A bit of background then I'll get to the questions...please bear with me, my brain has turned to oatmeal.<P>Some of you have read my posts and realize that I'm not a plan A role model. Almost a year after H confessed his affair in our counseling session and I'm no further along than I was the day I found out. I feel so useless, hopeless, angry, depressed, etc. etc. etc. And unfortunately, I am very bitter. I told my H during a 3 hour debate (well more like me talking away and him just sitting there) that I was going to make his future life hell. I threatened to call his boss and say awful things (even made up stuff) just to get him in trouble. I threatened to "stalk" his every move. I threatened to hire a P.I. to dig up some "dirt" on Miss Mia to make her appear to be unsuitable material to be around my kids. And he just sat there, saying nothing. Okay, I'm going out of my mind. It's obvious, dont you think, that H does not want any part of this marriage. Not one glimmer of hope that he has made any feeble attempt to show remorse on his part.<P>Here's my question to you lady betrayers: Didn't you ever stop to think during your affairs with someone else's H that the wife would be deeply and emotionally hurt? Does it bother you now? Did the wayward husband show you affection and emotional connection that he no longer showed his wife? What about the betrayed spouses like me who now endure day in and day out complete chaos in their minds? Did/does this ever bother you? I'm just wondering if while you were with the OM in your life, was guilt an emotion or feeling that was no longer present?<P>I want to understand, and I can't. <P>Sorry so long on words...

i'm sorry i'm not familiar with your story...i've been here a long time but not as much recently...<BR>okay i betrayed my H first (you can read my profile). during and for a few months after i would not let myself feel guilt. i can't possibly explain how your able to justify this in your head. but no one wants to feel they've done a scummy thing , even if they know it. i pumped myself up with justification. it lasted for a while.<BR>the big thing for you is ....is your husbands affair over? and is she completely out of the picture? if it is and she is...then it is disheartening that you cannot find a way to treat him better. you know you will not recover while you berate and belittle him. i know that's extremely difficult because things trigger you and stuff. <BR>if it's not over or she's still around somehow, then i understand why you cannot get to a better place with him. then you need to do something to change that...<BR>sorry this is so abrupt....i'm at work....and need to go...<P>------------------<BR>Kellie<BR>Sometimes Love Just Ain't Enough<P>

Dear Tired Lady,<P>I thought all the time about his wife, I felt terrible all the time about it. That is why I tried to end it before it started, at the beginning, in the middle and then I did end it. He was the one who kept begging me to stay in, who pressured me etc and who would never end it. Not that he wanted to marry me....he just wanted both. <P>I grew to resent his wife because she was able to go about her merry way in oblivion while I had her husband bothering me and making my life hell.<P>Guilt was an emotion that was ALWAYS present with me. He once said that he thought there was something wrong with him, he didn't feel guilty. I felt awful for his little children, I carried the guilt for both of us. I have spent hundreds on therapy. After I had ended it one time and he called because he didn't want to end it, I tried to tell him (once again) why we needed to end the relationship. He just laughed and said "Your'e a mess!" <P>I don't know if he showed me affection that he no longer showed his wife. I figured he was showing her affection too, I don't know if that is a question that an OP can really answer, they don't know what is really going on in the marriage. <P>Lest you think otherwise, I have a husband and three children, i did not initiate the relationship and I ended it. I ended it before my husband figured it out, but he did figure it out because the OM called my house once again, after I had told him not to call. My marriage almost ended because of this. My husbands anger was terrible. So, believe me, I too have been enduring the complete chaos in my life and mind. I'm sorry for your pain but my life hasn't been a lot of fun either.

Hi, TL. I'm sorry you're in so much agony right now. I know it's a very painful place to be.<P>Yes, I felt awful for the wife of the OM. She was a friend of mine. (but that didn't stop me) However, I ended the affair and told her I was sorry THREE times. It's up to her to forgive me.<P>Didn't Mia say she ended the affair, and no longer has contact with your H? And I know she apologized and feels awful about what she did ... and I know you haven't been able to accept that apology yet. I understand that.<P>But I don't think threatening to make your H's life a living hell is the way to turn him around, ya know? And in the end what good will it do you? You will be bitter and angry ... and it will ruin your life in the long run.<P>I don't know anything about WHEN the time is to give up on a relationship. I know withdrawal is hard on the betrayer ... I'm still in it at times. But I just can't believe that you doing all this threatening will help the situation at all. If anything, you'll just make him feel even more hopeless ... and in the long run you're really pushing him away.<P>True love doesn't threaten like that. At least I don't think so ... JMHO though.<P>

Well from what I read from those of you who responded is that you all have your own way of dealing with being involved with someone else's spouse. I often wonder how betrayers would feel if the shoe were on the other foot. Impossible to know how I'm "feeling" unless you've been where I am. I cannot explain what life is like for me, watching, waiting, wondering while the rest of the world just moves forward with the business of living.<P>Maya: Yes, Mia came here to post her appology. Yes, she "says" she broke it off with my H, not the other way around. He says he "loves" her still. Do I believe him? How do you believe someone who has lied to you for months? How do you believe that he wants to work on saving a marriage when he won't even acknowledge my existance unless I initiate a conversation? All of a sudden I'm to believe him? <P>And I admit, nothing good will come from my threats to my H. I'm sure the only thing happening is more alienation between us. Sorry I've sounded so negative about being in a healing process - it's much easier to have a willing partner want to repair the damage he inflicted on this family than to do all the repair myself. Don't you agree?

How did MY husband know that I wasn't lying? Because he knew he had to trust me .... or else we'd never get anywhere. And yes, I lied again and talked to the OM. And yes, my H accepted my confession and apology and went on trusting me.<P>And I wasn't a willing participate in restoring our marriage for many many months after the break off of the affair. I stared off into space ... cried for the OM ... was just "there" at the house ... but that was enough for my H at the time because he was trusting God to work a miracle. <P>At some point that's all you can do. Give it over to God. Realize that you can't do this yourself, that you need His help to get thru it. Your H may never come back, or he may turn around in a couple of months.<P>To NOT trust him is another lovebuster, right? If you love him you don't have a choice ... trust him with your eyes wide open.<P>I don't believe Mia's any concern of yours now. She's out of the picture physically, but will be in your H's mind for quite a while. It's been a year for me and I still have thoughts of the OM. It fades.<P>All you can do is be patient and loving while he's in withdrawal. Like I said before, threatening him won't help at all -- and probably drives the wedge further between you. <P>He's with you .... he's evidently chosen YOU, correct? Otherwise he'd be filing for divorce right now.

Maya: Your advise is well-taken. I hope Tired Lady reads it. Telling a person that you will make his life a living hell is not exactly the way to entice him to stay. Making phone calls to his work, etc. is just as childish and selfish as the affair. He will eventually leave if this is all he gets. Two wrongs don't make a right. I say to Tired Lady - give him some time. He is grieving over a loss in his life (just like you are). It will not last forever but bitterness and revenge are not the answer. Pray that God will begin to change his heart and yours as well.

Tired Lady,<BR>You are correct, you are alienating him by carrying on but.... now you have an oppertunity to change your attitude (and hopefully his too). This is going to be tough but do it anyway. The emotions you are feeling have a mind of thier own and they are not going to get off this ride for a while unfortunatly, but having said that force yourself to do a 180 degree change. No matter what your emotions tell you change how you behave. Not neccessarily treating him like a king but changing you. Adopt an attitude of confidence in what you do. Only let him see the side of you that can take care of herself, show him a beauty that is inside you. Is it next to impossible to do? Not impossible but damn hard. Is it a game? No, because if you start portraying this consistently, your emotions will "catch up" to the actions and you will at the very least feel better about you.<BR>The next thing I would do (and have done) is to make a list of all the things that are causing the chaos in your life, mentally bundle them up and lay them at the feet of Jesus. If this sounds like its hollow or trite it's not. If you can actually understand that there is nothing you can do in this situation to turn it around then with everything you've got give it away and then anticipate a peace that you have not felt in a long time. I really think if you start making you better and stop trying to fix your marriage so God can start, you will see a difference.<BR>Take care of you....<BR>Michael

Maya:<P>I wish I was as optimistic as you have been. Big difference is that your H has forgiven your infidelity and actually wants to work on the marriage. I can't forgive or forget, and my H doesn't want to work on anything. As far as "choosing" me, no, that's not true. He's here because his children live here. Not for me. And finally, divorce, it comes up every single night as the topic of the day. It's inevitable that I foresee this happening, I just don't have an exact time period.

TL, if you can't forgive and forget then there's little hope for your marriage anyway. I'm so sorry to say that ... my H has been unbelieveable. I know he had to have been CRUSHED by my affair, crushed to hear me profess my love for another man ... but he CHOSE to forgive ... because he loves me so much.<P>If you love him and want him in your life, you will have to prove that to him. No, it will NOT happen overnight ... or next week ... or even next month.<P>It doesn't sound like you want him there anymore than he wants to be there. Not exactly a combination for restoration ....

tired lady,<P>It can work out, even if he is just there for the kids (for now). I stayed with my H after my affair only for the kids. I swore that I would never love him the way I loved OM, and it actually made me sick to have sex with my own husband. I knew for sure it would come to divorce, and actually started thinking about what would be a good age for the kids for us to do so ( I wondered "should I do it while they're so young they won't remember otherwise, or stick it out till they're gone?" ) I went through all of this. But a year later, after withdrawal and then really committing myself to H and to being happy, I don't feel that way any longer. <P>You can forgive him, and he can love you again. Doing it for the kids is ENOUGH for now.

Tired Lady,<P>Someone with the shoe on the other foot here!! I am in the unique and unenviable position of having to eat exactly what I dished out, and you're right, no one can truly comprehend what that feels like unless its happened to them.<P>But, in the strangest way, this dual role has afforded me a lot of understanding that I otherwise may not have had. During my affair, no, I did not feel guilty about his W. The picture he painted of her prevented me from feeling sorry for her. He portrayed her as indifferent to him. He told me she rarely spoke to him, refused to accompany him places, never asked him about his work, his hobbies, his aspirations, and never wanted to make love to him. He'd told me that they no longer loved each other, their marriage was basically over, and it was just a matter of time before he called it quits. I realize now how stupid of me it was to believe that hogwash, but at the time, it was exactly what I needed for him to say in order to go through with the affair. I certainly wasn't going to have an affair with a man who told me he was still in love with his wife! He knew that, so he said what needed to be said to get the job done.<P>Now, switching shoes for a moment, the fact that OM did this to me really helped me understand that my H probably did the exact same thing to his OW. I'm sure he painted a very unfavorable picture of me, and since she didn't know me from Adam, she believed him. He'd have never gotten into her pants if he'd told her how much he loved me. He knew that, just like my OM knew that. <P>And this is also why I've never considered it personal between H's OW and me. She didn't know me. She was duped by him, receiving only his tainted side of the story, just like OM did to me. <P>Knowing what I know now, how affairs are all b.s., I could never participate in an affair again. I will not allow myself to be duped like that again. I deserve much better than that. And I wouldn't be able to stand the guilt because now I know that just because the MM says this and that about his W doesn't make it true. Another painful lesson learned.<P>Hope this helps answer your questions.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

New Woman: I wish I had the luxury of "knowing" what my H has told Mia about me. But I don't. Fact is that most of what you said the OM said to you is probably accurate of what H has told Mia.<BR>Maya: You are right about alot of things. I don't particularly want him around right now, probably as much as he would like to be out of here. Love him? Yes, I love him. But loving him isn't enough. I could "pretend" to be happy with myself, and love him till the cows come home and it wouldn't change how he feels.

"Didn't you ever stop to think during your affairs with someone else's H that the wife would be deeply and emotionally hurt?"<P>No, like New Woman said the OM painted a negative picture of his wife...still does. Saying his entire family wore black to their wedding, how she doesn't listen to him, how he had to sleep with one eye open the first few years of marriage, etc. I could go on forever. He told me they haven't liked each other for years. Plus, it didn't help when his sister did the same thing.<P>Does it bother you now? <BR>Sometimes, but not really. The OM tells me that he is staying with his wife for his child and that doesn't make me believe that he loves her. I know I have no right, but sometimes I actually hate the OMs wife. I feel that she treats him like crap, doesn't really like him and doesn't deserve him. But he could be all talk...if it was really that bad, he'd leave.<P>Did the wayward husband show you affection and emotional connection that he no longer showed his wife? <BR>I know he was still having sex with her. That hurt me and that's why I didn't want to continue an affair...he wanted the best of both worlds. Maybe he could have lived like that, but I couldn't. Just goes to show that he has no feelings. He said he couldn't understand why I didn't think that someone could love two people. Maybe you can, but it can't really be love if you have to lie to the person you "love".<P>What about the betrayed spouses like me who now endure day in and day out complete chaos in their minds? Did/does this ever bother you?<BR>If I knew that this is how the OMs wife felt, yes it would bother me. But I don't know if she feels this way.<P>I'm just wondering if while you were with the OM in your life, was guilt an emotion or feeling that was no longer present?<BR>I wasn't with the OM very long because I didn't want to feel guilty...I didn't want to live a lie. But, when it first happened I have to say I felt no guilt. We actually said to each other we felt no guilt because it felt so right...and we couldn't deny ourselves each other.<BR>

Holly:<BR>Thanks for being so honest. My H didn't have sex with me while he was with Mia. In fact, he still doesn't touch me at all. The last time we had sex was last December. This is one of the biggest reasons I think H still sees her. He's sex drive is much more active than mine ever was. I can't imagine that he is just "abstaining". I also wonder if she (ow) "hates" me for all the crap I've put my H through since his confession of the affair. I guess that's not my problem to worry about.

Tired Lady--<BR>Honestly, I never liked the way that Mia intruded on the forum to apoligize to you in "public". That was a major violation of your privacy.<P>Is there a way you could find out if your husband is still seeing Mia?

Holly:<P>Short of "stalking" my H's every move, don't know how to either prove or disprove he's seeing her or not. He says he's 3 weeks behind on a major project so he's working late tonight (he does this about once per week or so.) So, I offered to come to his office and bring him dinner, or we could meet somewhere. He told me that wouldn't be a good idea. That the purpose behind working late was to get work done so he could go home and not be so behind the next day. I would be taking away that hour of his time.... Do I believe he's working? Don't know. I do know he has alot of responsibilities there, but I just as easily could see this as Mia's opportunity to spend time with him, even if it's at his office. (they work at the same company) Maybe I'll just drive there and wait and see (incognito of course) what time he leaves and who leaves with him...

I was never betrayed...it may be considered a love buster. But I believe you deserve to find out for your own piece of mind. I say go to the office and find out...just don't let him know. Because if he is really working, he'll probably be angry at you for checking up on him.<P>Good Luck.

Holly - thanks. I was way ahead of you. I've already made up my mind that I will drive the hour drive to his office and do a "stakeout" per se. If she's there, god help them!

Tired Lady,<P>I'm a bit late with this response, but hopefully it will help shed some light for you anyway.<P>I hestated to write on this thread because I am almost sick with re-remembering the affair. But I want you to understand that not all OW are the same. I'm assuming that I will anwser some of your questions just like other OW did... and then some, I will sound different from them. Also remember, I have been the W who discovered my H's affair. How well I remember the pain!<P>Well, here goes. If it's okay, I'm just going to write and answer your questions kinda all at once:<P>The W, in my case, was a common-law wife who begged the OM to marry her, but he never would. They've been together nine years. I wondered why she stayed with a man who wouldn't commit. She was nice enough, not very attractive, and the OM (OF COURSE) painted a picture of someone who was needy, clingy, no fun, not sexual, and basically a bore. I believed him. I tried not to think about her OR my H. <P>After the affair, I thought about her plenty. I saw her for what she really was: a woman who's man had been stolen from under her nose, a woman who has low self esteem, a woman who doesn't know the extent of the affair but is threatened nonetheless, a woman who deserved better. <P>Guilt? The *WORST* for me, but more for my H than for the pain I caused her. I guess I thought that whatever was between them (the OM and her) was theirs alone. I didn't want a part in it. I know, I was a part whether I wanted to be, or not.<P>Now what I feel is numbness toward her. I don't want to see her, to face her. I don't want to cause her any more pain than she already has. The one thing I would like to say is that I always felt that I caused my H pain and the OM caused his W pain. I honestly didn't think of us together causing them pain. <P>I hope this helps, although I'm not sure how it will. I hated the OW (there were two confirmed) in my H's life. I HATED them with a passion and STILL fight the urge to think about them. So, I do understand your wanting to know and understand. I met the second OW and she apologized to me, but it didn't help really. You had to hear from that Mia person, who by the way, was WAY out of line coming here, in my opinion, and DID IT HELP? I don't think so. See what I mean??<P>------------------<BR>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<BR>