Okay, then talk this over with your husband and see what he has to say and if he's in agreement, then you could write the letter. I do think though that you both should prepare yourself for just about ANY reaction. You might be surprised, it could be positive. But then it could also open up something very painful again and cause even your H some pain again. You ought to really think about this very hard and be prepared for anything because it may not go the way you want it too.

My FWH's OW is getting married soon (not to him though - we're still together) and there had been times when I thought about contacting her fiancee and ruining everything for her. Now, the good part was that I didn't have any names, addresses etc., therefore I was not able to which was probably a good thing. I'm over this now. I've prayed long and hard to God about this and I asked him to please help me become a better person. In my own way, I have forgiven this woman and I want for her to be happy and to never have to participate in hurting another person like that again. This is even difficult for me to write, but it is something that I truly wish for her. I also wish that she will never ever have to experience the same kind of pain that I had to experience. My husband, before he went NC, had at one time told me that she had expressed interest in meeting me. I thought long and hard about it, but I declined. I just want to leave all this pain behind me and us now. What happened can never be changed and it can't be sugarcoated.

My hope is that EVERYONE has learned from this situation and if we can all come out stronger and hopefully even help others then it will make us ALL feel better.

Kati

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
<strong> Kati- I have never met my H's ExW. I do perform
volunteer work. I would never approach her w/o
talking to H first (POJA) and feeling that it was
something that she wanted and felt would help her.
If that did come to pass, I would probably
write her a letter and keep it short and to the
point.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Pink-

It is a gut reaction to a BS to fire a warning shot across your bow, knowing that you were an OW, and are now married to your A partner.

You posting is going to be a trigger for a lot of people due not only to your past, but that you are presently married to him....I think that may actually be the key.

The things they say are not directed at you personally, they feel the pain that your H's XW must have felt, and they deal with it daily....when they're talking to you, it's like they are talking to the OP in their situation.....that's my hypothesis anyway LOL

You are actually a trigger for me to, but I won't allow myself to tear you down, because
A) I don't know you or you situation
B) You are not the OW in my sitch

The break up of a marriage is the most painful thing I've ever experienced, and I say I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.....but that's not a true statement, I absolutely do wish it on my WH's OW....I have no other enemies.

That's why I stated in my last post that I thought the apology was a bad idea....if it were the OW in my sitch, I wouldn't care what she thought or how sorry she was....nothing could make me feel any differently about her.

Don't worry about other people forgiving you, as long as you've asked God for forgivness....nobody else counts.

Hope this helps!

-Caren

TPP,

Is an apology from you to his XW appropriate and called for? I think that it is.

The question is..what precisely are you apologising for? To know this is to get to the heart of the matter. What is it that you are guilty of? You may object to the harshness of Mulans post, but it is undeniably accurate, so let's look at this issue without the harshness and find the right words to give closure on the matter to all involved, to the greatest degree involved. It may be that at this time you are not yourself prepared to make an honest apology.

TPP, a sincere apology must contain no false sentiment. You have taken from her what belonged to her against her wishes [theft]. This is not the time or the place to argue that the M was it's way out..no one in this unhappy triangle will ever know what might have been the final analysis without the contribution of the affair. So what you are guilty of, is theft .

Unfortunately, it is impossible to say that you entirely regret your actions..as you now have much invested in a relationship with this man. In the truest essence of things..you are enjoying your ill gotten gain. You would not be willing to give it up in order to make amends, therefore, you are not remorsefull, merely ...sad that your present M had such an unsavory beginning? Sad that what you would like to view with fondness and attach to pleasure was truly a crime committed against another person, who suffered very much as a result? Sad, that you are finding when you look inside yourself..that you have in fact not been a good person? Not a trustworthy or ethical or kind person at all? And perhaps this is what you regret?

Based on what I am able to glean from your words..I think that this is the case..and so an apology would look something like this...


XW,

I have accepted that my actions and my choices were unethical, unkind, untrustworthy, and selfish in the extreme. I am ashamed that I behaved in this way. I realise that you have been harmed by my choices. I take full responsibility for my actions and the harm they have caused, and I apologise.

Sincerely
Your First Name
[Mrs. XXX is a rub..don't go there]

You are not able to apologise for your primary offense..because you do not regret it..but you can apologise for the behavior that you now accept to be unnacceptable from anyone who wants to live their life at the standard that you seem to want to ascend to.

It is important also..that the apology not include MORE than what I have included. XW is not responsible for your sadness..your reasons..your hopes for her future happiness as even there..an element of selfishness can not be avoided. What if she lived faithfull to her marriage until the day she died? How then would you go on? You would have no alternative but to leave the relationship or continue to be that which you would rather discard [thief, villain]. No, you profit very much from her change in status. When she remarries..your claim on this relationship has its first hint of legitimacy. Until then..marriage certificate or no..you were still nothing more than the OW.

I strongly suspect that your motive here is to remove the stain of the adultery from your M now that she is moving on..unfortunately this can never be so. Although I understand entirely the motivation to do so..your history was what it was and will never be anything else. You can not force a wrong relationship to be right. You can safeguard it..and MB principles can help with that..but your history will always be shamefull..and the two of you will have the option of lying about or enduring the shame and nothing to be done about it. This is a sad outcome for everyone. Isn't it strange that the person who will least suffer the longterm effects is XW? That she is truly free to pursue her new marriage in a way that you will never be able to? If you have done your research..I'm sure that you are aware that the odds of success in this marriage are quite bleak. May I ask why you have chosen to continue on this path..despite that it has obviously been the wrong one every step of the way?

Noodle

[i before e except after c <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ]

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

She is very happy and H is happy for her- although I think he
took it a bit in the ego (her fiance is younger,
better educated and wealthier than he).

Happy endings all the way around as it appears. For those of you who do feel triggered by Paige's situation, the XW's present happiness should be a hopeful, positive example to you, the XW has moved on and is no longer in the place where you stand now.

An underlying trigger appears to be the issue of whether or not some feel Paige's marriage can be accepted as being legitimate. Her actual dilemma(to apologize or not?) appears to be ascribed with "selfish" motives by some due to the trigger. This is most likely why both sides are having having difficulty feeling *heard*. Am I correct?

Opinions on her marriage's legitimacy are completely irrelevent to REALITY. She is legally MARRIED just like the rest of us, regardless of HOW she got there or how any one of us feels about it. This is a marriage building site so tearing her marriage down on the basis of its origin is obviously not condusive to marriage building.

Paige is a married woman who is here asking how to best handle her desire to apologize to the first wife. It is commendable that she has this desire at all IMO, b/c not all will feel even remotely moved to do so. Bottom line, she has been happily and legally married for three years (despite anyone's opinions to the contrary) and any debate concerning this just deflects from the purpose of this site.

If you have done your research..I'm sure that you are aware that the odds of success in this marriage are quite bleak. May I ask why you have chosen to continue on this path..despite that it has obviously been the wrong one every step of the way?

What would your personal suggestion be to rectify this, Noodle? My vote is for Paige to strive for an MB marriage, what do you think? KB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by knewbetter:

Opinions on her marriage's legitimacy are completely irrelevent to REALITY. She is legally MARRIED just like the rest of us, regardless of HOW she got there or how any one of us feels about it. This is a marriage building site so tearing her marriage down on the basis of its origin is obviously not condusive to marriage building.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep

KB,

Well, I'm honestly not sure that I have one.

Choice A..walk away.

Choice B..try and make a go of it.

I asked out of blatant curiosity actually. When one has come out of the FOG so to speak..as it seems she may have [it's about the right timeline, no?] and can look back and see that every step towards this relationship has been the wrong choice..and look ahead and see the positively appalling likelyhood of failure..yet chooses it anyway..I have to admit I wonder why, and not having experienced things as she has..I can't even begin to speculate. The closest guess I can make is a fatalistic "in for a penny, in for a pound" mentality.

As to whatever else you may have objected to..I can happily assure you that dragging her further through the mud has no appeal to me. She asked a Q and I have taken it at face value. I really think that in order to apologise sincerely, you have to know what you are apologising FOR and what motivates you to desire to apologise in the first place. I tried to read what she has written as though I had written it myself. Why would I say such and such..why now..why did I give the facts that I did, why did I consider them relevant, how did I respond to others....? If I put myself in this position..this is what I come up with..so I offer that. If I'm wrong [shrugs] it wouldn't be the first time, but without more information it's the best I can do.

I think..that as a BS, the apology I outlined would be one that I could accept.

It could go wrong very easily..it very easily could become something as insulting as "I'm sorry that I feel bad for what I did to you..not sorry I did it..sorry I feel bad about it, now that you are happy..I'd like to not feel bad anymore". I don't know too many people who would accept that apology. I think it a very worthwhile set of questions to ask oneself..and very relevant to the initial question. I have read and reread and do not see an attack. There are ugly truths in this marriage..and hiding from them is neither helpfull nor kind.

If TPP is not interested in my perspective and would rather I not partake..I am happy to oblige of course..but no harm was intended, and I really do not think any was dealt.

Noodle

Well for me it has nothing to do with the fact she’s married to her XMM now. For me it has to do with the fact that it’s been three years and the XW has specifically requested not to hear from her. Yes, the XW has obviously moved on, great for her! But I don’t think it’s fair to her or anyone else involved, including Paige, to take a chance of dredging up all those feelings again. And it’s a gamble, that much is obvious. No one knows how she would react. Why gamble with someone’s life like that especially since EVERYONE has moved on. What gives her the right to take that chance? Because she if finally acknowledging what she did was wrong. Come on, you don’t mess with people’s lives like that.


I do think it is commendable that she realizes her wrong doing. Better late than never is not always the case though. Just my two cents worth.

O.k., I'm back.
BelongingToNoWhere are you around?
Is the Question your looking for a response to
"
No, but what would be good enough apology for you??
(And I'd still like you to answer what you THINK it would be)"
I've been thinking about that and have come to
the conclusion that although there are a
number of ways to phrase it sincerely. It would
not be the exact wording but my feelings about
things at the time, where my head was at so to
speak that would be the factor in determining
my willingness to accept an apology.
Maybe not a great answer but a honest one.

Noodle-
Are you familar with the phrase
Love the sinner, hate the sin?
I hate what my H and I did to his eW. On some
level it does taint my M. But my marriage is
a legitimate one. I married him-knowing the
stats, knowing the extra work required because
I truly love him with all my heart. I'm here
laying bare truths safer left unsaid because
I want my M to endure and thrive and ensure that
I never go through the pain I see here. Even
though I often feel I deserve it.

2B,

I agree that it would almost certainly create conflict .

It's a moral position of mine, that when a person has committed an offense against another and becomes moved [genuinely] to apologise for it..that the opportunity shouldn't be denied to either.

I don't think it's always pretty..or a quick fix..I just can't quite make myself say "No, just live with it" though.

Everyone has the right to be sorry for what they have done. Also, you just never know what you might set in motion by acting on something like sincere regret and honest self appraisal.

Having "The OP" humble themself before you isn't exactly every BSs dream come true..because..we kind of want to hate them, but could you really deny forgiveness if they did? I don't think I could. I'm sure of it actually.

Your mileage may vary of course.

Noodle

Pink, your last reply to Noodle (I am unable to copy and post for some reason today) -

Now this I can understand. This is sincere... it is your truth.

And the beginnings of your marriage are VERY relevant because it is plagueing you inside. I have been there. This was probably the biggest factor in my own relationship not working out.

I could not come to terms with the fact he was married when I started seeing him (didn't know for 8 months). How our relationship started literally almost destroyed me.

It IS relevant because you must come to terms with it, so you don't destroy your marriage subconsciously.

This I understand Pink. Now I know why you are here.

I think part of maturation is a close examination of one’s life and actions. When one realizes and grasps the full extent of past wrongs, I think it is incumbent upon each of us to do our best to make amends, if possible.

Piage helped to break up a marriage. She had and affair with a married man. That man divorced his wife and married her. Obviously, she helped to cause great pain for this woman. Paige is beginning to understand the devastation that she helped cause and she wishes to somehow show this remorse, perhaps to the XW.

Pep. referred to step 9 of AA "Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.”

This is the rub. How to make amends and would her attempt hurt the XW. That I do not know.

Perhaps she could send a letter. This letter could clearly indicate who it is from on the envelope. The XW could then make the choice to open it and read it or toss it in the trash. Maybe this is two presumptuous?

I think we are all worthy of forgiveness, but it might not be fair to ask a person that has suffered such a loss for it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:


Pep. referred to step 9 of AA "Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.”

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXactly!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

***"I'm sorry that I feel bad for what I did to you..not sorry I did it..sorry I feel bad about it, now that you are happy..I'd like to not feel bad anymore".***

Bull's-eye.

Paige, if you truly are sorry for what you did to your husband's XW -- for involving yourself in her life without her consent -- then leave her alone. Don't put yourself in her life again because you want her to let you feel okay about what you did. All you will be doing, as I said, is rubbing salt into a perpetually open wound.

I am convinced you are not "apologizing" to make the XW feel better. You are doing it in hopes of making *yourself* feel better. It's an attempt to ease your conscience now that you are married and the XW has moved on.

It's also very typical WS/OP behavior. You don't have to take my word for it. There are many threads on this board where shocked BSs get messages from their WSs basically saying "tell me you're okay and we're still friends so I don't have to feel so bad about myself."

You asked, "Should I apologize to the XW of the man I had an affair with and later married?" My answer is "Good god, no. You'll only be rubbing her face in it. If you're truly sorry, leave her alone and find some other way to ease your conscience."

In the end, my opinion doesn't matter at all. You can still do whatever you like. You asked a question and many of us here gave you an answer. That's all.
Mulan

Noodle.

The offense was committed against the XW, she should be the one that says, yes, I am ready for the apology not forced upon her by receiving a letter, email, or what have you. Since there is still a “friendship” between the XW and her XH, HE should be the one that cracks that door so to speak and test the waters. No way should there just be a letter that shows up in the mail one day.

I don’t know what I would do if the XOW in my case asked for my forgiveness. She did ask at the time of D-Day if I hated her and would I continue to hate her. At the time the answer was an automatic yes, what a stupid question in my opinion. But time has passed and I can’t say that I hate her, I don’t know her. But I can say I hate her actions. If she was to apologize now, I’m not sure what I’d do or say. Like I said before, it’s easy to say what you think you’d do, but when it comes down to it, it usually doesn’t work out that way. I do believe thought I don’t think I’d be too open to it 3 years from now. To me if you were sorry, you’d been sorry a long time before that. IMHO

As to whatever else you may have objected to..I can happily assure you that dragging her further through the mud has no appeal to me. She asked a Q and I have taken it at face value.

I had no objections to your post, Noodle. The purpose of the body of my post was precisely to give Paige a chance to be taken at face value which didn't appear to be happening before you came along. I was just curious about if you thought she shouldn't continue along "this path" so I asked. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Your apology explanation was very good and hopefully it will help Paige sort through her feelings.

2B, I understand what you are saying. At any rate it is a POJA issue between her and her husband in the end, not something that Paige should really decide upon on her own anyway. BS input on the reception of an apology is valuable stuff and respectful disscussion on both sides of a sticky question can help the parties "hear" each other, Anyway, that was just me, trying to put some brakes on what was looking like a steep downgrade.

Now can we ALL vote to support Paige with marriage building when she comes on site? KB

Mulan

You said

I am convinced you are not "apologizing" to make the XW feel better. You are doing it in hopes of making *yourself* feel better. It's an attempt to ease your conscience now that you are married and the XW has moved on.

Why do you think this? Please be specific.
Is there a case you can think of where the
person apologizing does not feel better- I
think it is inherent in the desire to apologize.
It does not make the apology insincere.
Would a WS apology not be accepted because it
would make him feel better too- not just the
BS.
Or are we back to the trigger factor of my
M to my affair partner and that will never make
an apology from me a sincere one. What if my H
apologized to her- would that be insincere as
long as he was still married to me?

Now can we ALL vote to support Paige with marriage building when she comes on site? KB

For me? Absolutely, now that I get her sincerity.

It took her reply to Noodle for me to understand.

As you probably already surmised KB, this thread is of intense interest to me, although I wish that part of my life was safely buried already. Apparently it is not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good luck Pink!

{{{{{Weaver}}}}}

KB,

No harm no foul..just misunderstood because your post came directly after mine..was a bit chiding..and quoted me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I didn't get the "tone" right, my bad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

2B

I guess we just disagree..I think that a person makes an apology not for the offended party to be assauged..but because it is the right thing to do when you come to terms with the fact that you HAVE made an offense.

It is ALL about the OP [offending party] and only accidentally benefits the person they apologise to.

After all, we do not repent and ask forgiveness from God for his benefit..it is for our own.

And furthermore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> to forgive someone of an offense [debt] that there is no earthly way of receiving compensation for is a great act of sacrifice on the part of the offended party. It may be a beautifull thing..but it isn't a comfortable one.

So..making apology is not for the benefit of the person who was harmed..it has more to do with the journey of the harmer . It is about coming to grips with who you have been, and who you want to be. I also think..that not going in with the assumption that your apology WILL be accepted is just par for the course.

She may well tell TPP to rot in hell..we don't know. It will raise a conflict though..and I think this sort of conflict is healthy for all involved.

Just my .02

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong>
It will raise a conflict though..and I think this sort of conflict is healthy for all involved.

Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please explain to me how this can be healthy for all involved, especially some three years later when EVERYONE has gotten on with their lives. Dredging up the past, those feelings, those emotions, it's healthy? Can you explain that a little more!

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: 2B Us Again ]</small>