First, I am Bear04, some of you know my story. I changed my name due to WW lurking (I believe she is).

Today I learned that WW has broke NC and talked to OM in the past month. She won't admit to it, still lies to me. The contact was brief, a cell phone call that OM didn't answer and another he did but talked for 5 min. The problem I am having here is that 1) WW keeps breaking NC, won't send letter, just promises not to do it and she is trying, etc. and 2) WW believes that we are over, she doesn't want M, she wants a D, but won't take initiative and file. Says all these things and is mean as heck to me, but lies about OM and stays home more and has really changed her ways as far as household duties are concerned.

I am considering plan B (don't know if I am right in this) but feel it is impossible. I have talked with a lawyer and he advised me that no matter what I do I do not leave the house and do not allow DS to be removed from house. WW also refuse to leave house.

At this point I do believe the PA has stopped, and not because WW has said so, there are other reasons. But her infatuation with him continues. I know this is withdrawal. I know I am supposed to ride this out. I have plan A actions thrown back in my face daily. A WW who is not willing to commit to M. I am getting to the point that I am really starting to hate her. I feel like I need to get out before I damage this R to the point of no recovery.

This is enough info to get started. If you need more look at Bear's Story thread or ask me follow up questions here.

How can I plan B if I am stuck like this? Is the only way to file for seperation?

How can you not plan B at this point? Please share what you understand plan B to be?

L.

Hey bud,

I would agree that it is probably time for Plan B. She seems to be just giving you lipservice at this point. She won't do the things that you and I both know that she should.

How bout write out the Plan B stating all the things that need to be addressed. NC letter, cellphones, email, openess.... you know the rest. Give it too her then let her make the call. If she wants to stay in the house with you not saying one word to her, with you leaving the room when she enters, then so be it.

You can still do the Plan B while still in the house. It will be hard, but at least you will be saving yourself.

Native

Hmmmm I'm with Orchid, how the heck can you Plan B now?

I'd stick with lawyers advice, he knows the legal stuff.

What have you done in Plan A?? Is it possible that you're not filling the correct EN's? Did she fill out an ENQ for ya?

I mean, the getting the stuff thrown back in your face is pretty standard....tell us what you think her top 3 EN's are and what you've done to fill them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-Caren

One more suggestion....sorry. Have you ever looked at www.divorcebusting.com ? Look over there....those are different concepts, that you might be able to apply since you can't go dark in the same house.

-Caren

Hi Orchid, Native, and all. Plan B is plan B, plan B letter containing my willingness to work on M once NC and MC are met and total darkness.

It's just right now I feel like there is one foot in one foot out. Here is what I know. OM told her to get lost. She is actively in IC. No longer "runs around" on weekends and has generally been a pretty good mom and domestic partner (housework and stuff). Cons, no affection, heck no acknowledgement for most things nice I do for her (par for course when in withdrawal or plan A). The real kicker, her continued insistance that M is over and can never work, unwllingness to open up at all, no verbalized commitment to M (An I'll try, or I want this), and her seeking counsel regarding a D.

I feel 'stuck' at this point and the only way to get out of rut is to go dark. Am I wrong with this?

Now, even if I wanted to, I could not move out to plan B due to pending (hope not) custody issues of abandonment per my counsel. So stuck again.

EN's, ok, been trying to fill every need I can (no ENQ filled out) think of from being a good H and father, not bringing up A, not pushing R talk, etc. Any affection, intimacy, SF needs, get summarily shut down and conversation is real tough (like talking to the wall sometimes, and she won't open up to me at all). I haven't even kissed or hugged my W in 4 1/2 months! Driving me freaking crazy! Also have checked out the divorcebusting 180's and am familiar with them, don't know if I should try that.

I just feel, right now, I have given and given so much, taker coming out, down boy. I am hitting a low and have been triggering hard today. Last two nights have slept horribly and awaken to dream of OM and WW, scary crap. Mentally and emtionally exhausted. Do I want to give up? No. But we have had some episodes lately where I, after being calm during the whole discussion, would get pinned in the corner, she'd push a button (you are just like your mom, or you act just like an 'last name', or your family is sooo perfect) and I would react with a name call or other LB's. Otherwise I remain upbeat and we manage to just coexist pretty well. Day to day is not that bad, except for the b!tchiness and the total lack of affection. It gets to you after a while. Listen to me, well she only tried calling him twice this month. Are these my standards? What the heck, as long as she isn't sleeping with him I will settle for this? What the he!! has happened to my life?

What the heck stage are we in anyways? It's like a blend of plan A, withdrawal, I think, except she wants a D, today, last week said no, before that yes. It's a freaking rollercoaster. Most times, I am unfazed but just really longing for her affection, others, I trigger hard and get so frustrated I want to cry out and strangle the whole world, like today.

So
so
so.....

gonna ramble though this one...

I agree 1000% that you can't plan B here by leaving the home and risking abandonment as being part of the divorce...

so you gotta stay there...

On one hand her plan may be to make the home so insidiously hostile that she backs you in to a corner so that you do the dirty work and file...

that is a possibility...and it may NOT be the worst one...
the question is ....are you planning on going for full custody??

so you line your ducks up on that route...

lets say that her wishing and thinking she wants a divorce....way way different from the reality of a divorce....and that be careful what you wish for rings true for many..

so one option is that YOU do file...knowing dam well that it can be turned around ....or dropped...

how do you feel about that...
what's the worst
what's the best out come...
and most importantly how does your lawyer see this playing out with the children...

So can you psychologically plan B her with out the letter...and up the ante of her exposure to someone who is really upbeat...YOU...and very happy with the thought of being free

she sees divorce as an escape from her self...
not ever having to face her destruction....

can you create the illusion that you are moving on...can you decrease your time out there without disclosing where you are going...while always being contactable...

can you take a weekend trip...planned in the near future...
can you begin to disconnect.....

can you go plan b in your mind...and not react to her at all..

part of this the withdrawl and there really isnt' any thing you can do....

it may be time to pick and use a really good support group...
give yourself a two month time limit..
use a lot of the 180's...
and seek legal counsel...

but I do hear what you are saying...

ARK

A primer on Plan B in the home (similar to 180)

The Solo Partner


Chapter 1 The Pain of Change
Put pain to constructive use to resolve your relationship problems.
The only person you can directly change is yourself.
By changing yourself, you can indirectly change your partner.
The key to change is maintaining effort.

Chapter 2 Self-Deception: Our Inner Enemy
Accept responsibility.
We deceive ourselves by overlooking, rationalizing, justifying.
False hope is the belief that the cause of and solution to our predicament rests outside us.
We become open to change after a period of hopelessness.
Emotional reactivity is progressive.

Realization is when we begin to focus not on our partners but on ourselves.
Before realization, we have a complacent, unrealistically hopeful attitude.
With realization, we liberate ourselves from self-deception. This involves grieving, and these are the feelings involved:
1) Denial: this can’t really be happening.
2) Anger: hurt; anger directed at partner; why was I so stupid?
3) Despair: unhappiness as we feel the full weight of the loss of our dream; self-doubt, loneliness, and fatigue.
4) Acceptance: stronger sense of personal responsibility; no longer see ourselves as innocent victims.
The last glimmer of false hope has been extinguished.

By seeing through our own self-deceptions and facing any personal shortcomings, we upset the status quo in our relationship.

Chapter 3 Emotional Reactivity: An Endless Cycle in Troubled Marriages
Act: something we do of our own volition
React: behave in opposition to our natural behavior or in response to pressure from someone else

Pattern for emotional reactivity:
1) Emotional triggers can lead to a reaction based solely on immediate emotional impulses and without thought of future consequences.
2) The partner needs to be drawn in; baiting can then occur and the provoker is satisfied by the response.
3) Escalation occurs when each partner focuses on the other. The goal is not to resolve an issue. It is to hurt, defy, spite, attack, defend, patronize, or provoke.
4) Recovery may not happen.

Nonengagement starves emotional reactivity.
High emotional reactivity will shut down communication and low reactivity will open it up.

Stages in the process of change:
1) What needs changing is identified, and an alternative behavior is planned.
2) When the situation comes up, the behavior is the same.
3) The situation is recognized, but the behavior is the same.
4) The situation is recognized, and the alternative behavior is followed.

Keep your plan and goal to yourself.

When your partner starts a reactive exchange, identify the baiting behavior. People usually have only about 6 – 10 baiting behaviors.

Chapter 4 Being Defensive: The Illusion of Self-Protection
Being defensive is one of the ways we cover up certain of our recurrent behaviors rather than trying to change them, and denial is one of our most common mechanisms. Our defensiveness keeps us from seeing ourselves realistically, in spite of he feedback we receive about our need to change. Denial followed by attack moves the focus off ourselves and onto our partners, so that we can see their every shortcoming, and none of our own.

Once we are defensive, we see all information as threatening and attacking. We cannot distinguish between a valid complaint and a hostile retaliation. We do not evaluate the truthfulness of the message but rather dismiss the criticism so that we are protected from immediate emotional discomfort. Interpretations and assumptions are made that support what we want to hear rather than what was actually said. If some information was taken in, it is explained away, simply denied, or the subject is changed. Then we counterattack and escalate.

Your real power for improvement lies in unraveling your own defensive mechanisms. Try to accept that there will be pain when you start coming to terms with the truth of what is being said to you, and remember that you will benefit in the long run. If a criticism was accurate, the fastest way to get over your pain is to start working on changing the criticized behavior. Observe, listen, and reflect, rather than automatically dismissing, blaming, or attacking the messenger.

Chapter 5 Togetherness: Balancing “I” and “We”
The ideal balance is for the partners to develop an ability to act together as well as apart, and to feel part of a “we” without feeling they are giving up their individuality and uniqueness. When agreements are forced, it often means no longer expressing true feelings because doing so would leave the person open to attack or ridicule. This in turn leads to resentment. True “I” statements are made as an action and are open to new information and input from others. Reactive “I” statements are made to defy, hurt, spite, placate, manipulate, or intimidate the other person or to defend oneself.

When people do not respect each other’s opinions, the thing they have the right opinion and try to force that opinion on others. Real communication ends as both attack each other’s opinions and defend their own. The key is to learn to express our opinions while not defending ourselves against attack. By not defending yourself against attack, you alone can create an atmosphere where differences will at least be tolerated and at best will enrich both lives. There is an old saying – “Never answer an angry word with an angry word – it is the second word that makes the quarrel.”

No victory can come from intimidating someone into agreeing with you. No victory comes from keeping silent and giving in to placate your partner. If you lie either to yourself or your partner about who you really are, both you and your relationship will suffer.

The key to success lies in confronting yourself and in not confronting your partner. Long-lasting improvement in any relationship comes more from changing negative behavior than from expressing negative feelings.

You will need to learn how to express you opinion as a subjective view rather than as an absolute truth. When you find yourself under attack, concentrate on not defending your opinion; simply state your view and say nothing more. Do not explain why you feel this way, or answer your partner’s charges, or try to reason with or persuade him. Nothing more needs to be said or done. Your opinion is simply a statement of what you think, feel or believe. Always keep in mind that your goal is to express and respect your mutual differentness. Learn to state your position without being drawn into an argument.

The stages of success are:
1) a mutual cessation of attack or retaliation when differences emerge
2) each of you are more open to the differences between you
3) a mutual respect for your differences will emerge.

Chapter 6 Dealing with “Who is to Blame?”
Blame is most frequently communicated in the form of “you” statements, such as “Why did you” and often implies that the partner had ulterior motives or intentionally did something injurious. Laying blame will always cause a reaction.

Assume that each of us is responsible for our own actions. Trying to force your partner to see his own faults will only worsen the relationship. When we focus on ourselves and work on our own problems, our life with our partner improves. It is counterproductive to vent. Release your feelings on another way. Learn to not react to your partner’s retaliations, no matter how provocative and malicious they seem to be.

Decide ahead of time what point you want to convey. Plan to convey that point in a nonreactive way by making brief “I” statements. Stay away from statements about what your partner is doing to you. Instead, concentrate on what you have allowed to be done to you. Focus on specific behaviors rather than a condemnation of your partner in general. Take responsibility for change where it can have some positive outcome.

Learn to identify the area in which your partner blames you and observe exactly what is said and how it is said. Before you react, try to understand what part is truly your own responsibility. Then try to distinguish between what your partner is blaming you for and what you are responsible for. Never try to convince your partner to accept your view; never ridicule or attack your partner in reaction to a provocation. If your partner reacts, say nothing. Not reacting to blame is what will ultimately reach your partner. It’s OK to say “I don’t want to talk anymore right now. I’m too upset.”

Chapter 7 Using Your Anger Constructively
What to do with anger?
1) Express it, and the result is reactive confrontations or alienation from partner
2) Do not vent it, and you are drained emotionally and physically

What are forms of anger?
1) Shouting or screaming
2) Not saying anything
3) Bodily reactions
4) Delayed behavior
5) Tone of voice

Different stages of anger:
1) Unresolved anger can turn into resentment and then bitterness
2) There is a need for a reactive encounter regardless of future consequences
3) The reactive infection stage
4) Escalation

A common source of anger is our expectations. There are three things you can do:
1) Smolder in your anger
2) Lower your unmet expectations
3) Leave the relationship
If you lower your expectations, you can honestly reevaluate both your relationship and yourself. You need to deal with reality. When you lower your expectations, you also must see your own faults as well and move toward a solution. By focusing on your own shortcomings, you can learn that your partner has a great deal of justification for his complaints. The less we expect of our partners (and the more we expect of ourselves), the more we receive. When an attitude of “expect nothing, get nothing” dominates a relationship, people stop doing something for their partner unless it is angrily demanded.

Nothing constructive comes from out-of-control anger. Start thinking along the lines that your partner may not change. The focus then shifts from your partner to yourself. Then you reach the point of realization where you begin to find solutions to your problems. Your pain is due to the death of your self-deception. Work at getting behind the anger to the hurt, disappointment, and finally the loss you feel. When you accept this loss, you will also eliminate your anger. The bigger the fantasy and the longer it was held, the more time it is likely to take to give it up.

Having accepted that the problem is not going to go away, you must ask yourself what you are going to do about it and whether you are willing to settle for this situation.
It is easier to vent at the partner than to look at your own shortcomings. We may try dealing with reality, but reality will deal with us.

Chapter 8 Pursuit and Distance Between Partners
The pursuer seeks togetherness at the expense of personal autonomy and individuality. She feels emotionally secure only when her life revolves around others. The distancer feels crowded. She emotionally pursues him by wanting to know what he feels, wanting resolution of their problem, and wanting it at once. Concurrently, he distances himself emotionally from her, seeking space to think about it, hoping the problem will go away by itself or that she will wait until he comes up with a solution in his own time and way. For every step she takes toward him, he moves one away from her.

The pursuer gives up and looks for other ways to fill the emptiness. The distancer’s self-centeredness and isolation lead to boredom and emptiness. He also seeks ways to relieve his discomfort. Pursuit and distancer problems often start when a legal or emotional commitment is made to the marriage. The pursuer needs to acknowledge the gap between her expectations and reality.

Both pursuit and distance are reactive behaviors which become progressively worse over time, unless one partner’s efforts succeed in putting a stop to them. Change will be initiated by the person who is most uncomfortable. He will change only when he fears losing the pursuer. Distancers tend to change in direct proportion to how much their pursuers modify their pursuit.

These are the pursuer’s options:
1) continue the pursuit in the hope of emotionally engaging the partner; this is a fantasy which ultimately leads to frustration, exhaustion, and emotional bankruptcy
2) separate
3) stop pursuing

Pursuers are addicted to togetherness and the need to stay in a relationship – even a bad one. They settle for very little and express their disappointment, frustration, and anger in hostile, critical ways. They become responsible for other people’s problems. This caretaking can become manipulative and controlling, and can backfire because people resist efforts to change them. They find it easy to blame others.

Pursuer can only reach the distancer by distancing herself from him – emotionally and physically. The only way to catch a distancer is to be more distance than he is.


Chapter 9 Stopping Pursuit: Guidance for Pursuers

Never pursue a distancer. Do as little as possible for him and with him, with the goal of doing absolutely nothing. Learn how to fill your life in new ways, seeking other people who will meet your emotional needs. You will be forced to develop some emotional autonomy. Change your expectations and give up the pursuit. Your improvement can occur only after your illusion of finding happiness and completeness through someone else collapses. Pursuers tend to follow, but distancers tend to procrastinate, so it is up to the pursuer to make changes.

Bear,

Plan B is for you to protect you and your family. Recovery is a side benefit only if the WS turns around. If not, then D w/b the next logical step.

R U afraid of the D step? Rethink your plan B. Set reasonable expectations and goals for you. NOT for the WS. WS are not capable of having reasonable goals. You w/b spitting in the wind to have such a conversation with a WS on this matter.

So write your plan B letter to protect you and your family. Mention that there are steps to be discussed at a later date, should your W return. Don't go into those details in the letter.

In the letter, remind her you love your W and her family misses her. Present the letter as from the family (make you and the children 1 pkg deal). Remind her of the good times she shared with her 'family' (individually and together).

Then explain the intense pain. Start finalizing with plan B outline of contact limitations. List 3rd party and emergency procedures. Keep this part formal/business like. End with short requirement list of how to contact if she changes her attitude. Don't make any promises of return. Let her wonder if you will.

Let Chris123 and others review your plan B letter.

JMHO,
L.

Thank you all for your input, you all have given me some answers I was seeking and some questions to think about.

No, right now, no, I am not ready to file for a D. I don't want that, so i won't even consider filing, even to shake things up. That is not a road I want to turn onto.

Ark, I agree with about everything in your post. Can't move out physically, so my only option left is to phase in the 180's and begin a 'mental' plan B. I will need to learn more about the 180's and put together a plan. This should also help me to not react so emotionally in our discussions.

My options are very limited due to what I would risk if a custody issue ever arose, a traditional plan B really isn't an option. In the event of a D, I would seek primary physical custody and joint legal custody. The joint legal is a given, the physical would be tougher. According to law, the reasons for the D are not to influence custody issues. My counsel did say that jusges are human and I do have a good shot at what I want.

Looks like I'll just keep plugging away. Thanks for your help. I've got more to the weekends events, some good things happened. I'll post it later

After yet another night of fighting, LB's abounded, I have decided that I am doing more damage and undoing my months of plan A efforts. I was really screwed up last night and I messed up big. I was the classic BS forgetting everything MB teaches, I feel so stupid, and felt asheamed for my behavior. I apologized to WW last night, and also sent her a written email apology for the things I called her. I was wrong. WW really knows how to trip my trigger, and we both entrenched in our defense mode. One resolution is this morning we decided that we need a mediator when we have future R talks. So we are going to resume MC. This is a DJ, but, I seek MC to save the M, I think WW wants me to see MC so that I can see how hopeless this is and that we should D, IMO.

Another decision that I have come to is that if WW wants a D, then she should get a taste of it, sort of a precursor. She says our R is 50/50, that she will not move out because this is her house and she is entitled to 1/2 the equity (I have made the down payment and ALL house pymts). Fine, I have asked her to put together the list of monthly bills that she pays along with credit card statements in her name as well as 401k and other asset statements. I will do the same. We will then split the bills 50/50 from now on, if she agrees to that, but that is what she wants, right?

I am also going to talk to my lawyer about a legal seperation. My goal is to have WW removed from our house, or at least some protection from abandonment charges if I leave. If you know my story, then you know that I provide a majority of the day-to-day care for DS. I don't know how much that will weigh into the terms of a seperation agreement, as well as her infidelity. Does anyone know? Does the the filer of a seperation agreement dictate the terms of that agreement? The ideal scenario is for WW to get her own place (which would happen in D) and some sort of visitation schedule can be established (right now she thinks that I would get DS EVERY OTHER WEEKEND & 1 NIGHT/WEEK. That is really screwed up IMO).

All this would enable me to implement a true plan B. Until then, I need to suck it up and plan A, but be a more firm in establishing boundaries (i.e. financial, no illicit R's, etc).

Does anyone have experience in legal seperations? What can I expect from this?

Update, I just got off the phone with a different lawyer. He advised there were 3 ways to get a seperation done; legal seperation (unnecessary and costly), informal agreement (verbal or writing, definitely writing), file for D and have a temporary custody order issued. So, in order to get her out of house (force?), I would have to file for D and have a temporary custody order issued. Sixty days, then finalize or extend.

I really didn't want to hear this. Why should the WS have rights? Why do they get to walk all over us and get everything they want? Why can't she just move out, if that is what she says she wants, and we can get our seperation.

Epiphany. Because she is a cake-eater. She says she wants a D, but is not sure, or wants me to do the heavy lifting. Thanks Ark, I am seeing the light now. I am just one of those people who has to travel the road in my mind.

Hey Iron,

I went thru all of this. Do not move out, under any circumstances. Do not let children move out. Do not agree for her to have custody. Do not agree to 50/50 on the bills. Do not change anything on that stuff. Why?

Because you need to show yo uare stil lstanding for the marriage, not helping her dissolve it. ANYTHING that has to do with the dissolution of the marriage should be done by HER. The only exception is pursuing legal help in protecting your children. If she wants to talk about how to split things, tell her you are about being married...not about divorce. That you will never have a divorce discussion with her. Never. You see, in my case, I let my attorney worry about the divorce stuff, I worried about the marriage. That was how I was able to live with myself when I walked out of the courtroom with primary physical custody of our children. At first, my wife wanted to blame me. But I told her that I didnt do divorce, I do marriage. That she had pushed the divorce and court hearing. That because it dealt with divorce, I had nothing to do with it...that I left it ALL up to my attorney. That she lost custody due to her actions, and due to my attorney prosecuting his case. That I was still about the marriage.

It is a huge reason why we are together now. Never let her see that you have anything to do with divorce or ending the marriage unless you really, truly want to end the marriage!!

Now, my Plan B when I did it was not a full, dark Plan B. Due to not having an adequate intermediary and the fact I had the kids, some interaction was necessary. But, I set up distinct boundaries that I outlines in my PBL (yes, I did give her one). I set up a second phone line, with a distinctive ring, so she could call the kids...and so I wouldnt answer. I told her I would not talk to her directly, unless it was an emergency with the kids or something like that. That she could leave a voicemail, and then I would call back and leave a voicemail. That if she answered when I called back, I would immediately hang up. That when she came to pick up the kids or drop them off, I would not come to see her or meet her outside. That when she did come by to see them (like on Christmas Day 2002), they let her in...while I went upstairs. She knew not to come see me or talk to me.

You can do it i nthe same house, but it is hard. You can have the same boundaries. But in your situation, is the OM really there? If not, then maybe the problem is withdrawal.

I screwed up our first recovery because her withdrawal period drove me crazy. At first, she tried. But then she was depressed, and it drove me crazy. then she pulled back from me, and I went further crazy. I did not help the situation. I did not recognize what she was goign thru, and thus my reactions were mostly wrong.

Is that what is happening here? Her withdrawal can take awhile. Find a Pro-marriage MC. As Jl says, this is a job for professionals...recovery is NOT for the amateur. And definitely not for the two people that are in the middle of it. I am very good at seeing other's situations and what to do, but poor at seeign my own. That is why we all need help.

In His arms.

I agree with Mortarman regarding standing for marriage. On the other hand I know what you have been struggling with and something definitely needs to change. If you keep doing the same thing you'll keep getting the same results.

It needs to be some type of Plan B I think; something that takes care of you and lets you get back on an even keel and allows WW to start to feel consequences. Just thinking out loud here...

I would not shut the door on MC but I wouldn't bother with it if MC not pro-marriage.

It's easy for me to give advice to you when I don't have to live with it, but if I were in your situation I would start to draw away from her. I would not be intentionally cold but I think I would start to be unavailable for chit-chat unless absolutely critical that you talk.

The bottom line, I think is somehow the LBs has to stop; it's like you say, you're undoing all of your hard work. Perhaps, if she feels you drawing away she may notice and try to make more effort.

Perhaps you need to write her a loving letter explaining how you feel, how you have been trying to meet her needs and change yourself, and that you're at the end of your rope, and how you need to protect your love for her by avoiding any unnecessary contact.

Yes,yes,yes to MM and Legato. It is w/d, but WW says that this started a long time ago, 2 yrs ago. Her disconnect that is. Of course she was disconnected, prerequisite for an A. So, here is the question, how to proceed. I agree with you both, I have to be pro-M, but I also have to do something to change the sitch. Plan B, but how? It seems the only way i can legally protect myself is to force her out because she ain't leaving.

MM, you say to stay in the house, WW won't leave. Disconnect, withdraw, mental plan B. Small house, young child...impossible. So I do w/d, what happens, "see I told you it wouldn't work, we are not connecting"...validation.

I think the only way is w/total seperation. THe devil is in the details.

MC on for next week, the one thing I have is time as WW is ready to talk about D, but not file.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ironhead:
<strong> So I do w/d, what happens, "see I told you it wouldn't work, we are not connecting"...validation.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She can draw whatever conclusions that she wants. The fact of the matter is, you cannot save this marriage all by yourself. In spite of all of your good efforts, nothing seems to be getting through to her. If you explain what it is that you're doing and why, the ball is then in her court. If she concludes that it's hopeless then so be it. You can't contrrol what she thinks. She's already leaning in that direction anyway and you're holding her up. I'm only suggesting that you allow her to either fall or stand on her own two feet.

I'm not suggesting going dark; only dimming a bit. What have you got to lose? Take a break, do something for yourself, have some fun. Get away from all of the drama. Re-discover who Bear is.

I've been thinking about this all day. She has the green light to file, but won't. Is her timing not right, is she just getting things in order, or is she really not sure. She is pretty dang convincing to me.

So tyhe question is, should I be the first one to go? Should I file, see the reaction, always knowing i can pull the papers? I don't know. I am not ready for the D step. I don't want that right now. I haven't even plan B'd, but as discussed, that may not be possible.

Mortarman, I am going te reread your posts. WHat advice do you have. I value your opinion because I know your story and you have been through it all.

Hi - I've been watching your story develop while lurking, but I finally thought I might jump in here...You are right, if she is unwillinhg to leave, Plan B might be totally useless.

My question is, why are you hesitant to file for the D? DO you think you'll lose her? She hasn't filed - she's sitting on the fence. Are you afraid of losing assets? Filing that D will force her to examine the situation, and actually think about what is going on. Just because you file doesn't mean you need to go thru with the deed.

You might want to examine what is stopping you from taking steps that are clear enough for hre to see that she MUST make some sort of decision. She may just be trying to make oyur life miserable, she may be waiting for you to make a stand for the marriage that has meaning for her - or she may already be gone. In any case, if YOU take the initiative, in the interests of saving your marriage - you will always know that you did everything you did...no matter the outcome.

Sorry if this comes as a 2X4 to the head, but you sitting on the fence isn't sending her any positive messages at all. Step up to the plate, take the risk - you may be surprised at the result.

IN ANY EVENT, IT WILL CHANGE THE SITUATION YOU ARE IN, AND THAT, MY FRIEND, THAT YOU NEED.

David

<small>[ February 01, 2005, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>

No not a 2x4 there. I am just plain old too chicken to file, I guess. I would rather be hesitant and delay on that matter than I would jump the gun too quickly.

I whine but I know I do have the power to change my sitch. Right now, I am going to go with the advice of Ark and Mortarman.

I will refuse to talk about a D. I am pro-M man. Otherer posters have told me that this is w/d, this is going to take time. Many FWW gave their H's the same lines. There is still love left. I must control my anger when she instigates things. That I must do.

I'll know when to file. I still think it's too soon.

Hi Iron...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ironhead:
<strong> No not a 2x4 there. I am just plain old too chicken to file, I guess. I would rather be hesitant and delay on that matter than I would jump the gun too quickly.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm a pro-marriage man too, I do not believe the word DIVORCE should even be part of the vocabulary of a married couple. I do not adivse that ANYONE get a divorce. However, the control you have over your marriaqe - that is, the protection it requires - may require that you pull out the big gun to open some tightly closed eyes. If you can get thru to your wife's w/d you should by all means do so. Just keep in mind that you are working to save your marriage. It's the threat of the divorce that sometimes is required. God willing it will not be so in your case.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will refuse to talk about a D. I am pro-M man. Otherer posters have told me that this is w/d, this is going to take time. Many FWW gave their H's the same lines. There is still love left. I must control my anger when she instigates things. That I must do.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And that's so hard to do. Voice of experience here: I've done more damage to my marriage thru anger than just about any other thing. My prayers are with you.

David