My pre-A marriage WAS dandy, it was wonderful. We'd lost track of each other through family tragedy and forgotten how to reach out to each other.

Our post-A marriage is BETTER than dandy. We've learned to protect what we have, we've learned to reach out to each other instead of closing off, we've rediscovered each other and learned how much we value each other. We remember to look out for each other, to be romantic, to listen to each other.

Jen

FIM, I agree entirely. Both types are devestating for all involved. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, what if your pre A marriage was dandy..had every promise of being "first class" until the A, and now..it is less than with zero potential to ever be..although it's still "good".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it has no potential to ever be first class...why would you call it "good"? Why would you stay? If you are staying for your kids, then they deserve to see their parents happy and healthy. What are you going to do when they are grown and gone?

I don't know all of your story, noodle, but I do know that my wife thought our pre-A marriage was "dandy" as well, despite my efforts to inform her otherwise. Her post-A recognition that it wasn't made it possible for us to recover.

Even if that isn't the case for you, don't your think that you have a chance at a better marriage? I'm certainly not saying that an affair is a good thing..it's not. But, as with any catastrophic life event, you have the opportunity to grow and mature.

Yes, the innocence is lost. Now you are faced with dealing with each other in raw honesty. No fairy tales, no fluff.

It's ok to grieve the loss of the fairy tale. But there's no reason to spend the rest of your marriage in that grief. Prince Charming has warts...but he can still be your prince.

There will be new boundaries. New expectations. New behaviors. And new opportunities for intimacy.

It's never healthy to make fear and insecurity your daily rule. I could never stay in a marriage where it was for me. I would hope my wife wouldn't either.

It can be so much more if you really want it to be.

Low

I think that the affects that an affair has on a marriage cannot be compared to the affects of an illness, loss of job, new baby, etc. An affair is intentional. An affair is betrayal. Events that we have no control over like an illness do affect a marriage but they do not destroy marriages. I believe that an affair will permanently damage a marriage. Is the damage repairable? Yes. But can you erase it? No. It is something that will always be in your head. I think it's much easier for the unfaithful to move on and have a great marriage. This person stayed with them even though you betrayed them. Who wouldn't be able to move on. To have someone love you enough and care enough to work through it. But the betrayed person is a whole different story. It haunts you daily. It's been 2 years since I found out and obviously there has been much more to it but I literally think about it, have visions about it, etc more than 3 times a day. It's terrible to live with. I do think with a lot of time and with a lot of work and withOUT any more betrayals the marriage can get better but I truly think it will take years- 10+ to really feel comfortable being with him.

One night stand versus long term affair . . . That has been a big question for me because my husband was with multiple women which seemed to have no love involved and to me it seems it would be better to destroy our marriage because you fell for someone else instead of just sex. I don't know!

From the MB Website under "The Four Rules For Marital Recovery"

Harley is writing to the WS...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you are willing to permanently end your relationship with your lover (never see or communicate with him again), get through withdrawal, and then you and your husband follow the Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery, I guarantee you that you will have a great marriage. And I also guarantee you that neither of you will ever suffer through an affair again.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's what I'm talking about...GREAT MARRIAGE that is GUARANTEED AFFAIR PROOF!

Low

Well, I for one can't say that my M pre-A was dandy - there were a lot of things done wrong, incorrectly, absent-mindedly, ignorantly, and even some intentionally. I can even say that my M was no where near where I wanted it to be, or even thought it could be...and was in fact closer to coach, or maybe even the baggage area, than anywhere near the cockpit and first-class!

But I can definitely say that my M post-A is nothing less than first class...matter of fact, I just got off the phone with H, he was telling me that he took $ out of our account, and what every cent was for. Well, truth be known, I already knew that - I was balancing the account when the charge showed up...he didn't have to tell me, and pre-A, he wouldn't have acknowledged it if I'd printed it and blew it up to billboard size, not out of spite, but because we were more like two people in a 3-legged race, headed for opposing finish lines.

Now, post-A, we take the time to tell each other what's going on with us, because we know how important it is to confide in each other, than ever before. Our M now, as I said, IS first-class, and I beg anyone to prove otherwise.

Also, another point of view - B&SIL have what is one of the best marriages I've seen in a long time...have they been through an A? I don't think so, but honestly don't know. Do they know that we didn't have a great M the first 7-8 years? Yes - Do they know that we have a stellar M now? YES!!! Do they know why? No, they think it was because we finally allowed God to be the head of our household and our M (which we did <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )...do they know there was an A in the midst of it all, no, and they probably won't, but the reason WHY the M has gotten to the point it is, is really not the point...the goal line, the prize, is to have a first-class M.

One poster (sorry I didn't copy it first) said that you cannot liken an A to an illness...I beg to differ. An affair IS an illness. It is an illness that has affected your M. I take some responsibility for the things that led my H to the place he found himself...I do not think the choice he made to "remedy" those things that were wrong with the marriage was my responsibility...but the road that led us there, yup, we were 50-50 - I'll hit your dog, you'll kick my cat! An affair is like a cancer - it eats away at your mind, and your soul, as well as the body of your marriage. Sometimes you don't survive it, those are the ones I would say ended in D, but sometimes, the medicine you use (like the MB principles of Plan A, and B when necessary) are sometimes just what the doctor ordered. Do you think a cancer patient who has survived cancer and is now in remission (recovery) thinks their life is 2nd class, or coach now? NOT HARDLY!!! And that is the same passion I now have for my marriage, and I will defend it...

There, but by the grace of God, go I.

I think I may be misunderstood..I am referring to Harleys assertion that a M in which the MB concepts are applied and in which there is NO infidelity will be better/stronger/less damaged than a marriage that uses MB concepts as a recovery tool FROM infidelity. I agree with this, but he isn't God, you don't have to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Not saying that a post infidelity M CAN NOT be good. Infidelity [any betrayal really] creates inherent weakness in the M structure, I really think..that's me..not Harley, again take with multiple grains of salt.

So the urge to join hands and sing "We are the champions" is understood..especially when where you are NOW is so much better than where you have BEEN. I just don't think it negates the concept though.

When I see the two compared..I see best, and less good..however marginally. It doesn't mean that #2 is not worth it. Guess no one here will ever know.

I'm going to chew on this though, and see what I come up with. I think it's worth working through..good topic Low.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by chaverskev:
I think that the affects that an affair has on a marriage cannot be compared to the affects of an illness, loss of job, new baby, etc. An affair is intentional. An affair is betrayal. Events that we have no control over like an illness do affect a marriage but they do not destroy marriages. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Insert any life altering scenario you like. Some occur by choice, some do not. Any of the examples above can indeed destroy a marriage. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I believe that an affair will permanently damage a marriage. Is the damage repairable? Yes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then the damage is not permanent. We can either wear the scars of infidelity and forever be a victim or we can persevere and grow from the lessons learned. That is a choice. It is also a choice stay married to the person that betrayed you. You can do either of the above with or without the WS.

<small>[ January 25, 2005, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

noodle,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Infidelity [any betrayal really] creates inherent weakness in the M structure... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I think it exposes weaknesses in the M that are already there. Post-A marriages again, are more aware of their weaknesses and can be better equipped to protect the structure of the M.

What weaknesses do you think an A creates in a post-A marriage?

I guess I didn't mean permanent damage, more like permanent affects. I just don't understand how your marriage can be better after an A. I would like to think so but the way I feel doesn't seem to be getting better. Maybe with years of no A's and no betrayals things do feel better. Maybe my H needs to be more honest because to me it seems there was nothing wrong with our M before the A came out. He says the same thing. Our M seemed great, except that every once in a while there was a questionable phone call or something with him. Then one day BAM he tells me about these other women. But it still didn't seem like it was something missing in the M but more something missing with him. Do you believe in the short men complex?? Like they need to feel better about themselves??

Oh, screw it.

<small>[ January 25, 2005, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong> Low,

I'm in agreement with Dr Harley on this one.

I believe that application of the principles he lays out will improve a marriage.

I believe that a bad marriage can be good and a good one better.

I also agree though..that when infidelity is in the equation that the marriage will NEVER be what it COULD have been had it not.

The infidelity was in NO WAY helpfull to the marriage..only destruction. The principles are what makes the positive changes.

So basically..you can have a GOOD marriage post A..but no matter how hard you try, you will always fly coach. It will always be second class. You might like coach just fine, but the same principles applied to a non A affected marriage will give a first class marriage with the same effort.

Damage is damage. It's real, it's lasting. What could have been is irretrievable.

So with that in mind..I'm not sure how to vote..because the choices do not take my belief into consideration. Answering either way gives a false statement from me.

Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle:

Very wise words. I agree 100% with you. NOTHING EVER GOOD can come from an affair. Can people recover ?...yep.....but like a heart attack, that piece of muscle is forever scarred and damaged. You can NEVER get those cells back. Yes, you can take beta blockers and aspirin, stop smoking, lose weight and go to cardiac rehab....and make a full recovery....BUT.....you are forever a heart attack victim and are at INCREASED risk for another one. Anytime you get a "twinge" of chest pain you will FOREVER be anxious and have you questioning : "is this my heart again"?

I think this was a good question. I applaud all of those who can recover a marriage after an affair. This is such an incredibly devestating event. I believe that despite what many will say...if they are honest with themsleves to the core, they will tell you that the memories will always be there...and that "innocence" can NEVER be recovered. That is just a reality. I think however that 2 people truly committed to building a new marriage after an affair can do it. The new marriage can be better than the "old" one. I still believe that a marriage "on the rocks" WITHOUT infidelity can still fly first class, while a marriage "recovered" can fly.....but never in first class. (I am sure that many here will take offense to this and miss what I am really saying). That may not be so bad for some though. YOu are still flying and going places. Your "first class" and "coach" analogy was insightful. Yeah, many marriages have a lot of problems, but when someone betrays another with infidelity....it is just so devestating, and I belive that one never truly forgets.. YOu can forgive, but never forget. Thankfully too many people (BS) , this is a small price to pay for keeping their WS and marriage and family intact. To all of those people, you have my best wishes and prayers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


LM

<small>[ January 25, 2005, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

Here's my thought.

If the BS makes the decision to remain in the M after their spouse's A ...

and recovery efforts are basically bilateral and equally shared by both spouses ...

Once both spouses are fully commited to recovery...

Assuming time has passed... the BS is no longer in the position to say things like this to their FWS "Your affair caused permanent lasting damage."

Post recovery you're either in or your out. Make up your mind. And if you decide to stay in ... then quit bellyaching and enjoy a nice life and a wonderful rest of your marriage. THAT is what the BS's task is.... knowing when to be fully in or fully out. Make up your mind, or drive yourself crazy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Pep

<small>[ January 25, 2005, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
I still believe that a marriage "on the rocks" WITHOUT infidelity can still fly first class, while a marriage "recovered" can fly.....but never in first class. (I am sure that many here will take offense to this and miss what I am really saying).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am laffin my [censored] off LM.... really.

We are flying first class .... we really are. Our 9-year-recovered-24-year-long marriage probably stacks up favorably against many marriages that never went through the infidelity crisis.

Your opinion vs my life experience. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

<small>[ January 25, 2005, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
I still believe that a marriage "on the rocks" WITHOUT infidelity can still fly first class, while a marriage "recovered" can fly.....but never in first class. (I am sure that many here will take offense to this and miss what I am really saying).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am laffin my [censored] off LM.... really.

We are flying first class .... we really are. Our 9-year-recovered-24-year-long marriage probably stacks up favorably against many marriages that never went through the infidelity crisis.

Yours opinion vs my life experience. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep:

Just by your defensive remark I am sure that you took my post (and opinion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) the wrong way. ****sigh**** I am not suprised, it is as all good though. I think it is great you and your hubby are flying "first class". I am happy for you and your husband and the way you have recovered your marriage. Hopefully others here will be as fortunate as you and your H.

Cheers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

<small>[ January 25, 2005, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

There are a lot of really good points here.

I do think that a lot of it comes down to perspective though.

I may be totally off base and who am I to say being that I'm pushing forward with a divorce....but....

Yes. The innocence will forever be gone. The trust will be tarnished. The anxiety will surface.

Of course, the same could be said of any type of recovery. In the past, my temper would get the best of me at times. I'd fly off the handle when things went wrong and get all b*tchy.

One of the things my WH was worried about was my going back to that. I'm sure that would have remained a fear for a while.

Now, those aren't exactly the same, but there are many situations that would be hard to get over and restore in a marriage.

That doesn't mean they can't be overcome or used to improve a situation.

In the example of the heart attack. Yes, the muscle and cells are damaged.

But you know what, the heart is just part of the whole. If you lose the weight, change the lifestyle, work on making that heart more healthy, you can still go on to live a great life. In fact, I've heard of many instances where people say that a heart attack turned their life around and made them realize how important life is. My uncle has said he never really lived until his heart attack made him realize what was important. That heart may need healing and may never be pre-heart attack healthy...but the overall quality of life and health CAN be vastly improved.

An A can be just part of a recovered marriage. You can't ever take that away. BUT maybe it can be a wake up call.

I say that it may be the perspective. You can choose to look it as impossible for anything positive to come from the ashes of an affair. Or, you can work at getting healthy (if both are willing to work.

I could say every day since I was born I am one day closer to death. OR I can say look how much life I have left to live.

Both are right. Where am I going to put my energy?

(I should say that this would be assuming BOTH people are working to restore the marriage and earn back the trust and love needed for a lifetime commitment)

any guesses as to why my friends used to call me Pollyanna? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithinme:
<strong> That heart may need healing and may never be pre-heart attack healthy...but the overall quality of life and health CAN be vastly improved.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with 100% of what you posted. YOu actually illustrate my opinion better than me. I guess too me the analogy of "first class" is analogous to "pre-heart attack healthy". Many people who have had a heart attack make life altering changes in their life and in a way can actually say they were "given a new life" by the heart attack (i.e affair) changing their destructive ways (sadly, most people do NOT change their ways of life after a heart attack) that may have lead to a deadly heart attack (i,e divorce). I agree and the same can be said of a recovered marriage after an affair....BUT IMO, you can never have that "pre heart attack healthy" heart...aka first class seat of a marriage not scarred by infidelity. You can recover and build up again but you can "NEVER go back". YOu can live a great and productive life (i,e have a great and satisfying marriage after an affair) but it will never be quite the same. Maybe it doesn't matter in the end. Who knows. People who have had a near fatal death usually are just so happy to be still be living that to them any life and chance to see their loved ones and family is better than death and the thoughts of life before the experience may not matter. Just my opinion.....take it or leave it....... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Cheers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


LM

I was one who voted "yes" to the first two questions.

I do believe that we could rebuild our marriage if we both committed to it. But I do believe that there will always be something broken about it. I would not try to rebuild if I didn't think it could be better than before, but there is STILL something broken.

And here's the big problem for me as a BS. That brokeness does not just pertain to my marriage. If this marriage does not work out, my future relationships are forever tainted. I'm not talking major baggage...but it will always be in the back of my mind.

You see, this was my 2nd marriage. I was not going into this marriage in a fairytale land. I felt that I had made a REALLY good choice and this was the marriage that would see me into the rocker on the front porch. We dated for quite awhile before we got married. We talked about a lot of things before we got married.

Little did I know that it would not even take five years for my world to be shattered. Little did I know that he would not embrace working through our problems at the first sign of trouble.

My self-esteem is pretty good despite what has happened. But I will never ever ever trust my judgement about people again. I held my husband up to the light, saw the cracks and still felt it was a good match--felt it was the right match. I gave it plenty of time before I walked down that aisle. But still...I was wrong.

So you see, even though this marriage might always have something broken about it, so will any other marriage that I might have. For me it is worth it to try and rebuild this one. If I stop now, I'll regret it and I don't want to live a life of regret--I've had enough of that.

I thought I'd better consult the "expert" before I said any more. I told my H I'd been quoting him left, right and centre and telling everyone how he was feeling.

Yep, he's over the A, can't see the point in not forgiving me, doesn't define me by the A, agrees that things are better than before.

Gee, I love that man. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jen