Mark,

The guys are giving you good support and I'd like to add that you need to be able to differentiate from fog babble ot legitimate complaints.

Right now her jounraling is full of fog babble. If you play it cool and NOT say anything, you could really cause her to burst that bubble she is creating.

Her blow ups with the children and yourself is a sign that she is not in control. Expect her to create false charges against you and make more trouble for you and the children.

So prepare yourself and your children. Make sure all of you know you and the children are a 1 pkg deal. The decisions you make will be for the family. The WS is angry because her A is NOT supported by her family.

Where are you at with discussing this with your children? Get their input, give them your support and reassurance that their dad will not abandon them or subject them to the same type of vile WS treatment. Pull together as a family and meet this alien, head on.

JMHO,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Suck it up and keep your chin up. Until you can look past this crap, she's winning. She HAS NO IDEA that she sounds just like all the rest, but you do! Take advantage of your knowledge!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It took me most of 4 months to figure this out. Once I did I was *much* better off. I started acting different and it showed.

Instead of her being mad at me for being a wimp or pretty boy she was mad at me for laughing at the cr@p coming out of her mouth.

I inadvertantly kissed her backside for most of the time after d-day...I finally figured out that I did not need her and I started acting like that.

Since then things are much more equal between us and we are getting along better than we have in a couple of years. Best part is that I don't take anything she says out of spite to heart. I finally figured out that was all it was...trashy spite.

Point is, don't walk on egg shells. Life is to short and if your mate does not come around then you are probably better off without so you can find someone that *will* respect you.

Orchid's reverse babble is awesome...I finally figured it out and trained myself to use it. I am sooo glad I did.

Yeah - my W wrote that too...

Guys, the key is YOU. NOT your marriage. You control one thing - YOU.

It took me 3 months too finally 'Get It'. I stopped snooping and obsessing then. I let it go and gave it to God. Shortly afterwards I found serenity and happiness. I asked (and continue to ask each day) for guidance and wisdom to be a better father, husband, and man. Slowly, my W began to want me in her life and fill her EN's again.

Mark - you don't really need to read her journals/PC. Everything she wrote you already knew...

Gib

Orchid,

I haven't told the children anything. I haven't even said mommy and daddy are having problems or fighting.

I'm sure they sense somthing is wrong and amybe not sure what it is.

Also they are 12, 10, amd 7 - and dragging them into this a bit mean, don't you think. If we split that would be a different story. I couldn't say 'mommy and daddy just don't get along' after all what kind of answer is that. I'd probably say 'your mommy decided she doesn't love me anymore. I still love her though, she's welcome back at any time (if that's still the truth), and of course I love all of you!

Right now all I'd accomplish is pushing my wife right out the door. That is a big time LB. I should have been more patient with my exposure and little bit sneaky about it. Like mailing an anonymous note, or a copy of one of my wifes letters (with her name blacked out).

Then I could just denie all knowledge, just like her.

Hang in there! This sounds o so familure. I fouht with my wife, her special freind(my freind), and his wife for eight months before she woke up. I took the aproach of understanding why she did it and how it happened. I tried to even explain to her I could understand how she fell into it. She now has admitted her fellings about her EA to me. Don't give up. Try to read some books like HNHN's and Light Her Fire. They might help you regain that love in your marriage. It will take alot on your part and you can't expect your W to help. You'll have to tack the lead and expect regection at times. Best wishes.

Hang in there! This sounds o so familure. I fouht with my wife, her special freind(my freind), and his wife for eight months before she woke up. I took the aproach of understanding why she did it and how it happened. I tried to even explain to her I could understand how she fell into it. She now has admitted her fellings about her EA to me. Don't give up. Try to read some books like HNHN's and Light Her Fire. They might help you regain that love in your marriage. It will take alot on your part and you can't expect your W to help. You'll have to tack the lead and expect regection at times. Best wishes.

Mark,

Amongst all the babble, this line stood out to me:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know you have a lot to say and if you eventually let things out, you will not be nice about it </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would assume that you have been angry before and lovebusted. If she can be convinced that that is something that you have truly changed and that it is now safe for her to talk to you and tell you anything without fear of punishment, you may find her opening up a bit more.

Mark,

You gotta stop kicking yourself for exposure. It's in the past. You made a decision based upon the information that you had at the time. You took a risk and you really have no idea at this point whether in the long run it will pay off or not. You don't know that things wouldn't be just as bad or worse had you not exposed. She is very angry with you but I strongly suspect that she was very angry before you exposed. She is using your action to give her an excuse to continue to be angry with you and to disregard her own behavior and feelings of guilt.

Naturaly she didn't want OM's wife to know, Naturally she wanted to handle things her way but handling things her way was how the A started in the first place. Once she crossed that line she demonstrated her inability to handle things and lost her right to independent action. This affects your children and your family.

Do you really think it was the wrong thing to do? If so, have you apologized to your wife for it?

I wrote a heart felt apology a while back. I put it with a single rose on her pillow. She thanked me for the rose after lambasting me that my words mean nothing.

As for her being affraid to confront me I understand why. We would let issue brew until - you know. Then she'd approach with the nastiness and I'd respond in kind - it just got worse from there. Remember I drank, ever argue with a drunk? I'm better now but I did act up a little lately. One night she was getting under my skin big time and I said 'how did it feel using the phone card to call him - exciting, guilty, etc. Her response - 'f... you'.

I called her and left a message on her voicemail appologizing for that.

I think she feels I am outragously mad. Wouldn't you. I've become fairly numb and probably what I think is worse then what she would tell me anyway.

BTW - she seemed a little more pleasent, but I still felt very anxious. I guess that due to my conditioning for the past 2 months.

<small>[ February 15, 2005, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: MarkNY ]</small>

I read Orchids fog babble stuff. I heard a lot of those things. All of simular things are in her journal that I posted. What I want about the 'WS script' is what to expect next. After 'fog babble'what follows? I was thinking of gathering my thoughs and questions I have about her and the EA. Hard questions to ask and very hard to answer.

I want to ask things like 'was it ever physical?; What does he do for you that you feel I can't do?; Do/did you love him?; Do you want to stay married to me?'

While I have these questions, I'm not sure I want to hear the answers, especially to the last one. But that one is probably the most important one. My therapist has been driving me to get that answer. Sometimes I just feel like waving the white flag and helping her with her plan to leave. If I make her so miserable set her free. I do love her and while I don't want her to leave, I'm entertaining this selfless last act.

On a positive note the rollercoaster ride was a bit more pleasant yesterday. I got a thank you for the roses at least and virtually no snide remarks. Could that be a break in the fog? When will I know she's ready to move on, either way?

Mark,

The "thank you" for the roses is positve. I'm a little concerned about your therapist's advice. Plan A means not initiating any relationship talks, not asking her a lot of questions that she doesn't know the answers to - no pressuring.

My therapist says I need the answer of whether or not to move on. He says sometimes I have to ask questions that might yield answers I don't want to hear. In other words brace yourself Mark you might hear 'Its over'.

His view is this makes a difference about how to procede with therapy. If the relationship is DOA then forget it and work on my new life. I've told him that while I get no direct answer I am fairly certain she is still on the fence.

I ran some of these ideas by him, and his advice to me was 'do what in your heart feels right'. But he does recomend I work on myself and become a better person as the best chance of winning her back. He also cautioned my there is little left of my relationship, and pressuring her will make her leave for certain.

So how long should I avoid relationship talk? What if she initiates it? Should I be prepared somehow?

In other words how do I deal with it if tonight I go home and the kids are at her sisters and she says 'we need to talk'.

Also a little confused about anti-babble. Last night I was worried that she would say 'I don't love you' about the roses.

I said 'I love you and they're a gift from the heart'. If she came back with one of those not in love things i was going to ask 'in all seriousness are you in love with someone else?'

Would that be a LB?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MarkNY:
<strong>I have always said that you are a great father. That has never been a question. But I have said for a very long time (When I was still Part-time at [Employer], if you need to know when approximately) that you make a lousy husband. That is the part that I just cannot tolerate anymore. I thought that I could change you after we married, but you made it not so. After so many years of trying, and expecting you to do better because I asked you to and you supposedly loved me, I got tired of waiting. I think at some point in time, I just snapped and had enough. When? I don’t know, but just like everything else, it did not happen overnight. You can try to change now all that you want. It does not impress me. It does not excite me. . . it is not YOU with the problem, it is US. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will be the lone dissenter here. While I certainly DO NOT CONDONE your W's actions by pursuing an EA with another man, this letter helps me understand the despair behind them.

It was my H who had the affair, but often I am surprised that I was not the one who did so. This letter reveals your W's desperate unhappiness with your marriage. It is NOT all fog babble. It is a message to you. Read it. Understand it. Heed it. I could have written it myself.

I have been married 22 years, and I can honestly say that my H is a great father and a lousy husband. I have told him that myslef. Why is he a lousy husband. Simple. He simply doesn't LISTEN to me, he doesn't hear me, he doesn't understand that the things I say are important to me to make me happy with him really ARE important. He ignores these things, even sometimes does the opposite just to annoy me. In other words he has NEGLECTED me. That letter sounds like her message to you that you have neglected her for many years. You may have all the excuses in the book, but that is what it sounds like to me. And I'm not trying to make you feel bad.

After years of my H neglecting my needs, dismissing them, rejecting that they are important to ME, I simply stopped asking. I stopped depending on him to fill them, but I started resenting the h&ll ou of him. And I withdrew. I never sought out another man. But I did withdraw. He sought out another woman.

In the end, statistics show (I can't remember where I read this ) that more women divorce because they feel NEGLECTED than for any other reason. This may sound like I'm stating the obvious, but really think about what I said.

Read and re-read that letter from your W. Some of it is fog babble yes. But always there is an underlying layer of truth to what most of us say. She is telling you something important. Admit that it may be truth that you need to hear.

As always, JMHO.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I agree. There is much that can be learned from reading between the lines. She is honestly saying the way she feels and how she looks at things. At this point she has a very hard time believing that there is any hope. Mark, you have to be the the upbeat, optimistic, hopeful one and lead by example.

As far as your therapist, I would recommend having him check out MB concepts. If he is not open to these ideas I would find a new therapist.

You should also read about how to find a good counselor/coach. You need to work with someone who is pro-marriage and can coach you as to how to restore your marriage. Read this:

How To Find a Good Marraiage Counselor

Rosie,

Thanks for your reply. I'll be the first to say you're right. There is/was problems in our marriage. I'm willing to work on them and was. In fact I think we were makinggreat progress. In fact it probably could be described as too much too soon. I did some soul searching and adressed many issues that bothered her.

A historical look in my defense (not that it really matters) The time frames mentioned by my wife coincided with statements like 'when I see you get off the train I still get butterflies'.

She's right about the US part.

Now back to the last 6 months. I improved and she may have had her doubts about how commited I was to maintain that. The problem was she always confided in a NEW male friend of hers. A NEW male freind she at least fantisied about.

All thats changed in the last two months is exposing their relationship to his wife. I presented only substanciated facts. This caused her to absolutely hate me. I know that minimizes what happened. It was no well thought out plan to end an affair. I just wanted to plant a seed but OM's wife was too easy and understanding to talk with. I found out he did this before. I now found out this guy has a bad reputation for this sort of thing.

Did I blow a good thing - yes. Things would be much better now. One way to look at things is I did hasten a process. I must remember her relationship bothered me to no end. I felt betrayed.

From this letter I also see my wife wants to get over her anger 'or whatever it is'. She is using her brain. I also see a pattern of coming close, but exeactly saying 'it's over forget it'. Or maybe its my own version of fog, but I'm hopeful.

Once again thanks for your views, they are correct. I'd really like to hear more of your views on things. Can women ever come back from this? It seems couseling is out of the question (at least fot now, but she refused before). This plan A stuff makes some sense. In short it seems the plan for now is let her stew a while longer. I have worry only about myself pretty much. I will be the first to admit I'm no angel. Is my turn around too little too late - I hope not.

If she initiates relationship talk this is a very good opportunity for you to LISTEN. Only listen, no matter what she says listen. Even repeat back what she says word-for-word to check and make sure that she knows that you are listening. If she says something that you don't understand, ask to explain. Do not, I repeat, do not challenge what she says! Just listen.

Women need someone who can listen without trying to fix the problem. If you can learn this skill she will begin to open up to you. It will completely melt her heart.

As your therapist says, you may have to hear things that are very painful and negative. Don't take them personally. Remain upbeat.

Marriages, in my opinion, are never DOA. They can always be restored if the partners can be motivated to work towards recovery.

Mark, I would strongly recommend that if you are going to Plan A, you need to seriously saturate yourself with the concepts on this site. This site gives you a plan so that you are not just floundering around. This gives you an advantage in that your wife has no plan and is very confused. Arm yourself with knowledge and she will begin to notice your new-found confidence.

<small>[ February 15, 2005, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: legato ]</small>

OK Plan A - uncertain here. I understand it high level. Be a good boy and meet as many needs as I can while trying to identify more of her needs. I am to avoid love busters (I'm sorry but responding 'then who are you in love with' to the ILYBNILWY statement seems to be border line LB). I have to listen to what she says and take the hurtful things with a grain of salt. I ahve to work on me. I have to be strong, not apear as the sad depressed wreck I currently am. Don't pressure her into counselling. Oh yeah NC - I think she at that stage now, but I haven't come right and say it. Or is that for recovery?

Then I wait for her to come forward and ask to work on US?

It sounds like you've got it to me. Good job!

You don't really have to wait for her to come forward. It's more like you have been working on things all along and now she gets onboard.

The commitment to NC ends Plan A. Then recovery begins. She will have to abandon all secrecy; all passwords, email access, access to cell phone records, etc. No more double life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> not apear as the sad depressed wreck I currently am. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Completely understandable, you've lost your two best friends. I was in the same boat. And I used to say the liquor was easy to give up but the withdrawl from my wife (she moved out) was total hell.