that we can follow your recovery, but also to let us in on those great concepts, like the notebook communication concept!!

and
patriot..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not that I mean to be destructive here... but these days, I don't have time for crap. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't blame you!!
I didn't see your second post before you edited it. Hope it was just a double post and that I didn't make you angry at me also!!

jls

Froz i sent you an email and i will post later...this has been a very very ruff weekend, going to try and get some sleep. But I will post again in the morning.

Thanks Patriot for you support keep up the good work you guys. Your hard work is guarenteed to payoff and God will bless you for it!

I hope I don't come off as patronising with what I say here.

I have been following y'alls story pretty closely. I maybe imagining things, Patriot, but this post seems to have a different feel to it than most of your prior ones.

This one seems to come from a strong man who takes responsibility for his actions and is gonna do whatever it takes to recover his wife and his marriage. Offering no excuses, looking the situation square in the eye, and being absolutely honest in trying to regain his dignity and honor.

I might be reading too much into it, text being an inaccurate medium and all, but I am liking the sound of this a lot.

All the best,

-OAK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by patriot92:
<strong> Not that I mean to be destructive here... but these days, I don't have time for crap.

Hey, White-dove's Husband. I hope you are reading this. I have a very simple task for you.


Pull your head out of your fourth point of contact.

Right now.

Be civil to your wife, regardless of if she is or isn't being civil to you. Maybe you should read something and formulate an opinion on empirical evidence instead of 'Hey... this sucks. I feel bad, and now I can't believe she ratted me out!!!' There is plenty of advice here from Dr. Harley or from others on this board.

First, she didn't rat you out. She told the OPS about the happenings for any number of good reasons. One of them could be telling this other person's spouse that they have been sexually active outside of marriage and possibly STD checks and various other things are in order. WHAT! You are sure you don't have any STDs??? Better make sure. Nothing says Merry Christmas like an itch you can't scratch. Hate to be wrong on crap like that.

If you want to rebuild your marriage, then find out how. Don't think you know the answers, because you don't. Neither do I. Tell you what though... I am in the same boat as you, so to say, so grab a paddle. I've got mine. If you want help, ask for it.

Even the strongest of men ask for help. It is the strong man that knows he needs it.

patriot </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: white_dove777 ]</small>