sorry... not make her love me... ask her to try to love me with God's help... and grace... wow... can't believe I typed it like that... that is not what i meant

"She says her life is doomed... it will be a sucky road either way... to have to conform to a marriage she doesn't want... and give up herself... and die on the inside... or to divorce and try to live a single parent life.."

At this point she is choosing to be very, very selfish. There is another option Ii she would give it God and start following his ways it would be possible for her to fall deeply in love with you. God's Grace is always sufficient. Before you take any advice (especially from me, my marriage is in horrible shape) pray about it and ask God for wisdom. I personally would try James Dobson's advice from his book about Tough Love. For example telling her something like I love you and I wish are marriage could work. But, since you are miserable and unhappy with me I want you to be free, let's seperate. If later on you change your mind and are willing to agree to my terms then at that time we can try to make it work. For example your terms could be : individual counseling, marriage counseling, attending a married couple Bible study together, and treating me with the dignity and respect that I deserve. If when you have your freedom you decide you want to be single I will sadly accept it. At some point if you do not choose to try and make our marriage work I will sadly move on. I do warn you that many people think the grass is greener on the other side only to find out they were wrong and our left with regrets and sadness. It sad when people wait to realize what they had until it was gone.

But, that is just my advice. It has not worked forme, but from what I have seen it works for the huge majority of people who try it and stick with it.

I must apologize to mark once again... but I need to reply to stormy...

I totally agree... It is kind of a plan b mixed with a CS controlled separation... give her space out of love and let her make her decision...

My mother just bought me Love Must be Tough... I will start reading it tonight... she also bought me a book to give my wife... but I am not sure if I should give it to her ... I do not want to pressure her with all these how to save a marriage ... and how to revive love... they seem to not apply... if she never truly loved me... but the book is The Walk Out Woman... by Steve Stephens and Alice Gray... I do not recognize the book and I don't think that others have talked about it around here...

Any thoughts?

I am getting ready to go to a meeting.
Feel free to e-mail me at ksimon@bryanisd.org

Is she a Christian , does she have a personal relationship with God, does she believe in the power of God?

Stormy... and MarkNY... I have created a new thread on the main level...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=37&t=037273

I am off to lunch... so get back to me later stormy... and MarkNY thanks for the use of your thread:-)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MarkNY:
<strong> The break off the freindship has her mad...
She also says she feels violated - I assume she means me going through all her stuff. Embarrassment is also big. She wonders who knows. She gets uneasy when I talk with any of her friends. She also says she's nervous what I tell the children (nothing). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting . . . my H was actually mad at the OW! It took a while, maybe 3 - 4 months, but he felt very angry at her for sort of 'leading him on' though he was doing just as much leading! Not really clear on why, but he has said as much to me about being angry at her.

It was very much an EA with him. It lasted over 2 years, much of it talking and sharing intimate details of their lives, trouble with their marriages, views on life etc. He swears there was no intimacy but I don't believe him. Even if there wasn't, it wasn't because he didn't want it. I have copies of a lot of the emails that went back and forth between them. It was very intimate and extremely hurtful to me. Sometimes I wish I didn't know as much as I do.

The weekend’s coming up, what I used to long for now gives me mixed feelings. I have some things I have to do with the kids, but no real ‘family’ plans. Things are getting a little better at home. My wife has been more civil. I also limit the time we have to interact with each other. It’s been a busy week. Last night I had to get the monthly bills out and we were able to sit at the same table and make a little small talk. I can still sense some of the hostility from her, but I’m getting better with accepting that. We are still miles from being a ‘loving’ couple.

Saw my IC yesterday and I’m putting more things in perspective. I’m able to draw parallels between what’s advised here and what he’s saying. I spoke of her snide remarks and other things she says. He tells me to not get defensive about it since that will just validate her feelings as real. I spoke of responding to threats to leave by saying things like “that’s your right”, or “I understand that”. That usually defuses her and his incite is that I’m offering closure to her, and she doesn’t want that.

I’m starting to see some of her biggest needs too. She feels she has no friends. She cites a school social function coming up to justify that. No one has asked her to sit at their table. She has found a place, but it doesn’t seem she’s very happy with some of the other ladies. I guess that’s not the ‘popular’ group (sounds like high school, but that’s how she’s thinking). She’s hurt that she isn’t though of in anybody’s plans. I guess OM made sure she was included.

Her other big thing lately is independence. I never looked at her as dependant on anybody. In fact many are dependant on her. Her ailing mother, our children, and me to name some important characters. My IC draw a connection between OM and this. He was her friend, exclusive of any family connections. I come along and squash it. That makes me the villain. My IC also reminds me that their relationship was not at all appropriate for married people. I was right to remove him from our lives, but my method (disclosure to OMW) was questionable at best. I didn’t put my foot down first with my wife. I let this go on even though it was annoying the hell out of me. I was afraid to anger my wife by saying OM has to get out of our lives period. I didn’t give her the chance to do something about it. She knew I was highly uncomfortable with him, but I never let my true feelings be clearly known.

The other part of my wife’s psychosis is her overwhelming schedule and the demands she places upon herself. This summer she took on this full time night job in hopes of furthering her career (I have to agree). She also mentioned ‘absence makes the heart grow fonder’ in regards to the state of our relationship going into this (her EA was in full effect at the time also). She never adjusted to the night schedule and the job’s demands were higher than she expected. In the meantime she is pursuing a masters degree with earnest. They don’t just give away masters degrees for merely showing up for class. There are numerous lengthy research papers due in rapid succession. The she is a Girl Scout leader, not just any leader, but the one that takes charge of several troops. Then there’s class mom and lunchroom duty. Then there is her family responsibilities of raising 3 children. I think we all know how tiring that alone is.

I don’t know where my marriage is heading, I’m hopeful, but I have to be aware things may not work out at all. I have to start thinking about a ‘line in the sand’. In other words at some point I have to scrutinize where we are at in our relationship and make a decision whether on not to continue. Even though the actual EA seems to be over in the sense they don’t speak to each other, there is much fall out from my disclosure. The thing I failed to think about was you have to be ready for your relationship to end when you do disclosure. In all honesty I just set out to plant a seed (my wife and your husband talk a lot to each other on their cell phones), but OMW was very receptive and I spilled my guts.

What’s done is done. My wife feels no remorse for what she did to bring me to such a point (disclosing to OMW). She accepts no blame or responsibility. I also feel she doesn’t accept the fact OM must remain out of her life. While I’m not looking for an apology, her mindset has to change before our relationship can move forward. Another life changing event is on the horizon. Her night job will end next week. That has given us some ‘space’. After next week she will be home most every day. I used to like spending the evening home with her, now I’m afraid to. On the other hand the lifting of a large burden (her job) should reduce her stress level. There are so many variables in our lives right now. . My question now is how long can I wait for things to get somewhat back to normal?

Mark -

I think your attitiude is right on target. You can not tell the future. You can not control your W's actions. Keep working on you and being the best Father you can be!

Gib

Well another Sunday, maybe the worst day of the week. Church means seeing OM and OMW, an uneasy time for both me and my wife. It serves as a reminder of what's happened. To think we used to go to breakfast with these people. OM does belong in church, the sleeze ball. The preditor still sniffs around the moms at school. Some know his deal (not from me) and I'd like to know more, but going to the gossip source and asking about it will just focus attention on me (why is Mark so interested in this gossip - hmmmm).

I have to say things are getting a wee bit better. We talk more - general life issues. I call it a start (we have to start somewhere - right?).

Yesterday my daughter recieved a soccer award and my wife wanted to come along and do this as a family. She rarely gave a crap about the kids sports achievments. My oldest daughter holds some resentment towrads her for this. Yesterday she wanted to know why mommy never came to any of her things. Oops off on a tangent. We sat through the awards ceremony, but had a little flare up about my picture taking and I got defensive (should of said yeah you do take good pictures - instead I said 'yeah another thing I'm no good at'). I'm learning. We went out to dinner (we still do that) with the kids and conversation was better than it had been.

Even with some very modest improvement I feel us drifting further apart. I know I should have patience, and I'm trying. I guess what's a few months to a year considoreing we have almost 17 years of marriage 3 children and all the trimmings (house, cars, etc). I just don't want her fence sitting and then jumping ship when the times right for her.

Her unacknowledged EA is over, or so it seems. I don't think she's accepted that. Still bitterness but not as bad as a few weeks ago. This all seems like some kind of game and as if just by magic love will come back.

<small>[ March 06, 2005, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: MarkNY ]</small>

I have to admit things are a little bit better. Less hatred spewing from her mouth last week or so. Conversation still doesn't come easy.
Last night she sat in the den with me watch Tv for a bout 1/2 hour. Nothing much said to each other. She seemd to get a little mad about having to pick the kids up at chior last night. I was at an AA meeting, offered to leave early and gor mumbles from her. When I asked later if she could pick up the kids (I dropped them off) she said OK. When I come home she starts, in a *****y mumble, something about the kids should of just stayed home. I ignored that and went to watch TV. She didn't get her little nap before work last night.
Lesson learned: I shouldn't walk away from the mumbles and she should speak up and speak her mind.
Well anyway her night job is almost over. After Friday she's done. Now we can spend all sorts of quality time together (sarcasm). Maybe it will be a good thing and get us talking a bit.

Heres some advice I'm getting a lot of. I describes how I feel at the moment too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SHE has to get over HER hate of YOU???????? Exactly where does she get off? She cheated on you and now she has to get over her hate of you? OMG, it would be laughable if it weren't so damn twisted.

First of all, she needs to get it through her head that she has NO, and I repeat NO - as in absolutely zero, zilch, nada - reason to hate you. She doesn't have the right and she isn't afforded that luxury. SHE is the "bad" guy here. SHE is the one who screwed up. SHE is the one who betrayed you, broke her wedding vows, etc etc.

IF she has any hope of getting back into your good graces, and that's a big if because it doesn't sound as if that is what she's after ( It sounds more like she's into controlling you and manipulating you, but let's deal with the hypothetical here.) then she has to be willing to give up all expectation of privacy, gravel at your feet regularly, and do whatever it is that you deem is necessary in order to prove to you that she is trustworthy and just plain worthy of your love and affection. PERIOD.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh. But she doesn't get to hate you. You violated her privacy? Oh, no >insert sarcasm<. Guess what? If she hadn't violated the marriage, you wouldn't have had to "spy" on her. Right? If she hadn't been doing something to arouse your suspicions, then you wouldn't have checked into things more thoroughly. Sure thing were going along great before - it's because she was getting everything she wanted out of life. She was having her cake and eating it too. How dare you mess that up for her?? >insert LOTS of sarcasm<. I mean, really, what were you thinking? That she should be, oh I don't know, HONEST and LOYAL??

Quite carrying this. Don't accept that she hates you. It's not right. Not even remotely. She isn't allowed. She isn't afforded the luxury of having any ill feelings towards you whatsoever. She hasn't earned that right. She screwed up. She has to own that and take responsibility for it. So far it sounds like the only thing she excels at is manipulation and the art of self gratification.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would that be a love buster? Seriously I don't get why I am the villian.

I think I pushed too much this weekend.

I started having personal talks with my wife about things this weekend. After last week when I pushed for counseling we had another screw up - our kids are being effected to the point the school has become involved due to D12's suicide thoughts.

Well that opened up way too much I think. I started talking about my parents relationship, she had made a statement about it the other morning.

She rented a movie over the weeknd 'Gilbert Grape' about a guy taking care of his obese mother and taking charge of the family. The story of my wifes life. SHe sees me as her excape from her family and thinks that was the real reason she married me, not love.

Any how I told her that was a very sad statement about us. Then it shifted quickly to Christmas (when I told OWM about EA). SHe stopped it saying she didn't want to talk about it - I backed off.

Last night I had a dream about fighting with OM (physically). I woke up startled and scred the wife awake too. Talked about dream, then about wanted to know more. She's insulted thinking I'm implying something physical. While I wonder if did get there, I assume it to be more an EA.

Well this morning she calls me at work while looking for credit card invoices, something about it's for me benefit. I think she's on a rampage to discredit the affair to me.

I don't know what to expect at home today. I think I may have pushed too far. She's definiitely in a worse mood today.

Now how to back out of this one. My plan is to remain silent and wait for her to bring up something. I was home for lunch today and she bagged up evrythung intimate she had. I guess she going to chuck it out. I don't know what statement she's trying to make or if they'll be some prop in her angry presentation.

WHat now?

I'm not sure that I understand what is happening here. It sounded like you were getting some advice, bad advice, IMHO, to try and nail her down and straighten her out as to who is actually the wronged party here. So is that what happened this weekend?

double post

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: legato ]</small>

I've gotten some bad advice for sure, but didn't really act on it. That would be telling her except the blame for what you did. Somehow in the back of my head I feel if I could get her to talk completely about her relationship with OM it might trigger something in her - guilt, remorse etc. Yes I feel she should be kissing not kicking my a**. That's how I really feel. She denies there was anything wrong with her relationship with OM. She starts to get very defensive about things if I get close to talking about it.

Some advice I've gotten, that seems right, is not taking the abuse anymore. The verbal harassment has got to stop. She is dishing out extreme emotional abuse at times. I am not going to sit by and take it - sorry. I've been way to passive way too long. That doesn't mean the next time she she says something spiteful, or hateful, that I will yell at her her to stop it. I have to avoid being defensive too. Arguing the way I saw things is useless. I'll instead say things like 'when you talk to me that way it angers me', or 'hurts me', etc. She has virtually no respect for me, I have to earn respect and don't see how I can do that by staying quiet, taking this all in, and saying nothing other than 'I feel your pain'.

Now if she talks calmly about things, and those things are hurtful, but honest and constructive, that’s another story.

One does not have to take repeated bouts of emotional abuse. Sorry but it wears on me. I can't picture anyone on this planet standing still for what she dishes out.

Here's one example of what I plan on doing to be more assertive: The other day we were talking and she got carried away and said she hates it when I set the table. She doesn't like the fact I'm helpful now. But when she really lost she said she hates the way I pace around looking for things to do. Then she started to rapidly pace around me and starting to become irate, that’s when I called the conversation quits. Now I still want to help, I will set the table. I will tell her that along with I won't pace around. My pacing is mostly due to waiting for her to get out of the way of cabinet or draw I need access to. Instead of saying 'excuse me - need to get the silverware' I wait (and pace) until she moves out of the way on her own. I will say 'excuse me one second while I get the silverware'.

In reflection I am afraid of her. The only way to get over fear is confront it. I can’t see where she’ll gain more hate because I ask for a simple courtesy.

OK, now we're talking specifics and I think I can help here. I completely understand the verbal abuse. There is no excuse for it but here is something that may help a bit.

If you read here about states of a relationship, there are 3 states: intimacy, conflict, and withdrawal. If she is talking to you, even though it is abusive, that sounds like you are now in conflict state, which is actually better than being in withdrawal state where she doesn't talk to you at all; doesn't even acknowledge your presense in the room.

So, here is what I recommend. There is absolutely no reason for you to allow verbal abuse unless you are gaining useful information from it. If she tells you something that you do that annoys her, like pacing or whatever, that is useful information. You can use this information and stop doing those things that she finds annoying. It would be nice if she could tell you about these annoying habits in a nicer way but for now I wouldn't expect it. Just thank her for telling you and tell her that you will try to stop doing that.

On the other hand, there is only so much of this that you can take, I agree. So when you get fed up and feel as if you are going to boil over try this:

Look her in the eye. Tell her "Yes, I have made mistakes in the past. I am working very hard to correct those mistakes. I love you very much but that does not mean that I will stay here and allow you to continue to talk to me disrespectfully."

Then be quiet. Now observe what she does next. If she calms down then continue the conversation. If she continues with the abuse, leave. go for a walk or a run, go to the gym, if you belong, and take it out on the equipment. Do something physical to channel your anger.

If she settles down but then works herself back up to the abuse then repeat what you told her again and take the same action.

Try this and let me know how it works.

One other thing - when people are angry many times they are regressing to childlike
behaviour - they are having a childish tantrum and if it scares people and they get their way, then they will repeat this strategy. If you look them straight in the eye, showing no fear, as if they are a child, many times they will calm down because they will realize that it's not working anymore.

I had to learn this trick. My wife used to get angry with me and start heaping abuse. I would hang my head and apologize and try to discuss rationally. That does not work. I learned to hold my chin up and look her in the eye and now she calms down because she sees that I have confidence in myself and that I'm not afraid of her. Your wife will begin to respect you more when she realizes that she has lost the power to frighten you.

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: legato ]</small>

Thanks Legato,

I was miss interpretting some things. Yes I've been the victum of extreme emotional abuse. Trying to keep my chin up and let it slide off my back was killing me. I hear you about let her go if I'm gaining something usefull from it (eg. the pacing). Actually the pacing must be a genetic thing, my brother does that too. When we're both together we've been teased about it.

I probably won't get my set the table exercise into action until at least Thursday (she has school tonight and work on Wednesday). I think she should have cooled down about things a little more by then.

I think I should say something as I start to set the table. "I want to be helpfull. I know you said this bothered you, but I think it was more the pacing around that really irritated you. I'll work on that."

I know this sounds really stupid and petty, but if I am going to start asserting myself I must start small and most importantly start somewhere!

As for her condesending tone of voice or just nasty comments I'm going to let her know I don't like it. Maybe something like "when you speak to me that way it makes me mad". I prefer saying nice things, like "that dinner was great, thanks hun".

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<small>[ March 15, 2005, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: MarkNY ]</small>

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<small>[ March 15, 2005, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: MarkNY ]</small>

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<small>[ March 15, 2005, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: MarkNY ]</small>