Pepperband- would like your thoughts - Marriage Builders® Forums

In past conversations on this board it has been
often suggested to me that I owe XW an apology
for my role in the A. I have been reluctant to
do so- since I had been informed that she never
wanted to meet and or speak with me. In case you
have forgotten me- I am married to my XMM.
Over the holidays XW called to tell H that she
had gotten engaged over the holidays. I suggested
to H that he send her an engagement gift either
with or without my signature included. She is very happy and H is happy for her- although I think he
took it a bit in the ego (her fiance is younger,
better educated and wealthier than he).
I thought this might be a good time to offer my
apologies- what do you think?

I think you should POJA this with your husband and both be in full agreement with the decision you jointly make.

Until then, do nothing.

Pep

I'm not Pepperband, but I'd say just leave things as they are.

I personally wouldn't want to hear it, especially since she has obviously moved on with her life. Just my opinion though.

One more thought.... if you do do this apology you do it because it will benifit HER, not yourself and your H.

OK?

Pep

What if I don't know if it would benefit her?
I feel I owe her an apology but than again
to the best of my knowledge her wish is to never
see/speak to me.
For the most part she has moved on with her life.
She moved across the country and is now planning
on remarrying. There are no children between
H and her. She does occasionally call H on his
cell at work- usually to chat about what is new
with her. She asks about H's family but never
asks about H or I.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
What if I don't know if it would benefit her?
<hr /></blockquote>Then assume it would not.

Thanks for asking.

Pep

If she wishes not to speak to you then what is your purpose of wanting to apologize now?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />her fiance is younger,
better educated and wealthier than he).<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

... therefore, she should forgive you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

No, it was advice I received from other board
members- that despite what I had heard regarding
her feelings- I should consider.
The recent news from her- since we hadn't heard
from her in a while just brought the question
up again.
She owes me nothing.
Why is it that anyone with a past or present
OW label is fair game to take swipes at?

I don't see anyone taking swipes, just asking questions.

But again, I ask. If she's made it clear that she doesn't want to hear from you, why do you feel the need to apologize now. What's it going to accomplish?

If she's made it clear, as you have stated, that she doesn't want to hear from you, why reopen that door when she is getting on with her life? I just don't get it?

In terms of swipes- I was refering to the
sarcastic comment by Belonging to Nowhere.

I agree with you and have no plans to approach
her. If you go back to my initial posts- you'll
see many BS who were insistent that I needed to
attempt contact and apologize. This wasn't an
original thought on my part. Perhaps you'd
have to read their posts to see what their thoughts were.

Well all I have to say is, it's been 3 years (if I read correctly) you need to let it go. Let her get on with her life.

If the OW contacted me after 3 years, all that would do is prove that she hasn't learned anything from this situation and get let things be. Has to be to constantly stir the pot, throw more fuel on a fire that was looks to be out.

Just let it go!

pink---i dont think she meant it as a swipe to you. maybe off color humor, but i dont think it was a swipe. some of us have only the humor left to cling to.

i think way back when if you felt remorsefull, the apology would have meant something. however after this amount of time and healing on her part...i dont think it will.

I liked what I quoted and I was very sincere.

What's really behind this sensitivity... might be an answer why apology now too?

Pink Paige,

I was a betrayed wife and I would like to offer you my viewpoint.

First of all, she probably said that she never wanted to speak to you at the time that she found out about the A. I said the same thing. Even though I said that and meant it at the time, I would very, very much like to receive a sincere apology from the former OW. A sincere apology would include a recognition of the extreme pain and trauma she willingly and knowingly caused me and our M (notice I said recognition, not understanding, because unless you have been in the BS position, you cannot comprehend the extent of the pain). In addition, you would recognize that, as the new W, you would not want an OW to get involved with your H and force that kind of pain onto you and your M. (In my case, the A is over and they are not M'd, but I think the emotions are similar enough.)

I might suggest that you carefully write it out and keep it brief, but sincere, and acknoledge that you do not expect anything from her (including her understanding and forgivess, which may take time if it ever happens).

Pink Paige - may I point out a few more things for you to consider? I hope you don't mind. For me, one of the difficult things about such an apology would be that you can't really "make things right." Usually when someone is truly sorry, they do what they can to repair the damage they caused and put things back together. For example, if some breaks a window in your house, they would apologize AND fix the window. You can't really do that in your situation - you are probably not going to divorce your H and cut off all contact with him so that he loses his love for you and has an opportunity to restore his love for his W. You could, but you won't and I doubt that people would recommend that given that you are now M'd to him. So, it makes it a little more challenging for your apology to sound sincere. That doesn't mean that you aren't sincere or that you don't owe the former W an apology.

I know that one of the other posters suggested that you POJA this issue with your H. I know that POJA is important, but he may be hesitant to do this if he is not ready to apologize. I'm not sure what I would do in that case because I truly believe that you do owe her an apology whether or not the H ever apologizes, and that your obligation to apologize is not erased just because your H is not ready (or unwilling) to apologize. (By the way, I do not think the apology should be a joint apology with the H -- that would not seem sincere.)

I wanted to make a quick point about the reference to the former W's new fiance. I have no idea what occurred in your situation, but try to keep in mind that most BS suffer through a lot hurtful statements from their WS and the BS is often made to feel as if he/she is not good enough for the WS. (By the way, I really believe that if an OP could see/hear how the typical WS treats his/her H/W, then the OP would run for the hills.) So, for some people it's nice to hear that the former BS is also getting her own happy ending. Her happy ending is really separate from your M.

Apologies for the long post.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Why is it that anyone with a past or present OW label is fair game to take swipes at?
<hr /></blockquote>Are you serious?

Remorseful, ex OPs may deserve *some* consideration.

Present OPs deserve nothing but contempt.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
In terms of swipes- I was refering to the
sarcastic comment by Belonging to Nowhere.<hr /></blockquote>As I said I wasnâ€™t sarcastic, just sincere (and pleased).

I donâ€™t feel your repentance.

In general - If it comes after 3 and more years, it just means you are aware of your not-good-as-it-looked choice, otherwise you wouldnâ€™t feel sorry for her, not after feel-no-remorse much earlier, but in that case you wouldnâ€™t be married to him anywayâ€¦

In particular - What I see is you feeling not safe with her talking to now-your H.
You think if you apologize now, and she forgives you, it would have a kind of meaning â€“ no, I wonâ€™t do to you what you did to meâ€¦ ?

So, it is not apology to her your issueâ€¦ focus your energy on the real oneâ€¦

Belonging to Nowhere,
You are wrong in many of the conclusion you
are drawing.
I think it is more my happy marriage that has
made me realize just what pain it would be to
lose that. During the A, the W was honestly
never really a thought. If I had allowed myself
to truly "think" about her- the A would have
never happened. I feel more repentant because
I can now truly see.
I do not feel threatened by the XW occasional
contact. true it did bother me ALOT in the
begining but as time has gone by it has become
more and more a non-issue. She has moved to the
other side of the US and appears to be happy
with all the changes in her life. Her and H
were together 12+ years- she still cares about
him- hell, deep down she may still love him.
I can't spend the rest of my M scared that something could happen between them (or with
another OW). All I can do is work towards a
strong and healthy marriage. And that's my plan.
I'm sorry you don't believe in my sincerity-
but it's true.

OK, I could believe you feel remorse (because you are afraid...)

but

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
I think it is more my happy marriage that has
made me realize just what pain it would be to
lose that.---
I feel more repentant because I can now truly see.<hr /></blockquote>Don't you see - it has so little to do with her...?

It's again!! about you, not her...

[ January 27, 2005, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]

Yes, because now being the W- I can better
understand what the pain I caused must have
been like for her.
It's not about "me" but about empathy that
I would not have understood to the extent I do
now.

I've got that... you don't want the same happened to you...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
It's not about "me" but about empathy that
I would not have understood to the extent I do
now.<hr /></blockquote>... and empathy is not the same as truly remorse...

It's always good if we learn from our mistakes... especially if we don't repeat them...

Back to the question, apology or not...
your H might say to her your wish and see what her reaction would be...

[ January 27, 2005, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]

It's been 3 years, let it go.

The OW in my case said the same exact thing of,
"During the A, the W was honestly
never really a thought. If I had allowed myself
to truly "think" about her- the A would have
never happened."

How the hell can the wife never be a thought? I don't get that statement, all it says is you were willing to ignore the obvious. But that's neither here nor there.

PP, you need to let it go. Maybe if you had done this maybe even a year, year and half after I might see the significance. But three years, your apology is irrelevant, it's to make YOU feel better. And your right, she probably does still love him or at least care about him. But that is to be expected, they were married, they obviously still talk so their "relationship" is at least civil.

Your apology is about you and therefore I feel it's not an apology!

[ January 27, 2005, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: 2B Us Again ]

What have you and your H decided to do?

Pep

Pepperband- I haven't discussed it with him
yet. I will over this weekend. POJA will be
hard- he has always had problems apologizing.
Maybe you can enlighten me on something. Why
do some of the ladies feel that this apology
is all about me? Yes, I feel I did something
tremendously wrong and it has taken me a long
while to get to that point. I want (nor expect)
anything from XW. I have nothing personal to
gain by apologizing- well, maybe some sense of
having acknowledged the wrong I commited.
Why do some people here feeling I'm wanting to
do this for all the wrong reasons. If these
reasons are wrong- what would be the "right"
ones. Do you think they would feel differently
if our affair ended and we went our separate
ways as opposed to marrying. Does that make me
seem insincere?

Why don't you try asking us, the ones who think you are doing this for the wrong reasons!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Whydo some of the ladies feel that this apology is all about me?<hr /></blockquote>Perhaps it is the way you approached this question and how you phrased your reason for wanting to do this.???

You did not say something like: "I deeply regret EVER being the OW. I want to apologize to the XW only if it will help her heal from the harm I helped inflict on her."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have nothing personal to
gain by apologizing- well, maybe some sense of
having acknowledged the wrong I commited.<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It will help YOU heal... you know it, and I know it. BUT the real question is will an apology help HER???

I donno. Neither do you. But that is the only really altruistic reason to offer an apology after this length of time.

If she appears to be happy and healed... then what is the point .... if not to help you heal?

Anywho... that's what I see.

Pep

[ January 27, 2005, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Because
a) I directed this email to Pepperband.
b) I have had several email conversations
with her in the past- she probably knows me
best (of the people on this board)
c) She doesn't feel the need to vent her own
pain by kicking other people- no matter how
subtle.
d) She can be objective and fair

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Why do some of the ladies feel that this apology is all about me? <hr /></blockquote>I can't speak for any lady other than myself, but . . . I think it is a couple of things. First, the length of time you let go by. It seems that now you might consider it a "safe" time to apologize. She seems to be moving on, "no harm no foul" kind of thing. Perhaps now you feel your apology might be met with something other than hostility?

The other thing, has it truly taken you 3 years to understand the damage your actions caused another human being? You posted earlier that now that you are happily married, you understand how devestating it would be to lose said happiness. Just as XW lost her happiness, family, and you are partially responsible for that.

So, by finally taking accountability for your actions, if that is what you are doing, are you trying to "ward" off the same thing happening to you? Because there is an ENTIRE website out there with women just like you were, feeling it is their right to be with a MM (and they have LOTS of reasons/excuses/justifications).

An aplogy this late in the game is almost insulting, to be honest, IMO. And it ALMOST seems as if you are trying to become involved in someone's life (again), who has chosen to move on.

She has moved on. The best gift you could give to this woman, IMO, is to follow what you know of her wishes ~ to not communicate with her. Work on you, work on your M, learn about relationships ~ you have plenty to keep yourself busy.

Peace to you, PP.

Spidey

???? We have emailed???

News to me!

Pep

Thanks Pep,
As you probably know from my past emails that
has also been my point of view. But even on
this string. I believe the first post on the
second page- there is a BS saying I should
apologize- regardless.
Just wanted you opinion.
And yes, if any contact from me would hurt her-
I would not wish to do it!
I may have done an awful thing- but that doesn't
make me an awful person.

Hi, Pink Paige.

I'm not Pepper either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , but I will say that it's good that you intend to POJA this with your H first.

Assuming your H agrees, I don't see anything wrong with your apologizing to the exW for causing her pain. As long as you aren't looking at it as asking for or expecting forgiveness. That would certainly be up to the exW to offer or not, IMO.

I think a short and earnest "I know I caused you pain, and I sincerely apoligize for that. I am sorry."...or something like that wouldn't be out of line. ExW may or may not respond in a positive manner. That's strictly up to her.

Lori

Pep,
By email- I mean posted back and forth on this
board.
Sorry if I don't have the computer lingo down
quite yet.

Hi Pink,

I'm a BS and I'd like to respond to you. First of all, I do think that you know and realize that what you did was wrong and that your H's XW was deeply hurt.

Second, I would tell you to not send an apology letter and to let it go. Let her be in peace. Going thru infidelity and divorce is a very painful thing and if the XW has now found peace and she's in a better place then let her have this peace. Believe your H when he says that she does not want to hear from you.

Personally, I would not want an apology from the OP, especially once I've moved on and had built myself a good life.

If you have a happy marriage now with your XMM then continue building on that and quit worrying about the past. Work on overcoming issues that led to his infidelity in the past so that you don't find yourself in the same shoes some day.

There is nothing that you can ever say or do that is going to take away the pain that this woman has felt. This is something that you are going to have to live with. But learn from it (as you are) and become a better person.

Good luck to you and hubby!

Kati

I don't think people are "kicking you" to vent our own pain. That is what you are reading into it.

Also, if you post something on a forum, you should really expect people to reply. I have had people jump in all the time on forums I have directed to someone, it's to be expected, and I appreciate the different views.

You don't like what some of us are saying because we don't agree with you, that is also to be expected. But maybe you should try and see where we are coming from, remember a lot of us are the BS.

We are just trying to be honest, and I'd think you would take what we have said into consideration as a BS, and not look at it as an attack on you.

Really look at what Spider Slayer said. Very good points are being made, and what most of us have been saying all along!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
Why do some people here feeling I'm wanting to
do this for all the wrong reasons.<hr /></blockquote>I don't think that your (YOUR) reasons are wrong...
you just use wrong words to explain yourself... e.g. repentance... among some other ones...

....continuing to think here....

I wouldn't mind hearing a sincere apology from the OW after 13 years and 10 years (since H's A's). I WOULD NOT want to hear a bunch of insincere make-me-feel-better junk from them, tho. Just an apology would be nice, TO ME.

TO ME. People are all so different. The exW may NOT appreciate hearing ANYTHING from you... we don't know, obviously. That's why POJA with the H would be important. He knows her better than you (or us <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) and he may have a strong opinion one way or the other.

anyway....just more thoughts...

Lori

Paige...

If XOW called me to apologize at this point.... I'd wonder if she was in a 12 step program and she had reached step nine!

Have you studied the 12 steps of AA?

Even if you have not (and are not an alcoholic), I recommend you do a google search of the 12 steps and take a look at how step 9 is worded and the recommended approach. This might help you reach a decision.

Take care.

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
c) She doesn't feel the need to vent her own
pain by kicking other people- no matter how
subtle.<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

(... but you feel... makes me wondering, how your vent would look like if you were BS... just curious, nothing personal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

***Do you think they would feel differently
if our affair ended and we went our separate
ways as opposed to marrying.***

Of course we would. If you had ended the A and given your OM and his BW a *chance* to heal from the damage your intrusion caused, that would be one thing.

But what you are saying is "Gee, I'm real sorry I robbed that bank, but I sure am happy with all the money I got to keep." Does that sound remorseful to you?

If you are truly sorry, leave the poor woman alone. You got what you wanted -- somebody else's husband -- so go and enjoy it. Don't rub any more salt into what will always be an open wound.
Mulan

No I haven't read anything about the "12 steps"
but will take a look- thank you.
No, not an alcoholic, but I do enjoy my pinot
noir.

I like how you hardly acknowledge anyone that isn't agreeing with what you want to do. That in itself says alot, in my honest opinion.

What would you like me to say? How would you
like me to respond?
Mulan thinks I am a thief in the night, who
stole another W husband and probably not
truly sorry for any of it- so I should just
shut up be happy that I got what I wanted and
leave the poor woman alone.
Others have said the same thing without all the
accusations and insults built in.
Aren't we all entitled to boundaries. I will
respond to any questions asked or points made
warranting a response. I'll I ask is that I
be treated with a certain level of civility.
If I treat someone with courtesy and respect
on this board- I think I have the right to
expect it in return- even if you say- Paige,
I totally disagree with you and here's why....

Pink-

I can only give you the perspective of the BS, I would view any apology from the OW as a slap in the face, especially if she ended up marrying my H.

I read that she occasionally contacts her XWH, she contacts him because she 'loves/loved' him. I am sure she felt that way during the A also, that she loved him....and most likely hated you.
(She may still hate you)

I don't doubt your intentions, I just think it's a bad idea. Don't mess with her bliss....she's apparently finally able to move on, just let her.

I am glad that you and your H are doing the MB thing to keep your marriage on track, because your relationship was founded on someone else's pain, that, to me would put it on shaky ground.

No judging here Pink.....only opinion,

-Caren

Thank you CarenMc-
I appreciate your response.

Question for you...

Have you taken anything anyone on here has said, that doesn't agree with you, into consideration? And if you have, what?

I can say, most of us on here have not been poking sticks, but trying to get you to realize how some of us as BS would feel. Plain and simple.

No, we don't know how the XW would react, but if her wish was for you to leave her alone, I personally think you should respect that wish. Maybe if she told her XH that she would like an apology from you then there is your green light.

But I personally feel you should respect her wishes!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I ask is that I be treated with a certain level of civility. If I treat someone with courtesy and respect on this board- I think I have the right to expect it in return <hr /></blockquote>I agree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Lori

Yes, I have. You would have to look at my
earlier posts- I haven't posted too long so they
would still be on my history.
I bought into alot of the standard OW thinking-
"I wasn't the one who made the vow", blah, blah,
blah.
But I think 2BeUsAgain (apologoize if I got your name wrong)if you look at those posts- you'll
also see a rip the exOW apart responses I have
received. I think for some BS here- no OW (or
exOW)will ever be anything but vilified. No
apology good enough- there always faur game to
kick about. Please read Mulan's post to me-
you honestly don't see where she was trying to
get some digs in, even though I have said nothing
that could be warranted as an attack in my
emails. And frankly I find that a bit funny since
I tend to agree with a lot of her posts- most
recently to MT3B- but with her she can STRONGLY
make her point without attacking the person- she
focussed on the MB issues.

Maybe it'd be easier for you if you read some posts as... just a W...?

"No apology good enough- there always faur game to kick about."

If your H repeats the same with someone else, what would be good enough apology for you?

It's using don't-give-us-God imagination, not insulting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm sorry BelongingToNowhere, I don't understand
what you justed type.
The only thing I believe I understood was the
comment about how I would feel if I was the BS.
I would be angry and hurt- first at H, second
at OW and probably myself (karmic retribution
and I'll that). However, I don't feel I would
be blasting at someone on this board who is
clearly not my OW and who has stated that she
regrets her choices and is trying to move forward
and be a better person. I would give this person
the same benefit of the doubt I would give a
stranger on the street. I'd assume what they
were saying was the truth until actually presented
with evidence that was contradictory.

Hi Pink,

Were you thinking about writing an apology letter or were you thinking about phoning the XW and delivering your apology in person/verbally?

Kati

I canâ€™ t speak for other people, and Iâ€™m sorry but I have to disagree with you on some of MT3B posts, yes, she can make her point w/out attacking the person, but she also has attacked the OW in the saw her picture thread. I didnâ€™t agree with it and I told her that, all that is something to make us as BS feel better. That is MY opinion, which I am entitled to. But this isnâ€™t about her!

I donâ€™t think you can take a lot of what is said to you, as a personal attack on you. For the most part you are talking with BS, and there is a lot of hurt and anger that comes from that. Points are trying to be made and when it seems that youâ€™re not even willing to listen, that gets frustrating.

A lot of your posts are I, I , I, and I believe that you need to think about her. You believe you understand the pain you have caused, until you are in that situation as the BS you have no idea, no matter how much you think you realize.

Pink, I understand you want to do good by all of this and apologizing is your way of doing it. Maybe apologizing you feel you can say, Iâ€™ve tried, I apologized, I did my part, now itâ€™s back on her. But if she wishes for no contact by you, it will only be a slap in the face as stated before.

And what you just said to Belonging, you have no idea what you would do if the table were reversed. You canâ€™t say Iâ€™d do this or Iâ€™d do that. A lot of us BS said a lot of things but when it actually happened it wasnâ€™t so easy. Itâ€™s easy to type and say what you believe youâ€™d do, but you actually do not know until it happens to you.

In response to your statement to Mulan that you have said nothing to warrant an attack from the poster here -

your very presence here is an attack to these BS's whose WH's are still in the throes of an affair, and who run the very real risk of losing their WH's to the OW.

And that you don't get that, tells me of your insincerity. You have NO understanding of what they are going through, and yet you expect them to treat you a certain way, with respect.

Had your affair ended any other way than marriage to MM, you may not be such a trigger.

You are the one needing to learn compassion in my opinion not these BS's. What they have learned at the hands of infidelity is beyond you wildest ability to understand, until you have been there.

And as you probably remember from your previous visits here, I am a FOW. Also a BS to my XMM and affair partner. And I was a BS long before that to my DD's dad.

I did write his XW a letter, but only to let her know that I understood the part I played in the destruction of her marriage, but to offer her solace that it did not work out with us either. And to let her know that I know she had NOTHING to do with her husbands infidelity, and that I was merely a continuation of her XH's inability to be faithful.

If you want "civilty" from the BS's here, then you might extend compassion first.

Your right- I can't know absolutely- she
asked how I would feel and I gave her my best
guess. Why are you critizing me for attempting
to answer her question.
I think you are confusing my other statement.
I meant it in regards to Mulan not MT3B.
Lastly, I focus my questions as "I" simply
because it is "I" posting. It's hard to focus
questions on her- because I don't know her or
her particular feelings or what she would
necessarily think. I can control me and focus on
improving me and working on me becoming a better
person.
So in that sense- yes, the questions are about
me. But isn't that the case with all of us here
(with the exception of children)
My M
My WS A
My moving forward

Thanks! :-)

It's interesting that you brought up this topic. I always blasted that if this would ever happen to me, I'd be out the door and wouldn't look back for a second. Well, when you are actually in this situation, it is like nothing you could ever imagine. It is very difficult to imagine.

I do have another question for you though. Let's say, you call her and you apologize to her and she goes off on the phone and then calls your H and tells him how much this has upset her. Since he now has a cordial and friendly relationship with her, I highly doubt that he is willing to compromise this and it may stir up a bunch of trouble for you.

Is there anyway that you can make this good with yourself without actually contacting the XW? I was thinking in terms of maybe volunterring at a women's shelter for a little while or something like that. This could be something just very personal for you and you wouldn't need to tell anyone what you are doing and why you are doing what you're doing. I hope I'm making myself clear here. ;-)

I get the feeling that you truly feel bad for what has happened, but I also sense that you could possibly open up a bad can of worms not only for the XW, but also for yourself and your husband if you contact after she specifically told you that she does not ever want to see or hear from you again.

One more thing, did you know XW in the past, were you two friends or is she unknown to you?

Kati

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2B Us Again:

And what you just said to Belonging, you have no idea what you would do if the table were reversed. You canâ€™t say Iâ€™d do this or Iâ€™d do that. A lot of us BS said a lot of things but when it actually happened it wasnâ€™t so easy. Itâ€™s easy to type and say what you believe youâ€™d do, but you actually do not know until it happens to you. [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
The only thing I believe I understood was the
comment about how I would feel if I was the BS.<hr /></blockquote>No, but what would be good enough apology for you??
(And I'd still like you to answer what you THINK it would be)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />However, I don't feel I would
be blasting at someone on this board who is
clearly not my OW.......<hr /></blockquote>You feel, but you do not know!

My point is - replies you've got are not insulting you, blasting at you, attacking you, at least not even 1% of the pain the posters went through because of THEIR OW (among other issues in their Ms)... and you mentioned earlier a word - empathy?

Hang in there Paige, your question has already been answered by Pep....POJA. As far as your desire to apologize being characterized as being "selfish" by some here, I wouldn't worry about it.

If an apology isn't "selfish" ie: truly motivated from the self in the first place, then it's not a heartfelt apology. It's not genuine or real if you don't FEEL it. You DO feel it and this is growth! Whether it's beneficial or necessary to act on your feelings is a matter between you and your H.

This is definitely an issue that you and your husband can use POJA to resolve and as was suggested earlier, he is the one who knows her best. I'm going to add that he is also the one who knows YOU best, HE is the only person who has a chance to understand your motives and intent. I'd follow his lead on this, Paige. It really is a great POJA excercise for the two of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> KB

Just extend some compassion to the BS's when they respond to you out of their pain and mistrust.

They have a lot of pain and very little to trust. Same with me. You are a trigger to me too. You posts always upset me, so I know there is something still going on inside me which I at times think has healed.

You keep coming back to this board, so there is something you need from it.

If you are like me, I needed to understand how to become the person I would become. How to heal from the things I had done, knowingly and not. I needed to understand what people who have formed lifelong marriages had that I didn't have.

What you seek from this board, I have no idea. But I will say you have as much right to be here as anyone else.

However, the BS's have as much right also to respond to you honestly with their own feelings.

Just my .02. I am trying to learn how to communicate without letting it become personal. So hope I am not coming off as offensive, as it is not my intention.

Take care,

Wow the ???s are coming faster than I can read,
relog in and answer. So my apologies to any I have
missed.
Weaver- if you have any suggestions on how I
could show better compassion without lying about
my past, please offer and I will sincerely listen.
I believe that my posts have been civil and kind.
I have not said anything to provoke- I think it's
more my past that acts as a trigger. Maybe you
could advise me here.
Kati- I have never met my H's ExW. I do perform
volunteer work. I would never approach her w/o
talking to H first (POJA) and feeling that it was
something that she wanted and felt would help her.
If that did come to pass, I would probably
write her a letter and keep it short and to the
point.
Belongs to Nowhere- I don't believe that personal
pain allows us to engage in unprovoked attacks.
I doubt highly that any individual here would
verbally attack someone on the street if the knew
they were involved in an A (I mean this in cases
where you have no direct involvement with any
of the players). I think the anonimity of the
Internet allows people freedoms that they would
not otherwise capitalize on. I think keeping
the channels of communication open and focusing
on the issues at hand is one of the purposes of
an open forum like this.
I think treating people with a degree of civility
is always the proper thing to do- hard as we
may find it at times.
I'll be gone from the Internet for a couple of
hours but will return- don't think I'm avoiding.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
I'll be gone from the Internet for a couple of
hours but will return<hr /></blockquote>... to answer my questions, finally...? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Okay, then talk this over with your husband and see what he has to say and if he's in agreement, then you could write the letter. I do think though that you both should prepare yourself for just about ANY reaction. You might be surprised, it could be positive. But then it could also open up something very painful again and cause even your H some pain again. You ought to really think about this very hard and be prepared for anything because it may not go the way you want it too.

My FWH's OW is getting married soon (not to him though - we're still together) and there had been times when I thought about contacting her fiancee and ruining everything for her. Now, the good part was that I didn't have any names, addresses etc., therefore I was not able to which was probably a good thing. I'm over this now. I've prayed long and hard to God about this and I asked him to please help me become a better person. In my own way, I have forgiven this woman and I want for her to be happy and to never have to participate in hurting another person like that again. This is even difficult for me to write, but it is something that I truly wish for her. I also wish that she will never ever have to experience the same kind of pain that I had to experience. My husband, before he went NC, had at one time told me that she had expressed interest in meeting me. I thought long and hard about it, but I declined. I just want to leave all this pain behind me and us now. What happened can never be changed and it can't be sugarcoated.

My hope is that EVERYONE has learned from this situation and if we can all come out stronger and hopefully even help others then it will make us ALL feel better.

Kati

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
 Kati- I have never met my H's ExW. I do perform
volunteer work. I would never approach her w/o
talking to H first (POJA) and feeling that it was
something that she wanted and felt would help her.
If that did come to pass, I would probably
write her a letter and keep it short and to the
point.
<hr /></blockquote>

Pink-

It is a gut reaction to a BS to fire a warning shot across your bow, knowing that you were an OW, and are now married to your A partner.

You posting is going to be a trigger for a lot of people due not only to your past, but that you are presently married to him....I think that may actually be the key.

The things they say are not directed at you personally, they feel the pain that your H's XW must have felt, and they deal with it daily....when they're talking to you, it's like they are talking to the OP in their situation.....that's my hypothesis anyway LOL

You are actually a trigger for me to, but I won't allow myself to tear you down, because
A) I don't know you or you situation
B) You are not the OW in my sitch

The break up of a marriage is the most painful thing I've ever experienced, and I say I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.....but that's not a true statement, I absolutely do wish it on my WH's OW....I have no other enemies.

That's why I stated in my last post that I thought the apology was a bad idea....if it were the OW in my sitch, I wouldn't care what she thought or how sorry she was....nothing could make me feel any differently about her.

Don't worry about other people forgiving you, as long as you've asked God for forgivness....nobody else counts.

Hope this helps!

-Caren

TPP,

Is an apology from you to his XW appropriate and called for? I think that it is.

The question is..what precisely are you apologising for? To know this is to get to the heart of the matter. What is it that you are guilty of? You may object to the harshness of Mulans post, but it is undeniably accurate, so let's look at this issue without the harshness and find the right words to give closure on the matter to all involved, to the greatest degree involved. It may be that at this time you are not yourself prepared to make an honest apology.

TPP, a sincere apology must contain no false sentiment. You have taken from her what belonged to her against her wishes [theft]. This is not the time or the place to argue that the M was it's way out..no one in this unhappy triangle will ever know what might have been the final analysis without the contribution of the affair. So what you are guilty of, is theft .

Unfortunately, it is impossible to say that you entirely regret your actions..as you now have much invested in a relationship with this man. In the truest essence of things..you are enjoying your ill gotten gain. You would not be willing to give it up in order to make amends, therefore, you are not remorsefull, merely ...sad that your present M had such an unsavory beginning? Sad that what you would like to view with fondness and attach to pleasure was truly a crime committed against another person, who suffered very much as a result? Sad, that you are finding when you look inside yourself..that you have in fact not been a good person? Not a trustworthy or ethical or kind person at all? And perhaps this is what you regret?

Based on what I am able to glean from your words..I think that this is the case..and so an apology would look something like this...

XW,

I have accepted that my actions and my choices were unethical, unkind, untrustworthy, and selfish in the extreme. I am ashamed that I behaved in this way. I realise that you have been harmed by my choices. I take full responsibility for my actions and the harm they have caused, and I apologise.

Sincerely
Your First Name
[Mrs. XXX is a rub..don't go there]

You are not able to apologise for your primary offense..because you do not regret it..but you can apologise for the behavior that you now accept to be unnacceptable from anyone who wants to live their life at the standard that you seem to want to ascend to.

It is important also..that the apology not include MORE than what I have included. XW is not responsible for your sadness..your reasons..your hopes for her future happiness as even there..an element of selfishness can not be avoided. What if she lived faithfull to her marriage until the day she died? How then would you go on? You would have no alternative but to leave the relationship or continue to be that which you would rather discard [thief, villain]. No, you profit very much from her change in status. When she remarries..your claim on this relationship has its first hint of legitimacy. Until then..marriage certificate or no..you were still nothing more than the OW.

I strongly suspect that your motive here is to remove the stain of the adultery from your M now that she is moving on..unfortunately this can never be so. Although I understand entirely the motivation to do so..your history was what it was and will never be anything else. You can not force a wrong relationship to be right. You can safeguard it..and MB principles can help with that..but your history will always be shamefull..and the two of you will have the option of lying about or enduring the shame and nothing to be done about it. This is a sad outcome for everyone. Isn't it strange that the person who will least suffer the longterm effects is XW? That she is truly free to pursue her new marriage in a way that you will never be able to? If you have done your research..I'm sure that you are aware that the odds of success in this marriage are quite bleak. May I ask why you have chosen to continue on this path..despite that it has obviously been the wrong one every step of the way?

Noodle

[i before e except after c <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ]

[ January 27, 2005, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]

She is very happy and H is happy for her- although I think he
took it a bit in the ego (her fiance is younger,
better educated and wealthier than he).

Happy endings all the way around as it appears. For those of you who do feel triggered by Paige's situation, the XW's present happiness should be a hopeful, positive example to you, the XW has moved on and is no longer in the place where you stand now.

An underlying trigger appears to be the issue of whether or not some feel Paige's marriage can be accepted as being legitimate. Her actual dilemma(to apologize or not?) appears to be ascribed with "selfish" motives by some due to the trigger. This is most likely why both sides are having having difficulty feeling *heard*. Am I correct?

Opinions on her marriage's legitimacy are completely irrelevent to REALITY. She is legally MARRIED just like the rest of us, regardless of HOW she got there or how any one of us feels about it. This is a marriage building site so tearing her marriage down on the basis of its origin is obviously not condusive to marriage building.

Paige is a married woman who is here asking how to best handle her desire to apologize to the first wife. It is commendable that she has this desire at all IMO, b/c not all will feel even remotely moved to do so. Bottom line, she has been happily and legally married for three years (despite anyone's opinions to the contrary) and any debate concerning this just deflects from the purpose of this site.

If you have done your research..I'm sure that you are aware that the odds of success in this marriage are quite bleak. May I ask why you have chosen to continue on this path..despite that it has obviously been the wrong one every step of the way?

What would your personal suggestion be to rectify this, Noodle? My vote is for Paige to strive for an MB marriage, what do you think? KB

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by knewbetter:

Opinions on her marriage's legitimacy are completely irrelevent to REALITY. She is legally MARRIED just like the rest of us, regardless of HOW she got there or how any one of us feels about it. This is a marriage building site so tearing her marriage down on the basis of its origin is obviously not condusive to marriage building.

<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep

KB,

Well, I'm honestly not sure that I have one.

Choice A..walk away.

Choice B..try and make a go of it.

I asked out of blatant curiosity actually. When one has come out of the FOG so to speak..as it seems she may have [it's about the right timeline, no?] and can look back and see that every step towards this relationship has been the wrong choice..and look ahead and see the positively appalling likelyhood of failure..yet chooses it anyway..I have to admit I wonder why, and not having experienced things as she has..I can't even begin to speculate. The closest guess I can make is a fatalistic "in for a penny, in for a pound" mentality.

As to whatever else you may have objected to..I can happily assure you that dragging her further through the mud has no appeal to me. She asked a Q and I have taken it at face value. I really think that in order to apologise sincerely, you have to know what you are apologising FOR and what motivates you to desire to apologise in the first place. I tried to read what she has written as though I had written it myself. Why would I say such and such..why now..why did I give the facts that I did, why did I consider them relevant, how did I respond to others....? If I put myself in this position..this is what I come up with..so I offer that. If I'm wrong [shrugs] it wouldn't be the first time, but without more information it's the best I can do.

I think..that as a BS, the apology I outlined would be one that I could accept.

It could go wrong very easily..it very easily could become something as insulting as "I'm sorry that I feel bad for what I did to you..not sorry I did it..sorry I feel bad about it, now that you are happy..I'd like to not feel bad anymore". I don't know too many people who would accept that apology. I think it a very worthwhile set of questions to ask oneself..and very relevant to the initial question. I have read and reread and do not see an attack. There are ugly truths in this marriage..and hiding from them is neither helpfull nor kind.

If TPP is not interested in my perspective and would rather I not partake..I am happy to oblige of course..but no harm was intended, and I really do not think any was dealt.

Noodle

Well for me it has nothing to do with the fact sheâ€™s married to her XMM now. For me it has to do with the fact that itâ€™s been three years and the XW has specifically requested not to hear from her. Yes, the XW has obviously moved on, great for her! But I donâ€™t think itâ€™s fair to her or anyone else involved, including Paige, to take a chance of dredging up all those feelings again. And itâ€™s a gamble, that much is obvious. No one knows how she would react. Why gamble with someoneâ€™s life like that especially since EVERYONE has moved on. What gives her the right to take that chance? Because she if finally acknowledging what she did was wrong. Come on, you donâ€™t mess with peopleâ€™s lives like that.

I do think it is commendable that she realizes her wrong doing. Better late than never is not always the case though. Just my two cents worth.

O.k., I'm back.
BelongingToNoWhere are you around?
Is the Question your looking for a response to
"
No, but what would be good enough apology for you??
(And I'd still like you to answer what you THINK it would be)"
I've been thinking about that and have come to
the conclusion that although there are a
number of ways to phrase it sincerely. It would
not be the exact wording but my feelings about
things at the time, where my head was at so to
speak that would be the factor in determining
my willingness to accept an apology.
Maybe not a great answer but a honest one.

Noodle-
Are you familar with the phrase
Love the sinner, hate the sin?
I hate what my H and I did to his eW. On some
level it does taint my M. But my marriage is
a legitimate one. I married him-knowing the
stats, knowing the extra work required because
I truly love him with all my heart. I'm here
laying bare truths safer left unsaid because
I want my M to endure and thrive and ensure that
I never go through the pain I see here. Even
though I often feel I deserve it.

2B,

I agree that it would almost certainly create conflict .

It's a moral position of mine, that when a person has committed an offense against another and becomes moved [genuinely] to apologise for it..that the opportunity shouldn't be denied to either.

I don't think it's always pretty..or a quick fix..I just can't quite make myself say "No, just live with it" though.

Everyone has the right to be sorry for what they have done. Also, you just never know what you might set in motion by acting on something like sincere regret and honest self appraisal.

Having "The OP" humble themself before you isn't exactly every BSs dream come true..because..we kind of want to hate them, but could you really deny forgiveness if they did? I don't think I could. I'm sure of it actually.

Your mileage may vary of course.

Noodle

Pink, your last reply to Noodle (I am unable to copy and post for some reason today) -

Now this I can understand. This is sincere... it is your truth.

And the beginnings of your marriage are VERY relevant because it is plagueing you inside. I have been there. This was probably the biggest factor in my own relationship not working out.

I could not come to terms with the fact he was married when I started seeing him (didn't know for 8 months). How our relationship started literally almost destroyed me.

It IS relevant because you must come to terms with it, so you don't destroy your marriage subconsciously.

This I understand Pink. Now I know why you are here.

I think part of maturation is a close examination of oneâ€™s life and actions. When one realizes and grasps the full extent of past wrongs, I think it is incumbent upon each of us to do our best to make amends, if possible.

Piage helped to break up a marriage. She had and affair with a married man. That man divorced his wife and married her. Obviously, she helped to cause great pain for this woman. Paige is beginning to understand the devastation that she helped cause and she wishes to somehow show this remorse, perhaps to the XW.

Pep. referred to step 9 of AA "Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.â€

This is the rub. How to make amends and would her attempt hurt the XW. That I do not know.

Perhaps she could send a letter. This letter could clearly indicate who it is from on the envelope. The XW could then make the choice to open it and read it or toss it in the trash. Maybe this is two presumptuous?

I think we are all worthy of forgiveness, but it might not be fair to ask a person that has suffered such a loss for it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Comfortably Numb:

Pep. referred to step 9 of AA "Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.â€

<hr /></blockquote>EXactly!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

***"I'm sorry that I feel bad for what I did to you..not sorry I did it..sorry I feel bad about it, now that you are happy..I'd like to not feel bad anymore".***

Bull's-eye.

Paige, if you truly are sorry for what you did to your husband's XW -- for involving yourself in her life without her consent -- then leave her alone. Don't put yourself in her life again because you want her to let you feel okay about what you did. All you will be doing, as I said, is rubbing salt into a perpetually open wound.

I am convinced you are not "apologizing" to make the XW feel better. You are doing it in hopes of making *yourself* feel better. It's an attempt to ease your conscience now that you are married and the XW has moved on.

It's also very typical WS/OP behavior. You don't have to take my word for it. There are many threads on this board where shocked BSs get messages from their WSs basically saying "tell me you're okay and we're still friends so I don't have to feel so bad about myself."

You asked, "Should I apologize to the XW of the man I had an affair with and later married?" My answer is "Good god, no. You'll only be rubbing her face in it. If you're truly sorry, leave her alone and find some other way to ease your conscience."

In the end, my opinion doesn't matter at all. You can still do whatever you like. You asked a question and many of us here gave you an answer. That's all.
Mulan

Noodle.

The offense was committed against the XW, she should be the one that says, yes, I am ready for the apology not forced upon her by receiving a letter, email, or what have you. Since there is still a â€œfriendshipâ€ between the XW and her XH, HE should be the one that cracks that door so to speak and test the waters. No way should there just be a letter that shows up in the mail one day.

I donâ€™t know what I would do if the XOW in my case asked for my forgiveness. She did ask at the time of D-Day if I hated her and would I continue to hate her. At the time the answer was an automatic yes, what a stupid question in my opinion. But time has passed and I canâ€™t say that I hate her, I donâ€™t know her. But I can say I hate her actions. If she was to apologize now, Iâ€™m not sure what Iâ€™d do or say. Like I said before, itâ€™s easy to say what you think youâ€™d do, but when it comes down to it, it usually doesnâ€™t work out that way. I do believe thought I donâ€™t think Iâ€™d be too open to it 3 years from now. To me if you were sorry, youâ€™d been sorry a long time before that. IMHO

As to whatever else you may have objected to..I can happily assure you that dragging her further through the mud has no appeal to me. She asked a Q and I have taken it at face value.

I had no objections to your post, Noodle. The purpose of the body of my post was precisely to give Paige a chance to be taken at face value which didn't appear to be happening before you came along. I was just curious about if you thought she shouldn't continue along "this path" so I asked. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Your apology explanation was very good and hopefully it will help Paige sort through her feelings.

2B, I understand what you are saying. At any rate it is a POJA issue between her and her husband in the end, not something that Paige should really decide upon on her own anyway. BS input on the reception of an apology is valuable stuff and respectful disscussion on both sides of a sticky question can help the parties "hear" each other, Anyway, that was just me, trying to put some brakes on what was looking like a steep downgrade.

Now can we ALL vote to support Paige with marriage building when she comes on site? KB

Mulan

You said

I am convinced you are not "apologizing" to make the XW feel better. You are doing it in hopes of making *yourself* feel better. It's an attempt to ease your conscience now that you are married and the XW has moved on.

Why do you think this? Please be specific.
Is there a case you can think of where the
person apologizing does not feel better- I
think it is inherent in the desire to apologize.
It does not make the apology insincere.
Would a WS apology not be accepted because it
would make him feel better too- not just the
BS.
Or are we back to the trigger factor of my
M to my affair partner and that will never make
an apology from me a sincere one. What if my H
apologized to her- would that be insincere as
long as he was still married to me?

Now can we ALL vote to support Paige with marriage building when she comes on site? KB

For me? Absolutely, now that I get her sincerity.

It took her reply to Noodle for me to understand.

As you probably already surmised KB, this thread is of intense interest to me, although I wish that part of my life was safely buried already. Apparently it is not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good luck Pink!

{{{{{Weaver}}}}}

KB,

No harm no foul..just misunderstood because your post came directly after mine..was a bit chiding..and quoted me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I didn't get the "tone" right, my bad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

2B

I guess we just disagree..I think that a person makes an apology not for the offended party to be assauged..but because it is the right thing to do when you come to terms with the fact that you HAVE made an offense.

It is ALL about the OP [offending party] and only accidentally benefits the person they apologise to.

After all, we do not repent and ask forgiveness from God for his benefit..it is for our own.

And furthermore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> to forgive someone of an offense [debt] that there is no earthly way of receiving compensation for is a great act of sacrifice on the part of the offended party. It may be a beautifull thing..but it isn't a comfortable one.

So..making apology is not for the benefit of the person who was harmed..it has more to do with the journey of the harmer . It is about coming to grips with who you have been, and who you want to be. I also think..that not going in with the assumption that your apology WILL be accepted is just par for the course.

She may well tell TPP to rot in hell..we don't know. It will raise a conflict though..and I think this sort of conflict is healthy for all involved.

Just my .02

Noodle

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by noodle:

It will raise a conflict though..and I think this sort of conflict is healthy for all involved.

Noodle <hr /></blockquote>Please explain to me how this can be healthy for all involved, especially some three years later when EVERYONE has gotten on with their lives. Dredging up the past, those feelings, those emotions, it's healthy? Can you explain that a little more!

[ January 27, 2005, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: 2B Us Again ]

TPP...

I think you forfeited your right to ask for forgiveness from your affair partner's wife when you married him. But that's for her to decide.

I don't call him "affair partner" as a shot. Regardless of whether he is now (won't go there), he was when you married him.

I don't get this - I don't see a way to be sorry for your actions but glad for their outcome. My B.S. detectors are howling over the concept.

I'm perhaps a little too close to my own situation (being divorced by my W so she can be with her AP, who is also divorcing) to have a fair perspective, but I think an apology from you would be an empty gesture.

Sorry4 is dealing with a desire to make amends for an affair, but she has turned her back completely on her AP. Maybe have a look at her thread.

GC

2b, not to answer your question to Noodle but just quickly wanted to assure you that the feelings and emotions that you have 9 months post DD are NOT the same as XW is most likely experiencing years and years later especially since she has such happy news. Really, you will not always feel the way you do right now. Carry on, Noodle, I have to dash to pick up kids. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> KB

I agree people's feelings change, mine have even changed. But who is to say that those feelings won't come back because the XOW now feels the need to apologize.

Nobody knows how the reaction is going to be, and I feel what gives Paige the right to gamble with someone's life like that. Maybe her apology will be welcomed, great all ends well. But maybe her apology isn't and it sets off a whole new set of emotions. It's just not right to mess with someone's life like that especially since it's already happened once. Granted under different circumstances but it's still the same topic.

Please don't get me wrong, I think it's great that Paige is remorseful, if I haven't made that clear, I do and I do wish her and her husband much much happiness.

2B,

Allow me to pose my answer in the form of a Q.

What makes you think she has moved on at all?

She does not speak TPPs name when speaking to her XH..treats her as a nonentity..certainly does not respect her as XHs wife [I wouldn't like my H having private chats with other women from which I am explicitly excluded..I suspect the guilt factor weighs heavily here with TPP..because if she is familiar with the MB concepts she knows this isn't a good idea regardless of how she *feels* about it.]

No, I wouldn't say she is over it at all. I would say it is a present cancer in her life. If TPP is ready to apologise..then I really believe that it is the right time for this conflict to arise. I do not think it is possible for people to examine and embrace humility in this way on their own..I think it is God led..and I think that whether XW refuses or accepts this apology, whether she feels good about it or not I think it is designed to move this sad little party further down the tracks if you know what I mean. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

In this way the conflict is a good thing..it will allow the hearts of all involved to be revealed in such a way that there is no kidding yourself..it's right in front of you.

It has been my experience in life..that much is accomplished in this way. There are more things in heaven and earth, my dear Horatio, than dreamt of in our philosophy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Noodle

[edited to add..I do not actually get the sense that she is quite there yet..I think she is still trying to apologise because she wants XW to feel better..and still has come short of understanding.

TPP, when you understand why it makes a difference that you are married to him..you will implicitly understand why your apology sounds..not insincere, but incomplete. I can try to talk you through it..but I'm not sure if you CAN understand this before your heart has been..if you will..prepared. The true answer to this Q..will impact your present life greatly and may take more than a message board and a few hours of time to be revealed. It may take longer still to be accepted.]

[ January 27, 2005, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]

Hi graycloud

To comment on

I don't get this - I don't see a way to be sorry for your actions but glad for their outcome. My B.S. detectors are howling over the concept.

I think if you look at actions the moment they
happened it would be hard to comprehend.
But take time, add some maturing and adult
realizations- and there I am.

But it's interesting- so many comments seem
to hinge on the fact that I married him.

Do you think if I had ended the R, he had
divorced his W anyway and everyone had parted
ways- that my desire to apologize would appear
more sincere? Curious as to what you think.

Noodle- you're right.
I know that according to MB principals- my
H having private calls with another W is not
a good idea and you're also right- I say nothing
about it because of the guilt I feel. I tell
myself that I wronged this woman and that in my
heart I know she is no threat to my marriage.
Talking to H on an occasional basis- maybe
six times a year is something she needs. I think
it's obvious that she has found someway to forgive her XH and needs to place the angry
feelings at my feet and I deserve that. She needs
this R with my H and if I can refrain from
putting roadblocks in the way of that. It is
the very least I can do.

TPP,

If he is YOUR H then her needs are immaterial. It is not a good idea..period. Two wrongs you know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I edited my above post with a note to you..now I think maybe I ought to have placed it below so you wouldn't miss it..have a look will you..and maybe we can talk?

Noodle

[Edited to add..because I missed that part before..TPP she is the biggest threat to your M that walks in flesh. Do you really not realize this? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ]

[ January 27, 2005, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]

Thatâ€™s a good question Noodle, but it is obvious that she has moved on some anyways. None of us can really know for sure.

I can understand why she doesnâ€™t ask about Paige and how they are doing. Do you think she really wants to hear about how wonderfully they are doing? Talk about a slap in the face. And Iâ€™m sure her experience with her XH does weigh some on her current husband, whoâ€™s past doesnâ€™t? And as much as she hates to admit it, Iâ€™m sure there will always be some insecurity in the back of her head of it happened once, is it possible for it to happen again. (I am talking about the XW, in case that wasn't clear)

PP will do what she wants and hopefully anyway and all turns out okay!

[ January 27, 2005, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: 2B Us Again ]

Paige, does he tell you about the phone calls and what they discussed?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
O.k., I'm back.
BelongingToNoWhere are you around?<hr /></blockquote>Here is Belonging to... Myself (I have to change my nick <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Is the Question your looking for a response to
"No, but what would be good enough apology for you??
(And I'd still like you to answer what you THINK it would be)"<hr /></blockquote>Yes, but (ah, my English <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ) I didn't mean what you would write to her, but (IF your H repeats the same now with someone else) what would YOU accept from your OW as apology, what she'd say that you ca accept it.

Or you maybe answered exactly this, but didn't understand...

You also said:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I hate what my H and I did to his eW. On some level it does taint my M.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe it is not good timing, maybe it should be a different thread, but I'd really like to know why/how...

Yes, he does tell me about the calls and
occasional emails. I know that the calls have
always origninated from her. I see the cell
detail and we work for the same company- I run
the dept that pays the bills- since we are
high tech quasi military- all the detail is
there. I have only asked to see a couple of emails. It usually just paragraphs about what is
new with her, questions about a family members
address and she just signs off with her name.

Noodle- can you explain how she is the biggest
threat (in the flesh) to my marriage? She
does live on the other side of the country and
is happily about to remarry. What am I obviously
missing here?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by knewbetter:
2b, not to answer your question to Noodle but just quickly wanted to assure you that the feelings and emotions that you have 9 months post DD are NOT the same as XW is most likely experiencing years and years later especially since she has such happy news. Really, you will not always feel the way you do right now.<hr /></blockquote>I don't know for others, but I exactly KNOW what will happen in my case!

I'll end up with a better, wealthier, younger, healthier (etc. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) man than my X was, and I will not wait for OW's apology at all - I will send her a very nice GIFT and write on the card a "THANK YOU!"

Eventhouh OW won't be with him at that time, she is almost not even now.

I'm not kidding.

But it's interesting- so many comments seem
to hinge on the fact that I married him.

That's because the fact that you married him is relevant! I do believe you would be in a better position to ask for forgiveness if circumstances were different.

Tell me if this is anywhere close to where you're coming from: You are not the same today as you were when the A happened. You want to conquer your defects and leave them behind, regardless of what the circumstances are now. And so maybe you have a right to ask for forgiveness.

But despite new marriages for everyone, there are signs that everybody hasn't moved all the way beyond the affair. I'm talking about the ongoing contact, and the ex's lack of acknowledgement of you. Maybe noodle's right, and that stuff needs to get aired out. Don't know... but it suggests that as different as you may feel about yourself... the past and the present, the causes and effects of everybody's circumstances, are all still connected.

Let's imagine your H telling his ex that you want to ask for her forgiveness, and asking if she would allow that. Would he do that? Could he? Can he even say your name when he speaks with her? If not, why not? And for him to get her permission on your behalf - would that be any more or less compassionate than a surprise letter from you showing up in her box?

Phew. Sorry if I'm thinking with my fingers, but this perplexes me. You want forgiveness, but have no way to make amends. It's just words.

GC

Hi BelongingToMyself-
Yes, my answer was putting myself in the role
of BW. I believe that in that situation, my
willingness to accept an apology would depend less on the words of apology and more- where my
head (as the BW) was at. Lousy answer, I know.
Did you want me to expound futher on why I hated
what H and I did to eW or why I feel in some
way it taints my marriage?

You want forgiveness, but have no way to make amends.

I know and it sucks!
But if we hadn't married, and they divorced OR
even if they stayed together- I still would
have no gesture available to me.
ANd with the rest of your post- yes, you are
seeing where I am coming from.
Thanks!

So if he tells you everything, when she calls, about the emails, willing to let you see the emails, then why is she a threat? I don't get this. It shouldn't be a problem if you trust your H.

They were married, there will always be that connection. That is my opinion anyways.

TTP,

What you are missing, with regard to his XW..is that they have a history of INTIMACY.

He has been just every bit as intimate with her as he is with you..and he has also been in love with her.

If you are familiar with the MB concepts..then you know JUST how you were able to begin an affair with him..and as such..you should realize that with such contact the door is wide open for the two of them to begin to fill those needs very easily WHEN and not if your M hits the rocks [and it will, they all do..and yours is most extremely likely to fail..you can not overlook this...]

More divorced people reconcile and have successfull marriages than do those who married as a result of an affair. Much more. So do not be in denial and assume that because his feelings of affection and romance are not currently with her that she is no threat to you..they very well could be in the future..and vice versa.

His conversations are not a good plan with someone who he does not share this history with..with his XW... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Noodle

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
[QB]...where my head (as the BW) was at. Lousy answer, I know.<hr /></blockquote>Yet, somehow I got it (now), thanks.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Did you want me to expound futher on why I hated what H and I did to eW or why I feel in some way it taints my marriage?<hr /></blockquote>I assume why you hated... just want to know (more) about why it taints your M, of course if you don't mind talking about that...

[ January 27, 2005, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]

Do you all really think the XW wants to hear about how wonderful their marriage is. I mean my god. I would think even if you've gotten over it, that would be hard to hear.

2B, I'm not finding where Paige wants to tell XW how wonderful her marriage is. I thought we are disscussing apologies for wrongs done here. KB

I was just responding to the what was stated in the thread from Paige about how the XW was having private phone calls with the husband, how the XW doesn't ask about Paige or H and how they are doing. To me that is pretty obvious why she doesn't.

?????

2BUSAgain,
I don't see XW contact as a big problem. I'm
not thrilled about it but I do trust my H.
He is not a serial cheater, nor am I.

Noodle- although I know the chance for problems
is greater given how my marriage started- I'm
willing to do the work to ensure that we stay
one of the rare exceptions.

Know the tainted feeling ?
I feel less happy about a marriage that could
have only happened at the price of anothers
womans pain (I'm only referring to the
circumstances of my A- not what my H could
have done differently). I worry that I will
let my guilt or that my H will let his guilt
become a wedge in our marriage. Our own dirty
little secret- some people know- most don't.
Is our marriage less a marriage- probably not -
but it's flowering will always have a tinge of
guilt to its perfume.

Actually I'm not surprised she doesn't ask about
me. But normally in conversation with someone
you would ask- how are you? or what's new?
or even ask about how work is. I just find it
odd that she doesn't ask H any of those type
questions.

I dunno, if I were XW and I WASN't over him I would definitely be asking how things were going. We all know perfectly well that things don't go smoothly ALL the time and the minute things were rocky, I could slip in there and be his shoulder to cry on and from there..... See what I mean? ! If I didn't care, I just wouldn't ask.

She may flat out not care at this point and anyway why would she anyway, she's done well for herself. KB

Good Point Knewbetter! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ January 27, 2005, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: 2B Us Again ]

You're right- but then again it makes me wonder
why she calls at all. I know they shared 12
years together but she has a new man to share the
day to day with and that does explain why the
calls have diminshed greatly.

Do you think if I had ended the R, he had divorced his W anyway and everyone had parted ways- that my desire to apologize would appear more sincere

No question. You would have been coming from a different place, with a different motive. Right now you motive is to try to untaint your marrieage and alleviate your own guilt.

This scenerio was mine, and my apology was written to her because I literally could not get her out of my mind. I was dying with the knowledge that I had caused another woman pain. I wanted/needed her to know, that it was never her. She was not psycho, undesirable, unable to keep her man. I needed her to know that our time together (his and mine, was pure hell). I needed to bring her peace. It might also interest you to know that I never mailed it as I was never able to find an address. Even "he" doesn't know where she is now.

Pink, do yourself a favor. Forget the apology. It has no bearing. You stole her husband from her, you are not to be forgiven by her. Concentrate instead on your marriage, and that which you could become. Use this to help others. Forgive yourself and your husband, move on.
Have a great marriage and know that love conquers all. It really does. He is your husband now. Concentrate on him and not the past.

[ January 27, 2005, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]

Actually I'm not surprised she doesn't ask about
me. But normally in conversation with someone
you would ask- how are you? or what's new?

But it isn't a NORMAL conversation. I can't imagine ever in my life asking my ex how OW is, and they are not married. And he is important to me still. Ex-h betrayed my marriage- but OW stole from me too. I was intimate and loving toward ex- I didn't know OW from Adam. Why would you think ex-w would ask about you??? You say you aren't surprised, then you follow it up with but normally- that's an oxymoron if you ask me.

weaver,
what happened to you and you H?

adgirl48-
not ask about me- ask about him. Ask how
he is? what's new with him? how's his work
going?

I called off our wedding and asked him to leave. We had been living together for two years at that point.

He maintains to this day he would have divorced her anyway, and maybe he would have.

But I don't trust him. I couldn't get over it.

Don't make the mistakes I (and he) did.

Find peace with it within yourself, and talk to your husband about your shame and guilt, let him talk about his. Then move on incorporating the MB principles and be happy.

The past is really an illusion you know. All you have is now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

TPP,

I really think..that you are minimizing the effect.

You are aware..that your odds are roughly less than 3% of making it..right?

If a patient is given those odds..we dust off the will just to be ready WHEN it happens, you know?

So..I'd say that if you are truly willing to take a look at the excrutiating devastation the circumstances surrounding your relationship have on even your potential future..then you will realize that a most extraordinary set of precautions are in order.

I understand the desire to "normalize"..but that has to do with denial..and if you are getting ready to deal with yourself and your participation in this affair..then denial has no place.

Have the two of you sought intense IC and MC to aid you?

If you are just trying to feel this one out on your own..I could probably stick a fork in you now and just save you the trouble <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

These issues will have to be really..embraced, and dealt with..not fleetingly acknowledged in passing [while moving on as quickly as possible].

Right now your response [and of course..that's all I have] has a bit of a "whistling past the graveyard" quality to it [with..perhaps a hint of fog..I hope I am wrong].

Example? You are not threatened by your Hs already inappropriate contact with XW because you trust him . My dear..I nearly spit a mouthfull of tea all over this screen at that. He had an affair with you . Thus far his success rate is ZERO as far as finding an acceptable approach to marital conflict.

To bring this back on topic..yes..I think an apology is in order..but any apology you can make just yet..is not complete..and it may never be. There is a particular alteration in the thought patterns of those in an affair..and it is possible, that despite having a marriage certificate, the "affair" has not ended yet. The ...quality of what you are saying to me somehow carries the addiction/fantasy element.

I really think that IC at the very least would be very helpfull..is that an option?

Noodle

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
 adgirl48-
not ask about me- ask about him. Ask how
he is? what's new with him? how's his work
going? <hr /></blockquote>Ok well I will give you that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

How are you doing now weaver? I'm glad I found
you on the board today.
Maybe there is a reason- maybe you're here to
help me start a journey and I'm here to help you
let go of something you've been holding onto too
long?
I hope we become friends.
thepinkpaige2002@yahoo.com

Actually noodle we have been- with a licensed
counseler/church deacon.
You want to feel REALLY bad- imagine having to
confess all to a priest.
Maybe this is all hitting me because after much
counseling and going through the annulment process. Not his last M, the prior one. Believe
me I had to endure some tough questions there-
we are marrying in the Catholic Church this
weekend. Just a small service- family and
friends. This is significant for me- despite my
sin- this really means something.
And H did this for me. He, although raised
Catholic is basically an agnostic- the writing,
the confession, the hearings, the semi-public
display of our mistakes- all so I 9and my family)
could feel better about this marriage.
Funny, I'm sitting hear crying never acknowledging before now how all this has made
me feel.

How has it made you feel?

TPP, I agree with the beautiful (saw your photo today!) weaver.

As a consequence of your actions, you're in a circumstance where you have no means to earn this woman's forgiveness, and I believe that real forgiveness must be earned before it can be granted, especially when the injury is this severe.

You might have to accept, for now, that this is the way things are. No matter how redeemed you become by forgiving yourself, it is up to the person you hurt to decide if she will excuse you. I don't think now is the time to ask her for this. And she may choose instead to stay as far from you as she can.

I like analogies. I feel like you're sitting on a pile of gold you stole, and you're sorry for stealing it, and you swear you'll never do it again. And since its rightful owner doesn't want it back, you may as well keep it. Why should anyone suffer needlessly? Hasn't there been enough of that? What's the use of your soul being held captive?

I'm so sorry for this spiritual bind you've put yourself in. Thinking about how that must sometimes feel for you makes me feel awful. Makes me want to cry. But we all suffer, don't we?

At what point in everything did you begin to feel you'd done something wrong?

GC

I feel like I have done all I can do and even
done all my faith has required of me.

Yet, I still feel soiled.

If I may ask..what is your faith..and what does it require?

I wrote about it above- Catholic.

Did I miss something, I thought you two were already married?

Well, that was bracing! I just read your other post. You're not married to him yet.

But you're about to marry him?

My heavens.

GC

I took it as you are renewing your vows.
If you aren't married, by all means, stop the wedding while you are having these thoughts!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
 In case you
have forgotten me- I am married to my XMM.
<hr /></blockquote>you said you were married?

Oh, sorry. Didn't make the connection..not all churches require that you be a member of THAT particular sect to married there.

OK..so I have a few questions about this, because I am trying to lay a foundation in my mind on which to build my opinion before I advise any further.

If you are a Catholic..and therefore a Christian how are you bringing resolve to the issues of

1 His unbelief. You are being yoked with an unbeliever..this is directly contrary to scripture. Was he honest with the priests that he is not a believer..or did he lie his way through it to get the desired result?

2 The adulterous nature of the marriage

3 The fact that it is his 3rd marriage

4 TPP..Do you think that maybe you have not made the right decision in this marriage? Do you believe that God smiles on it..does it have his blessing in your opinion?

If you came to the conclusion that it did not..how would you feel about it?

What leads you to believe that it might?

Noodle

We are married- it was a civil ceremony
attended by (but not perfomedby) the deacon. We could not marry
in the Catholic Church at that time. We are
now free to (annulment of 1st marriage, 2nd (one
involving the A) was already declared invalid,
much counseling and much confession.
This weekend we are re-marrying in the Catholic
Church- sorry for the confusion.

Got your email addy Pink.

Don't call off your church wedding. You have either been civicly (sp) or common law married all this time. Don't go down the path of destruction because of a mistake you made in the past. This makes no sense.

YOU ARE NOT SOILED! You made a mistake in judgement as did all the WS on this board.

I'll email you after the festivities this weekend when things calm down.

You are getting responses from the best here.

Gray, thanks for the compliment!

1 His unbelief. You are being yoked with an unbeliever..this is directly contrary to scripture. Was he honest with the priests that he is not a believer..or did he lie his way through it to get the desired result?

Yes he knows- the church laws have changed greatly- all he needs to acknowledge is respect
for my beliefs and they encourage him to raise
any children we have Catholic. This is not a
problem for him. It should be noted that I am
40, he is 58.

2 The adulterous nature of the marriage

Yes, it is a sin- something we both needed to
come clean about and ask for forgiveness through
confession. This was performed. Much of the
counseling we received was about this.

3 The fact that it is his 3rd marriage

Yes, also addressed in counseling and heavy
questioning by tribunal in granting of annulment.
They wanted to make sure he was 100% on
board with the commitment required. He made one
mistake during his 2nd marriage with me. He
has shown himself to be honest in this respect.

4 TPP..Do you think that maybe you have not made the right decision in this marriage? Do you believe that God smiles on it..does it have his blessing in your opinion?

Yes, I believe I made the right decision. My fear
in part- is I don't know if God smiles on this.
I try to remind myself that he loves and wants
the best for me and forgives sin and blesses
those that seek with true heart his blessings

TPP,

With a heavy heart I will tell you, that I think you are making a mistake..and that somewhere inside..I think you know it.

I think that it is significant that you came here today..and I think that it is significant that we "met" because I have a strong sense that I "should" tell you what I am about to say even though..to be really honest..I don't want to. I'd rather disregard your post or just give you "best of luck" responses.

I know that you have said that God wants what is best for you..and I agree with this completely..but I really believe that you are trying to make what you want be what is best for you..and in this instance I do not think that this is so. I think that you are not really listening..and are hiding behind being able to juuuust scootch by church law rather than saying..what can be ..really..celebrated? What can we paint on the horizon with eagerness and integrity? I think that you and I both know that this marriage is NOT a cause for celebration..and..TPP..I think you are cheating yourself out of something else because you are afraid to let this go. I think that there is something worth celebrating waiting for you..and with this action you may be choosing not to take it.

I think a lot of the "soiled" feelings come from the strong likelyhood that you are still resisting Gods will and insisting on your own will being done. This is a clear indication that true repentance has not occurred..only feelings of guilt that you want to be rid of without actually turning away from what you have done.

And..and I think you will regret this. As time goes by, I really think that you will look back on this and wish that you had chosen differently.

I think that GC was quite astute in his analogy..that you stole a pile of gold..and that you felt so bad that you promised never to do it again..and the other person now doesn't want it back..so what is a woman to do with all of this wealth?....and in this case..I think the answer is to step away from it also and regain your honor in this world. Then..go and apologise to his wife and truly wash your hands of this sickness.

I am so sorry that I just can not support you in making a choice that I really believe will bring further destruction into your life..and into your faith.

I will leave your thread..as this is very unsolicited and surely most unwelcome..but I would not be able to sleep tonight if I told you differently or did not speak at all.

You do have my best wishes in life

Noodle

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> follow through with your Catholic ceremony as planned ... it is obviously very important to you. You have earned this following the church's prescribed steps to reconciliation.

I think your H should put the *kabosh* on his XW's phone call updates. I do not see how this continued contact between them benefits YOUR marriage or her FUTURE marriage .(since there are no children involved)

If you think you "owe it to XW" .... I beg to differ. If it makes you uncomfortable (it would me) then it needs to be addressed as a problem and work toward an agreeable solution with your H.

Since you asked <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep

I have been following this thread since the beginning with interest and pink I have posted to you long ago when you first came here.I still stand by my feeling that your relationship was born out of the pain and suffering of other's and it was a sin.Time does not erase this and just because the ex W now(according to you but who really knows)is supposedly going to get remarried and is so "happy" doesn't give you the green light to go ahead with this next marriage.

I am sorry, I know you will probably disagree with this as will other's here but I truly do not believe a marriage should be taking place between you two.Some say let bygones be bygones and everyone has "moved on" anyway so let's all just forget what happened but there will always be a layer of hypocrsiy to whatever you and this man,already married twice,will try to achieve.You help to destroy one marriage in order to obtain your own.You destroy vows of one marriage in order to obtain the same.You covet/take what was not yours and yet want the same that you robbed another woman of.You both are trying to annul and invalidate the very same that you want to have for yourself:marriage.I find this horrible.

The only way I see you being clear of sin in a relationship is to be with another man who was not a co-conspirator in adultery.He("fiance") is trustworthy to you? What makes you think the third time is the charm? Why is he still talking to his ex wife? Why is she calling if she is so happyily engaged elswhere? They have no children correct? He's already begun with questionable behavior and who knows if it is appropriate.Afterall,some men and women do stay in touch after a D from time to time but many don't.How can you trust this man who was untrustworthy? Trust is earned and you both have not been together long enough to have that solid foundation and it's flawed anyway by the past.He never worked on his previous marriage,he had an affair with you,and was divorced months later.You expect to have children with this man who is nearly 60 years old? How will that fair for the/any children? I see a lot of work trying to go into an already faulted beginning,in many ways.

I don't mean to come across as mean but I have very strong feelings about this kind of situation and I have to admit there aren't many like you actually here talking about it.We spend so much time here talking about how bad adultery is and how marriages born from affairs are statistically failed ones in most cases,that they are born from pain and suffering and selfishness and to hear some people here forgetting that and actually supporting you in this new endeavor upsets me,still.Asking for forgiveness from God is your own business and receiving it is God's will,not mine,but like many other scenarios,I don't see an honest,loving,respectful and decent beginning here.It truly makes me curious why you came back after all this time asking about the apology.I too think that it's to ease a guilty soul as you try to make a go of this new attempted marriage.Maybe I am wrong but things you have said in the past and here on this thread make me wonder.

Just my opinion here.

O

O~~~

They've been legally married for awhile already. She is talking about a church ceremony, but they ARE married.

Are you suggesting they should divorce? .... Or should they attempt to have a miserable life together as their punishment???

Pep

[ January 28, 2005, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Ugh.I thought they weren't LEGALLY yet? I must have misread something.I have to go back now and reread.I thought she is getting married THIS weekend no?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Octobergirl:
 Ugh.I thought they weren't LEGALLY yet? I must have misread something.I have to go back now and reread.I thought she is getting married THIS weekend no? <hr /></blockquote>YES they are! ... they are celebrating in the Church this weekend ... but they have been legally married for (? can't remember exactly ?) somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 years or so.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Ok,Civil ceremony already done.CHURCH ceremony this weekend.

I don't know Pep.I think this came up before with someone else and not a few of the people here were suggesting D.Personally,I just give my opinions and that's all I can do.People are going to do what they want despite that.I don't think at this point divorcing or staying together much matters.I just would not be in pinks position.It is not the way I would begin a marriage and even though she already is,I don't have hope or support for it.The way in which the marriage was obtained is not appropriate to me.I wouldn't want to live with that in my heart and soul,no matter how many people I asked forgiveness from or even God.So they can try to make it the best MB marriage <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> they want but to me it will always be stained.

O~~~~

It took me awhile to wrap my mind around this situation as well.

What I finally arrived at was this

I take any emotional feelings about their marriage out of the equation.

I accept the FACT that theirs is indeed a marriage.

I stop judging their marriage on anything but where they are right now.

That's how I needed to approach this in order to arrive in a mental space where I could be helpful to her.

In fact, I have used this thinking model before on MB, but in different circumstances. There are other legal marriages on MB that I emotionally detest for other reasons. But If I am to be helpful, I have to take myself out of my feelings and simply adjust my thoughts and my advice to the facts at hand.

Pep

[ January 28, 2005, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Octobergirl:
but to me it will always be stained. <hr /></blockquote>Like my marriage is stained by infidelity? maybe...

This serves the greater good how? To what benifit?

Pep

I see how you feel but I feel differently.Yes they may be married already.But,to me the sanctity of marriage means so much to me that to consider beginning in a relationship with someone who most obviously did and does not hold this(based on what I am hearing) as close to his heart or believe in I just have a hard time with considering.Otherwise why is he on his third marriage now,why did he commit adultery,a sin in the Catholic/christian churches,not work on his previous marriage or at least this last one before he had the affair,and now portend to "believe" in it again by going down the asile one more time.Just what DOES this man think about marriage I wonder?

You say you don't judge their marriage but where they are now but I have a problem with that because to me that can lead us to accept behaviors that shouldn't be acceptable in this society."judging" a marriage as is isn't always the best indicator of what will be.We can take the emotion out and deal with what is but marriage has a lot of emotion.It's undeniable.

I am not really sure what it is exactly pink wants from us.She admits to being a TOW member and that too bother's me.I just refuse,refuse to accept this on any level.I will not ever give it credence,marriage license or not.It's the height of hypocrisy about a very sentimental and holy act/joining.I will feel the same way 20 years from now.People around me might change and be accepting but I will never allow myself that.Of all the beautiful things in marriage I believe in and upheld,marriage and reltaionships born in the milieu of adultery have no place being IMO.

In stained I meant that if your FWH left you pep and married the OW.Stained by all the pain and suffering of the adultery which destroyed the marriage and family.Your marriage and family was saved and you have recovery.I am not talking about that.

Pinks original question was about an apology.Aside from it being a questionable reason to be here in my mind,I don't feel that an apology would be welcomed had I been the exW.I would not want to hear one word from this woman."I just called/e-mailed to say I am sorry about all I have done to you but by the way,I am having a grand time being your exH's new wife".Argh.Not that she would actually say this but the painful idea is right there.That's how I would take it anyway.

O

edited to add: if you want to continue this discussion on another thread,that would be ok with me but I feel funny about being here now.This thread was addressed to you so I feel I should get off.

[ January 28, 2005, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]

Wow...I love it when a debate heats up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Everyone has such good points.

I agree with Pep in that you have to take the emotional reaction out of it, I said in a previous post, her presence here is a trigger for a lot of people...and to some degree it is to me.

I mean, hind sight is 20/20, I'm sure that Pink probably doesn't think that her marriage occurred under an ideal set of circumstances.

I'm sure she knows that the odds of the marriage surviving are not in her favor, and yet, she is married, and has made the steps to be forgiven by God....I really don't know what more you can ask of the woman.

I don't know, but I can honestly say that I don't think an apology will benefit the XW...I really don't. I think it will send her world, she just started calming down, back into upheaval.....it's going to dredge up stuff that she thought she buried....and I dunno, it may cause her engagement to de-rail, the woman is going to be FURIOUS, if that happens, as the saying goes "Screw me once shame on me, screw me twice...shame on you".

Don't add insult to injury Pink.

Well that's my .02, LOL, take it for what it's worth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-Caren

O~~~

Pink and I have some history of conversations previously (years ago) where I gave her my honest opinion that she was still functioning with the "OW mentality" when it comes to marriage.

I see a change in her, something I think is worthy of my respect for her effort to make the self-adjustments necessary to have a real MB marriage, as opposed to a marriage more akin to the spirit of an OW married to a MM.... if you see what I mean.

Pep

[ January 28, 2005, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

TPP

In response to your original question (10 pages ago), why haven't you tried the most obvious method of deciding what to do - i.e to put yourself in the XW's shoes?

Imagine that your marriage continues for a fair few years, and then your H tells you that he's been seeing someone else. That he loves her. And then leaves you.

Would you like to hear from the OW at that point? What would you like to hear? THINK.

And then suppose that a few years go by. Your H divorces you, marries the OW, and you gradually rebuild yourself and find a way through the pain and devastation. And meet someone else, and make yourself take the risk again.

Would you like to hear from the OW at that point? What would you like to hear? THINK.

I'm not suggesting one thing or another. I'm simply asking yourself to empathise with another woman's experience.

Or, are you perhaps doing this - subconsciously? Are you at some level fearful that what happened to your H's XW is what may happen to you?

You know what they say about a man who marries a mistress creating a vacancy?

TogetherAlone