Reasoning with OPs never works. Heck, reasoning with fog-bound WSs (even foggy BSs!) doesn't work. The only recourse seems 2 be 2 appeal 2 the OPs positive human 2ualities 2 end the A, end contact, or perhaps drop off the face of the planet as a matter of principle.

Similarly, dealing with general contractors by applying concepts such as "reasonable" in coreographing discussions never works. I know. I've been trying 2 get through 2 my arrogant, lazy, good for no... (I'll stop) for nearly 3 years now. He's been "about 2 weeks from completing all open contracts" for almost a year now, and if he doesn't drop off the face of the planet soon, I think I will.

So, is there a better way 2 write a confrontation letter? I wonder. Following is an email I just sent my contractor, who insisted, just 5 days ago, in an arrogant reply to my coment that he might want to get his guys working to beat the predicted rain, that he "checks the weather regularly, and there is no rain in the forecast for the next week". The painter had 2 frantically touch up some remaining areas yes2rday (I know, I hope the rain doesn't wash the paint down the siding 2!), and RE2RNED this morning 2 do more work! Anyway, here's what I sent in response 2 his arrogant insistence that I was wrong, and that it was NOT predicted 2 start raining here in LA last night:

"[Contractor's name]:

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 18:16:45 --- [Contractor's name] wrote:

> 2long,
>
> I check the weather forcast regularly and it does
> not look like rain
> this week.

What we do at our house might be of some interest 2
you.

At home, we have several devices based on the Cathode
Ray 2be, a vacuum-sealed glass scanning apparatus
invented by the German scientist Karl Ferdinand Braun
in 1897, but much later developed in the late 30s as a
means of transmitting video and audio signals from
broadcast stations 2 homes equipped with receiving
devices, now referred 2 as "televisions", "2bes", or
"lobotomy boxes." An audio-only version of this
concept predates television by a number of years, and
is still available (and historically more portable in
its smaller forms). However, we will deal only with
CRT-based technology for the purpose of this
discussion.

TV's are wonderful devices, but provide little more
than mindless-entertainment unless used intelligently.
Thankfully, several broadcast source stations provide
useful information for people interested in things
like traffic reports, global terrorism warnings, and
even predictions of complex systems like the Earth's
weather. Again, for the purpose of this discussion,
we can ignore the otherwise very-useful contribution
2 future planning provided by traffic reports and
global terrorism warnings, and focus on weather
prediction.

Predicting the weather, which must take in2
consideration the subtle and VERY complex
interactions between the terrestrial atmosphere,
hydrosphere, lithosphere, axial tilt, distance from
the sun, and even sunspot cycles, is nonetheless
reasonable, given the high quality of daily empirical
observations recorded over the globe over the past few
centuries (less in the case of western North America).
Making long-range predictions beyond, say, a week or
so, is a risky proposition for weather forecasters 2
make, but within a week it is possible 2 make
reasonable predictions, based on monitoring progress
of things like frontal systems and the jet stream
across the Pacific Ocean 2ward the California Coast -
pertinent 2 this discussion.

Given the above knowledge, it is still up 2 the
television owner 2 determine when and how 2 ac2uire
these coming-week predictions, how 2 interpret them,
and what changes should be made in their daily
business and personal schedules in keeping with those
assessments. At our house, 42itously perhaps, our
day begins at about the same time that a number of Los
Angeles-based television news broadcasting stations
are presenting their best-guesses as 2 what the
weather might be like for our area (southern
Calilfornia) over the next 5 days (typically), with
tentative predictions going as far as a week or more
in2 the fu2re, with the obvious caveats necessarily
considered, given the decidedly non-linear, even
chaotic behavior of Earth's climate over longer time
frames.

It was 2 or three of these broadcasters that
informed us, several days ago, that it was likely 2
rain this week, possibly beginning on the night of the
25th of January, but certainly raining more or less
steadly over the course of the day by the time of this
writing.

I hope this helps,
-2long."

Hold me back, people... I'm sure I could come up with something similar in tone and entirely appropriate 2 the OP!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

-ol' 2long

<small>[ January 26, 2005, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2Long, you made me laugh. I've often wanted to write such epistles. The trouble is, though it may make you feel better, it seems unlikely that it will have any other positive effect on the situation.

I'm really not sure what I'd do with your GC, though, since it appears that NOTHING will really move him.

Double post... perhaps I'll insert some of my favorite lyrics instead of just leaving it blank.


And when we meet
Which I'm sure we will
All that was there
Will be there still
I'll let it pass
And hold my tongue
And you will think
That I've moved on....

I will go down with this ship
And I won't put my hands up and surrender
There will be no white flag above my door
I'm in love and always will be


Not appropriate for me anymore, but I know there are many out there who hold onto things like this like the talismans they are.

<small>[ January 26, 2005, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Just J ]</small>

Just J:

Well, copies of anything I might hypothetically write would go 2 his supervisor, my W, and my W's best friend (who doesn't know about the A - denied a rumor about it and wasn't corrected by my W!).

I hope my hunch lately is NOT due 2 renewed contact, but due 2 serious withdrawl setting in, but I'm starting 2 wonder. I suppose it could be my lack of experience with her in withdrawl and my paranoia that's got me thinking the way I am, but...

As for the GC. Yeah. But one way or the other, he's GONE in days, not weeks. We'll owe him a few K IF he finishes everything. If he doesn't, it's in the realm of "worth it" for small claims court. If he tries 2 sue US, we've got records of how late he is/has been on everything. The "oldest" outstanding contract will be 3 yrs old in March, and it was originally scheduled 2 be done in 3 months.

-ol' 2long

2long,

At the risk of killing another one of your thread's...

I think your energy would be better spent on writing a letter to your wife. A letter from your heart. Telling her of your fears, of your hopes, of what you need from her right now (guarenttee of NC for life), etc.

What would a request to OM to sever all contact accomplish? This must come from your wife, in my opinion. Otherwise what would it mean?

Well I think I'll follow JJ's lead and post some lyrics which come to mind.

"Jolene, jolene, jolene, jolene
I’m begging of you please don’t take my man
Jolene, jolene, jolene, jolene
Please don’t take him just because you can
Your beauty is beyond compare
With flaming locks of auburn hair
With ivory skin and eyes of emerald green
Your smile is like a breath of spring
Your voice is soft like summer rain
And I cannot compete with you, jolene

He talks about you in his sleep
There’s nothing I can do to keep
From crying when he calls your name, jolene

And I can easily understand
How you could easily take my man
But you don’t know what he means to me, jolene

Jolene, jolene, jolene, jolene
I’m begging of you please don’t take my man
Jolene, jolene, jolene, jolene
Please don’t take him just because you can

You could have your choice of men
But I could never love again
He’s the only one for me, jolene

I had to have this talk with you
My happiness depends on you
And whatever you decide to do, jolene

Jolene, jolene, jolene, jolene
I’m begging of you please don’t take my man
Jolene, jolene, jolene, jolene
Please don’t take him even though you can
Jolene, jolene"

Just J, weaver:

Cool lyrics!

Yeah, I shouldn't give OM anymore acknowledgement of his existence. He just might take that personally, and exist!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I do feel like I'm waiting for another shoe 2 drop, though (just how many feet do FWW's have?). I do like the idea of a letter. I almost initiated a discussion with my W this morning about her not feeling safe with me, intending 2 ask her again what I can do 2 help her feel safer and suggest ways she could make ME feel safe, 2.

But I didn't, and here's why (and I don't think it was CA this time, at least not much). I need 2 talk 2 Penny about what I know, but I haven't got an appointment yet (though I'm working on it). This weekend, I would have called it almost an emergency need 2 talk 2 her, but it's not anymore. Things are still uncertain, but they're not out of control by any means - I'm a lot calmer than I was. I want 2 talk 2 Penny though, and get her take on the developments and epiphanies I've had, before I say or do anything that might be inadvertently harmful.

My W is definitely distant these days. Biggest clue came last night. Yes2rday afternoon, I did an internet search for the name of a previous owner of our house, and finally had some success after trying for almost 8 years. I left a message with the grandson, who's still alive, and he called me back. We had an amazing conversation, and he's going 2 send us copies of pic2res taken around the house as far back as around 1900. This is HUGE progress for us, and yet my W didn't say a whole lot about it, like her mind has been elsewhere. Whether it's on OM or fixing the house and our D's wedding coming up, I can't be positive, but my hunch tells me that OM is still a factor. I need 2 find out whether it's because of withdrawl or continued contact, but I also need 2 decide whether it matters - whether I can be patient for withdrawl for my family's benefit. If contact is still going on, I need 2 make a fateful decision in the short term, and I want it 2 not come across as an ultimatum, whatever it is, because I want it 2 be of some positive use 2 her as well.

ramble, ramble, ramble. What was the 2uestion? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

Just get some magnetic door signs made up - and put them on all the contractor trucks.
The blank is the company name.

________ Company
We may be slow
But we do bad work !


As far as RM,
The past few years, it looked like he wasn't making first contact, but only sending replies. If that is the case, I don't think communicating with him would do much good.

From the little bit I saw of communication on his end, he seems to want to be done with it.

There are many things that could be on your W's mind, I wish she would talk to you.

"You seem to be distant these last few days, is there anything I can help with?

SS

From what I have learned here on MB ... the "withdrawl" phase should long be over for your W if there has actually been NC. It's been months and months of NC as far as you know, hasn't it?

Pep

SS:

You're probably right about RM, I mean OM. But he DID tell her that my confrontation letter 2 him last March "gave him hope" that there was still a chance for their relationship.

I do ask my W that kind of 2uestion. No response. That's why I need 2 talk 2 Penny about what 2 do. Doesn't work if one of us insists on still avoiding conflict and doesn't answer direct 2uestions, even seemingly innocuous ones like that.

I also like the idea of the email, but that was this morning. Just a few minutes ago, I had 2 find a pic2re of some detail in the attic, because she said that the carpenter is doing it wrong, and I found one that shows she's right. But she said she can't decide whether 2 let him finish it like that, so they get done sooner, or make him change it and maybe be around longer. I called her back 2 offer 2 suggest that he finish it like he's doing, and I'll make a minor change (not 2 time-consuming) after they're gone 2 more approximate the original detail. But I couldn't get that out. She was 2 snippy.

Like it's my fault that he did it wrong and that I seem 2 be unwilling 2 drop everything 2 run home and show him? And I was even willing 2 go home and do that, but she never let me get it out.

I just got fed up and got off the phone as quickly as I could. I'll still go home and show him the pic2re, but I'll probably come back and work late.

I really hope this is withdrawl, I really do. Because it pukes.

-ol' 2long

2long, I haven't kept up lately but know your sitch is similar to mine. You mention W might be going through some withdrawal though you have nothing to compare it to. Well I will eventually put this out to the broader audience of MB's and consider the responses on how to best handle my sitch, but meantime thought it might be of some use to you.

You remember my W had ONS with Poolteam partner almost 3 years ago. This was followed by lopsided EA for another 2 plus years. Well I had felt that the EA had finally died out about 3 or 4 months ago. While there was still weekly contact there were no more phone calls and W started to treat me a little better etc. I lamented the fact that I'd never get the closure I was looking for. But about 10 days ago her pool team had a meeting to decide the future of the team. W was not invited to the meeting and only received a tip from one of her friends that the meeting was to consider asking W or another woman to leave the team. W didn't wait and took the insult very hard. She decided to quit the team. Which honestly to me seemed anti-climatic. HOWEVER, I was extremely surprised to see W fall into quite a deep depression. Turning to alcohol to ease her pain and generally moping around all day long. I have tried to be supportive but not pushing much. Just let her go through her grieving. I suppose my point is that I underestimated how intense the EA is even when it seems like it's dead. And also to offer some hope that even after so long the healing can begin. But like you a certain apathy starts to set in and I wonder if I'm ready to begin the hard work of recovery with any renewed vigor. I will watch closely as she works through her grief and see if I am treated any better. I did ask W if she quit the team for me or for her. She responded that she quit for her. She couldn't even give me that satisfaction. Anyway it sure is a hard road back. Good luck in your struggle and I'll keep you posted should anything significant happen.

WOE

Hi WOE:

Boy, what an interesting 2rn of events! I think that you should still be grateful that she quit even if it was for her. After all, you want her 2 want 2 be with you because she believes it's good for her, right? (did that make sense?).

I believe it's possible that my W's behavior is due 2 withdrawl, but so much of it is a continuation of her behavior before and after d-day that I can't be sure.

Thos and I have talked about how detachment can be a 2-edged sword: You feel better because you aren't hurt so easily, but you also feel bad because you can now take or leave the M, seemingly also easily (but not really). And that makes you wonder if you'll be there for her now that she might be receptive.

Life is strange sometimes.
-ol' 2long

2long, very well said. You're right that I should be grateful for finally receiving what I have for so long prayed for. I think you and Thos have it right. Anyway I'll keep you posted. I suppose it's more like quarterly updates rather than daily at this stage.

WOE

22bbll33 ppoosstt!

(I hate it when that happens!)

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Thought of something as I was driving home about 2.5 hours ago:

This pertains 2 me, but 2 anybody else as well, particularly CAers that end up ending their Ms or having As (and maybe ending their Ms) without doing the requisite prerequisites first (now was that a clever piece of redundancy or what!?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ):

If you (me, you, the guy at the gas station, whatever) don't feel like you're being listened 2, even if you feel you've "never" been listened 2, you don't get 2 give up trying 2 make a breakthrough, because if you do, you'll just build resentment and wind up doing things 2 each other out of spite - you'll bog down in an endless cycle of negative reaction rather than positive response.

(and you all need 2 pat me on the back. I think that's the first time, in over 6000 posts, that I've figured out how 2 bold text!)

I didn't have an A, my W did. But I can't just 2uit trying 2 get my concerns across and give up, because that's what she did 14 years ago when this all began. That was my negative contribution 2 the state of our M that led 2 her choice 2 have an A. I'd be remiss if I did anything - settled for a half-a$$ed M or DV'd - without fixing at least MY conflict avoidance MO first.

I need 2 have a convo with my W about that.

-ol' 2long

We had a good talk this morning at our house. My W initiated.

She said she doesn't feel safe because of the blowup last year (the one where I'd been told she was back in contact 2 plan for the field trip last March). She doesn't feel safe now because she feels like I coerce her 2 have SF. I would have maybe used the phrase "gently persuade" at the strongest, but I will accept that her choice describes how secure she does or doesn't feel. She believes it's a life-long problem of hers that she needs 2 move beyond. She didn't "blame me" per se, but she wasn't exactly in a place where she could appreciate that *I* don't feel safe with her either.

I told her again that I was upset last year because she no longer needed 2 have contact with OM, but chose 2 do so without discussing it with me first (I would have said no). She said she was doing "pretty well with the friendship" up until a year ago, when we had the "blowup."

So, we're talking at any rate.

I didn't ask her whether she's back in contact with OM, or ever stopped. There wasn't time as I had 2 hurry in 2 work (fun, but very time-critical!). I suspect she is, but her behavior lately could still just as easily be due 2 withdrawl.

HeckifIknow.
-ol' 2long

Forgot:

She also said she stopped seeing her IC. That they kept just repeating the same thing over again and getting nowhere.

Duh. I could have predicted that. Considering that one-sided recovery, even with the best coach around, isn't an adequate substi2te for MC or joint coaching (or communication between spouses), it's not surprising she feels that way. I feel that way, 2.

I will ask her if she'd be interested in MC 2gether, but I don't expect she's ready yet.

-ol' 2long

Well that's a very encouraging opening.

Now you have all weekend to keep the open communciation going.

As a woman I would suggest that you keep the convo going as gently, consistently and persistently as possible.

With my ex, I really needed him to keep it up when he was trying to communicate with me. I did not feel safe with him (he was a cheater) so it would have took a few days to show me that it wasn't just some whim and he would go back to ignoring me shortly. Unfortunately he had an attention span of about two days, when I needed three (or more) so we never really got to recovering.

I did get to the point of allowing myself to feel positive attraction emotions towards him again though.

As far as being coersed for SF. We were able to solve this problem by him telling me that he would wait for me to initiate so I did not feel any pressure. (pressure to me at that time killed any desire I had). No MB principles back then for us so I didn't understand EN's, probably the same for your wife.

The nicer he was to me, the more he engaged me and truly showed me he cared and adored me, the more I wanted to initiate SF.

I am talking about my DD's dad here when we did get back together for awhile but then I decided it was too much to forget about his affair.

Just a perspective, use or not as it fits.

And good luck this weekend 2long. Hope it turns out well for you both.

Oh, and one more thing (now that I've appointed myself thorn in your side <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) next time you get a convo going with her like that, where she engages-

CALL IN! Keep it going, make a day of it.

The world won't stop if Mr & Mrs. 2long don't make it to work because they are talking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

please don't let me kill this thread, please don't let me kill this thread...

weave:

I had started a reply 2 your first post, but had 2 run 2 ingest mass quantities before the next "fire drill" hits soon...

I couldn't call in, because the world WOULD have come 2 a hault if I hadn't hyed myself off 2 the car when I did! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (ac2ally it wasn't the world, really. At least not this one. I can't say more, unless you want 2 ask me at **edit**).

I definitely won't initiate SF anymore (for a good period of time, at least). I'll wait for her 2 make it clear it's what she wants. But she hasn't initiated in a while, and even then it wasn't rewarding after. Problem is that I have reluctantly had 2 admit that SF is one of my top ENs, my libido is going nuts again (I was "okay" with very infrequent SF for about the past year). But I would never cheat, it's far 2 painful. And like I said 2 redhat a while ago (but deleted), it's a good thing there aren't any sheep around these parts! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

My M and fam are far more important 2 me than SF, though. I would never have thought my "persuasion" over the past year could possibly be received as coersion. But it's what she says, so I have 2 respect that.

I just hope someday soon she takes in2 consideration that I don't feel safe with her, not knowing whether she's still letting her "friendship" interfere with our M. OM must GO. FOREVER.

-ol' 2long