I somehow think NC has started just a few weeks ago. Thats when her mood took a down turn. I think she had some hope before. She tried to contact OM's wife for something and OM called back and told her his wife doesn't want her around. That night she told me it should of been her choice to stop talking to him and I forced my choice on her.

I haven't come and said a big requirement is NC.

I hear ya Mark... my wife has been acting down ever since I talked to OM... I do think that with his parents guidance and me talking to him about how wrong it was... that he is keeping his word... thus her down and out attitude...

It will pass...

Listen to her... they keep telling us we don't understand them... now is the time to let them vent... I know it sucks...


Keep your head up...

A recovery question:

Right now I'm still public enemy #1. She doesn't talk much at all to me. I'm sure if asked her how she was feeling I'd get something close to 'I hate you'. But can I again suggest marriage counselling? The last thing I want is dragging her in kicking and screaming. That would be totally unprodctive and I can see how she'd turn this around (we did counselling - it didn't work - I still hate you).


I don't want to rock her boat too much right now since we'll be going on a family trip next week. She'll join me and her sister + children later in the week due to work/school commitments (same as previous years).

Maybe this will be a good time to make some deposits in that love bank.

Mark -

NO RELATIOSHIP TALK!!!

Not yet. Even if she initiates it, try and avoid it. Tell her, "I don't want to talk about that now, honey. I just want to enjoy what we are doing."

There has got to be many weeks of no confrontation mixed with some fun times (Love Bank Deposits) before any R talks. And then you want her to bring it up if possible. Set a goal for yourself - maybe 30 days of NO R talks.

It's tough Mark, I know...

Gib

Mark,

Yes, could be an oppprtunity to have a little fun together. It's hard to have R talk when others are around. Put your game face on; you are a fun guy, with or without her!

If she initiates R talk it's ok to listen as long as you do so in a detached way. Her talking about her feelings or even telling you all of the reasons why you are the lowest piece of scum on earth can be productive; can clear the air, just don't take it personal and start LB'ing . If she can work through all of that resentment without you joining in other than to listen it may be productive.

I wouldn't push for counseling right now; she's already let you know that she's not there yet. Eventually, she may change her mind. She'll let you know if that happens.

I think the love bank is closed. But I continue chipping in with the kids as always and cleaning up after dinner and setting the table (when she lets me). I try to do things for her as the opprotunity arises, but she does blurt out I'll do it myself sometimes. I'll volunteer to run errends, etc. I'll even compliment her on a nice outfit (she does say thanks).

She shuns all effection and FORGET about sex. She doesn't talk to the point where my 10 year old daughter lost a tooth and the tooth fairy didn't come for 2 nights (she never told me about the tooth so how could I help remember).

So this too shall pass? I see this as a race between her anger and her getting the nerve to leave. A race I'm not entered in.

Resentment and anger don't pass easily it seems. It may be proportional to how long it's been building up. Just hang in there, keep doing the right things. Keep studying material here and others' stories.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MarkNY:
<strong> She shuns all effection and FORGET about sex. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Every time I see someone talk about the lack of affection or sex it makes me laugh! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It's such a natural outcome of a really difficult time in a relationship - who wants to have sex with someone they are angry and resentful toward? I haven't had sex in over 3 years. Haven't kissed a man in that length of time either. I don't even remember what it feels like to WANT to be close and affectionate with a man. It's sad really. And it say so much about where I am with my marriage.

Rosie,

Calm down - it was meant to be an understatement

I have some serious thought searching to do. I saw my IC yesterday and reached some conclusions. First the evidence I have definitely points to some sort of relationship between wife and OM. One that should not take place within a marriage. Call it an EA if you will.

Now accepting that I need to know where I go from here. My IC equates standing by to wait for her anger to pass (you folks call it fog) is like waiting for magic to happen. What he is trying to guide me to do is face the wife and determine if she wants this marriage to work. He’s putting my mental health first. He knows how this is affecting me mentally and now financially (just got a bad annual review at work first in 22 years). This is a burning issue for me, does she want to continue or not? I have this burning need for an answer. What he is advising makes logical sense. He doesn’t mean approach her with ultimatums, but rather nicely, non-judgmentally, and non-accusatorily ask her what she wants to do. I brought up the point about that pressuring her away. He’s saying asking a question as ‘simple’ as does she want to work things out is not pressuring. He says it’s an answer I need to know to move forward from where I’m at right now – limbo land. He wants me to look out for number one. Also he’s encouraging me to take some action and not be merely a spectator in my own life. His point is if I do nothing to assert myself I’ll just watch my marriage go down the drain.

On the other hand there is tons of advice here not to push the issue, to wait for her to come out of the ‘fog’. I can see the merits in both approaches. While the MB ideas are based on accepted psychological theories, they may not apply to every situation or individual. My IC is a trained, licensed, experienced, professional person who’s extremely familiar with my case. Not to insult anyone here, but you aren’t. To the credit of most people here you have lived through similar situations, so similar to mine it’s uncanny, and I do value your opinions. I’m confused to say the least.

My wife is also under a lot of other pressures at the moment. She tried a new job this fall that seemed ideally suited for her, the one draw back it required her to work nights indefinitely. She couldn’t adjust to the nights and the demands of the job were high (she was in charge of several hospital units). This lead to her resigning last week effective mid March. She is also pursuing a masters degree and at the last minute signed up for an extra course this semester (this was amidst the current crisis). She is crashing and burning in this course. She has never earned a grade below a B+ in her life. She is now trying to get a very important research paper done by next Tuesday. She learned this week that all her work so far this semester was for naught. To add yet another dimension to this her dropping the class will mean a loss of over $2000 (only a very small refund will be granted this late in the semester but $400 is $400). She’s in the ‘leave me alone’ mode big time right now, and I can understand that.

Next week we have a ski vacation. I’ll be taking my kids up on Monday, my wife will join us Wednesday morning (she has school Tuesday night). Her sister and kids will also be staying with us (rented a condo). This has become an annual event for us. I’m hoping this will be a welcome break and a source of mutual enjoyment (love bank deposit). I don’t expect a miracle to happen, just have some fun.

This week, while still showing her anger to me, she has lightened up a bit with the hostilities. I guess if I decide to use the IC’s approach it would be best to wait until mid march when some of the pressures are lifted off of her. On the negative side of this, her having so much idle time may make her go deeper into her depression. A quiet empty house gets to anyone after time. And she’ll start reflecting on her life again, and I fear she will do so in a negative manner.

Life sure ain’t easy.

Now I open the floor to all of you for your valued input.

Mark -

I'm not sure your IC and the advice here are all that different. The timing might be a little different, but the end result is to either work on the M together our end up divorced. You're IC is understandably concerned about your health and welfare. That's a very good thing!

According to MB principles, you should be doing a Plan A right now. Plan A does not mean being a doormat to your W. It's as much (or more IMHO) about making you a better person and HAPPIER <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ! It's also meant to give you the peace and serentity you will need in the future if your M fails. After working hard on yourself and Plan A, you will be able to look back and say 'I gave it my best'. No regrets, no demons that will haunt you as you move forward with your life.

You appear to be about the same age as me - mid forties? I can tell you this, for me knowing the effort I put into myself, my M, and my sons brings me peace. I can handle just about anything thrown my way now and come out smiling in the end. My M is doing better, but it's not perfect. Most of 'our' problems are still my fault and I procrastinate too much in adressing them. But I WILL deal with them...

Believe me, I understand the pain and stress during Plan A. On our 20th Anniversary I took my W on a sunset helicopter ride through the Grand Canyon. The next day she was having lunch with the OM. That one still gets to me 3 1/2 years later...

I'm sure others will post thier thoughts too. Let me know if I can help in any way... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings to you.

Gib

Gib,

What do you mean by the timing being different? This is my question with Plan A. It seems I just sit and wait – sort of. It’s hard to get out and get a life with the responsibilities of home and family. We are a busy family between our careers, education, and the demands of our kids. Our schedules have become so entwined to support the demands of our family. From what I get out of plan A is just go through life, get a thick skin, and wait for her to decide what to do. I understand building a support network and make myself a better person. I am reaching out to old friends for advice and catch up on their lives a bit.

My therapist didn’t say go home right now and ask her what she wants. But he’s right, it’s question that must be answered and can’t be ignored. This is not a “I’m mad at you for staining my new rug” situation. At some point this must be dealt with. Keeping conflict alive not necessarily a bad thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What do you mean by the timing being different? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Usually you should try and get 6 months of a decent plan A. That varies of course... It seems to me you might be about 1-2 months into your Plan A now.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It seems I just sit and wait – sort of. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What sort of things did the old Mark do? Sports? Work outs? Volunteering? You know - hobbies that gave you a chance to escape from your life for a short time. Something that put a smile on your face (besides drinking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). I understand the pressures of family. Heck, I live under those same pressures and constraints, but you can still make the time for you...

Also, how old are your kids? Are they old enough to take to a ball game? A play? The Zoo? Heck, even a planned Family outing to the movies complete with all the popcorn and junk they want! Invite your W, but don't expect her companionship. Get to doing things that put a smile on your face, include your kids when you can, and start being a happy Mark again. Then set a date for your Plan A to end and confront the issues in your M. IMHO, you should not initiate R talks nor participate in them until you are farther down the Plan A path...

Perhaps a phone session with SH would clarify it more?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> it’s a question that must be answered and can’t be ignored. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I completely agree with your IC. The question is timing. The methods here at MB have worked for many people. And if they did not work to save the M, that person can go on to another relationship without any guilt or baggage.

Mark - I can only pass on my experiences and what I've seen take place on these boards for 3 1/2 years. I am not a 'trained' counselor. Just a guy who has been in your shoes...

Gib

Yeah timing is the key question. When will the time be right? any hints?

Like I said other life pressures on her right now. Incident with OM's wife is more than just exposure. Lots of friends in common - she feels removed from nay of them too. She's embarrassed not so much my OM's wife knowing their stuff, but worried rumors will hit the school and church population. My lips are sealed, but 4 people at least know about this now. Well 5 if you count our pastor, but she has him convinced he's 'just a friend'. I honestly don't think she sees it.

Here's my take on her thoughts. Relationship starts very suddenly in Dec 2003 - still have evidence to support wifes attraction in late Apr 2004. Phone use peaks in summer 2004 (she worked in a school - so no office phone in the summer). I discover heavy cell usage and relationship - tell her I don't like it. Usage drops to near zero. Then slowly starts up again and more 'chance' meetings at kids school. She thinks she can back off realtionship to just friendship, but gets hooked back in. She now moves to higher secrets - phone card - to evade dection. His calls are incoming on her cell from 'private' number.

Gib,

Your point is well taken. There seems to be a lot of experience here and that says a lot. Sometimes IC's only have theoretical knowledge. I'm just so confused as to the timing. When do I finally say 'hey hun, want to work on our marriage?' I didn't mean to poke insults at anyone here, just honestly state some facts about why I am so confused. Right now I have a very bleak outlook on our future. I wouldn't even know where to start rebuilding.

Shes' back to nasty again, but she's tired and cranky. Yesterday she shared some issues with a girl scout trip. She just rambled on for about 15 minutes. She hasn't done that in months. So she can still look me in the face and talk.

Well I'm getting things together for our ski trip on Monday. She'll join us Wednesday, not looking for miracles, but a couple of days having fun together would be a welcome break. We'll see...

Your therapist is a professional and is working with you to do what's best for you! YOU! If it were I, I would take hisd advice.

Your marriage is obviously very important not only to you but to your children but those children will not be better off with a father who is ready to tank out on life because he can't make sense with a with a WW who has decided to approach her own life as if she lives on an island.

Your wife will come out of her fog in her own good time, not yours! While she is off in her fog "finding herself," you have other problems that need your attention. If it were I, I would go on with my life and let her do what ever it is that she wants with no input from you.

Live your life as you must, inspite of your WW. Learn to be happy with out her. If and when she decides to come back, it's then that you can worry about who she is and what's she become. Otherwise, just leave her behind.

Coach

Thanks Coach!

I'm going on a ski trip tomorrow with my kids, my wifes sister and her kids. My wife should be joining us Wed. I hope to have fun. I will have fun.

Hey MarkNY...

I hope you are having a great time on your trip... it is Friday and just thought... wonder how mark is doing... if you happen to sneak out online during your trip give us an update...

If not... I will hear from you when you get back...

Hopefully all is going OK...

DH,

Thanks for your concern. Our trip went OK. My wife was very tired when she finally got there early Wednesday morning. She'd been up for 3 days with work and her research paper, only getting 3 or 4 hours sleep a day. Wednesday afternoon she went to bed for over 15 hours. She was still pretty full of hate. These ski trips used to be a source of great family pleasure. I was pretty down too. We didn't get to ski together like I had hoped (logistics of children at different skiing abilities).

This morning we talked a little about us. I initiated it. I had to ask what are we doing. The bottom line is she has to get through her hate of me first. If she can. It looks like we're staying together for the time being. I expressed my views about a great future together and the fact that I don't know how to get there. She brought up the staying together for the kids as not a good thing for her own health. I have to agree, but didn't voice that view. I spoke of making each other happy again. She's very pessimistic, but did say she doesn’t think she through away 17 years of her life. I didn't bring up any marriage counseling this time because of her still overwhelming schedule. She quit her full time job effective 3/11. Maybe in a few weeks I’ll introduce the idea. At least I started some dialog. We were kind and civil to each other.

I did pick up on one of needs – she wants more recreational companionship. It’s almost like she wanted to get in with a clique. It seems to me that’s what she was using the OM for in her EA. He is quite a popular guy and she wanted to make more friends. She complained that our phone isn’t ringing off the wall with invites to go out with other couples. Sounds almost high schoolish (wanting to get in with the popular group). I guess that’s part of her midlife crisis thing.

I also stressed that I’m approachable and open anytime she wants to talk. Well things are bad and I wonder if I’m kidding myself here that things will turn around. I guess its back to taking care of me again and helping out where I can. I don’t know how to go about filling her need for recreational companionship. She will not go out with me alone right now (we’ll fall into stone silence). I brought up how it made me feel with her clandestine phone calls, etc. She said she can understand but doesn’t feel any remorse and that just adds prove to her that she doesn’t love me.

So where do I go from here? Anyone?

I hope the fog starts to lift soon. I'm growing impatient with it. It's been over 2 months since I exposed her thing to OM's wife. I still regret that, but I can't change it. Life totally sucks right now, but I'm trying.

I do have a question. When she says those mean and nasty things should I tell her how I feel about them. Something like 'it hurts when you say or marriage was a mistake'.