I was reading another post here on the site so realize that this was intended to be a reply to him and that thread... it was recommended by another member to repost it with a new thread for more responses... I have read several threads and articles on this site but none really address the "if you were never supposed to get married" type of stuff... so here it is...


MarkNY...

This is my first post... I just found this site yesterday... I really needed it... our stories sound so much alike... I have been married 12 years and have three kids b6, b4, g<1... my wife started hanging out with a younger guy from our church... were have always been in youth ministry/college ministry so no big deal right... he became a friend of the family and now they hang out several times a week... About a year ago I started to question their relationship... telling her that I was uncomfortable... and she reacted with passion that they were just friends and we talked it through... she said I was just paranoid and that nothing was going on... he was just a good friend... she too had distanced herself from friends other than him... I struggled with their friendship and noticed that we were growing apart... we saw a counselor a few times and he said the male friend had to go... she then refused and counseling stopped... she tried to be more loving to me for a while and then it went to the same ole stuff... I finally came across a few emails and letter that had questionable stuff in them... of course you could read it two different ways and she always tried to change my mind... and she would get emotional and say I was taking her only friend in the world away... so I would roll over and let it continue... well as of thanksgiving this year she told me that she finally got encouragement from this friend and the guts to come out and tell me that she never loved me from day one... that she liked me... and felt pressure to marry me and that she made the wrong decision... and that she hated her life and the ties to our marriage... and that it has all been an act and she could not continue... so I then told her that I do not believe that for a moment and that I though that she was having an EA... I admit that I have issues and am totally willing to go to couseling... but he was my issue... and she flipped out and told me to back off this idea... that we have had bigger issues than him and that I was only trying to blame it on their relationship... so we became like divorced people living under the same roof... It has been killing me... so I had all these feeling about the EA but was not at all for sure... I had no proof... so I started looking for proof... and found some more emails... and confronted her again and told her it had to stop... and she said that if I took her friend away that she would hate me for life... so I said I would think and pray about it for a few days but while I was doing so... she could not talk to him... so then he sends me a letter telling me that I am doing the one thing that will drive her from the marriage and that he is on my side too... during the few days that they were not talking... she was like a drone... wouldn't even talk to me... trying to make a point that she could not be happy and have an outlet without him... so over the next few days I was watching emails and saw some pretty disturbing emails... things like... he can never take what we have away from us... I stood outside today just to know I was breathing the same air as you and it made me forget all my troubles... and there were words of love for one another...

So I hit the roof... and I was told that the email were because they were pretty much knowing that I was gonna shut things down that those things were out of desperation and that they were saying their goodbyes and that yes they do love each other as brother and sister and in the Lord...

I am at wits end with this stuff and now she is trying to get me to figure out a way to separate and still have the kids live a normal life...

She says that she will live alone and that she would not enter into any relationships again... that she is not cut out for it...

She says that she can live with me but not give herself to me... and how can I ask her to give what she does not have to give...

I cannot believe that this is happening to our family... we are both christians... and I can in no way condone a divorce... so what can I do that does not make her fell pressured or attacked...

I know that this friendship/EA has to stop... but I believe it will drive her to walk out the door...

I guess that I had to get that off my chest... and I hate that I stole you post topic... but I am going crazy as alot of us on this site are so please forgive me...

I just cannot believe that there are so many people out there in the same boat...

I guess that I feel that my situation is a little worse being that she never really loved me...

So how do I answer that question... how can we restore a love that was never truly there... if that is the truth that she is speaking?

I will stop for now...

<small>[ January 26, 2005, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: devastatedhubby ]</small>

devastatedhubby,

are you a catholic ?.

Do you know that Dv rate is higher in Christian family than non ?.

You should stop listening to her "fog" and don't take it personally. She feel gulity and try to convince you to agree with her. Do not beleive what she said and beleive half what you see.

Avoid pushing her right now until you get the complete pictures of the situation. She might have PA already, just to warned you.

Read about plan A. Exposures of A to people that could help you to fight this A, I would talk to the pastor ASAP. Counter her "false" thinking that you can't be changed by finding what are your contribution in this mess and show it to her that you could be changed. Find out about OM as much as you can.

-rh-

DH, you have been given ALL the classic WS lines. I think it is perhaps the cruelest part of the infidelity experience ~ being made to question the reality of your life with your WS for so many years. Because that is what they tell us, is it not? "I loved you as a friend. I was never in love with you. I married you because you were the best I thought I could do." Those were the lines my FWH fed me after D-day.

I also feel a kinship with you, in that the OW was my best friend. She told me that she was pulling for me too, that they were just friends. She actually told me also to not try and take her away from my H, or it would drive him away from me.

My D-day was 12/31/03, and my H and I have been in recovery for almost 9 months. Your WW is trying to leverage her position to keep OM in her life, and have you accept it. Cake-eating, fence-sitting, she is attempting to do those things. My H did the same things, and the OW did too. I found emails I felt were inappropriate, and confronted them, only to be told it was in my head, my problem, my jealously, my insecurity.

My H had never lied to me regarding a direct question before. Ever. And he did to hide his PA with the OW. I knew there was an EA, even though they denied it. I think when an EA gets to a certain point, the affair partners just succumb to the physical part. Because in order to have the EA, they have let their boundaries be moved farther and farther from their core beliefs. They have begun to rationalize/justify their "love" so that they don't feel guilty.

How sure are you that this is not a PA as well?

And, are you willing to face her wrath and make having the OM go away from your lives? He is not her only friend. You are her friend, too. But, she will not realize that again until OM is gone. He is her fantasy bubble right now, her feel-good place. You are her reality that she must face about herself. Affairs are addictions, always remember that. And treat it as such. Your WW is addicted to OM.

Hang in there, and keep posting. This is a great place for personal recovery.

Spidey

I'm sorry you have to be here, but MB is the right place to be.

OK. Your wife is having an affair.

1. Go to the top of this page and click on bookstore and order the book "Surviving An Affair".

2. While you wait for it to arrive, read all the articles on this web site. Go back to the main page and read them.

3. Become familiar with the concepts of MB while you are reading this.

4. You will have to expose the affair to end it. (and there is no guarantee it will end then.) Read about exposure. Your pastor would be a good person to start with and talk to. The other man's wife, if he has one, must be told.

5. Gather your proof. Print out the e mails. Document everything and put it in a safe place. Make copies of the e mails, so that if the people you expose to don't believe it, you can show them.

6. She will be very, very angry. This is normal.
She will tell you the things she already has (believe nothing she says, no matter how hurtful it may be.)

7. Give advance thought to how you can secure yourself financially and legally if the need arises.

Sometimes these A's end with exposure. Sometimes they do not. Keep reading and posting here and consider counseling with MB counselors. (click on counseling at top of page.)

For more immediate help, go to the bookstore and see what you can find.

There are wonderful people here who will post to you. Keep coming here. It's a good place to be.

Hello DH,

Welcome to MB.

I am sorry you are here due to your wife's infidelity but let me assure you that your case is no different than many of what we have seen here.The suggestions from wayward spouses(WS's) that you were never supposed to be married,or your spouse never really loved you,she was just staying for the kids,she found her soulmate,etc,etc,all that is part of the affair and is not true.

Afterall,your WW is going to try and deny that she has been married to you for 12 years and NOW, oops,it was all a big mistake?? I think not.Your WW is as confused as a person can get due to her very inappropriate and painful relationship with this other man(OM).This man has her thinking everything was a sham and he is the answer to all her problems.And of course she will threaten you with never ever seeing you again,speaking to you,taking the kids away,Divorce,all kinds of threats just so you don't make her give up this addiction(OM).Dont buy it OK?

And,don't listen to anything this OM has to say.In my opinion,it worthless drivel.He has NO RIGHT to begin to tell you anything of how you should be reacting or what you should be doing.Of course he will say that ending the relationship with him will drive your WW out of the marriage.DUH.She already IS thanks to his homewrecking presence.If you do talk to him,tell him that you cannot believe there is a man out there in this world that is causing so much damage to a family and marriage.Ask him if he forgot about that little old commandment that says,"Thou shalt not covet...thy neighbors wife..." If he is married too then there is the one about not committing adultery.

But,the best route now is to stay away from this OM.He is a waste of time and energy and a selfish user.The focus needs to be on you,your children and your marriage,in that order.You need to get help and stability in order to survive this and also in order to help your children.You can't do that if you crash and burn and are not eating well,sleeping at all and are an emotional wreck,like most of us are in the beginning.After you and your kids are back in a routine then you can start to focus on your marriage and the terrible road you are on.

So what you should be doing now is this:

1) Plan A -the route to be on now(read up on it).

2) You need to make sure you get into some professional counseling with or without your WW.She most likely will not want to go but you can try.YOU need it for your own mental health.

3) Think about exposure to friends,family,the church.We can help you with this.

4) Get the recommended books here (HNHN,SAA).

5) Discuss AD's(antidepressants) with your doctor if you are unable to function properly during the day and have trouble eating,sleeping and dealing with work.

6) Be prepared that this is far from over.Most WS's say that it is over but they rarely keep the no contact(NC) rule.Your WW wants to separate so she can continue to engage in the Affair(A) without your interference.Separation only makes you separate,it doesn't help save a marriage or help children.

Hope this helps to start.There will be many more along soon.

O

<small>[ January 26, 2005, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ... that she is not cut out for it...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds familiar, my WW in essence said the same thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
She says that she can live with me but not give herself to me
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Similar but not the same as my WW.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
... and how can I ask her to give what she does not have to give...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would think that there should be signs about the truth of this. It just might be that she has some resentments toward you that need to be resolved.

Sounds like to me there are some underlying issues between the two of you. Find and repair the damage and I think you will find that she gradually shows her love for you again.

In the months sice my D-Day I have found out with out a doubt that one of our biggest problems is that I was short with my wife when she called me at work as well as when I was watching TV or playing video games.

I did not realize how much this hurt my wife and our relationship. Seemed like a small issue to me at the time. I promise you that 98% of the time I show full interest in what my wife is saying or asking now no matter when she wants conversation with me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
... so what can I do that does not make her fell pressured or attacked...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This one is very, very hard for me. Especially since this is a long standing problem in my M. My WW has often voiced that she feels like I am controlling. I have a very hard time understanding or seeing this since in my mind I try to give her every little thing she wants or needs.

Others here will probably have something useful to say on the subject.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I know that this friendship/EA has to stop... but I believe it will drive her to walk out the door... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hate to say this but it comes down to the question of; will you be a door mat or will you stand up for your rights in your marriage. Which teaches YOUR values to YOUR children?

What are you willing to risk to protect your self-worth, values and future mental health of you and YOUR children?

Stay strong and when you feel weak let your mouse be guided to the thread(s) in this forum that will give you strength to do the next thing you must do in this journey.

Thanks for the replies...
No I am not catholic... I was brought up in a christian home and have never strayed far from the path... I married a christian... we waited for real sex till marriage... and the whole 9 yards... I was not the perfect husband... chose the guys alot and my hobbies... but not near as much as most others... so I have my faults... but the past couple of months I have changed all those ways... I feel it not fair that she has been lying to me all these years... that she has been unhappy... I cannot be held accountable if she doesn't tell me how she feels... I would have been more than happy to setup counseling if it would have brought us closer together...

As far as the PA I don't know... short of setting up video recorders all over the house and in our minivan I don't know how I would find out... I know it is a possibility... but I don't know if they would take it there...

I really didn't want to state this... but this guy is our pastors son... and I have briefly talked to him and his wife about it and they say that that is not his heart... and of course if I needed them to... that they would step in and tell him that he must respect my asking for him to not contact my wife... but that will take away her only outlet... I know the classic turn around act...

I really don't want to hurt a man and women of God if they are truly just good friends... that is my only concern...


I have read alot of things on this site... plan a and plan b... other EA stories...

But none seam to address the "if she really never loved me and she knew that she was not to marry me" stuff... how do we get her to want to love me and be my partner... and not just an acting life/sex slave...

Yesterday she told me that fine you can make me live with you because I have no other options... but you can never make me lik/love/or want to give myself to you... I will just be you life/sex slave...

It about ripped out my heart!

She says I am just trying to control her and make her be something that she is not...

But what she doesn't want to hear is that I just want to help her be happy again... love being around our family again... see her laugh again... and at some point in time just be able to enjoy each other... the last being the farthest off I would guess...

I want all these things knowing that it will not be fun for me... but it is in the word of God that this is what is supposed to happen... we can make this work... but it will take all three of us... Her I and the LORD!!

But I know she is not Hip on the Lord at this time for his rules... being obligated to stay in this thing she never wanted and should have never signed up for...

I did not state this earlier... but we did marry young...19... so I understand that she feels trapped... she never got to experience life without ties... but neither did I!

Thanks again for all the replies... and I will try to keep my head up by day and my head down in prayer by night...

The nights being the toughest being that I miss her little touches so much that it P hurts... My stomach is in knots...

I see a few other have posted while I was writing this reply...
Octobergirl... I hear ya... I will try not to buy into the lies... but i can not make sense of all this... it is overwhelming... as strong as I believe that My wife is attached to this man in some way... I also still have a small belief that he has no intentions of this and does not see it... he is going to school to be a counselor and is in constant communication with me... I know I know... I could be a pat me on the back one sec stab in the back the next... i have no real sign or word from God on this and I am really wanting to know... funny thing... chinese fortune cookie today at lunch said... "Keep in touch with what your competition is doing" not that I believe in silly fortunes... just the word of God

Greergan... I hear ya on the full attention thing... I have addressed that... and she also states that I try to control her liker her dad... a whole other issue... but thanks for the kind words

Devastatedhubby,

Your post sounds very painful. You are in great despair.

Please know that those things that your wife is telling your are indeed CLASSIC. I've heard them all before... It rips your heart out and tears it in a million pieces, but it's indeed classic. Most WS's say those exact things.

The more difficult part is for you to try to tune them out and just listen to them as gobblygook because it's nothing else. She's trying to rewrite your marital history to ease her guilt and she's trying to find a way to justify what she's doing. It is not correct.

Don't let her trick you into this cake-eating thing. I've been there, done it, and it doesn't work...

Right now, she's mad and she's trying to make YOU mad by pushing you away. I would suggest that you read anything about Plan A that you can get your hands on, read out EN's and try to figure out what has been missing in your marriage.

Don't believe it when she says that she's never really loved you and that it was all a lie. THAT'S a lie!

Keep you chin up and keep posting here. People here have a LOT of experience with this and they'll be able to guide you.

Take care!
Kati

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "if she really never loved me and she knew that she was not to marry me" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Been there done that except I was told that our marriage has been a waste.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Greergan... I hear ya on the full attention thing... I have addressed that
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been addressing this for over 3 months since d-day and only lately have I truly realized how much I hurt my wife in the past. I only recently truly understand that she will have a very hard time forgiving this sin against her.

I only point this out to share my experience.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
... and she also states that I try to control her liker her dad... a whole other issue...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is exactly my case. This is what I am having a hard time really understanding. Is it realy me or is it a perception?

I guess what I am trying to tell your situation sounds very familiar to me. Further more, I still feel like there is hope for my marriage. There are daily ups and downs, from one extreme to the other.

Every day we both get stronger and are able to fight more fairly which some times leads to a better understanding of each other.

Don't get me wrong, I really do not know how things will end up. I only know where I want them to end up and I work toward that goal the best I can every day. Some days I do better than others. But shortly after loosing all hope I find some more.

I figure it is not over until SHE leaves. And if she does leave then I will know that I have done the best I could to uphold my commitment to her, our marriage and my higher power.

Some one here once told me that rebuilding a marriage is not a race. That is so true. Things change slowly and with effort.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really don't want to hurt a man and women of God if they are truly just good friends... that is my only concern... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suffered for a LONG time under the guise of the above statement ~ she was my best friend, he was my husband, they denied, even though my instincts told me different. I didn't want to expose them as adulterers, because what if . . . I was just jealous? I was insecure? I was WRONG?

But, I wasn't wrong. And I won't doubt myself and what is right again. Funny how the WS always thinks we BS's are trying to control them. I wasn't trying to control my FWH when I asked him to not contact OW anymore ~ I was telling him that what he was doing was hurting me. And he didn't care that he was hurting me. He wanted to do what he wanted to do, regardless of how it made me feel.

The question you should be asking yourself right now about what she is saying about loving you is: Did you get the impression, from all those years before OM came into the picture, that your WW loved you ~ truly and deeply?

I married young, as well. My FWH used that during his "fog" as well: "We married too young. We married for the wrong reasons."

And for a time, I did as you are doing now: I doubted myself. I doubted my self worth, doubted our past, doubted my interpretation of the love I felt I had received from him for 15 years. I doubted reality!

Then I started listening to the people around me, the people here. Everyone who knew us, told me how obvious it always was to them that H loved me, the way he talked to me and looked at me. Just as I remembered. My family told me that if he really didn't ever love me, that he deserved to have an Oscar Award for his fine acting! How can you fake such a thing for so many years? Seriously???

Your WW has taken all her fears, problems, issues, etc., and wrapped them up into a neat little package that makes sense to her: that your M was flawed, you are flawed, it was never meant to be, blah blah blah. The rest of the world sees that it is her inappropriate relationship with OM.

Honestly, I would ask the Pastor and his wife to intervene for you. I would tell them of the emails you have read, and ask them if they think it is appropriate for their son to continue this relationship with your wife. Just as addicts go through withdrawals when their drug is taken away, your WW will lash out if her OM is taken away. And just as with an addict, she will heal when the poison is out of her system.

She has undergone chemical changes in her brain with this A. It takes a while to clear them out of the system. Our MC used to say the the farther one's core beliefs are from their actions, the stranger their behavior gets. Sounds like your WW is acting pretty out of character.

Spidey

I just can't pick my jaw up off the floor... I can't even believe that you guys see this plain as day... I think I do... But I do not know if I can cut a hard line at this point... My wife has asked me to not talk to our pastor because she is friends with the pastors wife and son... and it is too close to home... and doesn't want the whole church to know if we try to make this work... and the guy gives me daily updates as to where he thinks my wife is and such... and he encourages me to find faith and refuge in God... I truly believer his intentions are solid... but he does not realize and does not accept what is really going on in my wife's head... I am in the process of setting up a plan a for what seams the umpteenth time... and going to call a spade a spade... or at least tell her that it is a spade in my eyes and that it needs to stop for our marriage sake... right or wrong... and we will deal with the hurt as we go down our new life path...

I guess one question would be:
Do I start Plan A after or before we seek Counseling... I am working on getting her to go... she said call and get the scoop but don't set up any appointments... so where should I go with this stuff... I would assume that any counselor that I would seek out would catch the EA? I would hope so...

Plan A starts as soon as you start becoming a better person/husband for yourself. Then you should be trying to help your wife stop the A in the most loving way possible...no demands etc.

I would suggest that you tell your pastor ASAP and find a new congregation to attend.


Added:
Also, get yourself the first counseling appointment that you can get. Invite the wife but don't get upset if she declines...either way get yourself there as soon as you can.

<small>[ January 26, 2005, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: greergan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by devastatedhubby:
<strong>My wife has asked me to not talk to our pastor because she is friends with the pastors wife and son... and it is too close to home... and doesn't want the whole church to know if we try to make this work...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hubby!! Get a grip!

OF COURSE she doesn't want you to talk to the pastor!! DUH!! Why do you think???????

We CAN see it plain as day. We see it EVERY day.

She's head over heels in an emotional affair and you'd be naive to believe it isn't more.

Go directly to the pastor, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. But this won't be jail. It'll be the first of many necessary steps to get you marriage back in order and to freedom.

And don't tell her you're doing it before you go. Why? Because she'll tip off the preacher's kid who will tip off his Dad that a crazy man is claiming "... that I'm fooling around with his wife!! You know THAT isn't true, right Dad - after all, I am a preacher's son!!!"

Understand?

I would immediiately expose the OM to the Pastor and his wife. You must bring shame and humiliation on the OM and your wife. Ask the Pastor to try and appeal to his son and that you don't want to lose your wife.

Affairs floursih in secrecy and once exposed, the secret affair is now public. Be kind to her in the mean time but break the affair anyway you can. Don't worry about the fog words she is saying, they like to rewrite the history of your marriage and their feelings to justify their own actions.

You are in a tough spot like so many of us have been in. There is light at the end of tunnel but you must learn every part of the MB program to know what and when to do things.

Good Luck

TooSoon

Hi again DH,

I just wanted to mention that there is no real way we can convince you of what we already know.Most times you just have to live through it yourself to get the understanding.Many of us here are WAY ahead of you,and many other's,on this adultery curve so in my opinion,that gives us the "credentials" to give advice like we do.We are not professionals but sometimes we can give just as good if not slightly better advice because we are living through what you are now experiencing.And we have studied and mastered the MB principles/ideas.

Over time you will know that we were right with our suggestions and I know some of what we say is hard to accept.But in the time that I alone have been here,there have been over 9,000 new members and I haven't heard any new story that hasn't already been told.Yours included.

This will be a long process for you.Just be sure to recognize that when things get worse, and they will.Make sure you know what your plan is,how to deal with your WW and that even though you may not have marital recovery,you can have personal recovery.This is the best MB has to offer.No matter what happens,you will come out a more knowledgable and understanding individual regarding relationships and marriage.

O

DH:

For God’s sake! Did I read you correctly? You actually talk to the OM and he is sort of counseling you? Do you realize OM is in the same deep fog as your wife? Do you realize that many of us BHs would beat the crap out of OM if we ever see the creep in front of us. BTW, I am a Christian too!

Of course your wife wants you to keep quiet! ALL WWs are THAT WAY!!!!!

Listen DH.

Go talk to OM and use a mean tone in your voice--- yell if you have too! Push him into a corner and tell him TO STAY AWAY FROM YOUR WIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Call the priest and tell him what is going on.

Tell your wife you are not going to put up with this phony baloney EA and that she has to go NC. In the mean time give her all the site’s literature on EAs and PAs.

Tell her you are not tolerating this. The worse she can do is walk and by then everybody should know about the affair.

As of now you are doing nothing.

BTW, the above only applies if you are interested in staying married.

Then once she is out of the fog start the ENs and so forth.

DH,

Sorry you are here. But in your situation, there probably isn't a better place to be.

Read. Read about Plan A/Plan B. Read about Love Busters. You sound like a pretty sharp guy, so I'm sure you can pick up on it. If you need any clarifications, then ask here on the board. There's almost always a wise soul to offer help, and a kind soul to offer support.

A few points:

Don't listen to a word the OM says. There's only one thing he's interested in right now, and it ain't you. My WW's 3rd OM was an upstanding citizen. I confronted him (sternly as Stan-ley suggests). He told me he wouldn't stand in the way of a marriage. I found an email that he slept with my W that weekend. My WW was also impressed that he would never live with someone before he was married. Stand up guy.

Expose to your pastor. Be brief, but be prepared to provide more proof if necessary. I would go with: "I feel your son's relationship with my W is damaging to my M. I ask for your support in strengthening my M. It would be of great benefit to our M if your son had no further contact with my W." Or something of the sort.

Be prepared for anything from your W. She may be nasty, reserved, angry, anything.

Think before you speak. If you're not sure what to say, just offer a warm smile....

I will disagree with what Stan-ley said about giving your wife things to read. Remember, ****she's not having an affair!***** There is a time and a place, but while she's in the midst of all this, I think your energy may be better served in other areas....

Stay with us. Most of us have been in your shoes one way or the other.

Don't be afraid to stand up for what you believe in. That may change through this process. But don't be afraid...

Good Luck,
Ethan

Hubby - sometimes we have to scare the daylights out of someone before they realize what's going on.

One word of consolation: you are normal.

For that matter, your wife is "normal" and so is the God faring OM. "Normal" in the sense that they are playing their roles exactly according to affair script. They are in affair hysteria, commonly referred to here as the "fog."

The good news about this is that everything you can learn here applies to you and your situation. A text book case.

Your biggest challenge right off the bat is avoiding self doubt. Just about all BSs have it in the beginning. It's the "I can't believe what I'm seeing, so I must be crazy" syndrone. This is why we have to scare the daylights out of you > to keep you from getting totally sucked in by the hysteria.

Now get to work and talk to the Pastor today. Tell us what happens because he very likely will be in denial as well. This is why you need to show him some evidence. Trust us on this.

WAT

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

DH, I hope we did not scare you away. And you do not have to follow our advice to post here, either. If you still have reservations about talking to the pastor, keep posting here anyway.

The most important thing is to post and read, post and read. For myself, when I read here about SO MANY other people hearing and living the same nightmare I had found myself in, I was comforted. I was like, "OK, this whole thing is not just ME. There is a WHOLE system going on here, and there are proven ways to break the system and repair the M."

That is what all this is about. NOT to embarass your WW, the OM, for revenge or spite. It is to expose the secret, dark A, to the light of truth. A's flourish in secrecy and deceit. When the "real world" is introduced into these A's (ie, friends and family), they tend to die very swift deaths.

In the Bible, God gives a large list of what love is. Love is kind, love never harms, etc. What your WW and the OM have is NOT love. She is so close to it, though, she cannot see what her mind has done to this relationship to try and make it OK in her heart. Her mind has warped it into this thing of beauty and purity and blah blah blah.

It is dark, dirty, secret, hurtful, nasty. BUT, for her to see that right now, she would have to see all that about herself. And her mind just won't let her do that for a while. Which is why Plan A is so important.

Also, you are experiencing symptoms close to Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. We all suggest at some point, going to your family physician and explaining what is going on, and making sure you couldn't benefit from some medication (anti-depresants, anti-anxiety, etc.). Also, when humans go through stress like this, there is a diminished appetite. We call it the infidelity diet. Along with that, your body is doing the "fight or flight" response, that it is programmed to do in times of acute stress. So, your mind might swing wildly from running away, to fighting desperately for your WW and M. And that is normal, as well.

Some of the books I recommend are: "Torn Assunder," "His Needs Her Needs," "Surviving an Affair," "After the Affair," and a Christian book called "Love Life for Every Married Couple," by Dr. Ed Wheat. This last book was recommended by the Christian counselor I saw right after D-day, when I told him I wanted to save my M, but my H said he didn't. Chapter 15 is "How to Save Your Marriage Alone." And it follows many of the MB concepts. There is a great analogy in there about flying by your instrument panel, when you can't get a visual. That is what we do here. Everything is "foggy," it all looks different than it used to, and sometimes it feels like you are crashing and burning, when in reality (stick with us!) you are doing just fine.

So, have hope, do not despair, M's are saved here each day. Keep reading and posting.

Spidey

Thanks again guys... last night before I went home I called my wife and asked her if we would be able to talk last night or if she was not wanting to talk yet... she said she had nothing to say at this point and that she doesn't think that I get the reality of where she is at... and there is no point in her telling me how it is and making me mad... because she stabs at me... not just being honest... with a nice tone... she starts to go off on me... and it is hard to take... I am at the point that I do not slash back and she stills says that my silence is wrong and she can't communicate with me... and I said I was understanding where she is at... but am willing to work through it... I asked her if the counselor things was acceptable... and she said she is not going yet... and that she would not go to a counselor that I called and gave any info to fill them in on out situation... and even if she were to go to counseling that she would not do it for us but for herself.... and that it would not be marriage counseling but just counseling to help her deal with the life she has... so I said that I understand if you don't want to go to marriage counseling with me yet but I would think that at some point we will need to get to that... and she said... I am making no promises... and you can't make me... I said that I needed to know where she is trying to go with things... and she said... I don't even want to talk end goals... because I know you can't handle it and I don't want to know what you end goal is... she keeps asking what all my motives are and I have nothing other to say but to resolve and repair our marriage... and she feels smothered by that... even though I tell her I know it will not happen soon and I will not pressure her... But I think that she must at least admit if she is willing to go there or if she will not even try...

I chatted with my pastor last night... and he said he thought I might be on to something... but that if I act without a counselors advice and in the wrong timing that I can make things worse... and he thought that it might be best for her counselor to catch on to the EA and then let her be the bad guy instead of me...

I don't know what to think about this... because it will not happen soon...

Believe me guys that I understand and hear all of you suggestions... but I am praying and seeking wisdom on how to do this with right timing as to not make a bigger mess...

Thanks for all the kind words and advice... keep them coming... they help me get through the day...

I am looking to make a list of what makes her relationship an EA... any help like as in bullet points would be appreciated...

I have a few so far...

You spend more time with him out having fun than your husband...

You confide in him and not your husband...

You can't live without his conversation and companionship... but you can your husband...

You will listen to his advice over your husbands...

When you emotionally down... you call him over your husband...


Some kinda overlap... but anyway... your help would be appreciated