<small>[ March 15, 2005, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: MarkNY ]</small>

Here's the other thing; she may be trying to needle you so that you blow up and then that helps her to continue justifying her bad behavior. Don't fall into the trap. You are not the same man that you were. You are a new and improved version of yourself. Don't give her any justification for treating you badly and I predict that she will feel bad about treating you this way.

Has that ever happened; that she comes and apologizes for what she has said to you?

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: legato ]</small>

A few times she has appologized. Once for saying I hate you (although she said I rate pretty close) and another time for blowing up when I asked her how school was.

A few days after my telling OMW she appoligized for simular behavoir.

Lately no. But to her credit she has gotten a bit better. Most things lately are from me pushing and prodding. I'm going to back off.

When I came home today I asked her how her day went, get much accomplished? She went into a rendition of went to the supermarket, went to the library, looked at invitations, "are you satisfied?" I didn't let the last comment slide. I said I'm just trying to make some pleasent conversation, there was no need for that comment 'are you satisfied', it just hurts.

I should of kept it a bit shorter, but for my first time out not too bad. She mumbled something that started with 'well...' then the phone rang. After her call I asked her about the invitations (son's communion). She chatted briefly in a stern voice. Then she left for school. I think she's still bracing for an inquisition. I started on her over the weekend about I wanted to know what went on sometime.

I plan on backing off the affair story for now.

Re: Child like behaviour:

"I hate you" - reminded me of a little kid 'I hate you daddy'.

"Your pacing drives me crazy" - as she walks back and forth rapidly saying "see, see, see..."

There's more , just dont remember specifics.


On another note I think I'm losing my resolve to work things out. I still want to, but I'm too exhausted. I now 3 months isn't that long, but its been 3 months of sheer torture. I'm almost ready to tank out on life. I'm giving serious though to anti D's. I think I'll make an appointemnt tomorrow.

Yes, I would back off completely. I think what you will find is that eventually when she realizes that it is safe for her to talk to you that she will actually want to talk about things with you. But right now any probing on your part is perceived as trying to gather information in order to use it as a weapon against her. Back off and let her come to you. It could take awhile so be patient. Try to be upbeat (I know it's hard). Just try to make the home life as peaceful and pleasant as you possibly can.

ADs might be good but don't abuse. I would stay away from Paxil. It seems to cause extreme irresponsibilty.

I tried Zoloft and it made me feel very very strange. I quit after a week.

My wife takes Welbutrin and it seems to be very good; makes her feel normal.

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: legato ]</small>

I might need more of an anti anxiety drug. My stomach is in knots, I can't concentrate and I feel ready to explode. Last summer I tried welbuitrin and it cranked my anxiety level when they upped the dose, effexor f'd me up from day 1. I'm really shy about these things now, but I'm willing to gicve it yet another try - maybe 3rd time is a charm.

Tonight I'm just so uptight - got about another hour before the Mrs gets home from school. I think I'll be in bed by then, just to avoid her. If she starts something tonight I'll just explode.

This morning she was saying she wants to talk, but when she sees me she can't. This is still fall out from my pushing this past weekend.

She says I don't understand her and she wonders if it's even worth it. I agreed I don't understand her and I want to. I explained my thoughts and feelings aren't coming accross right either.

I need triage!

I told her maybe we need a facilitator - maybe someone we can sit down with together or on ata time, someone to act as a mediator. I'm trying to put the breaks on.

Help!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agreed I don't understand her and I want to </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a great response! It lets her know that you care about her and that you're trying.

I think Zoloft might be good for anxiety. It did work for me as far as lowering the anxiety level.

Is there someone close, preferably a male, that you can talk to about all of this?

Again, she has to feel safe before she will be able to open up. You have to try and create that safety for her. No more lovebusting. Try to be a friend to her, a good listener.

I'm trying to make it clear we don't need to talk ASAP. I told her when she's ready. She has many issues I'm sure. I [mostly] believe her that nothing sexual happened. Just a shadow of a doubt. The fact is she went through great lenghts to hide her conversation with this man.

Real Example:
On Nov 7 we went to D12's basketball game - seperate cars. She planned to leave early to do some shopping. She seemed elsewhere that night and kept checking the time. She left and records show she used her phone card from a payphione in a shopping center to call OM. Call was 35 secs (left message or maybe I'll call you right back?) and 15 minutes later he calls back her cell phone for just a 1 min call. What does that look like? A far cry from taking a call in the other room.

I fear talking to her also. Maybe if I just listen well I'll make some big points. I'd much rather have a counelor present, just to give me comfort. This is way outside my comfort zone. We don't have a MC just IC's (2). I dont think she'll agree to MC just yet.

Mark-

Another off the wall thought for you. Try carrying on your conversations on the REALLY tough issues with your wife via IM conversations. It sounds silly, I know. But when I had to return to work after my wife's online affair came out, I started IMing her from work. At first, it was to "check up on her", I freely admit. But we also found that when something was too tough for us to face "in person", we were able to talk about it a little easier via IM's, because it's a lot harder to convey emotions that way. We weren't "in each other's face" so to speak.

Talk to her about it. Again, it's a way to try to begin the discussions you need without all the emotional blow up. It sounds silly, but it absolutely helped my wife and I talk about our situation when we couldn't deal with it face to face.

Dont have a close male to talk to about this, other than IC.

I talk to my brother a bit, but he doesn't have anything more to say than you two have to talk about it.

The one thats been the most help to me is a woman I work with. I know - thats dangerous and in a way I'm doing just what my wife was supposedly doing. But she's been a sympathetic ear and given me some advise. Part of which was don't tell the guys wife. I still think I should have listened to that piece and worked on my wife more before blowing this up.

Owl,

I do think about written words, maybe thats the better way to start. I just don't want things being further misunderstood and causing more riff. I prefer the couselor route since its a person to keep us under control.

I have to think about the IM idea.

I am so outside my comfort zone now its not funny.

Mark,
I hadn’t checked your thread in a while so I started reading the whole progression of events as they took place and let them bring me up to date. I think that if you did this for yourself, it might help you to get a fresh perspective on this thing.

Anyway, here’s a few observations and a little advice, you might find helpful.

1. Your exposure of the affair was not only 100% the right thing to do, it was the best thing you could have done for yourself.
2. To hasten your WW toward feeling differently about you, you need to make some substantial changes in the way you communicate with her.
3. If it were me, I would learn to do nothing else with her but listen. I would never respond to anything she said to me if possible. I would seek to project profound interest in anything and everything she wished to say to me, BUT…offer no response or as little response as possible! In other words, just shut up! Be there to listen, listen and then listen some more. In the process, always make total eye contact and show no body language or facial expressions that communicate anything other then that you are paying her you total attention.
4. Offer her no advice and do not criticize her for anything. Just listen to her and observe.
5. Do not; I repeat DO NOT begin any relationship discussions with her at this time. Never bring anything up that has anything to do with the marriage, the future or what she might have done in the past. (Don’t worry because in the end, you will have all your questions answered, I promise!)
6. If she decides to have any kind of relationship discussion with you at all, just listen to her! Do not debate, argue or discuss your feelings with her. Just listen to her! Say nothing!
7. Start treating her with nothing other then total and complete, formal courtesy. Be polite and well mannered in every aspect of your life together almost to a fault. Do display or ask for any kind of affection. Do not say I love you or anything else. No kiss on the cheek! Nothing!
8. Be totally respectful of her privacy. Ask her no questions as to where she is, where she’s going, what she may be doing or who she may be doing it with.
9. Project (and this is WAY important) a very pleasant and happy demeanor in her presence. Be so f#cking cheerful that it will make you want to vomit! LOL She must conclude that as far as you’re concerned there is nothing in the world that isn’t just great.
10. Do not discuss any problems you may be having in your life with her. Ask for no emotional support.
11. Begin making plans for yourself and your children during free time. Always offer to include her in the activity itself and in the planning, but follow through with the planning and the activity weather she agrees to participate or not.
12. Now this is important: When she gets nasty and mean with you, this is how you handle it.
· You wait until she is finished saying everything she has to say, while all the time continuing to make direct eye contact while she is howling!
· After she is finished and you’re sure that she is finished, you say the following or something like the following in the softest, calmest tone of voice you can manage to say it in, while still being sure that she will hear you. While making direct eye contact at all times tell her this and with no emotion: ~ “Wife, I have listened to what you just and I want you to know that I totally disagree. What you have just said is very hurtful to me and it would be very hurtful to me even if I believed or agreed for one second that it was all-true. But wife, true or not true it really doesn’t matter if this is your perception of me then so be it but I want you to know that no matter what you think of me, I am the father of your children and your husband. As such I don’t deserve to be spoken to in that tone of voice or with the vicious intent that you’ve chosen to strike out at me with. I am trying very hard to be loving and respectful and I expect at the very least to get the same back from you. Please do not ever speak to me in this way again. I work to hard at being a decent father and husband to allow myself to spoken to and treated with such disrespect.”~
· Then Mark, you turn away from her without saying another word and go to another room or out of the house entirely. Now you don’t vacate in a huff or go pout or anything else. You wait a while until you are in total control of yourself and then go back to her and re-engage but do so as if nothing had ever been said! Make no reference to her remarks or your response. Just go forward as if the whole thing never happened. And, Mark you do this every time she behaves this way.

This stuff works. Try it. Soon she will be adopting a totally different attitude with you. Just try it.
Coach

Thanks coach,

I opened up this can of worms and I honestly fear she'll start talking, defensively. Won't be pretty. If she does I'll do what you say - listen remain calm, etc.

Now if she asks me for rebuttal now what? I feel I should be prepared about what's bugging me. Or should I just say I have nothing to say and pass on an oprotunity to share my thougts?

Mark,
Doing what I advised and making it work, is all about attitude. Your attitude. This little exercise is good because it requires nothing other then you taking control of the only thing you can control, which is yourself. And because you will feel this as you go on, it will do wonders for your mental and emotional condition.

If she demands an answer to anything that you perceive as potential trouble, equivocate! Do like the cheaters do! LOL Give her answers like,
“I just don’t know right now, but I do know that your question deserves some serious consideration so give me a while to think about it, OK.” “I don’t know if I see it that way. I understand that you do but I want to really give this some serious thought. I want to try and understand this from your point of view.” Then change the subject!

If she’s in an evil mood and comes looking for a fight, don’t! It takes two to have an argument. In that situation, just stand there patiently until she finishes her initial diatribe, and then say something like, “hold that thought, I’ll be right back. I need to get to the john!” LOL And then go to the bathroom and lock yourself in for about 10 minutes. If when you come back, she starts yelling at you again, you make eye contact, listen until she’s through and then say in the softest tone possible, “honey, do you really need to scream at me? I’m standing right here. Why are you screaming at me?”

When some one (any one) yells at you, the correct response is to stand up strait and tall, look them right in the eye while they do there screaming, wait for the screaming to end, and then respond in the softest most positive tone of voice you can. In confrontational situations, the rule is that louder some one speaks, the softer you respond. It makes them stop and listen. And you never respond to the direct attack. You respond to the delivery. It’s always with something like, When some one (any one) yells at you, the correct response is to stand up strait and tall, look them right in the eye while they do there screaming, wait for the screaming to end, ad then respond in the softest most positive tone of voice you can. In confrontational situations, the rule is that louder some one speaks, the softer you respond. It makes them stop and listen. And you never respond to the direct attack. You respond to the delivery. It’s always with something like,

Mark,
Doing what I advised and making it work, is all about attitude. Your attitude. This little exercise is good because it requires nothing other then you taking control of the only thing you can control, which is yourself. And because you will feel this as you go on, it will do wonders for your mental and emotional condition.

If she demands an answer to anything that you perceive as potential trouble, equivocate! Do like the cheaters do! LOL Give her answers like, “I just don’t know right now, but I do know that your question deserves some serious consideration so give me a while to think about it, OK.” Or say something like, “I don’t know if I see it that way. I understand that you do but I want to really give this some serious thought. I want to try and understand this from your point of view.” Then change the subject!

If she’s in an evil mood and comes looking for a fight, don’t! It takes two to have an argument. In that situation, just stand there patiently until she finishes her initial diatribe, and then say something like, “hold that thought, I’ll be right back. I need to get to the john!” LOL And then go to the bathroom and lock yourself in for about 10 minutes. If when you come back, she starts yelling at you again, you make eye contact, listen until she’s through and then say in the softest tone possible, “honey, do you really need to scream at me? I’m standing right here. Why are you screaming at me?”

When some one (any one) yells at you, the correct response is to stand up strait and tall, look them right in the eye while they do there screaming, wait for the screaming to end, ad then respond in the softest most positive tone of voice you can. In confrontational situations, the rule is that louder some one speaks, the softer you respond. It makes them stop and listen. And you never respond to the direct attack. You respond to the delivery. It’s always with something like, “Why are you screaming at me? I don’t scream at you.” Or, “you don’t need to scream, I’m standing right here in front of you.”

And Mark remember this. You’re not ever obligated to answer every question or respond to every directive. You are obligated to behave in a way that makes you feel good about who you are. Folks that scream are out of control. You manage them by being IN control. This puts them at an immediate disadvantage…so much so that they actually feel it physically.

Doing as I suggest puts you in control and that’s a good place to be when being confronted by some one out of control.

Coach

Coach I understand. Now to get myself to do it. I am getting better about not getting sucked in, but sometimes it takes a few minutes for me to catch on. What gets me going is if I'm talk and she starts talking over me saying she doesn't believe 'yeah right'.

Yelling louder doesn't difuse anything. My brother in law was a cop and he told me that they are trained to treat even the badest with respect. Always us 'sir' and 'please' as in 'sir, please step out of the car'. You get a better response than if you said 'yo sc*m bag out of the car and kiss the pavement'.

I just live in fear of this woman right now, I realize what it means to be in an abusive relationship.

Wow, coach! An excellent post. This is definitely an effective way to handle abusive WS, and by the way, they are all abusive because, in case that you've forgotten, it's completely our fault that they were forced into cheating on us. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You can do this, Mark. It's like coach says; you take control of your own emotions and responses and let her do whatever she is going to do, always having a strategy to deal with the worst that she can dish out. I believe that if you put this into practice you will lose your fear. I also think that once you start to see some positive results you will be more encouraged and that shoud help with the anxiety.