MB-folks,

This has been a pretty ground-shaking day; an earthquake of pain hit us ALL I think when we found out that Cerri's H had a ONS. Cerri. Our Cerri. The one we all admire so much, who is so wise about M's and A's. The one who has helped almost as many people as star*fish and believer, and the one to whom star*fish and believer refer people!

How in the world did this happen? How is this possible? The only equivalent I can think of would be if Mrs. Harley Sr. had an A!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

But I think one of the questions we all wonder, and no one has had the brass ones to bring up, is: "If CERRI can't create a loving marriage, how in the world can I?? I mean, she KNOWS about EN's and LB's and Plan A and Plan B and affair chemistry and EVERYTHING!! She's an expert!!! She's GOT to know how to have a happy marriage--'cuz if she doesn't...who in the world DOES??"

Right??

First, I suggest we talk about this. I know that at first, I felt just...like STUNNED is not even enough. Of course, no R is perfect, but I guess I sort of assumed that someone who knew so much about R's and A's would also have at least a pretty good M herself. It's a bit unnerving, as if a foundation has been broken, to discover that it's not so.

Next, not that I expected Cerri to be perfect ('cuz I know her better than that!--heehee), but I think I did hold her to a different, higher standard than like you or me. After all, we are just "normal" people, and she was an "expert". Now, I'm not saying this was fair of me or even wise, but that's the way it was. That's the way it is when you present yourself as a leader too--expectations are higher and different.

I have to admit, I never really thought of her H having a ONS, but IF HE EVER DID, I thought she might react all wise and mature...like she tells us to do: "Responding to an A wisely is counter-intuitive." Well, my first intuition was to rip WS's heart our through his nose, coupled with LOTS of yelling--then my next intuition was a complete emotional meltdown coupled with days and days of crying, no eating, and no sleeping. Maybe it's just me, but it would seem that BS's respond like BS's...even when they intellectually know more or know better. In the end, their heart has still been ripped out of their chest while still beating.

My conclusion in all this??? It would appear to me that a person can KNOW an awful lot of wise stuff about M's and A's, and how to make R's work...but in the end, it takes TWO. I have confidence that when Cerri comes back onto this planet that she will still have the knowledge she has, that she will still be an expert, and that she will still be able to help countless hundreds--even thousands--with their M's...but even if she were the ABSOLUTE PERFECT partner, you know what? She can't do it alone. Plus, like I said--I know her enough to know that she's not perfect. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Am I condoning her H's ONS?? HECK NO!!! But I have been here long enough to know that he's not a monster and she's not the virgin Cerri either. No matter how you look at it though, it takes TWO people desiring an intimate R to pursue it daily...to continuous choose to make the effort...to want it bad enough to look at their own weaknesses every day and keep on addressing them every day. Cerri may know a ton about M's and A's, but she just can't have a happy, loving, satisfying M without a partner who's willing to do his personal work too.

Sooooo...don't dispair. Even if the earth was shaken under your boots, if you AND your partner have a desire to work on recovering, you can do it. And even if you were perfect, if your partner decided to not face his/her own issues and stopped working on recovering...even if you were Cerri, it couldn't be fixed.

I love ya, C. I know you're not perfect and so do you...but I also know what it's like to have a M that you can't fix 'cuz your S is afraid of their own issues. Hang in there! We really are ALL praying for you or sending you loving thoughts.


CJ

You made some excellent points here. I tried to make some of them in her thread but wasn't successful. I was instead told I was rude and un-educated for asking why a person in her position continued to allow this to happen to herself. I guess you can't be human and ask questions that challenge people's actions unless you are un-educated.

You are right though, At least for me (in my un-educated sense), I feel like "Why would I want coaching from a person who can't even keep their own marriage working?". The reason she can't keep it working is because it doesn't exist. Her husband abandoned it. Thats not her fault, but hanging on....is.

BTW - I think the question posed here is a very REAL question that's on alot of people's minds and therefore - should be addressed in an informative, respectful way, not by bashing those who questioned.

Wonder how long this thread will stay up?

<small>[ January 30, 2005, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: CaptialC ]</small>

Boy!!

CapitalC, I do not even know who you are, and I can't help but wonder if you read this post at all. It sure doesn't seem like you did. It seems as if you used THIS thread as an opportunity to complain about THAT thread!

I was in no way asking "who would want marriage coaching from a person who doesn't have a happy marriage?" I was trying to address out loud what I guessed some people might be asking themselves...if someone who is an educated professional specifically about the dynamics of marriage and affairs (both physically, chemically, and emotionally) has difficulty sustaining a lifelong, romantic partnership--then doesn't it seem doubtful that a "normal" person who is NOT a professional could pull off such a stunt??

I was trying to say, "Let's not pretend we aren't wonder this." We are a little shook up by this. It scares us when someone we look up to is not able to do what we are attempting to do. It's an emotional earthquake, so let's not pretend it isn't happening. Let's talk about it, and let's bring it to light.

I was also address a few other elephants in the living room: that Cerri is HUMAN and yet we hold her to a higher expectation; that if her H ever did have a ONS, that we weren't prepared for her to act like every other BS on the planet has acted; and that even if she were perfect (which we know that she's not), that she can't save even her own marriage ALONE.

I think that's the real message of hope in all this. Yes, we are shook up by the events. Yes, we feel a little insecure because one of our heros fell off the pedestal a little. BUT, now we also all have concrete affirmation that a marriage can not be saved even if one partner is very knowledgeable. BOTH parties in a marriage have to choose it, and desire it, and ACT out of love for their partner every day.

Sadly, you have not been here very long, CapitalC, and without knowing MB principals or SYMC principals, OR knowing any of the parties involved, you have chosen to come in here swinging. What do you suggest we do? The wisest course I can think of is to suggest that before you spout off to people, you invest the time necessary to know what you're talking about. I could swear, call names, and be a jerk here, but all I'm requesting that you do is do the time before you try to be the judge.


CJ

CJ, we CAN all have successful marriages because we're all different, we all take what we can and need from all the advice and experience on the board. I, for one, am here and recovered because of this very place.

CapitalC, I recall you saying you haven't been affected by infidelity. I also see you have posted to a good MB friend of mine without knowing all the facts of her story. She's vulnerable enough right now without uninformed opinion.

Jen

CJ, the whole point I was trying to make was that you are right - Cerri (or no one for that matter) can do this alone. Unfortunately, that is what she is trying to do.

I haven't read the entire site yet.....but from what I've seen there is a Plan A,B, C, D? At least I have seen A, B, & D. If these plans didn't work for her before - why are they going to work now?

I just find it ludacris that ANYONE could expect to save a marriage when they are the only one trying to save it.

It's kind of like what another member said on her other thread....just what would it take for her to walk away?

I'm all for the rebuilding of a marriage, but after he's cheated once....maybe even twice....what is there left to build on?

I apologize that my views are so different, but if I were to go to a counselor/coach with the problems she is facing and they told me to 'leave the door open'.....I'd immediately find another coach. It has happened to her way too many times and she is the only one who is going to be able to stop it, because he isn't.

~~CapitalC, I recall you saying you haven't been affected by infidelity. I also see you have posted to a good MB friend of mine without knowing all the facts of her story. She's vulnerable enough right now without uninformed opinion.~~

You are right, fortunatley, I haven't had to deal with some of the issues I see here, however, my own marriage isn't perfect. I posted about it and it got a few replies. I didn't need to know all the facts to see what was going on in her thread. I still stand by what I said. She needs to began a new life - her ex has. It's not healthy to keep 'knowing' his business when she is fragile like this.

I haven't dealt with a cheater, but I have had my husband throw me out. It was the WORST pain I ever knew - and it was my fault that I was thrown out. I knew it and regretted it everyday (I didn't cheat on him, it was other issues).

I had friends who were 'real' with me. Of course they assured me it would all turn out 'ok' in the end, but they were stern enough that it kept my eyes open. Yeah, it hurt to hear what they had to say, but it was the truth and I knew it. Having them put it in my face forced me to accept it and that was just what I needed. All our situations are different, but this is a discussion board and you will get alot of different opinions. Unless noted otherwise, none of us are professionals, so that is what we are all giving - opinions.

I've been unnerved since hearing, like everyone else. Surprise! You can be a loving, giving, wise, and educated partner, and your spouse can still do it.

GC

Capital~

There are people on this board who have dealt with Multiple A's and have recovered their marriage, some of those A's have even involved sex with Prostitutes. It is noones place to tell anyone when it's time to give up and walk away. Each of us know what we can and can't tolerate.

I don't believe you quite understand the extent of what will have to be done by Penny's dh in order for her to continue in the marriage. However, she is giving him that chance. Why put her down for it? She knows when too much is too much. When that time comes, believe me she will leave.

Hey I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this very good question.

We can make it because we are all very different. And no offense at all to Cerri but her husband's problems with infidelity sound somewhat serial, which at least is differnt than my own situation.

There is certainly no guarentee for any of us, but we are each different.

Tiggy

CJ,

Nice thread!


CapitalC,

I see Cerri's husband as a wounded little boy. He doesn't know how to love or to receive love or to love himself for some reason locked away in his heart and unknown to the rest of us. If Cerri has the strength to stand by him through this then who are we to judge? Some people have to fall very, very far before they realize that they need help. Maybe Cerri's H has reached that point.

Can you even imagine how blessed and loved he would feel if Cerri were able to stand by him as he healed, all the while knowing that he did not deserve for her to be there? There is a lot of power in that and I believe that Cerri knows it. I would imagine that she wants this healing for him even if she does NOT choose to stay married to him.

Okay, maybe I'm projecting here. I've lived this. I've given my H that "one more chance" and he blew it. But underneath that WS fog was the man I married...heck, the BOY I married truthfully (we married when we were 17 and 18 years old)! I knew that he didn't want to be this person that he'd become. I knew that there was something dreadfully wrong with him if he could repeatedly torture himself with these affairs.

Oh, yeah, I was shocked on D-day. I was devastated. I wanted to die when I found out, but I still had enough presence of mind to know that I did not want the pain of watching him ruin himself either...with or without me. So I asked him to stay. Heck, I told him he had to. I told him that he owed it to me, his wife of 26 years to stay with me until I was okay. We could decide down the road if we wanted to be married or not. D-day was not the time for that decision. It was a time for survival and the beginning of grieving.

Cerri has so much on her plate right now. She's done her best. She has every right to call it quits and I would never think less of her for doing so, but she also has every right to decide to stay with her H and see if this might be the time that he has hit a low enough low, to realize that he desperately needs help. He CAN heal if he WANTS to. "Wants to" is the key. If so, their marriage can eventually be heaven on earth. I know...I'm living it.

Stillwed

Good post...i was also wondering the same thing...

...but i know MYSELF that i will not and will NEVER take WH back if he did to me twice...NEVER...i can say this while i am still waiting for WH first and only one affair to end and it is not even close to ending...despite all the plan A, exposure and plan B...BUT i have grown, feeling happy again and moving on with life... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: zizzycool ]</small>

CJ cancer doctors get cancer, physiotherapists pull ligaments, psychologists have breakdowns.

The best of these professionals are granted empathy and a new insight by their experienes rather than weakened as a result.

If I may say, your OWN marriage situation has allowed you to be of invaluable help to many ( including me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) and I see no reason why Penny should be any different.

Penny has helped many with her skills and empathy. I have no doubts she will carry her experiences from this dreadful potential breakdown of her marriage to help other , more saveable client marriages.

A legacy of my own experiences is that the hurt part of my heart actually throbs with a little of her pain right now, as it does when I hear of any broken heart. See? Its even made this big Englishman more empathic.Great thread seej , as ever.

All blessings to Penny and her kids at this horrible time.

You are operating off a set of assumptions that include the ability of someone to see a person that close to them in an objective fashion. Cerri's husband is what many call broom stick distance from her...ie right there with her.

This makes it impossible for her to observe him in an intellectual manner.

In fact Cerri may have an even rougher time being a neutral observer in her own marriage PRECISELY because of her training.

Look at the number of otherwise sharp individuals who as parents fail to see a child's drug use or serious depression that leads to suicide. They are not bad parents, bad people they simply were too close to their own children to see what was happening right in front of their nose.

Plus you need to understand that in this case the issues reside within her husband more than within the marriage.

On top of all these comments---who says that Cerri's marriage is "unsuccessful" or doomed to end?

This is someone who many of us know, and therefore the news his particularly hard. Throw her skills as a marriage coach into the mix, and you can see how the "How..." questions get thrown around.

But Cerri is in crisis mode, just like thousands of others who have shown up here at one time or the other. And it's very possible that she gets through this with a better marriage in the end.

We're only on day two here...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just find it ludacris that ANYONE could expect to save a marriage when they are the only one trying to save it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry.

The new expert is in town. CapitalC!

Brand new, totally uniformed about the principles, causes, or recovery methods, but able to spout opinion in a single bound!

CapitalC, I am happy for you that you have not felt the personal pain of infidelity, because there is little pain that matches it in magnitude. But you are also woefully misinformed, or at least underinformed, about infidelity and the various valid recovery efforts.

It is my hope that you will rein in your zealous desire to hear your opinion stated and take the time to really read the information about recovery from affairs before speaking your opinion. Even informed opinions are disagreed with from time to time, but uniformed opinions are dangerous and usually spring from a selfish desire to foist one's own "opinions" on others. Here, you are dealing with "experts" in the tragedy of infidelity and in the various methods of recovery and dealing with emotional tsumani after effects, so we are not as likely to be "tolerant" of uniformed opinion. It's often hard enough when 2 "informed" posters disagree, but it's positively exasperating when a "newbie" thinks they have all the answers....like "it's hopeless babe...why are you even trying?!?"

Yes, CapitalC, people all over the place are saving their marriages, so in response to your statement; "I just find it ludacris that ANYONE could expect to save a marriage when they are the only one trying to save it
" let me just say that "ludacris" is an obscene rapper. Further, no one "EXPECTS" to save their marriage following infidelity, but they CAN and DO make the choice to TRY and save it all the time, and many are successful. Just ask some of the Former Wayward Spouses on the system if you'd like to hear from some who "didn't want their marriage to recover" while they were having their affairs.

Some Betrayed Spouses, like you apparantly, would simply "walk away." But many others accept the pain and try to find out what caused the breakdown and what might be done that would result in a saved marriage. They CHOOSE that path because THEY love their spouse despite the pain and suffering brought on by the unfaithful spouse.

Yes, there are many "methods" that can be, and are, employed by the Betrayed Spouse, to get an affair to end and/or to begin recovery of a better and more loving marriage IN SPITE OF the fact that most Wayward Spouses are not interested in recovering the marriage AT THAT POINT IN TIME.

So what I'm asking you do to is to pull in your claws and perhaps just observe for a while.

Capital,

When spouses fail to meet their commitment to a marriage...there are many different levels that vows can be broken. Sexual fidelity is only one them. In your own marriage for instance, your husband is basically a good man....but is addicted to drugs, can't hold a job etc. But because there is no infidelity he is somehow more forgivable? There are many here that might say..."wow, why stay with this loser?" but they aren't married to him...they don't love him....do they? My husband is a good provider, a good father, a wonderful lover and friend....but he also had an ONS. Like you, and probably like cerri....I see my husband as more than just the mistakes he makes. You live with a pothead. I live with an adulterer. We both love our husbands. Is it really so different?

Cerri is a human being. Her husband made a bad decision, should this reflect negatively on Cerri? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Marriage Builders has always been about changing yourself, because YOU are the only one YOU can control. We can't expect Cerri to have some super-human control over her husband, I doubt she would even want to.

Does the fact that she's going through this make her a bad coach?! Hell no it doesn't. If anything, she can draw on her own experiences to help people. What could be worse than listening to advice from someone who has NEVER been there?!
Someone who tells you what they'd do, when in reality they have NO CLUE what they'd do, they've never been faced with it.

I find Cerri to be an incredibly strong person. She's coach, and she put her pain on this board for all to see. She didn't try to hide it....sweep it under the rug to keep her reputation in tact. She told us all what was going on. She could've just as easily kept her pain to herself, and we would have been none the wiser.

I know that everyone has been shaken up by this, I don't think you should be disheartened about your situation based on what's going on with Cerri, or say "She's an expert, if she can't keep it together, how can I?" Cerri IS keeping it together. She has her boundaries in place and IS sticking to her guns. She believes in marriage, and therefore she has not closed the door on her own marriage. Does that make her bad, or weak? NO..........that makes her human, that makes her EXCEPTIONAL.

The thing that people don't understand is how much easier it would be to just gather up your wounded pride and walk away from a cheating spouse. This trying to work it out in spite of your pain is MUCH harder, and a noble thing to do.

Yes, adultery is a slap in the face, it's an insult to the BS, but.........we took our vows...for better or for worse, in sickness and in health. I would say maybe this is the "sickness....this is the worse" those vows speak of, and I for one am not giving up the fight for my family. It's the only thing that matters to me.

JMHO,

-Caren

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: CarenMc ]</small>

I find it ludicrous that someone like CapitolC would have the gall to come to a site and spout out so much advice on a topic she has neither dealt with nor has educated herself on! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

CapitolC...FYI, almost everyone n this site said to their spouse BEFORE Dday "if you ever cheat on me, you are out the door, no looking back" including myself!

CapitolC, you really need to first educate youself on infidelity before giving advice on it...Then educate yourself on PlanA and Plan B...there is no Plan D...that stands for DIVORCE! DUH! while you are at it, go to SYMC and educate yourself on PP...do you know what that stands for? Do you even know what Plan A and Plan B are?

Stop spouting out advice on something you ahve no clue about...That would be like someone coming up to a teacher and asking them about medical advice! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Reluctantly, I enter the fray...I've never worked with Cerri but I feel for her problems. Whether you're a professional counselor or not, it takes 2 to make a marriage. It takes 2 to have an A.

Sometimes, and everybody can hammer me as much as they like, it seems like divorce can be the "easy" way out. Definitely not easy but it terminates the marriage. Making the decision to work on a marriage after being cheated on, lied to and generally drug through the mud takes a brave, stubborn person. Hanging in there, trying to improve one's self, sorting through the issues of the marriage, it takes a big person to do that.

For myself, not even 3 months past D-day, I'm told all the time by people to end my pain, stop my anger and get divorced. Yes, I could legally end the marriage but all the problems would still be there. With kids and our past, WH and I would still be connected but with no way to work through things. If Cerri wants to work on her M, I support her.

I am not going to talk about what has been said here, b/c I think EVERYONE, has made some valid points, but I have to say as someone who is still new to this board that I am so saddened by the reponses to CapitalC. Yes, unless you are affected by infidelity you CANNOT know the emotions you go through, or what you would do, but hey, I thought this was a board of sharing and understanding, Just b/c a person has a different view from your own doesn't mean that he/she is wrong, and doesn't give you the right to bash them. Like I said, it saddens me that the place I have turned to in my time of great need has now betrayed me, too, with the hate that I am feeling being posted on this thread.