TPP...

I think you forfeited your right to ask for forgiveness from your affair partner's wife when you married him. But that's for her to decide.

I don't call him "affair partner" as a shot. Regardless of whether he is now (won't go there), he was when you married him.

I don't get this - I don't see a way to be sorry for your actions but glad for their outcome. My B.S. detectors are howling over the concept.

I'm perhaps a little too close to my own situation (being divorced by my W so she can be with her AP, who is also divorcing) to have a fair perspective, but I think an apology from you would be an empty gesture.

Sorry4 is dealing with a desire to make amends for an affair, but she has turned her back completely on her AP. Maybe have a look at her thread.

GC

2b, not to answer your question to Noodle but just quickly wanted to assure you that the feelings and emotions that you have 9 months post DD are NOT the same as XW is most likely experiencing years and years later especially since she has such happy news. Really, you will not always feel the way you do right now. Carry on, Noodle, I have to dash to pick up kids. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> KB

I agree people's feelings change, mine have even changed. But who is to say that those feelings won't come back because the XOW now feels the need to apologize.

Nobody knows how the reaction is going to be, and I feel what gives Paige the right to gamble with someone's life like that. Maybe her apology will be welcomed, great all ends well. But maybe her apology isn't and it sets off a whole new set of emotions. It's just not right to mess with someone's life like that especially since it's already happened once. Granted under different circumstances but it's still the same topic.

Please don't get me wrong, I think it's great that Paige is remorseful, if I haven't made that clear, I do and I do wish her and her husband much much happiness.

2B,

Allow me to pose my answer in the form of a Q.

What makes you think she has moved on at all?

She does not speak TPPs name when speaking to her XH..treats her as a nonentity..certainly does not respect her as XHs wife [I wouldn't like my H having private chats with other women from which I am explicitly excluded..I suspect the guilt factor weighs heavily here with TPP..because if she is familiar with the MB concepts she knows this isn't a good idea regardless of how she *feels* about it.]

No, I wouldn't say she is over it at all. I would say it is a present cancer in her life. If TPP is ready to apologise..then I really believe that it is the right time for this conflict to arise. I do not think it is possible for people to examine and embrace humility in this way on their own..I think it is God led..and I think that whether XW refuses or accepts this apology, whether she feels good about it or not I think it is designed to move this sad little party further down the tracks if you know what I mean. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

In this way the conflict is a good thing..it will allow the hearts of all involved to be revealed in such a way that there is no kidding yourself..it's right in front of you.

It has been my experience in life..that much is accomplished in this way. There are more things in heaven and earth, my dear Horatio, than dreamt of in our philosophy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Noodle

[edited to add..I do not actually get the sense that she is quite there yet..I think she is still trying to apologise because she wants XW to feel better..and still has come short of understanding.

TPP, when you understand why it makes a difference that you are married to him..you will implicitly understand why your apology sounds..not insincere, but incomplete. I can try to talk you through it..but I'm not sure if you CAN understand this before your heart has been..if you will..prepared. The true answer to this Q..will impact your present life greatly and may take more than a message board and a few hours of time to be revealed. It may take longer still to be accepted.]

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

Hi graycloud

To comment on

I don't get this - I don't see a way to be sorry for your actions but glad for their outcome. My B.S. detectors are howling over the concept.

I think if you look at actions the moment they
happened it would be hard to comprehend.
But take time, add some maturing and adult
realizations- and there I am.

But it's interesting- so many comments seem
to hinge on the fact that I married him.

Do you think if I had ended the R, he had
divorced his W anyway and everyone had parted
ways- that my desire to apologize would appear
more sincere? Curious as to what you think.

Noodle- you're right.
I know that according to MB principals- my
H having private calls with another W is not
a good idea and you're also right- I say nothing
about it because of the guilt I feel. I tell
myself that I wronged this woman and that in my
heart I know she is no threat to my marriage.
Talking to H on an occasional basis- maybe
six times a year is something she needs. I think
it's obvious that she has found someway to forgive her XH and needs to place the angry
feelings at my feet and I deserve that. She needs
this R with my H and if I can refrain from
putting roadblocks in the way of that. It is
the very least I can do.

TPP,

If he is YOUR H then her needs are immaterial. It is not a good idea..period. Two wrongs you know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I edited my above post with a note to you..now I think maybe I ought to have placed it below so you wouldn't miss it..have a look will you..and maybe we can talk?

Noodle

[Edited to add..because I missed that part before..TPP she is the biggest threat to your M that walks in flesh. Do you really not realize this? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ]

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

That’s a good question Noodle, but it is obvious that she has moved on some anyways. None of us can really know for sure.

I can understand why she doesn’t ask about Paige and how they are doing. Do you think she really wants to hear about how wonderfully they are doing? Talk about a slap in the face. And I’m sure her experience with her XH does weigh some on her current husband, who’s past doesn’t? And as much as she hates to admit it, I’m sure there will always be some insecurity in the back of her head of it happened once, is it possible for it to happen again. (I am talking about the XW, in case that wasn't clear)

PP will do what she wants and hopefully anyway and all turns out okay!

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: 2B Us Again ]</small>

Paige, does he tell you about the phone calls and what they discussed?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
O.k., I'm back.
BelongingToNoWhere are you around?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is Belonging to... Myself (I have to change my nick <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is the Question your looking for a response to
"No, but what would be good enough apology for you??
(And I'd still like you to answer what you THINK it would be)"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, but (ah, my English <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ) I didn't mean what you would write to her, but (IF your H repeats the same now with someone else) what would YOU accept from your OW as apology, what she'd say that you ca accept it.

Or you maybe answered exactly this, but didn't understand...


You also said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hate what my H and I did to his eW. On some level it does taint my M.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe it is not good timing, maybe it should be a different thread, but I'd really like to know why/how...

Yes, he does tell me about the calls and
occasional emails. I know that the calls have
always origninated from her. I see the cell
detail and we work for the same company- I run
the dept that pays the bills- since we are
high tech quasi military- all the detail is
there. I have only asked to see a couple of emails. It usually just paragraphs about what is
new with her, questions about a family members
address and she just signs off with her name.

Noodle- can you explain how she is the biggest
threat (in the flesh) to my marriage? She
does live on the other side of the country and
is happily about to remarry. What am I obviously
missing here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by knewbetter:
2b, not to answer your question to Noodle but just quickly wanted to assure you that the feelings and emotions that you have 9 months post DD are NOT the same as XW is most likely experiencing years and years later especially since she has such happy news. Really, you will not always feel the way you do right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know for others, but I exactly KNOW what will happen in my case!

I'll end up with a better, wealthier, younger, healthier (etc. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) man than my X was, and I will not wait for OW's apology at all - I will send her a very nice GIFT and write on the card a "THANK YOU!"

Eventhouh OW won't be with him at that time, she is almost not even now.


I'm not kidding.

But it's interesting- so many comments seem
to hinge on the fact that I married him.

That's because the fact that you married him is relevant! I do believe you would be in a better position to ask for forgiveness if circumstances were different.

Tell me if this is anywhere close to where you're coming from: You are not the same today as you were when the A happened. You want to conquer your defects and leave them behind, regardless of what the circumstances are now. And so maybe you have a right to ask for forgiveness.

But despite new marriages for everyone, there are signs that everybody hasn't moved all the way beyond the affair. I'm talking about the ongoing contact, and the ex's lack of acknowledgement of you. Maybe noodle's right, and that stuff needs to get aired out. Don't know... but it suggests that as different as you may feel about yourself... the past and the present, the causes and effects of everybody's circumstances, are all still connected.

Let's imagine your H telling his ex that you want to ask for her forgiveness, and asking if she would allow that. Would he do that? Could he? Can he even say your name when he speaks with her? If not, why not? And for him to get her permission on your behalf - would that be any more or less compassionate than a surprise letter from you showing up in her box?

Phew. Sorry if I'm thinking with my fingers, but this perplexes me. You want forgiveness, but have no way to make amends. It's just words.

GC

Hi BelongingToMyself-
Yes, my answer was putting myself in the role
of BW. I believe that in that situation, my
willingness to accept an apology would depend less on the words of apology and more- where my
head (as the BW) was at. Lousy answer, I know.
Did you want me to expound futher on why I hated
what H and I did to eW or why I feel in some
way it taints my marriage?

You want forgiveness, but have no way to make amends.

I know and it sucks!
But if we hadn't married, and they divorced OR
even if they stayed together- I still would
have no gesture available to me.
ANd with the rest of your post- yes, you are
seeing where I am coming from.
Thanks!

So if he tells you everything, when she calls, about the emails, willing to let you see the emails, then why is she a threat? I don't get this. It shouldn't be a problem if you trust your H.

They were married, there will always be that connection. That is my opinion anyways.

TTP,

What you are missing, with regard to his XW..is that they have a history of INTIMACY.

He has been just every bit as intimate with her as he is with you..and he has also been in love with her.

If you are familiar with the MB concepts..then you know JUST how you were able to begin an affair with him..and as such..you should realize that with such contact the door is wide open for the two of them to begin to fill those needs very easily WHEN and not if your M hits the rocks [and it will, they all do..and yours is most extremely likely to fail..you can not overlook this...]

More divorced people reconcile and have successfull marriages than do those who married as a result of an affair. Much more. So do not be in denial and assume that because his feelings of affection and romance are not currently with her that she is no threat to you..they very well could be in the future..and vice versa.

His conversations are not a good plan with someone who he does not share this history with..with his XW... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by The Pink Paige:
[QB]...where my head (as the BW) was at. Lousy answer, I know.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yet, somehow I got it (now), thanks.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you want me to expound futher on why I hated what H and I did to eW or why I feel in some way it taints my marriage?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I assume why you hated... just want to know (more) about why it taints your M, of course if you don't mind talking about that...

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]</small>

Do you all really think the XW wants to hear about how wonderful their marriage is. I mean my god. I would think even if you've gotten over it, that would be hard to hear.

2B, I'm not finding where Paige wants to tell XW how wonderful her marriage is. I thought we are disscussing apologies for wrongs done here. KB