LOL...I feel like one of those poster's who say "I'm leaving the board..no, I'm staying...no, I'm leaving...no, I'm staying"...

For those who were so kind to me in my 'coming out of the lurker's closet' posts yesterday on FGG's thread (who was very gracious in letting me post some of my saga on his thread)...here are the answers to some of the questions that were posed...warning it is LONG!

JL – Are you sure you are not the associate pastor at my church in disguise? The reason I ask is this, I went to my pastor in desperation in early Dec. because the raging and verbal/mental abuse was so bad in our house that my kids were begging me to please make their father leave and get a divorce. I wanted help from the church in being a godly parent and what boundaries I could enforce even though my H is technically ‘spiritual head of the household’…..the following is a recap of what I shared with my pastor:

I just wanted to know how to handle the crumbling relationship between my kids and my H. I didn’t want to ‘side’ with anyone, but at what point do I look to the safety and well being of my children over my ‘biblical allegiance that I am supposed to have with my H”…?

They have both said they are afraid of him and that they are fearful that one day soon his verbal abuse will turn into physical. He slams his hands and towels and different items right next to their heads or near them when he is furious (although this is not often, usually it is just the looming, cursing, and screaming). I personally do not think that he would go as far as to strike them. He is however, a very intimidating, large man (in height) who when he is looming over you red-faced mad with his eyes huge and snarling/spitting at you while having you backed up against a wall (sometimes), it can be an incredibly frightening experience.

My 17 year old said she is done with respecting her dad because he demands it..she says respect is earned and she is too old to have to pretend something she doesn’t feel. I have struggled with this part because while I’ve told her I can’t control how she feels about him, that she can’t keep fighting with him. There is no ‘winner’ in a fight, particularly in this situation because he will keep you at it for hour and hours…hardly a month that goes by that one of us are not up until 2, 3, and sometimes 4 a.m. fighting with him.

My eldest DD has said on more than one occasion “Mom, Dad is not ever going to get over your affair and he will always use it to abuse you and that is no way to live the rest of your life”. She has begged me to get out of this relationship before she goes to college. Her younger sister has been diagnosed as Bipolar 2 disorder so I constantly have my hands full with her emotional rollercoaster rides. I was very sad to find out that my oldest daughter is afraid to go away to college because she is afraid to leave me alone with her father and her sister – their needs and their mood swings are so immense..and the raging that goes on would take your breath away. My younger daughter tells her grandparents (maternal ones), friends at church/school, counselors, etc. that she hates her Dad and how he hurts everyone and just wants him to ‘go away’.

Please know though, that I am also moody – I am VERY far from perfect. In fact, sometimes I wonder if I went away if their lives would be better. My H from the beginning of our marriage hasn’t trusted me. To be fair to him, his first wife cheated on him, but I had no idea he’d carry unresolved issues of trust into our marriage. I was 19 when we married - he was 25. I soon got an inkling of his lack of trust when for the first time in about 2 years (1.5 years after birth of our first daughter), I told him I wanted to go bowling with some ladies from work and he decided to wake our 18 month old daughter up, put her in a car seat (in her jammies) and go to the bowling alley so he could drive around and see if my car was actually there. I was absolutely speechless and horribly embarrassed.

This snowballed over the years – each time I got a promotion I was asked if I got on my hands and knees under someone’s desk to ‘earn’ it because someone without a college degree shouldn’t be getting promotions like I was. I used to tell my friends….I’m so tired of being accused of having an affair…I feel like if I am already convicted..I might as well just go and have one. Now, that is not how my A started and I made comments like that early into our marriage, but quit saying that and never really dwelled on it again. We have been married now almost 20 years and my A started during our 16th year of marriage. Prior to that..I NEVER cheated on him. Not an EA nor a PA.

Sigh, have no idea why I digressed this much…my comparison of you to our pastor was this, I came to him asking how to do the right thing even if we do divorce because I am too beaten down to even consider staying in marriage in which my kids are frightened and unhappy. My pastor asked if my H and I could call a truce (same words you used). We met with pastor, we agreed to call ‘truce’..truce lasted a few weeks until he went back to screaming and cursing at kids again..pastor sent new counselor name for us to use..asked me to give it to H because he couldn’t find his email…H hasn’t called new counselor and he’s had name for over 5 weeks. I don’t care enough to make the call myself. I have done all the darn calling for ‘help’ that I’m going to do. Have tried to get us help for 12 of these 20 years. I’m done.

So, that is my huge recap of my life as a married person. All of you BS’s who have been so good to your WS’s and have taken the higher road on behavior while setting protective boundaries – my compliments to you. I wish my H could have forgiven me as I have forgiven him his porn addiction (and his continued use of it). Of course as he points out “well, at least I haven’t actually ****** anybody like you have”. And he’s right.

Well, I wish the best for everyone here. I pray for the marriages that make sense to save, that there is a quick path to recovery for you…..

Regards,

YR

<small>[ January 30, 2005, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Hi FYR -

WOW!!! I just happened to check postings in passing, and there you are!! I'm so glad you're here.

I can't spend the time reading this right now (this pesky job of mine), but I'm going to print it and take it with me to read over dinner. I will respond later.

Again, glad you're here.

Georgia

YR,

Please forgive my intrusion on your thread as I don't know you or your whole story, but couldn't not reply once I read this.

There are far, far worse things than being hit. And unfortunately for you and your children you are experiencing it.

If I had to live with someone like that I would force him to hit me just so I could call the police and get him out of there.

What your children are experiencing is abuse at it's finest.

You asked at what point you should take action to protect them and yourself. That point has past in my opinion. Get him out of there until he seeks help.

I'm sorry to sound so harsh but I know when you live with something like that it is hard to know what is okay and what is not okay.

This is not okay.

And no wonder you are so moody.

I hope the others are around tonight to talk to you, as they are your friends and will bring more light than I can.

Hi, FYR.

So, your husband is being abusive, you are moody and your daughter is BP II.

Are you or your husband diagnosed with bipolar disorder?
If so, are either/both of you on medication?

Would either/both of you consider a psychiatric evaluation?

There are methods, means and medications to introduce some peace into your household.

Of greatest importance, if your husband is capable of violence toward you or your children, then get them to a safe place immediately.

Being guilty of an affair does not paint one with a "abuse me" sign or give anyone a right to do so.

I am certainly glad that God didn't choose to beat me repeatedly over my sins. If it were okay to abuse sinners, then the animals would have free reign of the planet, as all of the humans would have long been dead.

Everyone screws up. What matters is how you handle that fact after the matter.

All the best,
Gimble

FYR:

Interesting. And sad.

I find so many parallels, with the names and roles of the players changed around a little, that it's scary.

My W even said that she finally "gave in" 2 my desire for SF 30 years ago because my mom suspected we were already doing it! And when the A started, it was because she didn't think I cared about her. Well, that and a friend of hers said "Go for it, get it out of your system". All unknown 2 me.

I have my flaws 2. There is plenty of "justification" for the A (at least she thinks so). But I have absolutely never been violent. She has. But again, not with people, just objects. Verbal abuse aplenty though, all the while accusing me of causing it.

-ol' 2long

FYR - Due to unforeseen change of plans tonight (see my thread), I decided to read yours and respond before I leave work.

First, let me say that I DO NOT have all the answers.

I think your H's actions are deplorable. There is nothing you have done that deserves the way he is treating you and your kids. You've told me a lot about him with your desription of unforgiveness, anger, rage, and porn. I asked you yesterday about his spiritual condition and you replied that he has "always" been a Christian and grew up in church. I really, really have to wonder if he just grew up in a church but never really understood what it's all about. I suspect that you have experienced God's grace and forgiveness from the things you said yesterday.

I don't want to go further with specific advice, I hope many other wise folks will chime in here. I may be out of touch for the weekend. However, don't give up hope with this site. I, for one, want to be able to talk with you more about this. Okay?

Georgia

<small>[ January 28, 2005, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Formerly G.G. ]</small>

FYR,

So much to say and so little time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Is your H aware of what he is doing to the children. His he aware that his fears brought from before your marriage have created a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Is he aware, that the kids did not have an A, and yet they fear him as much as you do?

Is he aware that he could not only lose you but his kids, and he will not have learned a darned thing?

Has anyone other than yourself talked to him about his temper, his disrespect, and his behavior. I mean family members someone that knows him and respects him?

He has problems and only one of them is your A. In fact, most of that problem now is from the baggage he brought to the party to begin with.

FYR, somehow you or someone needs to let him see what he is doing and I doubt that he does. He cannot be that big a coward to not be able to talk with kids without yelling all of the time.

I must go. I hope you continue to post here, and I sure hope someone can hold to a mirror his behavior.

God Bless,

JL

I've only got a few minutes to post tonight.

FYR - Have you continued to confront your pastor about your need for help? If he suggests one thing (such as the name of the counselor) and it doesn't help for any reason, go right back to him. He may be in the best position to hold your husband accountable for his actions. I know what you said about the lost e-mail and all that, but you may have to keep pressing your pastor to do his job and stay involved. Tell him in plain englisht that you need help and exepct the church to provide it. If he doesn't, go to whatever body of elders / deacons you have in your church. The idea is, hold him accountable and make it known what he is doing.

I think you need someone in authority (even if it's just perceived authority) who is aware and can help you. (Don't get too hung up in that Biblical submission thing, many spiritually immature men use that excuse to abuse their wives. Don't fall for it).

What about his parents? Are they still around?

Georgia

<small>[ January 29, 2005, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Formerly G.G. ]</small>

Sorry for delayed responses to everyone's posts - it has been one of those wild weekends with too much to do and not enough of 'Mom' to go around.

Will try and respond to everyone kind words and concerned thoughts -

Weaver - no intrusion whatsoever! I am honored that you took the time to reply. I have read and admired what you have had to share with people for a while now. I agree, there are worse things than being hit. While my H has never straight out hit me, I have been forced to defend myself when he has had me pushed up against a wall (along with throwing myself against him bodily when he has been raging at one of our kids and has stepped threateningly close to them)or has swept his arm out and knocked me off my feet during an argument. He claimed that it was my fault that I fell because I was standing on a towel on the tile in our bathroom and that I had probably (my words here) "fell for dramatic effect and so that I could now call the police on him".

I did not call the police, I picked myself up and called my parents sobbing and asked them to please come get me. My H absolutely freaked out. When my parents arrived my H informed my 71 year old Dad (with heart condition) to get the [censored] out of HIS house. My Dad pointed out calmly that being in community property state, I owned half of the house and that they were there to get me and would be leaving soon. My poor Dad, he's an atheist and my H is a Christian - he said there is no way he'll ever believe in a God that has people like H representing Him. Yes, folks, I know my Dad doesn't get it and that many sinners believe in God, it just makes it harder to ever talk to my Dad about God.

My then 16 year old came out of her room (in middle of the night) and got between her father and my Dad. She said no one was going to hurt her grandfather...my H just kept screaming and ranting. I finally hurried my parents out of there because I was afraid my Dad might have a heart attack or something worse and was cursing myself (internally) for not thinking about the fact that my parents don't need to be called during stuff like this..they are too old and it is just not fair to them.

So..yep..that's all I was trying to do..engineer a scene by throwing myself on floor and pretending he had hit me..and calling 911 to get him booted out because as H said "you have been wanting this and have wanted this excuse and now you have it". Hhmm..yep, worked well for me considering I never called 911.

Also, Weaver...I am by no means innocent...although I don't rage/threaten and scare my kids...in sheer frustration and my own anger (with no kids around)...I have lost it with my H. I have pulled his hair (two occasions in 20 years) and I have thrown a few things. I'm 5'6", my H is 6'4"...I'm not much of a 'threat' in any way..but growing up with 3 brothers..I have an instinctive reaction to defend myself when threatened physically and I have told my H over and over to please not push me/crowd me into corners and up against walls/showers.

I know..it is no excuse. I am ashamed of any act in which I have 'lost it'. I haven't done anything like that in over a year now and I pray I never do again.

Gimble,

I was evaluated for bipolar during my teens and I have asked again since I've been an adult. I also asked when my youngest daughter was diagnosed. I've been told that I am not, but I suspect I have a very mild case..perhaps the glorious BP NOS? I'm always open to doing whatever needs to be done to make sure I am functioning at the best level that I can, being the best Mom that I can be, and for dealing with the tough stuff.

I have been on Paxil for a number of years now and that has helped alot when I take it consistently. I realize that is not a typical BP medication, it is just the one anti-depressant that worked the best for me especially with its anxiety resolving properties. If any of the psychiatrists I have been to thus far would have wanted to put me on any typical BP medicine, I would have been glad to try it. I would actually like to stop taking Paxil since it causes some side effects that seem to be increasing after long term use such as slurred speech. In fact, on one occassion, my speech had become so slurred (in forgetting to take Paxil for a few days, I decided to take the ever-so-smart avenue of taking 2 Paxil's at once) that led to the horrific fight mentioned in my post to Weaver with my H - he said my speech was so slurred that he knew I had spent the evening sucking men's..um..private parts and that is why I was talking like that.

My H on the other hand is totally opposed to taking medicine of any kind and has fought me tooth and nail on getting our youngest help. We have known, or I guess I should say, I have known since she was a baby that something was wrong. I waited years and years for her to outgrow it. I have read so many books on children with 'issues' that I have my own library - The Difficult Child, The Explosive Child, the one about sensory problems, almost every book of importance ever published on BP disorder in children (I have about 10 of them). I also frequent the site for kids with bipolar disorder (an excellent site by the way). I've also attended 'Love and Logic Classes', 'Growing Kids God's WAy', etc. etc.

My H argues with the diagnosis our daughter has been given but won't research or find another person to do an evaluation. This is story of our life - doctors, dentists, school, etc - always me doing and him disagreeing. He had and has always had full reign to do his own research and talk to various professionals. I do not have an exclusive license in getting our child help. However, if you are going to deny or pretend the problem doesn't exist..that does not help anyone and still leaves me with the fact that I have a hurting child who needs help.

To me, it is abusive to NOT help a child in need. It is abusive to NOT give them medicine if it is proven or even strongly suspected that they need it. Due diligence is the issue. The care of our child IS our responsibility - dealing with painful, difficult, heart-wrenching problems is part of that responsibility.

In closing, I am still open to another evaluation. I need help with my own anger and bitterness. Also, having a child who has issues like my youngest has taken a toll on my heart, mind, and soul that sometimes threatens to drown me.

Thanks for your kind words, Gimble. Thanks for caring enough to respond. I have so much to say after just lurking for 3 years that I apologize if I have skipped any part of anyone's questions in my responses.

Regards,

FYI

2Long - sorry to hear that our stories oddly parallel in some ways. I get so very frustrated with your W sometimes. I used to just want to thump her long distance about her whole definition of marriage issue...like she was in bondage or something.

Interesting about what she contributes start of A to...that you didn't 'care' about her..yet considering her 'definition' of marriage, it makes me wonder why whether you cared or not would have been of importance at all. Methinks as I have suspected for a long time that your wife 'doth protest too much'. It's almost like she has this mantra about marriage and subjugation that she is afraid to give up/toss aside because then she might have to face that her actions were wrong/are wrong and that she is not sure if there would be any of 'her' left in the end if she were to give up these convictions that she has clenched in both fists. Her justifications..like the rest of us wayward folk are her shield against taking responsibility and ownership.

I have tried to keep up with your situation, but haven't always been able to so I apologize if she has changed her stance on any of the above and I have somehow missed it and am rehashing old stuff.

Interesting about her "giving in" and having SF with you because her Mom thought she already was. I 'gave in' and married my H not because I was madly in love with him, I just thought he would be better for me than the total other losers I used to be attracted to. I thought he would be a better father and that in time I would grow to love him. How grossly UNFAIR and selfish of me..and how stupid!!

How very sad that now my H and I have two innocent children who have suffered the consequences of having 2 selfish adults for parents who brought them into their dysfunctional world and then further hurt them by not being able to break the vicious cycle.

Thanks for responding 2Long...I still wish and hope for a marriage for you that meets your needs more fully than it does now. I wish for your happiness and would love to see your patience and perseverance rewarded many times over.

Sincerely,

FYR

FGG -

None of us have all the answers...I know..although I wish we did!! Yes, some of my H's actions are deplorable...my A was deplorable..and many, many of my actions have been deplorable.

The thing that gives me hope the most for just 'my side of the street' is that oddly..once I became a Christian..things that I used to do without thinking twice...well, now they give me pause or just outright revulsion. It is like I now have a much stronger conscience or something. Please know though, that I'm not saying that being a Christian gives me a cornerstone on having moral values. I know many atheists who have NEVER cheated..and even though I was an atheist when I did, we know all too often, as in the case with your wife, that Christians are equally susceptible. In fact, sometimes I wonder if oddly enough they are more susceptible.

Thanks for taking the time to post to me in the midst of such huge emotional upheavals as what you are having to deal with. It means a lot to me. I'll keep you and yours in my prayers this weekend.

Sincerely,

FYR

Hi, FYR.

The reason I asked about the bipolar evaluation is because bipolar disorder appears to have a genetic component. So if one or both parents have it, then the offspring is potentially affected.

From what you have written, your anger and bitterness come from resentment. I have no idea of the details of your affair, but I would guess that your entitlement was born from your resentment.

I wanted to address the "biblical head of household" issue that you mentioned in your first post. I can't quote scripture and verse to give you biblical guidance, but I can tell you one thing I do know about God - if he had a middle name, it would be "Practical".

In your situation, it is NOT practical to trust that your husband will make sound decisions regarding his family. He has, in fact, a proven track record of just the opposite.

The reason he continues to get louder and more aggressive is that he feels he is losing control. He feels this for many reasons, one of which you mentioned in your first post, that your daughter has decided that respect must be earned, that it is not a 'right'.

I want to recommend a few things to you.

1) Distance yourself emotionally from him, but in a loving way, not with a scowl and a hard face. The purpose is to defuse some of the potential for anger.

2) For now, no relationship talks, other than those appropriate in establishing and maintaining boundaries. No yelling, screaming or accusing.

3) Find an individual counselor that specializes in abusive situations. Go and see them ASAP. Follow their advice.

4) Put back some money, and make an escape plan. Use friends or a safe house, but put together a 'cheat sheet' with important numbers and an action plan just in case your husband goes off the deep end. In an emergency, it is hard to think clearly. The 'cheat sheet' should be simple and easy to follow. Be prepared.

There are ways to get your husband medically evaluated, but you will need to work with the counsellor for that.

I will post some online links to useful abuse sites. I am sure others here can help as well.

All the best,
Gimble

Sigh..as everyone can see...brevity is not my strong point. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

FGG and Just Learning - to see if I can answer some questions you both posed in one thread:

I keep trying to hold the pastor I am working with accountable. This is 2nd or 3rd time in 3 years he has dropped ball with something he PERSONALLY committed to doing and that is getting my H involved in personal accountability group. This frustrates me to no end. Then again, neither my H or I..for whatever reasons (like the one I gave of 'I just don't care any more') have contacted the counselor's name he gave us. I just am super disappointed because my H had a little level of respect for this pastor and I was hoping he would listen to him. Also, this pastor says he can't take 'sides'. Sides? Sides? I'm not wanting him to take sides..I'm wanting him to call either of us, both of us..whatever on our behavior. It is our kids SUFFERING here! Someone needs to take a darn side - THEIR side..God's side!! ARGH!!!!!

His parents are still around but they are part of the problem stemming from when H was young. They are founding members in what I call 'the stork club' - they want to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that anything unpleasant does not exist at all. I have tried talking to them for the kid's sake. My eldest, who is doted on by her paternal grandfather has called him crying telling him about her father and what he does. My youngest has done the same. Bottom line seems to be this - he is our boy and we have to stand by him. My FIL said the reason our kids have problems is that neither my H or myself wants to do the right thing for the kids and we are just too selfish? Excuse me? Huh? How is me telling you that your grandchildren are scared of your son a show of selfishness on my part??? My FIL has watched me support this family my entire adult life while HIS SON laid in bed for years because he was unemployed. My FIL watched me help put his son through college and then when it was supposed to be 'my turn'..he watched me have to give it up because his son was unemployed yet again. He watched me having to drive my eldest to daycare with tears in my eyes while his son laid around at home 'looking for a job and I can't have DD here because she distracts me'. Obviously H was depressed, where was FIL when I tried to get him help? FIL has watched me work 80, 90, 96 hours a week to keep a roof over my kids heads while their father pondered what he wanted to 'do with his life because working at a fast food job or any other menial job to put food on the table was 'beneath' him'. FIL has watched me do girl scouts, room mom, take kids to church even though I didn't believe, volunteer, tutor, and hold full time job while his son slept in. I have had to get my Dad to help me work on my car because my H couldn't get around to it. I drove 9 months pregnant with a car with no heater and blankets wrapped around me because H was too busy sitting around our apartment. My H used to get mad when I'd lean my awkward 9 month's pregnant belly across my car (under the hood) and try to work on something because it 'made him look bad' to the neighbors. Well, after I ask and beg for months for help, I figure he's not willing!

My in-laws attend church regularly but they will not lift a finger to help me or the kids. My H outed my affair and broadcasted it to his entire family (yes, I know I deserved this). He conveniently never told them of his abuse of all of us for years and his ongoing to this day use of porn and the fact that our own children have found it on the computer. So, I'm the evil adulteress that their poor son has to put up with. My FIL has told my eldest D that I think your poor Dad just can't get over what your mother did to him.

I just want to SCREAM!! Can I forgive H? I thought so..I wanted to..but it is hard to forgive if behavior continues...can BS's forgive their WS's if the A is ongoing? I don't know. I want peace..I want peace in my soul. I'm so very very bitter and numb. I know this may offend many BS's out there and please know that I truly truly don't mean to hurt you or make light of what your WS's have done with the OP..but to me..in MY situation..my H has made me feel more dirty, filthy, and soiled than how I feel about what the OM and I did..and let me tell you...I get physically sick to my stomach when I think about what I did with the OM. There, how warped is that? Yeah..I know..it is warped. I feel sick now..I'm sorry, I didn't mean to go on so much..

FYR -

I look forward to being able to expend a little more time on your situation, but I know you understand that I'm a little distracted right now.

But...let me say that I was 20 when I became a Christian. The things that I did prior with ease became apparent to me they were wrong, actually, they were just plain 'sin'. (Kinda old fashioned, but still just as true). What you are experiencing gives me complete assurance that your salvation is, indeed, genuine. It is that same assurance that gives me hope for your situation.

I will be back to continue this, but it may be a bit.

Today is the day for me. Please pray for my family today.

A fellow believer -

Georgia

FGG -

My prayers are DEFINITELY with you and your family today! Please do not worry about replying to me. My situation has been what it is for several years now and is not at any critical juncture in the same way that yours is.

Please know that you, Just Learning, 2Long, Gimble, Weaver..and anyone else who has responded that my poor aging gray matter cannot remember right now...all of you have helped me more than you will ever know just by caring.

In fact, just by posting myself on my own thread I have realized something...I went back and reread this thread today and I thought "wow, that is one ANGRY woman"...I really thought I had moved past some of it, but I don't think I have. I'm sure this shows up in how I interact with my H. I'm not saying that what he did or what I have done was ok. I'm not saying that none of us should be angry or should not be. I'm just still in awe of how much power the past has on my emotions..and a little bit dismayed at how angry I still am.

Take care of yourself...prayers headed your way!

Sincerely,

FYR

PS: Gimble, I'll respond to your last post after I get my youngest daughter situated. She is home sick today so I am working from home.