It has been a month or two since the last conversation regarding him took place... I know I can't make her stop anything... but I think I can say he is not welcome in my house... and I do not have to say it is ok for her to go get coffee at BN with him when she asks if it is ok... or say it is ok for her to stay up till lat in the night chatting when our family needs are not being met...

I will try to focus on the ENs and LBs... I really want to have fun and support and encourage her... but she will not have it for now... I am trying:-)

Just this afternoon she called me at work for the first time in a couple days... she seamed nice enough... prolly because she was basically telling me she wanted to go out with a girlfriend tonight...

But oh well...

If we could just stop the fighting and at least realize that we need to move forward... the rest will fall in place...


Another day closer to the end... end of what... i don't know:-)


Thanks all and have a good night... till tomorrow....

OK, now what did the Pastor say?

Is he gonna do anything?

Next step, expose it the the congregation at large.

In fact, if the Pastor doesn't commit to doing something, tell him you have no choice BUT to reveal the affair to the congregation.

Yes, I'm serious. Dead serious.

WAT

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Well I am at home... alone... she is off with a girlfriend... all was good when I got home... she showed me a new shirt... and we fed the kids... then when she was getting ready... I asked her a question... I had already heard the name his needs her needs... and I thought we might even have it... and when I asked her where it was... she got pissy and told me I just don't get it... Maybe it was a mistake... she asked me what my motives were and that nothing in that book would help... that is not where she was at... I tried to explain that I was trying to better myself... and so on... so I left her be... I guess that I should have just not mentioned anything... but oh well

On another bad note...I noticed that she has been enailing him again... more of this I love you for helping me through this stuff... and he..being me... will never understand... and blah blah blah... some other stuff that I will not mention made me feel ill... but then again there were words of her going to counseling and how I did not realize what I was doing to the situation... so I have no idea what to do... there was also things... like my life ended the day I married my husband... and that I would rather die than to give you up... and that she should have never told me how she feels... it was easier to act than to do the stuff we are doing now...


I desperately want to do anything that I can to be a better husband if that is truly how she feels... but this strange relationship she has... has to go... I was about to vomit when I saw the words typed about me... and they talked about me like I was some outsider to their group... and the thing that made me the maddest was that she said that " I may love sex, but I am not that despearte...when you feel so much yuck towards someone"

Maybe too much info... but I cannot take this... I need an outlet...

Th last thing before I go is that his last email to her was kinda I feel sorry for the poor guy... that he cannot even see how he is pushing you away...talkin about me

He is playing both side of the fence... but it does not tell me that he is after her...

I cannot tell... but I do know that I cannot let this stuff go on and be sane enough to deal with the things I need to be doing to save my marriage...

To answer the question above... the pastor said it would not be wise for it to come from me... it would push her farther away...

and as far as the chursh goes... they know they are friends and hang out... all seam ok with it because she is the friend of the pastors wife and pastors son...

He will step in... but I know that they already talk about how they don't care what others think about their relationship... because they know it is right...

So I am screwed!

I have to make the call to him and pastor and tell then that he is to never contact her... or confront her directly... I do not know what to do...

I have several docs that have weird stuff that you can read both ways in them... I wish I could pass them by someone in a professional setting and get their input...

I am at such a crossroad... because I know I have made many mistakes along the line... and I cannot seperate them from what my wife is saying and doing... I cannot tell where I am in life and what I should do...

I know I sound patheric... but I have no word from God on this and I am feeling alone... Not that you guys don't help... or at least keep me talking and thinking...

HELP

DH:

That is a painful post! I am very sorry you are going thru this.

I believe your wife sees you as a door-mat (sorry if I sound like Lemon Man).

Wife trashes you with OM and OM pretends to be the good guy and sort of tries not to thrash you that hard. This is a virulent OM. He lets your wife do the talking regarding your “so called defects“. If he pointed then out your wife could be defensive cause after all she married you. Good OM never LBs---------------- This guy is SMOOTH, a real scum---------- trust me.

This is what I would do:

Plan A for a couple of days and let every body in the world know about the affair.

Did you have the MAN to MAN (Man to scum I should say) talk with OM yet? What are you waiting for? Don’t be scared, most OMs are cowards!

You may need to put your wife out on the street and ask OM to take care of her if your talk does not do the trick.

Then GO plan B and see a lawyer.

She needs a jolt!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but I know that they already talk about how they don't care what others think about their relationship... because they know it is right... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BULL CRAP!!!

They, *she*, is telling you that so that you will think their relationship is acceptable. What say you print out one of those emails and ask her if she minds that OM's FATHER reads it. If it is appropriate for a married woman to be counseling her PERSONAL, INTIMATE, MARITAL issues with her Pastor's son?!?! It is not OK!!!

Is this OM a trained professional? Is he educated to be counseling her in these matters? Does he NEED to know that she loves sex???

DH, this is all not OK. Boundaries are boundaries, and she is treading all over yours! If she is so confident about their relationship, how does she think you could ruin it for her?

Your M cannot survive in a triangle. Taking her addiction away from her is going to tick her off. Period. There will be wrath, anger, it will be scary and ugly. And it will pass. Your first step MUST be this ~ exposure. You can not save your M with the OM in her life, in YOUR life.

My FWH was EXTREMELY angry when I exposed. The OW put TONS of pressure on him to get me to shut up. He threatened me, told me he would take the house, the kids, take everything from me if I didn't shut my mouth. But I stood my ground. And he had anger, and frustration, and called me controlling and vinictive. And if I had it to do all over again, I would have exposed MUCH sooner.

Spidey

DH,

You could ask her why she is trying to control you, by telling you what you can and cannot read? What can and cannot be done by you for the family? You could ask.

You said in a post a page or so back </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If we could just stop the fighting and at least realize that we need to move forward... the rest will fall in pla</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WE DON'T STOP FIGHTING, YOU STOP FIGHTING. Just walk away from her. Tell her how you feel about something and she responds in anger walk away.

You made a statement that you won't "allow" this to continue. I hate to break the news to you, but you have NO CONTROL over her, or OM. So it is not a question of 'allow'. You need to do a good plan A, and then if this continues ask her to move out and go to plan B.

You have not quite got the picture yet. You are close, but not quite there. You need to develop a "respectful distance" emotionally so that you can interact, state your boundaries via the "I feel statements" and then move away especially if she reacts with anger. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU FIGHT WITH HER. It just feeds her justifications.

Basically, you need to via you actions, put the lie to her statements. You control that and you need to control yourself.

Tough stuff, this whole thing is definitely NOT for wimps.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by devastatedhubby:
<strong>To answer the question above... the pastor said it would not be wise for it to come from me... it would push her farther away...

and as far as the chursh goes... they know they are friends and hang out... all seam ok with it because she is the friend of the pastors wife and pastors son...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"would not be wise for it to come from me..."

For what to come from you???

All this is EXACTLY why Pastors should not be relied upon for relationship counseling. Moral counseling, fine. But not counseling on relationship dynamics. Would you take plumbing advice from a lawyer?

Sure, "all seem OK with it." That's because he's the Pastor's son. He wouldn't do anything like this. NoooooOOOOOooooo. Further the Pastor has much to lose by having his son revealed as an adulterer.

Sooner or later, you have to blow this thing out of the water. It will be ugly. Take the e-mails to the Pastor and assume - for the time being - that he will do the right thing once he sees them. Give him a little time to act and then re-engage to see what he's doing. In the meantime you HAVE to back off from your wife. You cannot change her or convince her of ANYTHING. Right now, to her, you are public enemy number one. But this is NOT permanent. We've seen it all before. She's in affair hysteria and should be considered as not the same person you know.

The only thing you can do right now, other than be the best person you can be, is to expose the affair. You are normal in your hesitation to do this and doing so DOES seem counterintuitive in that the "push her away" argument seems plausible on the surface. Exposure WILL push her away and make her livid and "ruin her life" yada yada yada. Nut this is a necessary one step back for two steps forward necessity.

I'll bump up a thread subject "Affair Exposure 101." Read it thoroughly, especially the testimonials from those who FINALLY exposed and wish they had done it sooner.

WAT

DH:

The son of the preacher has poor ethics. This likely reflects on his upbringing. Most folks who enter into adulterous relationships have poor ethics related to childhood issues. I know that the preacher is expected to be an upright man because of his profession, but, do not expect him to point out to his kid that he is doing something wrong. Obviously, the preacher did not do a good job raising his son------ don't put all your eggs there.

Talk to the OM!!!!!!!!!!!!

Expose the affair to everybody!

The WW will be livid-------- they hated it when they are caught or exposed. She will say you are scum because you snoop and that she has a right to privacy. They all say that! She will call you dishonest and all kinds of names even thou she is the one doing the cheating.

I will read "Affair Exposure 101."

I gues that what I am hearing is that I need to talk to pastor... and his son... regarding the specific letters and how I feel right not... don't pass go and don't collect 200 dollars...

I can do that....

What do I say to my wife...

How can I explain my actions without calling it an affaif that I had to take to a higher power?

It is the weekend and I am scared as MarkNY is...

The other thing about exposing this via the email communication is that it will stop... and they will go back to the phone... something I have yet to try to get any communication info on... it would be a little harder to get proof from the phone... not that it can't be done;-)

I have about 6 hours to decide about the weekend and the things that need to happen...

Keep the suggestions coming...

Thanks

Oh and she has been on the couch for a week...

It sucks to live two totally different lives...

I think it may be a good idea to at least invite your wife along. All of you can sit down and discuss whats going on. Bring copies of your letters, you don't have to use them, but if there very existance or obvious meaning is called into question you can present your evidence.

I angered my wife more my going to see our pastor before telling her. He told me to ask her to make an appoint with him. I started it with - would you like to sit down with Fr X? She didn't sound totally opposed. Once I told her I had already met with him she went nuts. Now he is in no way a part of our problems, unlike yours. She just has to deal with him at school board meetings and of course during chirch. I should of told her I was going to see him and tell her I would like it if she came along.

One of my first thoughts last summer (discovery) was to have all of us sit down and discuss - me, wife, OM , and his wife. That was shot down with much opposition. But it would have opened things up right in front of all involved parties and no one could call the other a lier or a jealous paranoid. Everyone would hear first hand what the other had to say.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by devastatedhubby:
<strong>I have about 6 hours to decide about the weekend and the things that need to happen...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No you don't.

You have 6 hours to decide to leave her alone as much as possible. There - you finished in 6 seconds. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

On the couch? Good. Leave her alone. When she communicates with you, be pleasant and up beat. This DOES NOT mean give her the silent treatment. Just no special attention. Treat her outwardly AS IF she isn't an alien abductee, all the while knowing she is and knowing whatever she says gets filtered via the transporter thru the Mothership.

Regarding talking to the Pastor - don't say anything to your wife. Nothing. Infact, don't talk to the OM before you talk to the Pastor.

Yes, if the e-mail get stopped, other ways of communicating will happen. But this is not the point of exposure. Exposure is not meant to stifle communication - it's meant to reveal the affair, to remove its secrecy. THEN communication will stop if exposure is successful in shaming them into ending the affair. Understand?

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MarkNY:
<strong> I think it may be a good idea to at least invite your wife along.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No.

We already know how his wife will react. Not only will she not go, inviting her to go along will tip her off that he;s going to see the Pastor and she'll attempt to disrupt the meeting via OM.

Never underestimate the deviousness and desperation of a WS in the fog.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MarkNY:
<strong>One of my first thoughts last summer (discovery) was to have all of us sit down and discuss - me, wife, OM , and his wife. That was shot down with much opposition. But it would have opened things up right in front of all involved parties and no one could call the other a lier or a jealous paranoid. Everyone would hear first hand what the other had to say. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mark - there you go, thinking like a rational person again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Believe me, these ideas don't work in the land of the unrealistic. Do not kick yourself for not doing these things in the past.

WAT

DH:

The contents of the emails clearly show there is an affair----- so you have proof. The issue is whether this is only EA or EA plus PA. If you keep monitoring email you will soon know. Hopefully it is only EA (lets keep our fingers crossed).

Of course, if you present the evidence they may become cleverer and use secret email accounts or immediately erase the email as soon as it is read. They could use other computers in the library or at work. If you tap the phone the OM may buy a cell for your wife and you will never know she talks on the phone because that bill never comes to your home. Like JL said, there is nothing you can do to control their behavior.

I am surprised you have not told your wife that you suspect she is having an EA and that this is something that cannot be tolerated in a marriage. It seems the two of you have not talked seriously about this subject.

I am not a proponent of exposing affairs at all times, but this may be needed here.

I would do this:

1. Talk to wife and say to her you know about the affair. She will deny it---- no big deal. Simply say in a calm voice I know about the affair and that you do not accept that.
2. Talk to OM in a forceful manner. Make sure he craps his pants when he hears you and tell him not to contact YOUR WIFE AGAIN!


If that does not work

EXPOSE

If that does not work--------- plan B. Put her out on the street and don’t talk to her or provide any ENs. Talk to a lawyer and protect yourself. This may be the jolt that will bring her back.

Let me ask you something:

Is OM a threat to you?
Does he make more money than you?
Does he appear to be a better man?

I ask this because quite often OM is inferior to the BH, but sometimes OM may be perceived as a better candidate for marriage and the WW is thinking, “exit affair”.

How old are your kid?

Does wife go to work? Or-- is she a student?

<small>[ January 29, 2005, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

So now I am to go to the Pastor even though I said I wouldn't... before at least talking to her about it the stuff I know about...

She has never known that I have these emails and communications...

And I should not show her the letters to explain how I feel and ask her to stop communication...


Is that what you are saying?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Never underestimate the deviousness and desperation of a WS in the fog. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NEVER!!!

DH and Mark, your WW's are not people you can effectively communicate with right now. You can try every single type of thing that has ever worked for you in the past ~ you can try them all over and over, and they will be unsuccessful. How do I know? I did them all! Several times!!! I know, I'm hard-headed, but GEEZ! This stuff is soooo hard to do, so counter-intuitive.

But, we have lived through it. WAT knows of what he speaks. Exposure should be soon and swift, without a whole lot of hoopla and discusion. Think of a surgeon, he goes in swiftly and cuts out the tumor. He doesn't open it up, talk about it, invite others to watch him or help him, doesn't let a whole lot of other people reach in there and feel around. He gets in and out quickly, because the wound will heal faster.

There will be a wound when you expose. You cannot get around that, no matter how you try and phrase it to her, word it to her, whatever. She is going to be very ticked off that YOU (her H) are interfering with HER (affair) life.

The way I looked at it was as if my FWH was a drug addict. If you do an intervention (like exposure), do you ASK the person BEFORE you do it? NO! They wouldn't show up. Or they would show up ready for a fight.

You must save her from herself at this point, and you must do it in a way that she doesn't THINK you are trying to save her. Because in her mind, she is normal right now. She thinks she is entitled to this happiness, this "friendship," because her life with you so far has been horrible (as she has rewritten the history).

She basically cannot see beyond the end of her nose right now. You can. You are the best hope for your M right now, but you must expose first. Her A will continue to grow and prosper in the furtile ground of secrecy and darkness. Shine the light of truth and consequences on their actions. When I did this, my H's OW ran away and hid in the darkness. She dropped my H like a hot potato. We live in a very small community, and she didn't want to be known as a "homewrecker," as my H and I are very active in the community with volunteer work.

And even after she stopped the A, my FWH continued in his fog for a while. His "withdrawals" from the fantasy that he escaped to with her. It is a slow process, but keep posting here, keep reading, and you will come out on the other side, one way or the other. I have seen so many M's recover, but you must guide the process. If left to their own devices, many couples destroy what is left of the M before it can have a chance to recover.

Feelings and tensions run very high. Try and detach from your WW emotionally for a bit. Try and step back, and get some perspective. Listen to WAT.

You know how if you are upset with someone, their qualities are seen in different ways? Like, if you are upset with someone, you could view them as bossy, controlling, even a bully. BUT, if you are feeling warm fuzzies toward that SAME person, those SAME qualities can be seen as leadership, decisiveness, security.

Right now, your WW is seeing EVERYthing you do in the most negative way. She is giving you NO benefit of the doubt. Even your most kind action, in your opinion (and her opinion before OM), will be seen as offensive in some baffling foggy way. The best bet is to pull away a bit. Be as neutral as possible. Pleasant, but neutral.

Spidey

<small>[ January 28, 2005, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

***edited, pending answer to question on another thread***

<small>[ January 28, 2005, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has never known that I have these emails and communications...
And I should not show her the letters to explain how I feel and ask her to stop communication...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Monitoring is helpful for the diagnosis--------- You already have a diagnosis.

Quite often the BH gives away how he discovered the affair on D-day. Two things can happen. WW uses a different method of communication to continue the affair or she actually stops the affair. If WW wants to continue all the monitoring in the world will not stop her. However, the exposure may stop her.

What is the status of OM? Is he married too?

Is OM seen as an upright man in the church? If this is the case OM may dump your wife as soon as exposed.


I say don’t show evidence yet, simply tell them you know. This will allow you to monitor the effect of your actions. In my case I monitored for a couple days after D-day and intercepted an email where my wife dumped the OM instantly. That was a very gratifying discovery which helped me trust my wife again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by devastatedhubby:
<strong> So now I am to go to the Pastor even though I said I wouldn't... before at least talking to her about it the stuff I know about...

She has never known that I have these emails and communications...

And I should not show her the letters to explain how I feel and ask her to stop communication...


Is that what you are saying? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe this is what you should do:

1. Even though you said you wouldn't, go to the Pastor with copies of the e-mails messages - the most damaging ones. Explain that you are interested in saving your marriage, but this cannot begin to happen until OM and your wife cease all contact. Ask for his assistance. Tell us what happens.

2. Do not tell your wife you are going to do #1.

3. Communicate to OM that he is harming your marriage and communicate that you expect him to stay away from your wife. Do not get into an argument and if you think you cannot do this calmly, do not do it at all. Contrary to Stan-ley's advice, do not threaten him, do not give him an ultimatum. Just make it clear that you consider him a detriment to your marriage and he doesn't belong in a relationship with your wife.

4. Do not tell your wife you are going to do #3.

5. DO NOT tell your wife about your evidence. If you get into a conversation with her about her relationship with OM (which you should avoid for now) calmly tell her you KNOW about her relationship with OM and you consider it to be inappropriate. She does not consider it an affair so don't use that word. You KNOW that she has lied to OM about you and made you sound like someone you're not.

Are you close to your wife's family? The next concentric circle of exposure should be made there, if the first doesn't work.

WAT

<small>[ January 28, 2005, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>