Hey Mark! Welcome back!

I'm sorry your trip was not as fun as you had hoped. I hope the kids had a good time though...

I'll giver you my $.02 on your questions:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So where do I go from here? Anyone </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No where - Plan A should be where you are and stay for awhile.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When she says those mean and nasty things should I tell her how I feel about them. Something like 'it hurts when you say or marriage was a mistake'.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know this can be VERY tough, but I think you should avoid responding to her verbal attacks. She is still 'foggy' and her attacks show it.


If you still have questions about Plan A, there are alot of older threads that do a good job explaining what it's all about.

On a positive note, it sounds like she is going to stay for a while and give you a chance to work on the M. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Gib

Thats the thing - working on the marriage seems to imply doing something. Plan A seems like do nothing, try to have some fun, and wait for her anger to fade. Of course try to do things that make her 'happy' (or should I say not unhappy). I keep finding myself smacking my head into the wall trying to think of the perfect thing to say or do that will turn her around.

Things seem a bit better - less angry outbursts from her. I have to think of some fairly objective rating system to mark progress. After all around Christmas she wouldn't even grunt at me.

Serious question:

Should I try to discuss her EA? Things like when exactly did it start? When did you meet again? Did it get physical? These are things that are bothering me.

Might it be good to get everything out in the open, or will I just cause too much anger and pain?

From her 'secret' writing, which I posted earlier, she's expecting something of the sort, but is not looking forward to it.

Mark,

If I were you I would read more about Marriage Builder concepts, specifically Plan A and Plan B and decide whether you want to use these tools to restore your marriage.

The answers to your questions depend upon whether you are committed to Plan A or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Should I try to discuss her EA? Things like when exactly did it start? When did you meet again? Did it get physical? These are things that are bothering me.

Might it be good to get everything out in the open, or will I just cause too much anger and pain?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">During Plan A you bite your tongue and don't ask all of these questions. Don't initiate talk about the affair or the relationship. Once the affair is completely over and she has committed to no contact, then is the time that Radical Honesty comes into play and you get answers to all of your questions. It is natural that you want to know these things and for your marriage to heal, everything must come out with no holding back but that is for later.

The exception to this is, if you can find out what needs were being met by other person that you were not meeting, that is useful information because that tells you what changes you need to make or what skills you need to earn. If she initiates discussion it's alright to ask non-confrontational questions to try and understand this aspect of the affair.

Plan A is much more than "being a good boy" and waiting for her anger to subside. If you decide that Plan A provides the best chance for building an affair-proof marriage, also know that it is very hard to do. It is emotionally draining. That is why I recommend studying concepts on this site and deciding whether you believe that this is your best option or not before even starting down that road. I don't believe that half-measures or mixed strategies is a good way to go.

Interesting about the "getting together with other couples" thing. My wife used to complain about that also; "We don't have any friends!" I don't why, but it doesn't seem to be an issue any more. We mostly seem to enjoy each other's company, perhaps because we're older now and not into the party scene. We do have a few couples that we go out to dinner with now and then and one couple that we like to travel with.

Below I have provided what I believe is a very good link. If you read john39's post on "October 27, 2003 08:27 PM" and all of the links that he provides, I think you will have a better idea of what Marriage Builders is about:

john39's Reference

Also, notice here that the other posters seem to be giving advice that "feels" right, meet disrespect with disrespect in kind, "boot her [censored] to the curb", etc. john39 is giving correct MB advice.
Hope this helps you. Keep posting.

MarkNY,

I caught up on the last three pages of your thread.

I don't think that your IC is that out-of-sync with MB principles, and I do see why he says you need to know if she wants to work on the M. Your IC wants to know if he should be helping you build your M or build yourself independent from the M.

However.

Your W is very resentful and "not herself" right now and if you ask her "Do you want to work on the M?" or "Do you want to be M in 3, 5, 10 years?" her answer may not *at all* be the same as six months from now. She might very well say she's miserable (and she feels that she is) but this is most likely not a permanent situation. Her feelings may change (probably will, if you do a good Plan A).

Right now she feels like she's been ignored and unheard. Her love bank is in the red. When she lashes out, I wouldn't say "it hurts me when you..." because in her eyes that is MORE of you not hearing her. She voices her pain (even in anger and hateful words) and you don't even acknowledge HER feelings, you jump immediately to YOUR feelings. Nix that.

Instead, acknowledge her feelings. Tell her "Wow, I had no idea..." or "Gee, you sound really hurt" or "I can see how you would feel that way." When she's not being hateful, THANK HER for sharing her feelings with you, even though it hurts to hear what she says. Make it safe for her to open up to you. Let her know you hear her.

You say RC is one of her top ENs, and that things are awkward with just the two of you -- too much tension. Maybe you can get her to go to a neighborhood or church "do", or to volunteer for something at the kids' school (chaperone a dance, help with a fund raiser). That way you'll be mingling with other folks, you'll be doing something kind of together, but you won't have the awkward silent moments.

Whenever you DO do something with her, tell her you had a good time. Be specific. Don't just say "That was fun" but say "It was nice getting to know our neighbors better; I enjoy a sense of belonging" or similar.

Good post, turtle.

Hey a bit of good news - Last night as she left for work I got a kiss on the lips! Maybe it was slip on her part.

I went out to an AA meeting more a while and cleared the snow off her car before she had to leave for work last night. Got a thank you for clearing the car and a quick kiss on lips. Right now I feel good.

I appreaciate the ideas of helping out at the kids school, unfortunately thats how this whole mess started. OM volunteers a lot. Seems to participate in woman dominated activities (PTA, fund raisers (only male who helps in kitchen), etc). There in lies the rub with NC. His kids are in my kid's class to boot. I understand the idea though, now just to think of something.

Waiting for the fog to lift. I read that 'the fog' is actually caused by severe depression. Very strange though.

Where did you read that?

Was in the library yesterday reading about these sort of things. I don't remember the book, but it explained the blaming everyone else, taking no responsibilty on depression, similar to that of losing a loved one (death) or the total loss of a house (and a lifetime of keepsakes) to fire. I'd be depressed. Now if that happened to me how would I behave to the murderer or arsonist? I killed my wife's relationship and she's therefore pissed at me. If the OM's wife discovered this on her own and put an end to it she would be as pissed at me - I assume.

My mother started having bouts with drpression as her Alzhiemers started kicking in (early stage) and she would have angry outbursts like you wouldn't believe - throwing things, saying nasty things, etc. Depression can do that to you. She was the sweetest woman in the world before that.

I think that is not the same fog that we're talking about here although I must say that I can relate. My wife lost both of her parents two years ago and she had the kind of fog that you speak of. She was very absent minded and depressed.

The fog that we talk about here can be in full force and the person actually seems very happy, especially when they think that they have found their soulmate. They're on top of the world and life would be great except that they have this one annoying thing that they can't seem to get rid of, a spouse.

Right now the OM's wife is keeping him on a short leash. I don't think there is much, if any, contact. She's in a "it's over" mood when it comes to our marriage. She says she's trapped, etc. Things seem to be improving slightly - so slightly.

The 'fog' she's in now causes her to hate me (she's said that). To talk to her is somewhat futile. She feels to remorse for what she's put me through (oh and there was nothing wrong with her relationship either). She says that must mean she no love for me at all. She outright refuses counselling (but has IC for about a year now).

Some history - Last winter she stopped saying I love you. This all came to a head last summer when I finally asked whats wrong with us. Shortly after I discovered lots of phone calls and some letters. Call it discovery. I told her I didn't like her contact with her new friend and she seemed to understand, but barginned to maintain some contact. Things started improving for a few months then she said 'I love you' to me last september. She quickly recanted that and shortly after the famous "I love you but not in love with you" followed. During Sep the kids were back in school and since he was heavily involved in the school contact picked up again. My wife started working full time and was free to call him anytime from work. Judging that she started using a phone card I can safely assume she must have had contact from work phones as well. Cell phone use started to peak again.

Just before Christmas I ran into OM's wife and decided to plant some seeds, just say that we were having marriage problems and her husband had been 'helping' my wife via phone. She asked me if I was comfortable with that and I said 'no' and the flood gates opened. She confronted her husband (OM) and he promptly alert my wife and the sh*t hit the fan. Late Jan my wife tried contacting OM's wife for something, then she found out where she really stood and contact with OM is forbidden. Big upturn in nastiness followed.

So here I sit in limbo.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MarkNY:
<strong> . . . quickly recanted that and shortly after the famous "I love you but not in love with you" followed. So here I sit in limbo. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">May 2004 -- H (in heavy fog) says "Our marriage has been dead for at least 10 years." Wants divorce, but unwilling to get off the fence, stop the cake eating, and file.


July 2004 -- H (still in heavy fog) says "We are not meant for each other. We have absolutely nothing in common." And so feels our 22 M has no future. Still will not file.


August 2004 -- H (fog, fog, fog) says "I had the A because you were not 'emotionally supportive' of me." I had no idea what he is talking about. Conversation is top EN for him. We talk A LOT. Not as much as he talks and emails the OW however. And he doesn't LIVE with her, she is most definitely a fantasy for him and he is for her too. Still madly in love. Doesn't want me or to think about the future and what he is doing to his family (4 kids).

I file for D. He goes no contact.

Fast forward Jan 2005 -- H (fog starting to drift away) says "Well, not all of the past 10 years have been bad." Obviously starting to rethink our past in a better light than during the A.

Feb 2005 -- H says "We actually have had a pretty good 22 years, considering all the bad stuff that has happened to us." (more fog lifting)

Mar 2005 (just this morning) -- H says "You actually have been very emotionally supportive of me over these past 3 years (he lost his job and had a really tough time of it)." Hm. . . the fog is definitely burning off now.

It's so hard to take what some of these WSs say to us without blasting back. You take it to heart and it really, really hurts. Especially if you think it isn't true AT ALL. With my H, some of the things he said while he was 'in love' with the OW hurt me to the core. I have a difficult time thinking about these things and trying to temper them by telling myself he was in the fog. The thing is - you have a history of truthfulness (usually) with your S - beleiving them and what they say. It's hard to understand that they could be 'under the influence' of some emotional grip that has them thinking and saying such hurtful, awful things.

For my H also he was severely depressed, though not clinically -- he could function pretty normally throughout the day though he did sleep a lot. He was and still is on meds (they don't seem to work but I don't know what he'd be like if he WASN'T on them) and he's been seeing a counselor for about 2 years, weekly.

Try to hang in there, be the best person you can be, be someone YOU would want to go out with or be with <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> !!

I don't know what to tell you on how long to wait. My H went NC in Sept of 2004 and is just now showing signs of being the man I used to know. He says the A was the stupidest thing he's ever done. He doesn't know how it happened it just did. He realizes now -- and actually did way back then -- that she was not someone he wanted to form a future with. It was a mistake, he says.

Hang in there MarkNY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Rosie,

Thanks for your post. I goves me some hope, for I feel hopeless and helpless right now. I guess it may take months. I just have this feeling I should be doing something more than meeting needs and avoiding LB's. I try to meet needs, but only a few that she'll let me (take care of the kids, clean up after meals, run errends, etc). As for her she meets virtually few, but I'm grateful for them (feeds me,laundry). It's like we're nothing but roommates that don't talk to each other.

These past 2 months have been extremely difficult for me. I don't know when the fog will lift, but I guess it's nothing but baby steps back to normalcy.

My issue with 'leaving her be' is that she'll use her thought and reflection time (space) to make up her mind to leave. In a way I also take some pity on her. It seems fairly obvious she misses OM even though only EA suspected. She doesn't have anyone to talk to openly and honestly about her thoughts. Could I be the one? I'd like to try, but then again maybe I wouldn't be able to bare what she has to say.

This 'on the fence' stuff gives me nothing but high anxiety. I can't imagine living like this for another 6 months or so. I hope things gradually improve. A nice hug from her would mean the world to me. Oh the pain...

legato,

from fog thread

The exposure has her pissed in the sense that she can no longer talk/be with OM. I suspect he is honoring his wife's demands. The break off the freindship has her mad. I don't know what to make of the 'stay mad at Mark to control him from further exposure'. I can't see that as a concious effort on her part.

She also says she feels violated - I assume she means me going through all her stuff. Like I've said it wouldn't sit right with me if she went through all my stuff, but it wouldn't anger me so.

Embarrassment is also big. She wonders who knows. She gets uneasy when I talk with any of her friends. She also says she's nervous what I tell the children (nothing). I have slipped things in the past with the children, like pumping them for info on wifes contact with OM. My kids are the ones I have the most human contact with. I wish I could talk with them but relaize that wouldn't be a good thing (oldest is 12).

My IC says I should keep our marriage problems between us. That makes sense in that if she knows I'll blab anything she tells me all over the place she won't tell me anything. She got extremely upset when I sought out our pastor for advice and solace. She also was upset that I went to a religous reflection thing one night. I was supposed to go to an AA meeting, but changed my mind at the last minute. She must of found out from her friends I was there. Her comment was a sarcastic 'when did you become spiritual'. SHe thinks anything I do or say has a hidden agenda.

I'm not 100% sure of the frequency of their contact but it was fairly near daily (guess 4x /week easy). Not that they'd pour their hearts out, but just chat day to day stuff. She admitedly looked to him for relationship advice.

I think one of her things was she felt lonely and wants a busy social life. She wanted to break into a new clique it seems. Him and his friends. Not that I was left at home, but she seemed to care more about social activities that involved him than anything else.

Hi Mark, I guess patience is the name of the game. I have been in plan B with no contact for 2 months now. Sad.
Maybe this will cheer you up
http://www.stopabductions.com

I believe it is good that you exposed the truth. In your first post you mentioned going to Church. If you are a Christian I would recommend the power of a praying Husband. I will begin praying that God will convict her heart. Everything you have been and are going through is so painful and devastating. You are obviously a forgiving person to continue to try and make it work even though she has shown no remorse or guilt and is in fact treating you poorly follwing her horendous behavior. God will reward you twice fold for handling the situation in a Godly manner. You are married and have children together I pray that your marriage does a 100% turn around. God will use what the devil intended ofr evil and turn it to the good. Stay Strong.
Stormy

Well mark sorry I didn't get back you you after you came back and posted...

In some ways it seems like we are twins separated at birth... your wife and my wife are pretty much playing out the same act in this play of life...

The difference and my hardest thing to swallow {and I cannot get anyone to reply or get me info on} is... my wife says she heard from God a week or two before we got married that she was not supposed to marry me... and that she is living a life of you reap what you sow... so she is living a life of torment and consequences...

How can I argue that? Other than to say God doesn't work like that...

You can call it fog talk... but it might be true... I kinda feel a shock when she says it... like something kinda rings true...

I can look back and see that some of the way that I was critical of her was because I was feeling how can she be doing things like this and really love me... and I lost hope that I would have my needs met by her... was I in denial?

What if the whole 12 years of marriage was living a life of just getting by because she rolled with the punches and thought that was her lot in life and never loved me but thought that she was obligated to stay... especially after we had Kids... and that further trapped her...

What am I to do... force her to love me... what if she does like she says she might do... just stay in it for the kids... and not give herself to me... and die inside...

Am I obligated to take her as a wife when she is not choosing to be my wife fully...

I do not want to force a person to be something they are not and make them force feelings for me...

I believe that God can change us and make us grow to love... but she has no intention of that if she stays... she will just be a shell of a wife... if she even decides to stay...

She is really into us separating for her to see what she wants to do for the rest of her life...

I feel I am the only one around here that might think that what she says has some truth...

I cannot find one book that talks about trying to make a relationship work if there was never true love on one parties part in the first place... they all talk or repairing love... restoring love... etc... what if there was never any love or any real feelings for me...

What would a christian counselor like H say?


Sorry to steal you post but people have stopped replying to me... and I had to vent...

Thanks for listening

Oh My Gosh!!!!!! My HUsband has said the exact same thing. And I will respond to that ,from talking to many preachers, pastors, adn elders, I now understand that God's Grace is sufficient. Once you marry that person it then becomes God's Plan. You turn to and rely on God. You still follow all of God's commandments. If you will turn it over to God and start being obident to him then you can have an awesome Godly marriage, but when you choose to still be disobedient to God (cheat, lie, not treat your spouse in a Godly manner) then you put a curse on the marriage that God so badly desires to bless. God can take what the devil intended for evil and turn it into good, but you must be obedient and follow the Lord's ways.

Also, one more thing if God told her not to marry you and she now claims she did not even love you at that time then why does she say she married you? If God tells you not to marry someone and you do not even love that person I do not understand what motivation, why you would want to, marry that person. It does not make sense. I have a Christian friend who was deeply in love with a nice guy who was not a believer, She now admits that God told her not to marry him. She says she did not listen to God because she was in love and she was selfish. She wanted to marry the man she loved regardless. It was more important to her than listening to and obeying God. From not listening to God they have had many hard times and struggles, but she ended up giving it all to God. Now they are working things out together because God's Grace is sufficient.

Stormy... thanks for the encouragement... she admits her motives were wrong... that she was rebelling against her parents... and liked me ... but didn't know what true love was... and couldn't force herself to love me... and now she thinks she is being punished... for not obeying God...

She says her life is doomed... it will be a sucky road either way... to have to conform to a marriage she doesn't want... and give up herself... and die on the inside... or to divorce and try to live a single parent life...

SHE IS TRAPPED IN A CORNER!!!

Both options make her feel trapped in this life that she doesn't want anymore...

And she hates me for pressuring her... to talk out things and go to counseling...

She says it would be easier for everyone if she were to check out... S word... I cannot even say it... that way I could move on in life with the kids and she wouldn't have to struggle for the rest of her life... and she started crying... and I said... I don't think that that is going to help our kids... and she said whatever and said it is an option... not that she is doing it... but I cannot take away her options and control her...

So I am really in a bind here... I know God would bless us for staying together... but that is not why she would stay... she would only stay for the kids and give nothing to me...

She sees no hope...

I am not sure where to go from here... do I give her space as in a separation... or do I make her try to love me...