I jacked this from another thread I was on 'cause I really need help with this.

Okay, I know this is qetting ridiculous, that I am so upset about this ting that I'm in my own fog, or whatever, but can anyone explain this:

My W just informed me that she is going to attend a 'Formal' - some sort of function at her school. She is going with another guy - she said she chose him especially because he is NOT the OM, and she is not going to have any affair with him.

But she went out and bought the sexiest black, virtually see thru underwear I've ever seen just for this occaision. She said she needed something nice to wear with her dress. I can understand a nice dress, but she already has nice underwear - why the need for this?

Am I reading too much into this, is this a female thing? I suppose I am just reading too much into it, although she just hid it while I was out of the room. Makes sense, heh?


<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">posted January 26, 2005 11:43January 26, 2005 01:43 PM

David -

Your W is going to a 'formal' with another guy?

Why?

I would ask her why isn't she taking you.

--------------------
afterall
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did. She didn't want me to go. And the more I think about how she acted when I asked her about her new undies, the more I am convinced there's more to this than I at first thought. It just hit me that she may be actually going with the OM. She doesn't want me around, except to take care of her at home - doesn't want to go anywhere with me, she has started coming up with various excuses for not seeing the MC on Friday.....

I'm starting to panic again. Dangit. I'm not invited to the formal - it's 'invitation only' so I can't really crash it, but I have to do something. If she is really this bent on leaving the marriage, why doesn't she just go instead of dragging me around like this? I guess she wants me to blow up and be the bad guy.....

Ain't gonna happen. I went thru this in my last marriage. Made a lot of the same mistakes. I can't even remember how many men my XW slept with before finally leaving with one - and I let it happen. It's happening again!

I want to just come right out and ask her if there is anything, anything at all in this marriage that she sees as worth working for, because it doesn't feel like it from my end. It feels like she's been expecting me to make up for my EA for three years now with no input from her, and I am getting tired of giving. Three - almost four years - seems too long. And if she is so bent on ending it, why not do it today?

Somebody stop me.

David,

I took a brief break of posting to you but have been following your story.

I hear the urgency in your posts but you need to remember to stay the course OK? Whatever stunts your WW is pulling you have to stick to plan A and show some "indifference" if you can understand that.And WS'a are liars.There is a very real possibility that the OM is going to be her "escort".Maybe not but even if it's some new guy on campus she sounds like she's on the prowl.Looking for attention.

Letting this happen again is not the same here when you are an MB'er.You cannot control the actions of another but when you follow the plans here and if one day you have to get divorced then you CAN say without a hint of regret that you did everything you could to save your marriage.If it didn't work out,you can then blame your WW.Your WW is 100% responsible for this activity she is displaying,not you.Don't forget that.You are not letting this happen again but rather you are trying to deal with it in the best most appropriate way that we have at our disposal.

Part of dealing with this is having that proverbial "life" outside of the marriage so you are not consumed with only what your WW is doing.You need to have some focus there.And it's not fog you are going through.You are trying to handle one of life's most painful situations.Not an easy task for anyone.

O

Not much advice for you, but TONS of sympathy. It's amazing how cruel the WS can be sometimes. I know mine was. This is one of those situations where you have to focus on what you can do. You can't stop her from going with whoever, but you can handle yourself with grace and strength. Good luck and if I could lend you some strength, I would.

Dobie

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong> David,

I took a brief break of posting to you but have been following your story.

I hear the urgency in your posts but you need to remember to stay the course OK? Whatever stunts your WW is pulling you have to stick to plan A and show some "indifference" if you can understand that.And WS'a are liars.There is a very real possibility that the OM is going to be her "escort".Maybe not but even if it's some new guy on campus she sounds like she's on the prowl.Looking for attention.

Letting this happen again is not the same here when you are an MB'er.You cannot control the actions of another but when you follow the plans here and if one day you have to get divorced then you CAN say without a hint of regret that you did everything you could to save your marriage.If it didn't work out,you can then blame your WW.Your WW is 100% responsible for this activity she is displaying,not you.Don't forget that.You are not letting this happen again but rather you are trying to deal with it in the best most appropriate way that we have at our disposal.

Part of dealing with this is having that proverbial "life" outside of the marriage so you are not consumed with only what your WW is doing.You need to have some focus there.And it's not fog you are going through.You are trying to handle one of life's most painful situations.Not an easy task for anyone.

O </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">O, I don't understand this though. I know what you are saying is right, and I agree, but I don't understand how she can just cut me so completely out of her life. I didn't even know there was a Formal coming up. I don't understand how I could be such a terrible husband that she has to find others - it doesn't even seem like she cares how it affects anyone around her. I don't know what ENs she needs filled. I don't know what LBs I'm still doing.

And this hurts so much. I knew something was up last night when she asked me if I had put a keystroke logger on her laptop. Why would she even worry about that unless she had something to hide? Why doesn't she just come out with the guts my ex-wife did, and just say, "I don't love you, Im leaving". I could handle that easier than getting broadsided every few weeks.

I just don't understand.

I was caught in the same situation as you where I knew something smelled fishy in sweden, but he was denying and only giving half-truths...yet was taking showers and cologne before going out with his "friend".

I got tired of spying and looking...it takes quite a bit of energy and it turned me into a person I did not want to be...

I told him "I will assume that something is going on unless you can prove to me there is nothing happening. Knowing that something is happening I will act accordingly." And I left it at that. It brought a period of peace (sort of) to not have to work at proving something...I just knew, and knew I would learn details later...

I could then concentrate on Plan A, changing myself (which took quite a bit of effort, let me tell you) and making plans for the future...with or without him...

I've read many a BS that makes themselves crazy looking for every shred of proof. I beleive the burden of proof is upon the WS. This is not a court of law, innocent until proven guilty. I beleive once an A has occurred it is up to the WS or the FWS to releive doubt (to a reasonable extent) in the BS's mind. That rarely, if ever, happens if the A is continuing, so suffice it to say...the A is probably continuing.

So, what now?

Have you exposed the A?

Have you cut out LBs and trying to fulfill her top three EN's?

im in a bad mood---so take that into consideration when reading this... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

if it were me---i would take them undies and put itching powder or something like that on them!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

sorry---this sitch of yours is a trigger for me...i will be praying for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
<strong> I got tired of spying and looking...it takes quite a bit of energy and it turned me into a person I did not want to be...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's how I feel. I don't want to spy, especially since one of my main LBs was dishinesty, and you have to be sort of dishonest to spy...at least till you confess you did it.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told him "I will assume that something is going on unless you can prove to me there is nothing happening. Knowing that something is happening I will act accordingly." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can I borrow that? At least it gives peace of mind....


<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've read many a BS that makes themselves crazy looking for every shred of proof. I beleive the burden of proof is upon the WS. This is not a court of law, innocent until proven guilty. I beleive once an A has occurred it is up to the WS or the FWS to releive doubt (to a reasonable extent) in the BS's mind. That rarely, if ever, happens if the A is continuing, so suffice it to say...the A is probably continuing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. That did help. Yes, I exposed the A, little good it did, except that her parents are really angry with her.

I'm trying to cut out ALL LBs (don't know if I am - seems there'd be some sort of sign from her if I was.) As for her ENs - I keep trying to guess, and do all I can to make her feel more welcome at home than anywhere else...

<small>[ January 26, 2005, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>

Who's got "off color humor"? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nikko:
<strong> im in a bad mood---so take that into consideration when reading this... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

if it were me---i would take them undies and put itching powder or something like that on them!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd love to do something like that, but I don't think it would help things. She's bought more sexy stuff since she started her A than in all the years we've been together. The only time she wore anything like it before was when she was trying to get me hooked before we were married (it worked...)

David

all right you need a plan...and need to get focused....

first off the perception of LB's...her perception that it is a LB...is caa-caa...LB are disrespectful judgements namecalling...nagging...etc...

LB's are not and will never be steps needed as in your case to expose falsehoods that have direct impact on your...

financial well being
health well being
and place of dwellling and being with your children...

though WS love to turn these things in to huge huge issues...it is really nothing more than smoke and mirrors to deflect from the reality that the BS needs to snoop based soley on WS dishonesty....

ironic doesn't even begin to cover this issue..
cause it takes a strong stomach for a BS to be told that snooping is deceiptful... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So the biggest tip here is for the BS to remain as emotionless as they can when being told they are spies... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> or breached trust.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> and if these aren't the perfect times to use orchids reverse babble..I dont I can't imagine when else....

but I digress so you need a plan to the formal...

first off you speak your peace...
speak your pain of how much it hurts that she isn't taking you to the formal..

speak your pain of it hurts that she would take some one else...(do you even know this person???)

do not mention the underwear...that will just be a futile powestruggle...

you also need to quit being so available to watch the children...


when is the formal exactly...

ark

hey---i have allways said i have a twisted sense of humor.....first to admit it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

this is why i'ville is misunderstood...we all have this sense of humor going on!!! let loose on the general public...not many can handle it...lol <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It's also a trigger for me, nikko - my H even bought OW the dress and the underwear. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't understand how I could be such a terrible husband that she has to find others - it doesn't even seem like she cares how it affects anyone around her. I don't know what ENs she needs filled. I don't know what LBs I'm still doing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK - you are not a terrible husband. You are taking responsibility for this. YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE - got it? You can't fill her ENs as long as she is in the A. You may not be LBing at all. If you were The Perfect Man right now she would not notice - or care. The A has to end, the fog lift, the mothership return, and withdrawal over etc. before you will see your real wife again.

In Plan A the spouse might not acknowledge at all anything good you are doing -- keep doing it anyway.

Put your children first. Be polite to her, say "I feel that by attending this event without me, you are insulting me and your children and making me feel __________." You fill in the blank.

Say "I feel that when you ignore your children you make them feel ______________."

Then do what the other person above suggested. Make wonderful plans with your children. Make sure the kids are excited about it and share that enthusiasm in front of their mother.

Put an end to her spending spree. This is something you can control. As you do it, say "when you take my money and spend it on yourself it makes me feel ____________. I don't want to feel that way any more. " Then do whatever you decided. Cancel credit cards, separate your funds from her, take back the checkbook, establish an allowance for her "needs" and the needs of the children. Make it clear to her that your generosity will only be available when she shows respect to you and the marriage.

Be polite. Be kind. Be firm. You owe it to yourself and your kids.

Yes, borrow away, I didn't invent the words I just put them together at that moment, they will be yours when YOU use them.

LB's were tough, tough to break the habits years (and childhood) had developed in me.

ENs were easier for me.

Being on here for a short while I've read many a guy-type person that has a hard time sorting out their WW's EN's. (A guy thing, could be?)

Some suggestions I could give you to fulfill EN's is to think back over the past few years to any statement she has said to you that started with
"I wish you would.............more." The more often she said it, the more likely it is one of her top 3 needs. And concentrate on only her top 3 EN's, don't try to fulfill too many (spread yourself too thin). If you are not fulfilling her top needs, she will resent the needs you are fulfilling though...I know, not fair.

As a hint, my top EN's are conversation, family commitment, and honesty.

If you have been dishonest in the past, this will be a BIG one for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> LB's are not and will never be steps needed as in your case to expose falsehoods that have direct impact on your...financial well being, health well being, and place of dwellling and being with your children...

though WS love to turn these things in to huge huge issues...it is really nothing more than smoke and mirrors to deflect from the reality that the BS needs to snoop based soley on WS dishonesty....

ironic doesn't even begin to cover this issue..
cause it takes a strong stomach for a BS to be told that snooping is deceiptful... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I'm just getting sick of the pain. I suppose there's a lot more to come in the future. Spying on her email, chat logs, etc. - I don't know if I can do that again - especially after I told her I wouldn't. I would like to remain as honest as possible... I'm just going on the very strong assumption (like, the phone records, the way she has been acting, etc) that the A is still going strong.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So the biggest tip here is for the BS to remain as emotionless as they can when being told they are spies... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> or breached trust.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> and if these aren't the perfect times to use orchids reverse babble..I dont I can't imagine when else....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If only I could perfect that RB. My wife is smarter than I am... What would I use: I already told her it wasn't her privacy I was worried about, it was her secrecy....

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">first off you speak your peace...
speak your pain of how much it hurts that she isn't taking you to the formal..

speak your pain of it hurts that she would take some one else...(do you even know this person???)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know the guy she SAYS she is taking.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">do not mention the underwear...that will just be a futile powestruggle...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can I accidentally spill bleach on it?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you also need to quit being so available to watch the children...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Er......why? I love being with them. I even homeschooled them for a while... Well, I'll take your word on that and see what I can do. I really have nowhere else to go except work, home and church, and the kids are at two of those with me....

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">when is the formal exactly...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, she dropped it on me so fast today that I didn't even ask...I'll find out....

David

I'm a newbie here so I may need straightened out... but in the book I just started to read, "His Needs, Her Needs," I think it suggests putting a time limit on Plan A - like 6 months. David - pat yourself on the back 100 times for sticking with it this long. I'm in Plan A and have set 3 months as my limit (March 18) before going to Plan B. Beyond that, I'm risking my emotional being and the emotional being of my children if I continue to put my heart on the line while he continues to pour his heart and other things to OW. (Sorry - hope I did not violate any rules with that last statement).... I love my husband very deeply and think we are making progress but I think 3 months is long enough for him to decide if he wants to try to save our marriage by working exclusively (NO OW) on it for some time period. The time period is there so we can critically look at our progress on a specific date and discuss how we feel and if we should continue trying to save the marriage. I truly believe he won't commit to working on our marriage unless she is out of picture. On/about March 18, if she is still in the picture, I go to plan B. I do this because I deeply love my husband - not because I don't. It is horrible for both of us now - well I guess not always for him but in general. I also can't be a good mother long-term if I'm torn about by OW being in the picture. We are making progress so maybe I won't need to go to Plan B. Cross your fingers, say a prayer if you pray please. We have a movie date this Sat. night so I'm hoping it is a pleasant experience for both of us. I don't plan to mention OW but maybe he'll surprise me and tell me things are over. I can hope, right? Maybe you can set a time limit with your wife - it does not have to be threatening - it can just be something like, if you can't start reaching out to me in X months, I think we need to critically evaluate whether a separation is needed."

David,

I understand your confusion.We have all been there.But trying to understand why a WS does what they do is an exercise in futility.We can blame brain altering chemicals(which are fact based proven by studies),blame unmet needs,the planets not being in alignment,whatever.But all I can say is if you stay here and keep following the plans and doing the best you can,you will come to realize that their is no SANITY to what they do,it's painful and selfish,it's immoral and callous,it's revolting and horrifying,you name it but it doesn't alter the course you must be on which is self preservation.If you allow this kind of wretchedness to consume your life then you will lose it.That is why one mantra here is take care of yourself.Also,keep busy.

Yes you are in pain and it makes it all the more harder to try and do these things we tell you.But you do it anyway to keep yourself afloat until you are stronger and get to a point,say,where I am,and you come to a much clearer understanding of who YOU are and what YOU want,not what the scheming WS is doing with their life.

Afterall,as long as I have been here,there is not one person that I can recall who chose to stay in the situation eternally.Some turn in after a few months,some deal with it for years.But,when each person's limits have been reached,that is where the coaster stops for good.

We all have faults David but choosing to commit adultery is never the answer,you know that from your own experience.You are not such a horrible husband that she needed to "return the favor".She is having her own problems come to the forefront and is not dealing with them appropriately.Simple,but painful as that.Getting broadsided every few weeks,or even every day is expected in this ugly mess.That is what many of us tried to prepare you for and what we warn many newbies of.It's never cut and dry,easily explainable or easily solved.

I know you are hurting.As Dr.Phil says,"You can't make sense out of nonsense" and it's true.When you stop trying to "figure out" the WS and put the main focus on yourself and children then the whole ordeal starts to be put into a different perspective.You start to think,"Hey,I don't deserve this painful mess anymore".You are not quite there yet.It's a process.Same for your WW who also cannot just up and leave.Most WS's don't.Some do,they are having exit A's and are just looking for that fast way out.WS's are confused and fog bound and know deep down that things really weren't so bad afterall.If they were they would have been gone long ago.There is the reluctance to give up what they have known for so long and the risk of losing it all is a serious threat they they don't always acknowledge up front but it's in the periphery.

Remember when I told you about my own siutation.How my WH never truly gave us a chance at a recovery? How he threw a beautiful family and 20year friendship away for some potential(he admitted it may not work out with the homewrecker) but how I was doing so much better now when I faced that fear of losing my WH?

There is a chance you may never get your WW back either or the chance to make things better,it's a possibility for each of us but it's why it's so important to follow the plans and have some semblance of order in the crazy world of adultery.One of you has to be doing something right and it should be you since the WS is too self absorbed.

THIS IS A PROBLEM WITH YOUR WW.Not you.We have all made mistakes but two wrongs do NOT make a right.You are trying to better yourself and take care of your kids.And,trying to be open to making your marriage better.When you know that you are doing all you can then you cannot fault yourself,OK? Even some of those in recovery STILL deal with painful cr** from their FWS's that just don't really understand hurts their BS.You have to learn how to "detach" from that a little,one way is to expect it as part of their behavior.When you know it's coming,it may hurt a little less.It's still sickening but part of the addiction.

If you have ever worked with addicts(I have a little and both my parents were alcoholics)you can glean a better understanding of just what these people will do and the depths they will sink just to feel that "high" and it's not pretty.

O

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tanelornpete:
Spying on her email, chat logs, etc. - I don't know if I can do that again - especially after I told her I wouldn't.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why in hell did you make her this promise??Nevermind, don't answer. You were cornered and were probably reacting to her world-famous anger.

You may need to tell her later on when you have retained a calm head ...(not now you're WAY too excited) ... that you cannot promise to ignore any of her actions/choices which appear to be weakening your marriage. Tell her you will do whatever it takes to strengthen the marriage. That releases you from the (dumb) promise you made her.

Pep

Hi verysadnow3:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are making progress so maybe I won't need to go to Plan B. Cross your fingers, say a prayer if you pray please. We have a movie date this Sat. night so I'm hoping it is a pleasant experience for both of us. I don't plan to mention OW but maybe he'll surprise me and tell me things are over. I can hope, right? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm hoping for you too!

I'm not telling you to snoop or not snoop...that decision is not based though on a WS perception that they don't like it..and it makes them mad...
too bad....

also I am not doubting for a second that you don't love spending time with your kids...but if it is coming down to you always watching the kids so WS can go out and about...then there is a role you are being sucked in to enabling...be creative about this...take the older one somewhere....where it's not so appropriate for the younger...remove you and the older child as baby sitter...just now and then...here and now....

enough that you strut your independance and autonomy as well ...

ARK

Hi pep

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may need to tell her later on when you have retained a calm head ...(not now you're WAY too excited) ... that you cannot promise to ignore any of her actions/choices which appear to be weakening your marriage. Tell her you will do whatever it takes to strengthen the marriage. That releases you from the (dumb) promise you made her.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was a dumb promise (I make a lot of those) but it feels so awful to be sneaking into my wife's life - it feels like I'm doing some kind of violating - I know that is too ironic to consider rationally. Still, it means I have to reinstall a keystroke logger, or set her computer up to remotely broadcast to mine, or hack her passwords again, and what I found last time hurt a 'bit' more than I was prepared for. I'd rather just trust her, dangit.

Davidiot