I am very confused over whether it is worth even trying again after several false recoveries.

Typical situation - boy meets girl, they fall in love, marry and have two kids. They become increasingly disconnected while they both strive for the same goal - the happiness of WH.

Boy meets new girl who is oh so much more adventurous and exciting than girl #1. Boy has affair, is found out and promptly leaves his family.

Back and forth he goes, with each new false recovery seeming more promising but ending in the same way.

In the meantime, I have gone from SAHM with two babies under 3 to having two great jobs, my own place and a really fulfilling life.

I filed for divorce three weeks ago because I had given up. His somewhat stunned response was to want to try yet again. After spending the past year separated, with him either living across the country with OW or living overseas for a semester of school, he is now back in town and has his own place.

I have agreed to not actively pursue the divorce at this time and have requested the following things:

1) NC with OW for 3 months
2) Individual counselling for him
3) Tested for STDs
4) Written confession from him (yeah, a bit controversial, but the dishonesty and "lies of ommission" are getting to me)

My question is, now what? So I have decided that it is possible that we could recover. How do we get from here (brink of divorce) to there (recovery)? Is it even worth considering? What do I look for? Do we spend time together in the meantime? How do I begin to sort this out?

I hate to see a new thread go unanswered!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have agreed to not actively pursue the divorce at this time and have requested the following things:

1) NC with OW for 3 months
2) Individual counselling for him
3) Tested for STDs
4) Written confession from him (yeah, a bit controversial, but the dishonesty and "lies of ommission" are getting to me)

My question is, now what? So I have decided that it is possible that we could recover.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Two comments about this gris: You say "I have" twice. I don't think this is a question. But, has "he agreed?"

IMHO, one needs a plan--not necessarily plan a, but a plan. You have one. I disagree with a few things, though:
1) NC is NC--forever. I wouldn't put a deadline--there is no deadline. (I think I know what you are trying to do, but in the end, you are giving "permission" to cake eat again. Time to take the cake away forever--is he serious or not?)
2) why just IC for him? (Now, I have read all of your posts and you certainly sound like a very strong woman with a lot of verve and her head on straight, but why not MC? (You may have a great reason why, just not sure.)
3) GREAT idea.
4) my wife requested something like this from me. I don't think it's a bit controversial (IMHO) and would help the both of you. But while he's at it go back to #1 and have him write a NC letter too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How do we get from here (brink of divorce) to there (recovery)?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's all in the "we" part of it are you *BOTH* ready for recovery? (Read on.)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it even worth considering?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely! (Right?--my point--only you really can answer this. But can it work? Absoltely!)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do I look for? Do we spend time together in the meantime?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you've read about the plans and have been separted. This is a tough one, IMHO. I hope someone more experienced chimes in with an in depth answer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you hear this:

"I will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes to repair our marriage." ..... and he does what he says he'll do .... THEN you are "in recovery" .... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep answered this way to you almost a year ago. And it is still true.

I only have one other observation--I may be way off, and I am not trying to hit ya with a 2x4--just a little constructive criticism. He may be just a little intimidated by you. Like a black widow. Not that harsh, but similar traits--he is attracted by your strength and spunk and at the same time fearful of you for the same reasons.

Back in Feb 04, he actually initiated a conversation about your relationship--he, the WH. Now, I read this to be one of two things: 1) he just has no conscious and/or a sadist or 2) he really was attempting to reach out to you. How did you respond? What was your reaction?

The toughest thing for me as a FWH was to talk about the R or A. I think any WS is a conflict avoider. But he initiated this talk. There's not enough that you posted, but maybe, just "maybe", you also need to "work" on a few things. It's all about trust--for both the WS and BS.

I hope this helps a little. I'm sure more will jump in--as you know, weekends are slow.

And...don't wait another year to post, alright?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Best wishes and blessings,
LINY

Hi, griselda.

Have you read a book named "Love Must Be Tough" by Dr. James Dobson?

If not, I highly recommend that you get it and read it. Do NOT share it with your husband at this time.

It seems to me that whenever you set a boundary, your husband notices and responds.

Almost all relationships suffering from affairs, find the wayward spouse with a strong sense of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect for the other spouse.

When you draw very clear boundaries, and enforce them, your wayward spouse is likely to respond.

Please get a copy of this book and read it asap.

All the best,
Gimble

<small>[ January 29, 2005, 02:12 AM: Message edited by: Gimble ]</small>

Hello,

Thanks so much for responding, and for going back into my history, too!

To answer your questions, LINY:

Yes, he has agreed to these requests. He said of the individual counselling that in his experience (he has seen three counsellors short-term at various times this past year) it has no real effect other than to cost him $$. But that if I wanted him to do it, he would. (I brought up the fact that our church will pay for 12 sessions, so if he takes them up on the offer, no harm, no foul on the financial account.)

I hope I didn't make it sound as though NC has a potential end (either to you or to him!). What I meant was that there needs to be NC for 3 months before I can really get going into trying to recover yet again. In the past, I dove right back into it, sometimes only hours after he had ended things with her. And then when withdrawal started to sink in, or two or three days or weeks into it he started to miss her, he would contact her again. Sometimes he told me about it (to which I responded with "this hurts me very much but I thank you for being honest") but other times he didn't. I have discovered contact so many times that I am quite reluctant to get into a situation where I would have to do it again - hence the "let's see if you actually have some staying power on this one before I set myself up for being hurt again."

Also, sorry for the incomplete info - I am in IC and have been for a year. It has been an amazing growth experience for me. I have identified and come to terms with a lot of personal demons that I wouldn't have even thought existed. I have kept going through all of this and intend to keep going regardless of what happens.

I wondered about writing a NC letter at this point. Does it not just force the WS to go back into forbidden territory if s/he is trying to stay away? Or is it the only way to really put the affair to rest? I think the key here would be for me to help write it and for me to send it (or be in on the sending). They've "ended it" so many times and while he would request NC, neither kept it. I find having to request NC frustrating. I've been saying how important it was to me for over a year. I have responded to continued contact with varying responses - initially sadness but (hopefully) understanding, all the way to saying "I have asked you to end your relationship and you haven't and until you do, I will not contact you or respond to you anymore than is necessary for me and for our kids." (Yes, a Plan B letter, and it - I hope - contained many statements affirming my love for him and willingness to change what I need to change in order to foster a loving environment in our marriage.) I hate feeling like his mother or a cop, and have felt in the past that it was up to me to a) inspire him to have NC (i.e. by being such an amazing wife) and b) to enforce NC. I do not want to do either, so it is important to me that this is something he does on his own.

Did I do such an awful thing as to receive such a clear answer from Pepperband last year and not reply? Good heavens - I am terribly sorry. It was that answer that caused me a great deal of disillusion about this all, realizing that he was not committed to doing whatever it took. I've been lurking and gleaning tons of good insights, but always felt a bit, oh, presumptuous posting.

Hmm, black widow. Possibly. Probably, on some levels. I like to think that I respond to relationship talk with openness, but perhaps the initial openness turns into anger. Although I struggle with the sense that he doesn't "get it" yet - sometimes I feel as though I've been far too nice about everything. Perhaps this relates to Gimble's thoughts about the placement of boundaries leading to actions on his part.

How do I encourage talk about the affair? It is almost as if his attempts to be "nice" - asking me on dates, calling me at work just to chat - have entirely the opposite effect because I start to resent the fact that he seems to refuse to address that ol' elephant that's wandering around the room. Perhaps he is just testing the waters to determine the safety of unburdening, which is why part of me thinks it is okay to spend benign time together sans affair talk. However, as much as that might benefit him, I find it pretty hurtful.

Gimble, I read Dobson last year. I am not sure which part specifically you are thinking of, but I think I have slowly been establishing boundaries. Not always so hot at enforcing them, but working on it!

Thanks for your replies - they mean a lot.

Gris

gris,
I'm really hoping gimble and others continue to jump in--I have no experience with your sit, but just from observing, maybe that can help.

Bottom line is he has to be serious about this rebuilding/trust stuff! You've been at it for a long time, regardless if it was a strict plan a or b or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or is it the only way to really put the affair to rest? I think the key here would be for me to help write it and for me to send it (or be in on the sending). They've "ended it" so many times and while he would request NC, neither kept it. I find having to request NC frustrating. I've been saying how important it was to me for over a year. I have responded to continued contact with varying responses - initially sadness but (hopefully) understanding, all the way to saying "I have asked you to end your relationship and you haven't and until you do, I will not contact you or respond to you anymore than is necessary for me and for our kids." (Yes, a Plan B letter, and it - I hope - contained many statements affirming my love for him and willingness to change what I need to change in order to foster a loving environment in our marriage.)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My knowledge of plan b is don't you even think about rebuilding/retrusting him until he shows a great amount of effort. This includes NC. This includes following through your POJA 4 step plan. You asked if it was the only way to put the a to rest. Ultimately, that is his decision. BUT, there are things that should/to some extent, have to be done. NC HAS TO BE DONE. Exposure is another way to help put this to rest. If you haven't done so, and he is still cake-eating, then you should.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did I do such an awful thing as to receive such a clear answer from Pepperband last year and not reply?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awful for whom?
It sounds as if you're still at the same spot as you were a year ago--with one huge exception--you don't "need" him. The ball is proverbially in his court.

Don't back down from NC. Don't you start waffling like he has for so long. You've made your demands; stick to them. And you may want to add a few.

Best wishes to you!
LINY

Hi, Gris.

Regarding the 'no contact' letter. He writes it, you approve it, YOU send it to her, her parents, husband as appropriate.

Quote:
=================================
How do I encourage talk about the affair? It is almost as if his attempts to be "nice" - asking me on dates, calling me at work just to chat - have entirely the opposite effect because I start to resent the fact that he seems to refuse to address that ol' elephant that's wandering around the room. Perhaps he is just testing the waters to determine the safety of unburdening, which is why part of me thinks it is okay to spend benign time together sans affair talk. However, as much as that might benefit him, I find it pretty hurtful.

Gimble, I read Dobson last year. I am not sure which part specifically you are thinking of, but I think I have slowly been establishing boundaries. Not always so hot at enforcing them, but working on it!

=================================

At this point in the game, you don't 'encourage' talk about the affair, in fact, freely talking about the affair becomes one of your stipulations for his return. If he won't talk about the affair, all facets of the affair, then how can he ever hope to face the core issues in your relationship, much less guard against making the same stupid mistake over and over?

He is testing the waters to see if he can still walk all over you. He is testing your boundaries to see if they crumble at the slightest hint of pressure.

A boundary is not a boundary if it moves. Your relationship with your husband is suffering from a tremendous lack of respect. Your husband needs to earn his way back to the marriage. That will generate respect for him, in you. You must make his path back to the marriage one in which he has to face his weaknesses and mistakes. That will generate respect for you, in him.

People that respect each other have a much better chance of living together for an extended period of time. It is all just common sense.

Please go re-read Dobson's book. I bet you will get more out of it this time.

All the best,
Gimble

My thanks to you both. Why is it that when other people post I can come up with astute answers just like yours regarding their situations, but with my own situation it just seems so murky? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The issues you are raising are exactly the ones I am struggling with. LINY, you said (sorry, can't figure out how to insert quotations very well):

"My knowledge of plan b is don't you even think about rebuilding/retrusting him until he shows a great amount of effort"

Does this mean that spending time together before I see evidence of great effort and can then decide to really work on things from my end is at best, pointless and at worst, suggesting that I'm willing to somehow sweep everything under the rug? Right now we see each other quite a bit given that our kids get shuttled back and forth. Before he told me that he wanted to work on things and that the affair was over, I kept everything short and businesslike. But now?

Exposure was done a year ago as far as I could. OW was his classmate while we were out-of-province for his schooling. She broke up with her boyfriend over it, so no pressure on that end. His parents, my parents, need-to-know members of our church and all of our friends out here have known for some time. It was fairly easy for him to stay in contact with her; I simply couldn't go back to a strange city with no friends and live with him, so I stayed in my hometown and continued to rebuild the life I had left behind. Essentially I left him on his own with her. Quite convenient for him.

Now he is back in province. She lives half a country away, which makes certain aspects of this easier. NC is not optional. It never has been, as far as I'm concerned. But I'm weary of watching him agree with his mouth but act otherwise.

Working through the affair, talking about it in as gory detail as necessary in order to figure out what happened and what needs to happen in order for it not to happen again is a pre-requisite for me. I guess my question is, is this something that starts before he's earned his way back? (i.e. until NC is well-established and he has had some time on his own to try to face himself on an individual level, is this something we can/should do?)

Gimble, I'll find my copy of Dobson. I found the boundary/respect for your spouse part really eye-opening when I first read it (I was the poster child for "walk all over me - please!"). You are so right that respect is lacking on both of our parts. I feel that I now have the strength to establish and enforce boundaries. I think my problem is knowing where those boundaries should be.

The part I found ambiguous was what to do after the spouse returned. He had tremendous insights as to why lack of respect contributed to the decision to have an affair and how to raise one's head up and draw a line in the sand and say "no more!" and then work on oneself while awaiting the WS's return. But it was after the spouse returned that it got murky. I'll look into it again and try to find what I missed.

Many thanks,

Gris

Hi, Gris.

I understand your confusion about what to do now.

I just read Dobsons book for the first time myself. The principles contained therein are timeless as they are common sense. I found it a refreshing read.

Extrapolating those common principles into practice, for a marriage that has suffered from a lack of boundaries, appears at the outset to be a formidable task.

The key is to set only a few boundaries at a time. Those must be well understood, and definable.

Here is an example (for illustrative purposes only); when someone says "Why don't you just let him come back home?" You need to understand your boundary well enough to explain, in some detail, why that is a bad idea right now. "He has had 14 affairs, and until he can clearly define why he repeatedly committed adultery, and what he has done to correct the problem, then he can not come home.

This is the same type of response someone might use for a plan B when the wayward spouse wants to come back.

Wayward Spouse: "I want to come home. I am tired of this crap"
Betrayed Spouse: "Have you broken off contact with the other person?
Wayward Spouse: "No, but I will as soon as I come home"
Betrayed Spouse: "Contact me when you have met all the conditions of the (plan B) letter. Goodbye."

The verbal response in the above case, is the enforcement of the boundary and requires physical action on the part of the wayward spouse.

Wayward husband: "Will you stop the divorce while we try to work out the marriage?"
Betrayed Spouse: "No, but I will be happy to delay the proceedings upon proof of the conditions (whatever they are) being met. Then we can work on the marriage."

In this case, the boundary is enforced both verbally and physically (no cessation of proceedings).

I will be glad to work with you on this.

I have to do some work for the next few hours, but I will be available most of the weekend if you have questions for me.

All the best,
Gimble

Hi Gimble,

(I'm looking back over my posts and they're looooong. Sorry, I'm an English major - I've actually been attempting to keep them short and snappy - thanks for wading through them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I would say that my current boundaries are:

1) I am willing to temporarily delay the divorce proceedings while you try to meet my four conditions. (I'm hesitant to give a time limit on this one - I'm a procrastinator extraordinaire and deadlines only mean waiting until the last minute anyway)

2) Arg. You know you are a doormat when you can't even come up with #2. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I would like to establish a boundary regarding contact between us in our current situation. I find contact with him makes me feel ambivalent - the part of me that still loves him misses him a lot and enjoys just being together. The rest of me is filled with rage, disrespect and disgust regarding his continued poor choices and I feel yucky. I suspect he feels this ambivalence and would also appreciate a clarification as to what I want.

I've already asked that he not contact me at work unless there's an emergency because I want to have at least one place where I know I'm "safe" from him. He has improved in this area, but he still calls to ask what I would consider to be silly questions. I know, my bad for taking the calls.

It's tough; I find I am happier the less I hear from him. But if reconciliation is possible (and, LINY, I know in my head that it is certainly possible and could be worth it, but my heart is pretty battered and isn't so sure) then at some point I suspect we will have to talk.

Sigh. Thanks for bearing with me.

Gris

Hi, Gris.

Step one is to decide if you want him back in your life or not. Really think about it, because you might be surprised by what you decide.

For the sake of our conversation right now, we will assume that you do.

Quote:
===============================
1) I am willing to temporarily delay the divorce proceedings while you try to meet my four conditions. (I'm hesitant to give a time limit on this one - I'm a procrastinator extraordinaire and deadlines only mean waiting until the last minute anyway)
===============================

Okay. The first thing to do is write out your stipulations. Be specific. Put it in a short readable form that he can refer to often.

Make sure you add your list from another post;

Quote:
================================
1) NC with OW for 3 months
2) Individual counselling for him
3) Tested for STDs
4) Written confession from him (yeah, a bit controversial, but the dishonesty and "lies of ommission" are getting to me)
================================

I would add a "no contact" letter written by him, and mailed by you.

Also, of great importance, would be seeing the original copy of the medical test results. I would also want proof of his attending the counseling sessions.

Further more, he should not abide in your home, but live on his own and make provisions for his family's financial needs in the interim.

I think that three months is a good time frame for him to establish his intentions and meet the stipulations. You can date if you like in the mean time, but no sex until the tests are back and you are certain that he is keeping it in his pants. Remember, you are trying to keep dumb things to a minimum this go-around :-)

You are not trying to be purposefully harsh here. You, in fact, are being very kind and generous with him. Do you remember your pain? Do you want more just like it? I didn't think so.

At this point, your relationship is already over. You can never go back to what you were, nor can your relationship ever return to a pre-affair condition. That condition is part of what landed you here. Repeating the previous mistakes would truly be a shame. It is also unnecessary.

You must build a new relationship, one based on mutual respect, and provable trust. You can never again trust a human with blind trust. This is not a bad thing, it is in fact, common sense.

By setting and observing boundaries, both spouses can find a place of mutual respect, and begin building real trust.

Back off my soapbox, let's deal with the telephone issue :-)

"Ring"

wife: "Hello"

hubby: "I know you don't want me calling you at work, but I needed to know if you cooked those beans I bought"

wife: "I have asked you not to call me at work unless it is an emergency. Is this an emergency?"

hubby: "No, but I wanted to..." CLICK
Wife has hung up.

He won't like being hung up on, but what he must realize is that it is HIS fault, not yours.

If it happens often enough, he will stop the behavior. Most importantly, it will begin to cement in his mind, the fact that you mean what you say.

This may seem like such a trivial thing, but it is the beginning of a proper relationship.

Once he starts respecting you, he will begin to respect himself. Respect is very different from entitlement.

quote:
=====================================
The rest of me is filled with rage, disrespect and disgust regarding his continued poor choices and I feel yucky. I suspect he feels this ambivalence and would also appreciate a clarification as to what I want.
=====================================

Of course you feel yucky, what has he shown you that you can respect?

His issues with you stem largely from his inability to pin down jello (you).

Both of you are going to have to change if you want to recover the relationship.

So, if you decide to write a letter/list for your husband, what would it look like?

All the best,
Gimble

gris...not much to add what gimble already has--you're in "good hands!"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would say that my current boundaries are:
1) I am willing to temporarily delay the divorce proceedings while you try to meet my four conditions. (I'm hesitant to give a time limit on this one - I'm a procrastinator extraordinaire and deadlines only mean waiting until the last minute anyway)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You do not/can not be wishy washy with your boundaries. Make them known and VERY clear to him.

I think gimble summed it up wonderfully this way:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You must build a new relationship, one based on mutual respect, and provable trust. You can never again trust a human with blind trust. This is not a bad thing, it is in fact, common sense.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Best wishes to ya and blessings--I'll be reading for some optimistic posts from you in the future!
LINY

"In good hands" is right.

To be honest, I'm still ambivalent about whether I want him back in my life (as in "of two minds" not "apathetic"). Part of me really misses him, who he was and the person I know he could be because I used to know that person. But part of me wonders if this leopard can change its spots (particularly after Cerri's sobering post - Cerri if by any chance you ever read this, my prayers are with you).

But assuming for now that this is what I do want (because I can't say for sure that I don't want it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ), a letter for my husband stating what I need to see happen before I will be willing to reconcile would list:

1) NC with OW (3 months being a "trial period" during which this and other conditions are met, but by no means would NC be anything but forever)
2) Proof of individual counselling
3) Proof of being tested for STDs
4) The aforementioned written confession
5) A NC letter written by him but sent by me
6) Proof of every effort made on his part to prevent her from contacting him (i.e. changing phone #s and email addresses etc.)
7) Agreement to attend MC with me at the end of a successful meeting of these conditions

How does that sound?

To update, we talked about our relationship some more tonight. I asked him about contact, and while he changed his email address, he still keeps checking the old one to make sure he "hasn't left anyone out" since the transfer. Apparently OW keeps emailing him but he doesn't read them. (Sigh) I said that I do not want there to be any opportunity for her to contact him at all and requested he change that account and also change his cell phone # (she hasn't called it, but it is the only # of his that he says she has). He agreed.

I also brought up a NC letter sent by me. He also agreed to that. I am disturbed that his "ending" their relationship was basically "this isn't going to work out and it's over" which, to me, leaves room for the interpretation that if she tries hard enough to convince him that it could work out, there would be room to begin negotiations between the two of them. I want it to be said very clearly that the relationship was wrong, not that it just didn't "work out" and that he is choosing NC for the sake of his marriage.

I like the phone call boundary idea. Since I've been a tad confusing by saying "don't call me" and then taking the calls, to me it would make sense to restate that boundary before I implement enforcing it.

To be honest, the thought of living together again freaks me out a bit, so I don't see that changing soon. He has almost a year left in his lease, so he's stuck there for awhile. He is also paying child support (finally) and his share of daycare expenses, so there are good signs there.

I love what you said about the new marriage. It is the idea of that new relationship built on mutual respect that helps me work through the fear of being "trapped" and that he somehow represents a return to the "old" me. He said tonight that he hoped I hadn't changed too much. I said I hoped I had! Rather, I don't see it as "change" as much as I see it as "refining." I'm not a different person now, I'm just more me.

Ever read William Blake's "Songs of Innocence" and "Songs of Experience"? The "old" marriage was the songs of innocence - lots of sheep and idyllic pastures, but lots of stasis and ultimately, stagnation. If there is a "new" marriage, it will be one of experience - more tigers prowling about with their (contained) threat, but far more action and passion and growth. Experience is ultimately more satisfying, but, sigh, there was something to be said about thinking that "happily ever after" actually existed.

Again, my thanks to you. LINY, here's hoping there are lots of optimistic posts! And, btw, your response on Brown's ring thread was incredibly moving. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Gris

Hey darlin' of course I'm reading. You don't really think I'm going to sleep tonight now do you? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Yes, my story is sobering and it really highlights the need for extreme accountability and precautions - particularly for repeat offenders.

I don't know if your marriage can be saved. I do though that a whole lot of them can and ARE. It's what I do for a living so I see miracles every day. Far more often than I see horror stories (like mine). <sigh> Someday maybe I'll tell you about "My Life as a Guinea Pig."

Here's a couple of differences between your situation and mine. Steve is not the father of my children. He has never made an effort to integrate into the family or to be an integral part of their lives. I understand that what's happening in my marriage will have a direct impact on the kids - particularly the younger ones - but it is not even close to the impact divorce will have on your children.

That's not to say that you should live in a situation that is offensive, painful, or degrading for you just for the kids. Not at all. I just mean that you have more incentive to make it work than I might. (And just so you know - I've been doing this for 7 years. We counselled with Jenn in person, with Dr. Bill Harley, went to the MB weekend, and worked with Steve. Most recently we've had the help and support of the **edit** staff whom I handpicked and trained myself.)

Your list of conditions is a good start. But I'm not seeing anything there about accountability moving forward. Time, money, and whereabouts must be open and verifiable 24/7.

I'd also like to see you put a timeline on when you will be in Plan B and I'd like that to be sooner rather than later. As soon as you go to PlB then I'd like to talk about really upping the ante in terms of conditions for reconciliation.

BTW - talking about the marriage - pretty much pointless unless you get a written agreement to make active changes.

C

Cerri, I'm crying. Because to think that in this dark moment of yours you are still out there in the trenches, seeking to help others recover a marriage when your own situation could make you want to say "nope, not worth it, not for me or for anyone" - it's barely fathomable to me. I am so, so sorry that this is happening to you. You and your children are heavy on my heart and my prayers are with you.

To ask for your help right now feels kind of like asking someone who has just miscarried a baby to babysit my kids. But as you were unbelievably gracious enough to respond to my posts, I will of course answer.

Yes, he is the father of my kids. That alone has kept me here a lot longer than I suspect I would have been otherwise. Not only that, he is for the most part a "good" dad (if you can be a good father while not being a good husband). He is very involved in the kids' lives and gets "down and dirty" with whatever they need (well, except for child support for an entire year and not bothering to hop on a plane when our son was hospitalized with double pneumonia etc.).

The thought of my kids growing up with us not together gives me great pause. My daughter still draws lots of pictures of the four of us (for some awful days awhile back she was drawing pictures of when we got married - bouquets and all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). To know that I was the one who permanently shattered the possibility of them remaining in an intact family would be difficult.

Accountability is a tough one for me. Not that I think he shouldn't be accountable. But my past experience makes me reluctant to get into a situation where I am checking up on him because a) it only makes him find alternate methods of contact (i.e. what's the point of checking email accounts when he just creates new ones?) and b) I am one of those idealistic folks who questions the value of moral actions based solely on the motivation of "not getting caught."

As well, we've both identified that I have been too much of a "mother figure" for him in the past. I fear that me having to check up on him only perpetuates a cycle where he feels smothered by me and squirms to get free and where I take responsibility for actions that are his.

That said, if I could somehow feel more secure that he was indeed doing all it took to be in NC and that I had proof that that was the case, I think a move towards recovery would be much easier.

It also struck me this morning (was pretty slow on the uptake on this one - it was late last night) that whether or not he opens them, her emailing him IS contact. It is contact that he permits and, by not taking the necessary steps to remove himself from her, encourages. This is absolutely not okay with me.

I am curious about the suggestion to have a pending Plan B. I've done Plan B-ish-es in the past (yup, I know that there is no such thing as a "modified Plan B" so I fully admit that I screwed them up). Our separation is to the point that it's much more likely I could get past those darn logistics that seem to derail everyone. But why? Plan B is to first and foremost to protect the BS and (hopefully) aid in the hastening of the ending of the affair. This assumes the BS wants to save the marriage, no?

I filed for divorce not because I wanted to push him off the fence but because I wanted to move on with my life. It had the effect of pushing him off the fence, but I ain't so sure I want Mr. "grass is greener on the other side" back in my yard. He's come and gone a lot of times. Why consider Plan B when I'm the one who initiated Plan D? (I don't mean that flippantly; I am still hugely uncertain whether the potential for a recovered marriage - which I still see as there - is worth the risk of being hurt again - which I also still see as there.)

However, any further advice on how to "up the ante" or at least clarify what needs to happen before we would try to reconcile would definitely help me as I try to figure that out. And the written agreement makes a lot of sense. Even yesterday he somehow had "forgotten" that there were four conditions (that pesky confession seemed to have slipped his mind).

Blessings to you Cerri,

Gris

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To be honest, I'm still ambivalent about whether I want him back in my life (as in "of two minds" not "apathetic"). Part of me really misses him, who he was and the person I know he could be because I used to know that person. But part of me wonders if this leopard can change its spots (particularly after Cerri's sobering post - Cerri if by any chance you ever read this, my prayers are with you).
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I understand your concern. While a leopard can not change his spots, a person most certainly can change. That is the key difficulty with humans and hard rules. So the real question becomes one of degree of risk. Do you risk great pain and emotional upheaval with your guy, or do you suffer through the pain of divorce and eventually try another one on for size. That is indeed, a tough decision.

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But assuming for now that this is what I do want (because I can't say for sure that I don't want it ), a letter for my husband stating what I need to see happen before I will be willing to reconcile would list:

1) NC with OW (3 months being a "trial period" during which this and other conditions are met, but by no means would NC be anything but forever)
2) Proof of individual counselling
3) Proof of being tested for STDs
4) The aforementioned written confession
5) A NC letter written by him but sent by me
6) Proof of every effort made on his part to prevent her from contacting him (i.e. changing phone #s and email addresses etc.)
7) Agreement to attend MC with me at the end of a successful meeting of these conditions

How does that sound?
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That sounds like a good start, but as others have mentioned, add accountability items such as email passwords, cell phone records, banking, credit cards, etc.

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To update, we talked about our relationship some more tonight. I asked him about contact, and while he changed his email address, he still keeps checking the old one to make sure he "hasn't left anyone out" since the transfer. Apparently OW keeps emailing him but he doesn't read them. (Sigh) I said that I do not want there to be any opportunity for her to contact him at all and requested he change that account and also change his cell phone # (she hasn't called it, but it is the only # of his that he says she has). He agreed.
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The other woman has no need to know his email address, or his physical address or anything about him for that matter. The less she knows, the better. Old addresses need to be deleted. He can send his new address to people that actually have a proper use for it.

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I also brought up a NC letter sent by me. He also agreed to that. I am disturbed that his "ending" their relationship was basically "this isn't going to work out and it's over" which, to me, leaves room for the interpretation that if she tries hard enough to convince him that it could work out, there would be room to begin negotiations between the two of them. I want it to be said very clearly that the relationship was wrong, not that it just didn't "work out" and that he is choosing NC for the sake of his marriage.
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The only verbiage I would insist on would include something like; "The relationship is ended" and "Never contact me again for any reason". Don't waste your time feeding him your thoughts about the other woman or telling him what his reasons for ending the relationship are. That will just fuel resentment.

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I like the phone call boundary idea. Since I've been a tad confusing by saying "don't call me" and then taking the calls, to me it would make sense to restate that boundary before I implement enforcing it.
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It is small, but it is a start. Learning to say what you mean and meaning what you say, is in my opinion, a basic human kindness. I would much rather deal with a person that will be honest and kind with me.

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To be honest, the thought of living together again freaks me out a bit, so I don't see that changing soon. He has almost a year left in his lease, so he's stuck there for awhile. He is also paying child support (finally) and his share of daycare expenses, so there are good signs there.
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I am glad he is paying his share. Taking responsibility for one's obligations is an indication of maturity. As for the lease, there are usually proper ways to get out of them if the need arises.

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I love what you said about the new marriage. It is the idea of that new relationship built on mutual respect that helps me work through the fear of being "trapped" and that he somehow represents a return to the "old" me. He said tonight that he hoped I hadn't changed too much. I said I hoped I had! Rather, I don't see it as "change" as much as I see it as "refining." I'm not a different person now, I'm just more me.
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I think it would be a really good idea for the two of you to date for a while before you make a final decision.

The simple fact is, you don't know what he is made out of right now. You know what he was before and during the affair, but you have no idea what he has become, or even if he has changed at all. In your situation, TIME is the weapon of choice for dividing asunder. Time will let you see who he is and if he has changed, or if all his latest efforts are just so much hot air.

For a while, keep him at arms length. Let him know precisely what you expect of him, then step back and let him stand or fall. You can NOT help him along. This path is for him alone. This is your time of strength, and his time to prove himself. If you set your standards any lower, you may not like what you get back.

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Ever read William Blake's "Songs of Innocence" and "Songs of Experience"? The "old" marriage was the songs of innocence - lots of sheep and idyllic pastures, but lots of stasis and ultimately, stagnation. If there is a "new" marriage, it will be one of experience - more tigers prowling about with their (contained) threat, but far more action and passion and growth. Experience is ultimately more satisfying, but, sigh, there was something to be said about thinking that "happily ever after" actually existed.
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I haven't read any of his work, but I understand what you are saying. Growing up and facing the real world challenges of a relationship are tough, and often unromantic. Relationships can also be very rewarding.

Please keep us posted.

Gimble.