Cy, I live in the greater Los Angeles area, I think you do too.... am I correct?

I was fixated watching the train wreck rescue efforts unfold. The Costco parking lot triage was especially interesting from a professional point of view. They did everything right.

Sometimes the MB board reminds me of a triage effort.

Pick out the injured who could survive with the correct rescue effort.

Recognize the ones who will likely "die" even with the most heroic rescue efforts.

It's priortizing at it's finest. Can't be everywhere, can't help everyone.

And the affair-based marriage fits into this triage analogy somehow ... but for the life of me, I am still struggling to figure out exactly where it fits. I do recognize that, for me, any A-based M is a lower priority in my triage camp.

Pep

Pep,

I agree, the triage analogy is a very good model. However, in medicine regardless of the complexity of the injured we have a defined protocol in the assesment and treatment of the victims. Perhaps due to my own ignorance, the injured here are hampered by the lack of the "treaters" abililty to specifically define the pathology seen and therefor can not iniatiate any meaningful treatment based on that lack of accurate diagnosis. I think that my reading of SAA shocked me into realizing that like medicine, you CAN define and condense all the seemingly different patterns we see on MB forums into very basic and finite variables.

I hope the above makes some sense. I envy those posters that seem so fluid and descriptive in expressing their thoughts on paper.

I live a little south of you in San Diego.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the injured here are hampered by the lack of the "treaters" abililty to specifically define the pathology seen and therefor can not iniatiate any meaningful treatment based on that lack of accurate diagnosis.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AND sometimes ... the "injured" on MB actually LIE to the MB "treaters" about specifics and variables .... and this lying diminishes any "meaningful treatment" offered.

A mis-diagnosis based on faulty and purpousely misleading history.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

If a message board is a triage..we are all screwed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think there is a certain arrogance to the belief that we are "treating" anyone...and I certainly resist any such responsibility.

Basically, even with the pros on site [and by this I mean the trained pros like cerri] you are STILL only getting someones opinion based on very flawed observation techniques.

After all..if one were to call out LM or Cymanca for med advice..and then actually TAKE IT as having been treated..I think that the resident docs would be horrified. [as would their insurers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ]

They aren't telling posters anything that a 12th grade reading comprehension and a few library fines couldn't tell them and neither is anyone here. Self diagnosis and misdiagnosis are not good times for anyone involved.

What you are getting..is my opinion based on what you have told me, and my mood and varied aspects of my personality on any given day.. and that is all. Add a buck to that and you can buy a coffee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but you got what you payed for.


I am concerned by this trend in belief.

Noodle

Cymanca,

Yes, you do seem to have alot of compassion and sensitivity. Your mom did well!

Pep,

Can you recognize when someone on this board has a marriage which started in an affair but they omit that fact?

I don't know if I can tell when someone is being untruthful, but I do have to have a certain sense of sincerety from a poster to be able to relate, I guess. And that would be a sincerety that they have recognized the pain they have caused and are no longer capable (it would seem) of harming another.

I now know the difference between a troll and someone who is sincere, but it took that horrid thread from the troll which precipated Mel's leaving before I understood the nature and danger of trolls.

And for me I do understand the priority setting for those that are trying to help posters. I see it in you and in Ark especially, but I am sure many others pick and choose who they would spend time with as well. They would have to, or they would never get off of the board, and their ability to help would be diminished from spreading themselves to thin.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am learning how to communicate honestly and respectfully, and this means not to stuff my own opinions out of fear of not being accepted. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this a human nature fear, and affects everyone. Just at different levels. (Hey, I thought you were taking a break weav! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

To the seasoned, well versed MB-posters:
Please don't EVER think that you don't give out "meaningful treatment." Ever. All of the advice and opinions and experiences are absorbed: what the reader does with them, no, is not anyone's responsibility but the reader.

It's like a patient who is diagnosed with cancer going for second, third, fourth opinons. Regardless of what those doctor's say, regardless of what the patient says, the fact is, the patient still has cancer. And the advice still applies--the patient may just be in denial. But, if the patient really wants to heal--or at least treat the cancer--he will eventually open up and take that advice, the opinions, and treatment--and act on it. The cancer will still be there. What actions the reader/patient does, well....

But please don't ever think that "meaningful treatment" is wasted.

Blessings,
LINY

Liny,

I disagree..on a message board, you are being "treated" by fellow patients..not doctors.

What is appropriate to seek out from another patient? In my opinion..things such as experience..emotional support [even though this too can get in the way of the expert opinion]..community...

Anything further though..and you are really on dangerous ground.

Noodle

I keep popping in and out of here thinking what I'm going to say, now I'll say it.

I think the destruction caused by a marriage that began as an affair would be impossible to live with and SHOULD be impossible to live with.

I think it was JustJ who said it doesn't just affect the couple and their spouses, it spreads right out in ever increasing circles to cause hurt and pain to everyone it touches.

And there, but for the grace of God (I mean that in a literal sense) and a wonderful husband, nearly went I.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Anything further though..and you are really on dangerous ground. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We're not on dangerous ground, we are discussing ways of trying to determine who is most appropriate to approach with MB assistance.

Just words .... not even dangerous words at that.

Change the words you object to... to something you find less worrisome, and carry on....

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Anything further though..and you are really on dangerous ground. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We're not on dangerous ground, we are discussing ways of trying to determine who is most appropriate to approach with MB assistance.

Presumably anyone who is here on this board is seeking MB principled discussion. What this sentence communicates to me is that you are trying to determine who will be receptive to what you have to say..and because they are receptive, they are then appropriate to approach with your opinion. That you anticipate that their response will make a good return on your effort. Nothing wrong with that approach as an individual..but is there something wrong with that as a rule of measure for who is "appropriate" and therefore "worthy"? I think that there is.

I would be hesistant to confuse my advice or opinion with MB assistance. That suggests a hierarchy in place on the board that extends beyond the owners of the board and those who moderate it. Every poster on the board is a peer..not someone to be educated or guided..after all, they are just as capable as I of reading the material that lent it's weight to my position.

Just words .... not even dangerous words at that.

In this instance I must disagree. I do not have a degree in psychology, or psychiatry. What I know about pharmacology could fit in a thimble [and I am being generous with myself there]. What I know about neurochemistry is limited to books and articles that I have no method of judging the validity of..because my knowledge of the field is so slight that I could not recognize an inaccurate statement if it kicked me in the butt.

So, if I declare myself to be a guide..someone who is in the know..someone who can help you..then I think my words could definitely be dangerous. Who am I to advise that a person seek certain psych meds? Who am I to be taken seriously when I say that one action or set of actions carries a better probability for success than another? On what ground do I claim this authority? My online persona? My articulation? My ability to debate well with other posters? My persuasiveness? This is all very murky. If you are semi-literate and your posts are so near incoherant that I have to get out the big shovel to wade through...does that negate your ability to make good and wise choices? Are you a peasant before nobility?

Change the words you object to... to something you find less worrisome, and carry on....

I don't think it is the wording but rather the attitude that "I" am up here and "you" are down there..allow me to assist you in reaching my lofty position grasshopper. If only you could see things as I see them then all would be clear.

What I have to offer is principle based discussion..my companionship for those I interact well with..and third party insight..and very limited hands on application and experience.

Perhaps you are saying the same thing..but saying it differently. Perhaps it is a difference in semantics only. If it is not though I would be really interested in the nuts and bolts of how you came to that conclusion.

Thanks for wading through that..I'm sure it's a wreck as I have no time to proof read and I'll look eagerly for a response when I get the chance.

Noodle

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Hi everyone,

Gee,go away for a couple of days and look what happens. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Great discussion as usual.I like to hear about everyone's different opinions.I truly expected this post to pep to be pages back,forgotten.

Pep,thank you for your analogy but to me,there are a lot of assumptions.Such as,Marge told her H about the pregnancy first and they discussed the abortion togehter and it was the right decision for them both at the time.Would I condemn Marge for trying to have another baby one day? Absolutely not.Would I have contempt for her? No.It was an issue that was discussed and dealt with between the two married partners.There was not some other woman trying to take the baby away,again assuming the baby was even born.If Marge was carrying MY baby then I would feel much differently but I am not sure this analogy works for me.

weaver,I hate to admit this but I would feel differently about you had you married the OM knowing he was indeed married and your A wrecked his and his W's marriage.That is why I am so proud of you now for taking a stand against what was wrong despite how much you were hurting.That is truly the mark of a strong and moral lady.

* * * * * * * * *

I do think we can all learn from mistakes and be better person's but I just feel that pink should not have become invovled with a married man and now say,well,I will try to be that better person after I have helped destroy a marriage.

It's no secret that this is not something I am forgiving about,I have mentioned this before.I would not forgive my child's murderer either.There is a place in each of us where forgiviness resides and in me there are those places that I will not concede.It's personal,whom we forgive and what we forgive.I can't say that I will feel this way forever.I do not know but I let my heart guide me.And I am obviously not there yet.God is aware too since I am always trying to live a way of life closer to Him.

Cy,I disagree about absolutes.I think there MUST be in order for there to be safe and loving environments in this life.There absolutely must not be any adultery.There absolutely must not be any mistreatment of our fellow man.There absloutely must be laws that govern our society for us to be safe and protected from harm.Etc.In order for us to reach this "utopia" we must always strive for it.Make laws for it and teach how to enable it.Like marriage, our life here on earth is what we make of it.I think of how much more good can be done with all the money we have in this country and yet it's wasted on new convention centers and foot ball stadiums,etc.So many could be benefitted.I think of all the good that could be done if we pull all our resources together and work side by side.We could make sweeping changes all over the globe.

Belonging to nowhere,thanks for your concern but you needn't be so.As tough as I may sound here,my children are thriving! You should see how big their hearts are,how giving and sweet they are to those around them.I am not so much judging people as their actions,there is the difference.I will always hold people accountable to the most basic standards that I would expect of anyone and myself.We are prone to sin but I would like to think that sin is also a CHOICE,like any other that we have the free will to avoid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I do understand you though.

To everyone else who responded: Just J,committed,noodle,bij,Mulan,KB,ark,FF,LINY,KiwiJ,thank you for your posts too.

Pink will go on with her "new husband" now and live.Life will go on for the rest of us too and more people will succumb to the horrible affects of Adultery.My worry is that if I let my thinking stray and lower my standards from what I believe in my heart about certain issues I may just be accepting of them one day like so many other's.Then who is going to take stand against anything wrong if we all assimilate?

It's the fight I try to stay strong for.The fight to keep my boundaries,morals,beliefs,values in an ever changing world that makes me more insecure and anxious,especially for my daughters.

Thanks everybody! Great discussion.

O

<small>[ January 30, 2005, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Thanks for understanding, and I'm glad no need for some concerns <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


And, when you put it this way:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a place in each of us where forgiviness resides and in me there are those places that I will not concede.It's personal,whom we forgive and what we forgive.
---
My worry is that if I let my thinking stray and lower my standards from what I believe in my heart about certain issues I may just be accepting of them one day like so many other's.Then who is going to take stand against anything wrong if we all assimilate?

It's the fight I try to stay strong for.The fight to keep my boundaries,morals,beliefs,values in an ever changing world that makes me more insecure and anxious,especially for my daughters.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can just say - I do the same... maybe just a little little bit different way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
And my son, thanks God, is thriving too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

noodle..completely understand what you're saying...I was going under the assumption that every newbie "knows" we are not trained professionals--and some really don't. In this instnace, you are completely right.

My point was being the fog-laden posters who come here for advice, are given it by several well-versed MB'ers, and still ignore the advice.

So yes, if it is an analogy to be taken literally, you are right!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I have to offer is principle based discussion..my companionship for those I interact well with..and third party insight..and very limited hands on application and experience.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I was ultimately getting at; however many do have the application and experience, and I certainly would include you in that group!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
I don't think it is the wording but rather the attitude that "I" am up here and "you" are down there..allow me to assist you in reaching my lofty position grasshopper. If only you could see things as I see them then all would be clear.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see what you mean. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I would object to that as well.

I was using the train wreck analogy with Cy because he and I are both "local" (not really, but close enough) to have been exposed to a recent headline news item. Cy and I are both medical-model-minded and the triage at the train wreck was inspiring. The first responders to the wounded were NOT medical folks, but Costco employees who were not in any particular "lofty position" ... other than being NOT wounded. Which is a more accurate depiction of the spirit of what I was saying. I am not lofty (hardly ~LOL~) .... but I am not suffering from wounds of infidelity any longer.

Please let me know if you think I could use an attitude adjustment, and I will be grateful for any advice from you about making any necessary adjustments. (see my new tag line)

Pep

Pep,

No..that explains it completely. I am not intimately familiar with the costco wreck..but did know that you are a nurse and Cy is a DR..and I think that coupled with the choice of phrasing struck me as being just the teeniest bit condescending.

Thanks for the clarification.

Noodle

I have followed the ping paige thread an dthis one and have inadvertently meditated on this theme.

I have decided that I could never bless a remarriage borne of the knowing heartbreak of the destruction by affair of a non-abusive marriage.
Is it because I am biased being a RBS ? Absolutely.

Its just plain wrong, like a thief giving part of his loot to charity to ameliorate his guilt.Just IMO, me being a 'not wise head'.

Pep, I love your new sig line. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />