I agree Pep.....

I was one of those, if he cheats I am out of here. But it took both of us to break the foundation of our marriage. Unfortuantely he took the easy way out and turned to someone else. But to think of walking way, and giving up on what I knew we could bring back to the marriage, there is no way.

We have a better marriage now then before. Can I guarantee that our marriage if affair proof, nope can't do that. Can any marriage be affair proof, nope I'm afraid not.

I don't agree with everything Dr. Phil says...but I do believe in this. Trust is more about me...than it is about him. I trust myself to be strong enough to deal with whatever comes my way....as well as any of his failings. That doesn't mean I'll be endlessly forgiving...but I'm at peace with my choices so far.

I know what I'm asking are hard questions and they challenge the MB principals, and I apologize if I have offended anyone BUT ... I feel strongly these questions need to be asked.

I also know that upon D-day most people who pre-affair said they'd kick their spouse to the curb if they cheated, typically want badly to recover.

My H and I recovered our marriage the first time for 7 years before his second affair. We were happy and he was a completely different person post affair and into recovery, and then he did it again.

I know there are no guarantees, that's a given. But I have to say if I was to experience cheating from anyone in my future life, knowing what I know now even with the MB principals, I WOULD KICK THEM TO THE CURB - without hestitation.

Jo

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Hi Resilient Jo,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Like I wrote above, even Willard Harley would not give his wife a second chance and has said he would divorce her pronto if she cheated. What does he know that we don't??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know what he knows, but what he doesn't know is his own capacity to stay, work things out, forgive... like many of us didn't know our own capacity to do those before we were faced with the need to exercise it. And I hope he doesn't ever learn his capacity!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Didn't most of us BS's say that before we faced our S's A's?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Jenny

Jo,

I hear you. And I can tell you that my feelings after taking this much time to learn these concepts, protect my marriage etc....are not the same as before I knew nothing. If the question is...would I accept him back if he did again....now that I've invested this much energy into knowing and applying all that I can to make sure it doesn't happen...all these MB concepts? Well then...the answer is NO. I would not. And that ain't no lip service chere.

Thanks Star*Fishie ...

I think because all I have learned here and all that I experienced I simply would not have the tolerence or forgiving capacity any longer for someone that would cheat on me.

Jo

Jo,

You know I have already really decided nope not again. I had a first husband who I am pretty certain was a serial cheater. Only know about the last OW for sure. The others were always suspicions.

Then this husband cheats and I prepare to divorce immediately. He comes back, wants to work it out. And here we are a year later.

I can honestly and wholeheartedly say that if this happens again, no matter what he did I would divorce him. I can't go through it all again.

But we each have different limits, different life experiences and different relationship dynamics that bring each of us to our own decision.

And the funny thing is after saying all that, I can't really say for certain what my future behavior would be. I am pretty certain but still I am only speculating.

I hope Penny is well.

Tiggy

Well for what my 2 cents is worth, I think that we really don't know our reaction until we have really BTDT.

At least in my exp, that is true for me. I am a planner. Of many things. H & I discussed this matter early in our M and even courtship. 1 incident and out the other would go. NO question of return. Yet when it really happened, I was devastated. Then I was angry that I was devastated.

I stay that way until my mind and heart came in sync. When it did, a lot cleared. Moving forward with or without the WS was easier. You now what? Throwing him out each time became easier also. NOw that scared the WS. It empowered me.

So now with the scars and all, plan B rests in my back pocket. Sometimes I look pretty cute with it sticking out of my back pocket in tight jeans. LOL!!! Just kidding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Nothing looks cute from that angle anymore. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The point is that if it happens again. I know what I will do but I will not divulge it publically since I don't want to eat crow. I like poultry but not that kind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So do I personally blame Cerri but being sooo upset? Nope. d/d's are always hard. I can say that I empathize with her. Truly do and willing to lend support as needed.

Cerri, if you are reading this you know how I feel. I speak for myself and others will speak for themselves. Truly understand, ya hear?!?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Though we think you are invincable we know you are human. May your healing time start soon and if you ever want more 'suggestions on reverse babbling'...... just ask. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Let's not pretend we aren't wonder this." We are a little shook up by this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually call me crazy..but it didn't shake me at all.

Circumstances are completely different.

I don't know enough about the saga, so I won't comment much because I don't want someone slamming me for an opinion.

HOWEVER.... I think it has to do with that whole repeat offender thing.

I think there's a dynamic there that only certain people can withstand.

Whether that makes us stronger or smarter isn't even the question..it's all personal choice.

I know there are 2 reasons that I wouldn't have wanted to recover my M, number 1 is repeat offender. No question in my mind that I won't even shed a tear if this happens again. I've gotten too thick a skin after this ordeal. Nothing could hurt like that again, and I could easily walk away...no regrets. Number 2... OC...personally I couldn't handle it..many can, and many do..again..personal decision.

The point I'm trying to make is maybe people did get shaken.. and maybe new posters are more blunt, more direct, aren't afraid to put their questions and opinions out there. You familiarize yourself with the poster..and you steer AWAY from the accident. No need to rubberneck. I...have a person or two that annoy me to NO end. I steer clear of the mess.

That's the best advice I can give...now I'm moving down the road because the drama is just too intense.

Cerri..you know you have my deepest heartfelt compassion. I don't need to go into great detail or offer some wise advice...just my support.

Hang in there PT.

BIJ,

Glad to hear you say that it didn't shake you cuz it didn't shake me either. Just too chicken to actually say it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I felt horrible for Penny but didn't translate into my own marriage. Her husband sounds very different from my hubby. And even if we were very similar, our marriage with it's problems is mine and her marriage is hers. HOpe that makes sense. I can understand how some would feel shaken though.

Tiggy

Well Folks,

I can't say I was surprised, but I am greatly saddened. I don't know much but I do know </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no pancake so flat that it doesn't have two sides. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am reminded of that saying because as K pointed out this is not very far out in things and I am SURE Cerri has the capacity to see all sides of things and thus make the best decision she can.

I agree it is very hard to say what anyone would do with these events, but I do think the MB approach would be to stop, analyze, and try to make the best possible decision while giving things time to settle down and giving oneself time to really think about the WHOLE picture.

Cerri, I do hope things work out for you.

God Bless (Yes, I know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ),

JL

I agree with Tig & BINJ, there are too many variables in all human relationships for one to equate to the other... I feel horrible for Penny, and it is clear she is in alot of pain right now, but I don't stop believing in MB or the hope of repair or reconciliation in my own M just because someone else didn't make it.

Geez, half of all marriages today will fail, but people are still signing up to do it everday... Why? Because we all have hope, faith and believe we can make it work. If there is a chance that we can be a success story, and that is what I want...then I should at least give it that chance.

Plus, there are so many differences across the board...different levels of faith, tolerance, resiliency and more. I have to believe, I must have faith and hope... some days it is all I have to keep me going.

I have been praying for Penny too. I vividly remember my D-days ... both were the worse experiences of my entire life.

I hope she is doing okay.

Jo

BIJ,

Im with you on this one too!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It didn't "rock my world" that this happened..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> My world and M are mine, and although I can be saddened by any BS going thru this AGAIN I believe like you do that nobody is guaranteed to be free from a S having an A ....once or twice or thrice! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> It is all in the hands of the WS....not any question about it in my mind!

The Repeat Offender is a horrid thought.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> and IF my H were to ever do it again, I am with YOU my dear!!! and also speculating because one thing I have learned thru this ordeal is that you should NEVER say "NEVER"........IF you do???? YOU may find yourself FACEING the situation yourself one day.....strange how that happens!

I wish Cerri healing. Healing of her heart. If her H won't protect it????? I think the least that MBers can do is protect what she says here..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> JMHO

Blessings and PRAYERs Cerri!
Atruheart

If my wife had an affair I know that I would probably want to reconcile. I think that most here try that route. If she did it again, after witnessing the pain and suffering that the first one caused, I would seriously question her compassion. Would I just quit the marriage? I don’t know. I do think that doing it a second or third time after witnessing the devastation that it causes is callous at best. I would begin to question if this person truly has my best interests in mind. I know that I wouldn’t feel safe; perhaps for a very long time after a second betrayal.

The problem with the “I’d dump the jerk the second time” response is, what then? O.K. you divorce. If you have kids, you destroy their childhood (I speak as a child of divorce and this is how it affected me . . . I know some people think that it really isn’t that bad for the kids . . . I think it does affect kids differently). Homes are sold, property divided, possibly a bitter struggle for custody, and the “family” is economically poorer. After a time, each will probably begin to date. Perhaps marry again to someone new. What are the chances that this new spouse will cheat? Is the chance greater that the reoccurrence of cheating from the original spouse? I know that second marriages fail at a greater rate than first marriages: the statistic for third marriages is even more depressing. The kids now have two step-parents forced into their lives, possible step-kids, step-grandparents . . . what a mess.

I don’t think there are simple black and white answers here. No one is entirely good, no one is entirely evil. Some very good people make some very poor decisions. I think that the only way to ensure that you don’t get stung by infidelity is to not ever become intimately involved with another person. You will then be protected. It doesn’t sound like fun to me though. I’ll take my chances with a real live human being; knowing full well that she may betray me. Loving someone makes you vulnerable . . . letting someone have that much access to you heart-stings is dangerous; they could easily crush you. When they have this power to damage, but choose instead to hold the gift and protect it . . . life doesn’t get much better than that.

CN

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The problem with the “I’d dump the jerk the second time” response is, what then? O.K. you divorce. If you have kids, you destroy their childhood (I speak as a child of divorce and this is how it affected me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok...let me show you the flip side of that coin.

I'm a child of infidelity. My dad was a serial cheater..and I grew up watching my mom suffer from this...over and over again...because in her time... you sucked it up because you didn't want your kids raised in a broken home.

I raised my children as a single parent. Their father was abusive. They have morals, values, self respect, were not raised around domestic violence, drug abuse, serial cheating... should I have stayed married so they didn't come from a broken home ?

Unfortunately, my children had to deal with infidelity when my H stepped outside the boundaries of our M last year. Fortunately...my children are older, and it was difficult. But I also know..that if I took another jab.... and didn't walk away... my children would have less respect for me. ASK me how I know that.

Betrayed,

I knew someone would respond the way you did. The quote of my words that you used was only partial . . . this is what I said:

<strong>The problem with the “I’d dump the jerk the second time” response is, what then? O.K. you divorce. If you have kids, you destroy their childhood (I speak as a child of divorce and this is how it affected me . . . I know some people think that it really isn’t that bad for the kids . . . I think it does affect kids differently)</strong>

Divorce affects kids differently. To some it was a tragic, life altering event. It was to me. It colored the way I viewed relationships. . . I knew that people are only temporarily involved in my life. It taught me to protect my feelings and to not get attached to people. This was pretty heady stuff for an elementary age kid to ponder. Of course I also blamed myself for my parent's divorce. What was so wrong with me that would make my Dad leave? It didn't matter what my parents said . . . that is how I felt.

I don't think that you can argue with how my parents divorce affected me, at least not rationally. In some situations, like yours, maybe divorce was the better of two bad situations. I really don't know, but please don't act like it is no big deal . . . because it is to SOME kids.

<small>[ February 01, 2005, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Susan:
<strong> I shudder at the thought of what I would be missing if my H. and I had not given each other a second chance. We had 2 A's each and have now been in recovery going on 5 years. We have a wonderful relationship. You could ask anyone that knows us or had been around us. We are not the same people we once were.

I do wonder about CJ's motivation behind this post. What purpose does it serve?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Susan, et al who have wondered about this...

Just so you know, I have already been where Cerri is. My exH was (still is) a sexaholic and as a symptom had multiple affairs. My exH was/still is abusive. I tried for three years to save the marriage while I was simultaneously growing as a woman and practicing concepts as I learned them. Eventually, for me personally, there came a day when he refused to seek treatment or recovery, and chose instead to continue in his addictive behaviors. That didn't work for me, and we ended up divorced--and we've been divorced now for almost two years.

Thus, my purpose in starting this thread was not to speak about my own personal feelings or to somehow indicate that I felt like if Cerri couldn't save her marriage, then how could I. In fact, on a purely personal level, I would be living testimony to Cerri that if her H chooses to refuse treatment and recovery, that she can still move forward with her life and have a serene, productive, happy life!!

No, I started this thread because there are LOTS of people here who Cerri either had helped in the past or was helping currently, who I guessed were thinking something like this but were a little afraid to say it out loud. In my opinion, it's natural to wonder this and to be a little rattled when someone we "look up to" has a crisis. Thus, I wanted to remind people that Cerri is human too, and that she wasn't perfect but even if she was she couldn't do it alone. On the occasion, a marriage does end because one spouse DOES learn sound relationship concepts and the other spouse DOES NOT...or they know the concepts but refuse to do them.

I also started this thread to sort of remind Cerri that she has often told BS's that responding to an A is counter-intuitive...that your intuition is to cry, scream, wail, gnash teeth, and just reel in pain. I've seen it time and again that a BS will respond in a way that is COMPLETELY contrary to their nature because the pain is just so great...and that's pretty much what happened here. Yeah, Cerri is a pretty feisty fireball of a woman and opinionated, but she's a lady and a stickler for respectful "etiquette" if nothing else, and this time, as happens to so many BS's, her response was just completely contrary to her true nature.


FNCJ