Time for an update...as always, I welcome any opinions anyone might care to share.

FU has a hobby. What it is is unimportant. She met 4 of her 8 partners on messageboards which were focussed on this hobby.

She decided to write a book about this hobby a couple of months ago. She had been calling a local store which dealt with this hobby and supposedly asking the proprietor questions about the hobby.
The store which she was calling is one where she went post D-Day to borrow the owner's computer to maintain contact with a few of the OM's.

When she told me that she had been calling him, I told her that it made me uncomfortable and very much made me feel unsafe. She said she had not thought about it affecting me in that fashion, and wouldn't call him anymore. This was about 2 weeks ago.

Wednesday of this week we were talking on the phone while she was at work. She casually mentioned that she had picked up writing again and was planning to make some calls for research. I told her that I still felt nervous with her calling her hobbyist buddy that owned the store which she had been speaking to, and was not really comfortable with her calling anyone that I don't know for research or any other purpose.

Well, that didn't go over well. Turns out she has a LOT of resentment towards me because she has "given up so much that is important to her" for me. I told her that I accept her feelings about curtailing her hobbies, but that I do not feel guilty about my feelings nor about asking that she not seek out other men to share her hobbies with.

Things got a little dramatic after that. She threatened to burn her book. I told her it was hers to do with what she wished, but if it were me that I would just try alternate avenues of research. Such as making those calls with me present, or letting me look things up on the internet that she had specific questions about(I do not share her interest in this hobby, but would like to be able to at least hold intelligent conversation about it). This was not suitable because "it would take away from US time"...even if I did it while she was at work.

That led us straight into her resenting that I feel threatened by her getting on the computers while I am not there. Again, I do not challenge what she feels, but it in no way invalidates my feelings. She said that it is always her that has to give things up and that it is not fair. Why am I allowed to get on the computer whenever I want and she isn't? I said that I Am not her father, and haven't and won't FORBID her to do ANYTHING. I just let her know what her actions lead to me feeling and thinking. IF she chooses to consider my feelings, I am very grateful. IF she chooses not to, I am perfectly able do decide how to deal with that as well.

How do we POJA that I am not enthusiastic about her being on the computer when I am not beside her, and she is not enthusiastic about staying off of it? Am I out of line here?

I can't help but think that if she were doing (or not doing) these things for US, for OUR relationship, there wouldn't be much in the way of resentment. I know I do not resent her for the opportunities for wierd freaky SF with other partners that I have passed up because of being committed to US. I don't regret for a minute giving up my time with my guy friends to spend it with her instead. My choices, ya know? Not like anyone MAKES either of us do anything.

She then said that my boundaries constantly remind her that I do not trust her. That she feels like she is doing all the work, and not seeing any measureable reward. I don't think she realises that for me to touch her without flinching is sometimes a little rough. That me believing that there is enough between us to justify staying together with maybe 4 months or a REAL relationship and 2 and a half YEARS of lies takes a certain amount of effort. That there is part of me that is screaming "YOU ARE AN IDIOT OAK" when I say ILY. I have tried to express these things in non-LB ways, but I don't think that I am being understood.

Apparently I am to blame for her not having sufficient entertainment in her recreational activities, which leads her to feeling very empty.

For me, if I allowed my hobbies to be more important to me that our relationship, or our son...if I found my worth in what I do for kicks instead of who I AM...I think I would feel empty too. Instead of saying all this, tho, I just said "I understand how you feel."

There were apologies after she calmed down, and that helps. But I still fell like I am being kicked in the teeth when she tells me how it is MY fault she isn't happy at a particular moment. While I want to help, and have a huge urge to FIX THINGS, I don't have a magic wand. Maybe the hardest thing for me to say is "I don't know that there is anything I can do to change how you feel while remaining true to myself."

Thanks for reading.

-OAK

Hey OAK,

Well, I'm sure you'll get some more responses later on, but I thought that I'd share some of my thoughts with you...

If my W were still engaged in an activity that was used to enhance or allow the A to occur, then I would be VERY upset if she continued with it. Bob Pure's wife had her A with her karate coach... needles to say, Bob isn't very comfortable with her participating in Karate... I don't have an answer for you.... other than you both need to work out something that you both agree on and can live with...

It sounds like FU is getting a little ahead of you in that she most likely feels that you should be able to move forward more than you have. This is fairly typical... She will have to learn to give you the time you need to sort through all of your feelings and to grieve your losses...

You've pretty much described many of the 'rollercoaster' feelings that you guys will go through as you rebuild your M.

If I remember correctly, you guys are in MC, right? Ask your MC for some ideas on how you can work through these issues...

Semper Fi,
RIF

I wish we were in MC, RIF...lack of money prevents it. This place(and each other) are the sum and total of our recovery resources.

I am not really sure about the whole rollercoaster thing...my moods are way, way more even than they were a few months back. No more bleakness or fury,at least..am pretty thankful for that. I hated feeling like I lacked emotional control over myself.

And I think you are right about her being further along than I am. Although I would say we aren't even on the same road from what she has told me and what I know of myself.

Being in different places is sort of to be expected, I guess...knowing that doesn't help as much as I would like.

-OAK

<small>[ January 28, 2005, 04:53 AM: Message edited by: OnceAKnight ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wish we were in MC, RIF...lack of money prevents it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not trying to be flippant, but add up what it will cost you to find a good MC and then add up how much a divorce will cost you... If you really can't afford a MC, then at least get some good books (Surviving an Affair, His Needs-Her Needs both by Harley; and Torn Asunder by Dave Carder)

The rollercoaster feelings are the normal "ups" and "downs" that you will experience. One day you'll love her, the next day you can't stand to be in the same room with her... You'll both be able to really connect and communicate - then other times it's like your both speaking a different language...

I know that FU posts here and she's been getting some good advice... you guys are going to have many ups and downs... you're going to feel like you want to give up... you're going to wonder why you're even bothering with all of the pain, and hurt, and anger...

I guess the best advice I can give you is to 1) decide if you want to rebuild your M. If you do, then 2) Make the commitment to rebuild your M... and then stick with it... this means that there's no turning back. You can't threaten to D FU... it's your choice, so make the choice, then stick with it. 3) Please try to find a pro-marriage MC... it will keep you both focused on the issues that you need to work through.

You and FU CAN rebuild your M... it's tough work... it's not easy... it's NOT pain free... it doesn't happen overnight... but as long as you are commited to FU and BOTH of you are working on rebuilding, you guys can have a M that's better than either of you ever dreamed it could be... I know because my W and I have done it.

Semper Fi,
RIF

OAK - The really good news is that you are both communicating. You are talking, and beginning to understand each other, rather than burying the thoughts and feelings. Sure, it's a little rocky to do at times, but it's a small downpayment on the longterm benefits of such honesty and openness from both of you.

Your request to help her do the research is both valid and helpful to both of you. "Time away" from the two of you is not necessary. A "hobby" can fit easily into the category of "Recreational Activities" even if one of you is not head over heals into the hobby.

But the best thing to come out of this is you are both talking about how you FEEL, a very hard thing to do for most of us and a very good thing to do so no one has to play at being a "mindreader." I'd call this a "glass half full" sort of thing.

God bless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wednesday of this week we were talking on the phone while she was at work. She casually mentioned that she had picked up writing again and was planning to make some calls for research. I told her that I still felt nervous with her calling her hobbyist buddy that owned the store which she had been speaking to, and was not really comfortable with her calling anyone that I don't know for research or any other purpose.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought that the issue was with the particular hobbyist, because I borrowed his computer to email one of my A's (he had no idea that is what I was doing on there, I just asked to borrow his comp for a few minutes). I offered to call a different place of business, maybe look for a female to gain the specific bit of knowledge I was needing, but apparently it's being on the phone at all to anyone that isn't my family or my best friend that's the problem here... wish I had known that or I would never have brought it up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but that I do not feel guilty about my feelings nor about asking that she not seek out other men to share her hobbies with.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wasn't seeking out someone to share my hobby with, I was looking for a specific piece of terminology that I didn't know. Not even to discuss, just getting a specific name from a professional. I see a difference, I suppose OAK doesn't... there may not be one for some people I suppose, but there's a big distinction for me. It's called "self-control".


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said that I Am not her father, and haven't and won't FORBID her to do ANYTHING. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, he doesn't forbid me to do anything... but I don't feel comfortable getting on the computer because he has made it very very apparent how he feels about it.... it is an "unsaid rule" for me becauase I'm sick of doing things that bother him, since a lot of what I do seems to sometimes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told her it was hers to do with what she wished, but if it were me that I would just try alternate avenues of research. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My avenues of research are hobbyist stores, the internet, and the library. Two of those are right out because they make OAK uncomfortable, and he has shown little interest in talking about the hobby for long enough for me to ask him to look things up for me. I can't go to the library for lack of time. What alternate avenues? I don't see too many that don't involve hurt feelings at this point, and I have exhausted myself looking for them. I don't want to take time away from our relationship to devote to a hobby that he all but hates and has shown me very little interest in, which is why I was trying to think of ways to do it in ways that didn't encroach on our time together.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Turns out she has a LOT of resentment towards me because she has "given up so much that is important to her" for me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not so much that I resent OAK specifically, rather I resent the situation; that I had to change how I do things and look at things and think about things, my hobbies and interests, the things I do for fun in my spare time, because OAK has managed to find something to say about almost every new hobby I have engaged myself in. I have tried my damnedest to find something that doesn't remind him of the horrible things I did to him, and I have not had any luck in that. I'm not talking about the things that we do together or things that even pertain to our relationship, but things I do in the 8 hours that I'm at work, or the 5 hours that it's just me and our son while he's asleep.... he has never shown enthusiastic interest in any hobby I have except reading, and I'm not as enthusiastic as he is about that... not to mention that reading is by nature an antisocial thing when you're doing it.... He hasn't had to give up any of his individual hobbies or interests, and I have all but given up the pursuit of all of mine, to show him that nothing is more important to me than his well-being.... and I feel like he's telling me even that's not enough to show him...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She then said that my boundaries constantly remind her that I do not trust her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not the boundaries themselves, as everyone has them... the fact that they're so extreme is what bothers me. I feel like I risk triggering something like this every time the phone rings, or every time I leave the house for any reason, or any time I don't have supper completely done by the time he wakes up in the evening, or if the clothes aren't clean, or if I spend an extra 10 minutes waking up in the mornings, or if I forget something at the grocery store.... I'm so scared to death that I'm going to cause another incident, where he feels violated and I feel guilty and ashamed and cry at him for hours and he gets upset at me for not respecting him and his boundaries and one or the other of us posts for advice because we've hit another wall... I feel scared to death all the time because of that.... because the walls are set so far out there and I never know when I'm going to cause all that grief to come crashing down... Not calling one hobbyist turns into not calling any hobbyist to ask a professional question, etc. I had no idea that it was that extreme of a boundary. I thought it was for the individual in question, not everyone that has ever ever had any interest in the hobby I have. I feel like I've been walled into the house, and even then I can't use the phone or the computer and nobody can ever visit... (yes I know that is irrational of me to think, but that's really how I feel sometimes...)

For the record, he has never ever told me that I can't do these things. I just feel very paranoid about doing them because I don't want to do anything to hurt him or make him relive all that crap again in his mind.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For me, if I allowed my hobbies to be more important to me that our relationship, or our son...if I found my worth in what I do for kicks instead of who I AM...I think I would feel empty too. Instead of saying all this, tho, I just said "I understand how you feel." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not more important. Sometimes separate, but nowhere near as important. And I don't feel empty... in fact, I have all kinds of very dirty things I could say to you right now for a)making me out to be shallow and petty in front of the hundreds of people that visit this site, and b)for lying to me about your feelings on this particular subject. It's quite obvious that you DON'T understand me sometimes.

No I don't understand how it feels to be hurt and betrayed like I did to OAK. I don't understand how it feels to be reminded in everything that I could possibly do, to OAK, around OAK, with OAK, or not even concerning him, of the affairs that I had. No, I can't understand that.... but I don't think he can understand what it's like to be afraid to leave the house, even if it's just to walk the dog because at one point he accused me of finding someone in the neighborhood to get with because I didn't have my internet lovers anymore.... I'm constantly afraid of being spoken to like that again but I make myself get up and go to work and the store, no matter how horribly scary that is... I had even found the courage to think about my hobby again, but now I'm back to being scared to death of it even crossing my mind....

I sm not being figurative. These things really do scare the hell out of me, to the point that my blood pressure has been through the roof for months, and I jump out of my skin when the phone rings. But I've learned to DEAL with it and go on with life, and I feel like he hasn't. I suppose we are on different spots in the road after all.

We all have things that we have to deal with in this situation... even the betrayer.

-FallingUp, a little peeved

I told FU that I had posted about the conversation we had. Warned her that it might be uncomfortable reading it, but that she was welcome to if she felt she should.

I want to apologise if the comment about feeling empty was disrespectful. It was not meant to be, but only to show my thoughts.

It is interesting to read about her fears. They don't seem to affect her in our day to day lives, so I had no idea they were that strong.

Maybe I am too controlling. Perhaps I should just "get over it" and not concern myself with who she talks or types to, under what circumstances, or what is said. Or what she does, with whom, or when. What business is it of mine, after all?

She isn't responsible for my happiness. And she absolutely does not answer to me unless she chooses to. It seems, from reading this, that showing consideration to this extent for me is causing her a great deal of grief for what appears to be very little benefit to her. That she feels more trapped than loved.

I need to think about this.

-OAK

OAK,

It was hard for me to get to a comfortable place with my guilt to hear my H's concerns. I always felt backed into a corner, and not trusted.

Well, duh, he didn't trust me, and for good reason. I was always defensive and wanting more space, but as a consequence to my action of an A, I was not allowed it. I understood it, I respected it, but I hated it.

Your W, needs to rationally look at what you are saying. Of course it is a trust issue, she has had multiple A's, (correct?) you are still feeling vulnerable, you need her to do everything she can to make you feel secure.

POJA, is simple, if it makes you uncomfortable as the BS, then the FWS, should not be doing it, if they are really trying to rebuild the M.

KY

FU forgive me, I am an Idiot, I did not read your post before I posted. I apologies.

Sounds like you guys are communicating, try to be more specific.

OAK, what can she do that would be okay with you, or is it just the hobby itself that you are not okay with???

FU, I have given up much because of my A. I play v-ball, and love it, I scrap and love it, I'm not sure what I would do if I wasn't able to do them with my H being uncomfortable.

My H still has trust issues, I'm much less defensive, so it does get better, it is all a word thing for us. Maybe you can tell OAK what you would rather hear him say, then maybe you won't be so defensive.

The more trust is build, the easier it becomes, it takes time and honorable actions.

You guys are getting there, you both want the same thing, now be patient and kind with one another, and allow your hearts to catch up with your brain.

KY

Hey Guys -

Well, first off, I'm NOT a marriage counselor! I can only offer what I've experience and what I've learned while my W and I were in MC...

It appears that you guys are reading way too much into what the other one says or does... Now, FU, this may hurt, but I'm going to be honest... OAK shouldn't trust you. You haven't acted in a trustworthy manner... He CAN learn to trust you again, but it's going to take time.... It's going to take consistent, honest actions by you over a long period of time before he can even begin to trust you.

You made the comment of "But I've learned to DEAL with it and go on with life, and I feel like he hasn't. I suppose we are on different spots in the road after all.".... you are exactly right... OAK hasn't learned to DEAL with it. His entire world was turned upside down. He doesn't know what he can or can't believe in. The most sacred things that he believes in have been shattered.

FU, please don't take my comments as 2x4s.... but you must understand where OAK is at this point... he's hurt... he's wounded... he obviously loves you enough to stay and work on rebuilding the M with you... be patient with him and love him. Reassure him that you are commited to the M and to him... and do it often!

Now OAK... there are some things that you can do to "help"... Accept FU's words at face value for now... then see if her actions match her words... notice that I didn't say TRUST FU's words... remember, she must act in a trustworthy manner over a period of time for you to even be able to start trusting her... By accepting her words at face value, you are not "agreeing" with her... you are not "condoning" her A or the actions that took place... you are mearly accepting what she tells you.

One exercise our MC gave us was to repeat what we thought the other person was telling us... I'd say something to my W and then she would say "RIF, this is what I heard you say and this is what I think you are trying to say to me...." If it was what I was trying to say, then great... if not, then i would calmly say, "No, I ment to say...." The next time you guys are discussing A related "stuff"... try this and see how it works....

Also, set aside a specific time.... say after your son is in bed, and before you are both too tired to talk about the A "stuff".... give yourselves an hour (use an egg timer or an alarm clock)... and discuss the A "stuff". Once the hour is up, then set the A "Stuff" aside until the next "session".

We didn't do so good when we first started rebuilding... I'd wake up at 0300 and wake my W up and start grilling her with questions... But our MC gave us this exercise and it helped us keep our A "stuff" talks focused.

OAK & FU, I know that if you both could wave a magic wand and make all of this stuff dissapear, that you BOTH would do it.... well, there's no magic wand... You guys are BOTH going to have to deal with the issues... but at the same time, you need to learn to do fun stuff together as well... take a walk together.... spend time together with your son... in other words... LIVE! Don't let all of this A stuff consume you... take things slowly and don't try to "fix" everything in one day...

Let us know how you're doing...

Semper Fi,
RIF

OAK. As RIF intimated I can relate to your situation. Squid has been vicious in her defence of her sports involvement until very recently - its been a part of her life for 24 years so thats understandable.

It helped sooth the situation once I explianed to her that the main reason for my askingher to withdraw from sports tournaments was to stop me from worrying, NOT because I thought she would restart an affair with OM if she met him.

She MIGHT do that but the one thing for sure is I woudl be very very hurt of they met even platonically. Their dallinace emotionally raped me and probably made God wince. I need not to live in fear of being hurt imminently again. Squid can help me with that, and frankly if her her own HOBBY enjoyment is more important than my safety, we have no recovery and we will not recover.

I deserve to not be made to resurrect that hurt by Squid taking extreme precautions to avoid meeting hinm again. It is not a 'punishment' to stop her enjoying herself - its a bad circumstance for her that she chose an affair partner from the people she found the most spare-time fulfilment with.

Squid is not happy but has given up tournaments and is also backing off Karate training to spend time with me ( without my asking - NICE!).

ALSO we are moving Squid back into paid employment by investing in a small business she has wanted to do for years. She will earn the cash, I'll run the books. We'll do this TOGETHER.

She is very excited about this and we both hope this will scratch her itch for quality time away from the family.
No guarantees but we'll see if it works.

I can see how hard this is for FWS like FU, but I think we must help them see how necessary this is for us, and NOT in spite.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by B0B PURE*:

ALSO we are moving Squid back into paid employment by investing in a small business she has wanted to do for years. She will earn the cash, I'll run the books. We'll do this TOGETHER.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SEE ... you "fingered" it out sans my advice! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep (happy dance)

OAK & FU,

It is so wonderful to see you both posting here.

Here's my advice. FU, I know you want to be able to engage in hobbies. You're probably like me. You need things to keep you interested, keep the brain busy.

But OAK is still raw. You're rushing things if engage in an activity that triggers him right now. Triggers are weird. One of my H's OW was from England and two years into recovery I still don't like English breakfast tea. But a lot of other triggers don't bother me anymore. Our emotions kick in over some pretty irrational things. And this hobby trigger is a pretty rational one.

OAK, I'm assuming that your objection isn't to have her avoid any involvement in this hobby again in her entire life, right?

If not, can you two POJA a leave of absence from it? Being much further in recovery than the two of you, I can see that another year or two would be reasonable. Trust takes that long to rebuild. You've gotta take a lot of baby steps and do more healing before you get there. Is a year or two away from the hobby too much to ask in return for rebuilding a marriage that you'll treasure for a lifetime? I'm the BS and I gave up a very treasured activity for the last two years because it took up valuable marriage time and energy. Some day, I'll probably ease back into it if we POJA that.

In the meantime, I have a homework assignment for you two. Brainstorm time. Think up a large list of hobbies and activities the two of you can try together. Everything from the mundane to the ridiculous. Bowling, skydiving, scrapbooking, karaoke, pinball, painting, stamp collecting, square dancing, ethnic cooking, rock climbing, opera, zoos, oragami, etc. Let no activity be too ridiculous to put on the list. Then the two of you can go through and POJA how you feel about each one. Try a new one out every week as part of your 15 hours and see how the two of you like it. If you try enough, eventually there will be some that you both enjoy. And building new memories together is a great way to help the bad old memories fade.

Dobie

Pep you're such a smart@ss....

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

{{{pep}}}

I’ve followed this thread and others you two have posted, off and on for a while and I find it interesting that the two of you seem to be making the same mistake…together! LOL And why do I find this humorous? Could it be because that the one thing you both seem to do best together, as a team, is avoid dealing with the real issues at hand, instead choosing to argue about minutia.

So FU has accepted ownership for her actions and has decided “in her own way” to behave in an appropriate manor going forward….The key words in this sentence of course are in quotations. Maybe what you two need to POJA is the,*who gets to define what appropriate behavior going forward* is.

FU, it’s wonderful that you have accepted responsibility for your actions but it’s not that wonderful for OAK! He still needs to deal with the residual effects of your past indiscretions while being insecure about what you do going forward.

You, are saying that “I did it and it was bad and I’ll never do it again NOW trust me.” If I were OAK I would respond with a very simple one word question; “Why?” Why should I trust you?

FU, if you hang around these boards long enough you read about one constant issue that never goes away; particularly for couples trying to reconcile. It’s the *IT* issue as in they (the WS) still don’t get *IT*! How it hurt, why the BS is still afraid and why it takes so long to get over what happened. And you can’t really understand because it didn’t happen to you. If it had, you would might be banging your head against the nearest wall while screaming up at the moon with a why question of your own. But of course you can’t understand it anymore then a man will ever really understand what a woman feels while giving birth. And so OAK goes on dealing with *it* and is frustrated because you can’t understand *it.* You of course, think you do understand so get frustrated wanting *it* to finally go away so you can have some normalcy returned to your life.

I read this post and the frustration on both your parts is being expressed so tangibly that if it were light, it would make you both blind. To me this means that you and OAK are both still searching for ways to deal with all of this but as I see it, the problem is that you two aren’t doing it together! Get it? TOGETHER! That’s the key to all of this. Doing it together!

It’s not about you having a hobby and him being controlling or not trusting or not supportive; all of which may be true by the way. It’s about two individuals who are facing the same problem from different perspectives as INDIVIDUALES and thinking that they are making compromises on each other’s behalf, while in fact they are simply going through the motions.

If it were me, what I would do is sit down together and prioritize. Make a list and write it down. Agree on what’s most important to each of you and then discuss each item on the list, define it in real terms, agree on that definition and come to a mutuale understanding to how to handle it item in such a way as to gives each of you something of what you need.

This will provide a manageable framework providing both of you with standards that need to be lived up to. In effect you will create boundaries for each other. Now there will be no arguments about who does what with who and when because you will both agree on how it’s going to work up front.

Now of course all of this is going to be done in writing, (did I say that already, LOL)?. Why? (there’s that word again). Because when one of you goes outside the boundaries, there can be no argument about what was originally agreed upon. You will have created accountability and done it TOGETHER!

One last thought. When negotiating this list of items please do it with love and caring. Don’t approach this as something that leaves open-ended loopholes or as something that you are agreeing to do in a begrudging manner. Do it together and do it because you love each other and want to find ways to agree and give each other what’s important. Do it with a whole heart and with every intention of living up to the spirit of what you come to agree upon. Try to remember that individual rights and prerogatives have no place in such an agreement. Understand that what you both are doing is finding ways to make it better for each other. Make a date each week to discuss the things you agree upon. Talk about them and tell each other what’s hard or easy. Focus on these elements before focusing on hobbies, anger, fear or pain. OAK cannot begin to trust again until he decides that this is what he needs to do and an agreement of this kind will take that into account. FU can’t be living her life in wonder; wondering how every move she makes is going to be interpreted or if it’s going to be approved of by OAK. She can’t and it’s wrong to expect that she should.

Folks, if you put your marriage first, before your individual rights and prerogatives and hurts and pains, then everything else will work out. But you guys need to do the work at it.

Good luck.

Coach.

Folks, if you put your marriage first, before your individual rights and prerogatives and hurts and pains, then everything else will work out. But you guys need to do the work at it. Amen to that coach!

Wow, what a great thread. You all have given me some food for thought. Bob and RIF, great posts.

{{OAK/Falling}}

No kiddin FF...some excellent, well thought out responses here.

FU and I are chewing on them...will post tonight about what (if anything) we have managed to hammer out.

Thanks SO much folks. I mean it.

-OAK

****edit******

**note to Bart***

This is a marriage SUPPORT board!! Key word being support.....

Please reread the Marriage Builders policy and Terms of Service you agreed to when you registered for this site.

Any questions, contact me JustUss2@aol.com

JustUss

<small>[ January 28, 2005, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Gentle reminder to coming posters. Please don't feed the troll.

Dobie

Marriage building and recovery I need tons of help with.

Troll wranglin' I got down cold <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

...not that those exact words never came to me. They did. On D-Day #2. For about 30 seconds. And were disregarded after and not revisited.

-OAK