In my unscientific opinion, there are two basic types of affairs. One is addressed by MB principles but the other is not:

1) A good marriage that begins to go downhill -- the partners really aren't meeting each other's ENs and eventually one (or both) of them turn to someone else to get their ENs filled. MB can be a lot of help here.

2) A good marriage where it seems like the partners *are* getting their ENs filled -- but one of them (usually it's just one) turns out to be a confirmed cake-eater with OPs on the side just for the fun of it. MB seems to insist that this doesn't really happen and that the BS must have been failing *somewhere.*

It has been very difficult for me to get any help here because my WH falls squarely into the second category. I have read other accounts on this board where I'd say the BS was in exactly the same situation, and no amount of EN-filling is going to help.

So -- which situation did you find yourself in? The first one or the second one?

And why does MB seem to ignore the second type?
Mulan

Mulan,

I've always felt that my marriage fell into the second category....but I also think I got plenty of help here. Even though I was a good and faithful wife and my had "entitlement" issues that could never be resolved by need filling....I learned things about communicating that was invaluable. I learned about negotiating and using my taker....instead of giving and resenting. I learned about the POJA and encouraged my husband's participation in these concepts. I do really try to help folks who fall into this second category. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I believe my marriage would fall into the first catagory. I KNOW that there were EN's going unmet in my relationship, on both sides. I have corrected that problem and will try my best to NEVER take my H or anyone else for granted again.

-Caren

Hi Mulan,

I remember this topic coming up before but it didn't go the distance,so to speak.I think there are many of us here that don't subscribe to the idea that only unmet EN's are to blame for an A.I know in my case my WH probably falls under #2.If I am to believe the ENQ my WH and I took and that he was being honest,which I think he was,I did really well meeting his needs,not perfect but really well.Only one area,Affection,was rated lower.

In my mind,this was something I could have easily changed to make him happy in this category had he brought it to my attention.What he put down as being helpful in this area was: more pinches on the butt ,more spontaneous hugs(can't give those if he's not around),and more spontaneous kisses.

Anyway,we just had another discussion last night and he is still so confused about why WE let our marriage die and why WE didn't bring our unhappiness to the table.I had to remind him about this being about HIM and that he needs to look deep within to find the answers he is looking for,I can't do it for him.He needs to figure out why he needs the emotional attachements to other women,why he wasn't engaged in the marriage enough,what he wants,etc,etc.He is emotionally immature and he at least admitted that last night.Now he is talking about reconciling again in a round about way.Ugh.

Anyway,it's clear to me that HE is the problem in this marriage.I have been doing everything I can to make my self better,ever since day one.I have actually always been like that but while I grow,he lapses into selfishness and confusion.I don't think he knows what he wants.And no amount of EN filling is going to counteract his other issues.

I have always said that adultery is a very complex issue and I don't believe there is one causative factor,not that Dr.Harley says this.But I wholeheartedly agree that unmet needs is only one possible contributing factor and the difficulty is trying to understand what the other reasons are and do that with an unremorseful,self absorbed WS.Not easy by any means.

O

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Another basic type is based on fear of intimacy and/or major avoidance issues.

Some type of relationship trauma occurs that stops the intimate development of the marriage. Leaves huge gaps that are vulnerable to some kind of A.

Basically that is where my M fits best as far as I can tell.

We experienced a quick start in our M. I think things progressed so fast that we never got the chance to develop a strong enough emotional bond. And even though we made decisions together (at least on the surface) I feel like I am blamed for many of the choices that makes life difficult for one or more people in our family.

Add the fact that we never fought. When an issue would come up the converstaion would last about 30 seconds and would wind up with one or both of us shutting off....

Very good topic, Mulan. My pre-A M was definately in category 1. However, with recent developments here at the site, my H and I have been talking a lot about EN's and boundaries and such. And last night we both agreed that for some people, it doesn't seem to BE about EN's or boundaries. It just seems to be that they want to do what they want to do, no matter how it affects those around them.

Perhaps those are the people who fall into category 2? IMVHO, I would rather be in category 1 than 2, if I have to be here at all.

That being said, MB has helped me immensely with understanding the A and the how's and why's, and also how to protect my M now and in the future. And do so confidently. I am a different person than I was when I came here ~ in 5 days it will be 1 year ago.

Spidey

***It just seems to be that they want to do what they want to do, no matter how it affects those around them.***

Exactly. And MB has been of some help to me with this -- Orchid's Reverse Babble is priceless and I've gotten pretty good at it -- though H still refuses to participate in POJA unless it's something he doesn't much care about anyway, which to me is not POJA. But I digress.

I don't know what MB can do with this sort of situation. Maybe that's the obvious answer -- that you can't negotiate with somebody who only wants to do what they want to do, and honestly believes it's YOUR job to fit into THEIR life and YOUR problem if you can't.

I would still like to find some sort of standard advice for this situation, in the way that "fill their ENs and strengthen your boundaries" is the standard advice for affair type #1. Maybe there isn't any standard advice for this except "Run for the hills!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But I'm listening.
Mulan

In my case our M was much closer to your #2... but I will that without MBers and it's principles I could not have saved my M.

This board...and the just found out board....are mostly people who ...

just found out...and are now in the thick of it...

no matter the type of affair...as you noted above...

even no matter the reasons..

it is a choice....
it always has been ...
always will be...

the outcome is not based on what the behaviors were....but what the choice is this day...
from this moment forward...

either a person CHOOSES to no longer engage in adutlerous affairs.
or CHOOSES to continue....

there is nothing a BS can do about the choice...
they can only choose what they will do based on that...

It has been very difficult for me to get any help here because my WH falls squarely into the second category.

the only help that is available to any of us ...is what are YOU going to do...

what are your boundaries
what is tolerable
what is intolerable...

marriage builders addresses the actions/reactions only of the one that comes here and posts...

it ignores no one..
it's advice remains consistant to all...no matter the situation...

can't change any one but yourself.
and the other spouse always maintains the ability to choose differently...

remember also that this board is focuses mostly on the plan a aspect of an active affair..and plan b...

it is a road-map so to speak to anchor those faced with usually recent discovery and dealing with someone in some type of crisis mode..

be it denial
be it the blame game
be it the I'm so messed up nothing can be fixed..
be it the I don't love you anymore game..
be it I have found my soul mate game..

and all the others..
we have heard them all..

this board can only deal rationally with the one here seeking help...

recovery board and the whole package of this site of true marriage building is a totally different ball-game...

and tips and advice on this board have little to do with two people in true recovery...that's left to the experts and serious counsel...

so that the WS no matter what category they were in their affair days...are now today choosing differently...and hopefully recovery...

look what star answered....
she learned all about herself..

I learned things about communicating that was invaluable. I learned about negotiating and using my taker....instead of giving and resenting. I learned about the POJA and encouraged my husband's participation in these concepts. I do really try to help folks who fall into this second category.

and thank God she has a spouse that tuned in and chose to learn as well....

but if he hadn't...star would still be a success..for she most likely would not be stuck in a marriage of one...
or she may have chosen that...but changed her expectations from her spouse in to a place she could live with...

it's all about the one posting here..
and how to help them deal with the reality they have...no matter what it is...

ARK

ark, you are correct. I think I was confusing what Mulan was saying, with how the WS/FWS chooses to react after the A is ended.

The saddest thing in the world to me, is a BS who still loves their spouse, is ready to do the hard work of recovery, and ends up having to choose between their boundaries, and said spouse.

Because if your boundaries are laid out very clearly, and they are repeatedly trod upon, a decision must be made. Because even if I could not stay M'd to my FWH if he refused to respect my boundaries, I would still love him. And I would still have to say good-bye to him. Because the alternative, to live in pain and hurt all the time, would be much worse.

I think that is what I was thinking of with my earlier post. And MB does make it possible for a BS to get to the point that that decision can be made. Because before I came her, before my H left me, I thought I would DIE without him. I would have continued to think that I had to endure whatever his next rash decision was, because of my love for him. Now I know that the person I must respect and love the most in this world is ME. And MB gave me the clarity to know the difference. The confidence to know the difference.

Spidey

Mulan

I've argued for ages that the EN model does not fit every case- it certainly didn't fit mine. The conclusion I finally arived at was that there's a condition missing from the basic statement about ENs. It SHOULD read 'Failure to meet ENs weakens marriages, IF AND ONLY IF ALL OF THOSE ENs CAN BE MET FROM WITHIN A NORMAL MARRIAGE.'

As I see it, there are certain needs which are simply unmeetable. Some needs are unconscious, unexpressed, and result from wounds that were received long before the marriage existed. They're 'emotional needs' in the sense that the individual feels a huge pressure to have them satisfied. But often they're needs which are inimical to a marriage - the marriage actually forms a barrier to getting them filled. That's where the problems arise.

Examples abound... A man who subconsciously hates the 'entrapment' of parenthood may have a huge unconscious need to act like a single man. A woman who spent her childhood as Daddy's Girl may feel the need for constant paternal-type support, and feel outraged by the demands of motherhood. Someone who depends heavily on a sense of themselves as a sexually enticing being may find themselves without an identity within the confines of a monogamous relationship. And so on.

No amount of 'normal' EN-meeting could ever satisfy those abnormal needs. The individual MUST resolve their own issues, such that they become able to have their primary needs met from within a marriage, to be able to exist within the marriage they've got.

Having said that, I think that the EN approach makes a reasonable start to assessing the problem - as long as there is a good mediator to assist. If a need is identified which is clearly not within the other spouse's capacity to fill, then that is a personal issue for the individual to deal with. If the BS seems to have been filling all ENs pretty well, but WS still strayed, then it's clearly an issue for the WS.

TogetherAlone

***The saddest thing in the world to me, is a BS who still loves their spouse, is ready to do the hard work of recovery, and ends up having to choose between their boundaries, and said spouse.***

Yep -- that's where I am. Not a fun place to be.

***Because if your boundaries are laid out very clearly, and they are repeatedly trod upon, a decision must be made. Because even if I could not stay M'd to my FWH if he refused to respect my boundaries, I would still love him. And I would still have to say good-bye to him. Because the alternative, to live in pain and hurt all the time, would be much worse.***

Exactly.

***I think that is what I was thinking of with my earlier post. And MB does make it possible for a BS to get to the point that that decision can be made.***

Yes, it does. It has been helpful to me in this regard.

TA - thank you so much for your response. I think all I was looking for was the acknowledgment that some ENs cannot be met in a normal marriage -- like the need for lots of attention and admiration from attractive members of the opposite sex. I think it would help many posters here for someone to point this out to them and let them know that no one person could ever fill this "need," and that they WILL have to make the decision between what they can live with and what they can't -- at least, for as long as the WS insists that this is a legitimate EN and they are entitled to it as long as they have a good enough excuse (as in, "we work together" or "he/she is just a friend.") <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I would love to see this as part of the standard advice here.

Thanks to all of you. Would love to see some other responses here, too.
Mulan

Why are you choosing to post this on the MB site? I'm just wondering.

MB principles do fit with a lot of other scientific principles about the causes for As, though.

Have you heard of JOHN GOTTMAN who has the most scientifically sound research about relationships? Some of his books are THE SEVEN PRINCIPLES FOR MAKING MARRIAGES WORK and RELATIONSHIP CURE.

I just don't see the point of this.

Can you give examples of folks that espouse to your theory that have recovered their marriages?

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Mimi,

You wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can you give examples of folks that espouse to your theory that have recovered their marriages?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My marriage has recovered and we fit the 2nd description quite well. As a matter of fact, right before my H's last affair, at Thanksgiving he said that he had never been happier in his life regarding our marriage. Then by Christmas he was in the arms of another woman who came on to him a week before.

Marriage Builders principles appear to based on Dr. Harley's observations of happy couples...couples who had endured the test of time. What were they doing that other couples were not? How were they making it work, when therapy and counseling were failing miserably for other couples? He has come up with a wonderful plan for making a happy marriage and keeping the romantic, in love feelings alive and well.

However, that doesn't eliminate the fact that there are men and women with deep childhood wounds. They don't know how to live "normal" lives. They have these deep holes in their hearts that don't allow them to give or even worse, RECEIVE love from their partners. Until they heal those wounds, they will continue to repeat the behavior that they use to self-medicate the wounds.

They need a good therapist. They need more than MB principles. The principles are wonderful and helpful to everyone, but they aren't always enough. They are the beginning of healing, but not always the end.

Stillwed

There is a third flavor.

3) The marriage which never really gets off the ground because one spouse didn't let go of somebody they didn't marry - and dragged him along for years after. That's my case. W was talking to OM on the phone a month after we married - and a month before we married - and now, 6 years later, she still thinks of him as "hers" and assumes that whenever she finishes with me, he will be available for her. He moved here (thousands of miles) to be near her.

-AD

My x and I, until D day was revealed, had what I considered a decent marriage. We talked, took many trips together, had a lovely son, and I was helping him grow his business. Things got really ugly after D day when I discovered his secret life...

I really don't buy the EN's approach either. No matter how much you read, how much you work on a marriage, time can change a relationship. Kinda like the seven year itch myth. When the WS thinks they are entitled to sleep around, it is pure and simple cake eating and the SUBMISSION and DECISION to become a cake eater.

At that point, it's not about us. It is about them. All about them. And yes, if you were married for years and you worked at home, raised the kids, and devoted yourself to your family you deserve happiness in your life. But you don't deserve to have an affair. Even if you worked fifty hours a week, brought home the bacon to your family, toiled at work tirelessly without vacations you deserve happiness in your life. But you don't deserve the right to have an affair.

I see affairs as about the WS only and their PERCEPTIONS AS TO WHY THEY MADE THE CONSCIOUS DECISION TO HAVE THE AFFAIR. We may be able to change our dynamics in the relationship. We learn here effectively how to try to change things...but from only ONE SIDE. Our side. The WS has to decide what to do.

I see it as a line is crossed. The WS decides at some point to walk over that line and will use foggy babble to blame the BS...Thanks Orchid...she's right on with the reverse babble theory! They'll say anything. Why? They are doing something wrong. It feels good. They are wrestling with their wrong vs. right and they're mucho loco. Quite confused.

My sitch: My x became a cakeater. He envisioned himself as James Bond. He made alot of money. He felt ENTITLED to his affairs. That is key. He felt ENTITLEMENT. And incidentally, I was the stay at home, cute little stepford wife who also had been his business partner, and even was working on having another child with this man when he secretly decided to eat cake all by himself.

I don't see it as either #1 or #2. I see it as an issue the WS has. When exactly and why did they decide to walk over the line if fidelity and decide that they were ENTITLED TO HAVE THE AFFAIR.????

My x and I, until D day was revealed, had what I considered a decent marriage. We talked, took many trips together, had a lovely son, and I was helping him grow his business. Things got really ugly after D day when I discovered his secret life...

I really don't buy the EN's approach either. No matter how much you read, how much you work on a marriage, time can change a relationship. Kinda like the seven year itch myth. When the WS thinks they are entitled to sleep around, it is pure and simple cake eating and the SUBMISSION and DECISION to become a cake eater.

At that point, it's not about us. It is about them. All about them. And yes, if you were married for years and you worked at home, raised the kids, and devoted yourself to your family you deserve happiness in your life. But you don't deserve to have an affair. Even if you worked fifty hours a week, brought home the bacon to your family, toiled at work tirelessly without vacations you deserve happiness in your life. But you don't deserve the right to have an affair.

I see affairs as about the WS only and their PERCEPTIONS AS TO WHY THEY MADE THE CONSCIOUS DECISION TO HAVE THE AFFAIR. We may be able to change our dynamics in the relationship. We learn here effectively how to try to change things...but from only ONE SIDE. Our side. The WS has to decide what to do.

I see it as a line is crossed. The WS decides at some point to walk over that line and will use foggy babble to blame the BS...Thanks Orchid...she's right on with the reverse babble theory! They'll say anything. Why? They are doing something wrong. It feels good. They are wrestling with their wrong vs. right and they're mucho loco. Quite confused.

My sitch: My x became a cakeater. He envisioned himself as James Bond. He made alot of money. He felt ENTITLED to his affairs. That is key. He felt ENTITLEMENT. And incidentally, I was the stay at home, cute little stepford wife who also had been his business partner, and even was working on having another child with this man when he secretly decided to eat cake all by himself.

I don't see it as either #1 or #2. I see it as an issue the WS has. When exactly and why did they decide to walk over the line if fidelity and decide that they were ENTITLED TO HAVE THE AFFAIR.????

My x and I, until D day was revealed, had what I considered a decent marriage. We talked, took many trips together, had a lovely son, and I was helping him grow his business. Things got really ugly after D day when I discovered his secret life...

I really don't buy the EN's approach either. No matter how much you read, how much you work on a marriage, time can change a relationship. Kinda like the seven year itch myth. When the WS thinks they are entitled to sleep around, it is pure and simple cake eating and the SUBMISSION and DECISION to become a cake eater.

At that point, it's not about us. It is about them. All about them. And yes, if you were married for years and you worked at home, raised the kids, and devoted yourself to your family you deserve happiness in your life. But you don't deserve to have an affair. Even if you worked fifty hours a week, brought home the bacon to your family, toiled at work tirelessly without vacations you deserve happiness in your life. But you don't deserve the right to have an affair.

I see affairs as about the WS only and their PERCEPTIONS AS TO WHY THEY MADE THE CONSCIOUS DECISION TO HAVE THE AFFAIR. We may be able to change our dynamics in the relationship. We learn here effectively how to try to change things...but from only ONE SIDE. Our side. The WS has to decide what to do.

I see it as a line is crossed. The WS decides at some point to walk over that line and will use foggy babble to blame the BS...Thanks Orchid...she's right on with the reverse babble theory! They'll say anything. Why? They are doing something wrong. It feels good. They are wrestling with their wrong vs. right and they're mucho loco. Quite confused.

My sitch: My x became a cakeater. He envisioned himself as James Bond. He made alot of money. He felt ENTITLED to his affairs. That is key. He felt ENTITLEMENT. And incidentally, I was the stay at home, cute little stepford wife who also had been his business partner, and even was working on having another child with this man when he secretly decided to eat cake all by himself.

I don't see it as either #1 or #2. I see it as an issue the WS has. When exactly and why did they decide to walk over the line if fidelity and decide that they were ENTITLED TO HAVE THE AFFAIR.????

My x and I, until D day was revealed, had what I considered a decent marriage. We talked, took many trips together, had a lovely son, and I was helping him grow his business. Things got really ugly after D day when I discovered his secret life...

I really don't buy the EN's approach either. No matter how much you read, how much you work on a marriage, time can change a relationship. Kinda like the seven year itch myth. When the WS thinks they are entitled to sleep around, it is pure and simple cake eating and the SUBMISSION and DECISION to become a cake eater.

At that point, it's not about us. It is about them. All about them. And yes, if you were married for years and you worked at home, raised the kids, and devoted yourself to your family you deserve happiness in your life. But you don't deserve to have an affair. Even if you worked fifty hours a week, brought home the bacon to your family, toiled at work tirelessly without vacations you deserve happiness in your life. But you don't deserve the right to have an affair.

I see affairs as about the WS only and their PERCEPTIONS AS TO WHY THEY MADE THE CONSCIOUS DECISION TO HAVE THE AFFAIR. We may be able to change our dynamics in the relationship. We learn here effectively how to try to change things...but from only ONE SIDE. Our side. The WS has to decide what to do.

I see it as a line is crossed. The WS decides at some point to walk over that line and will use foggy babble to blame the BS...Thanks Orchid...she's right on with the reverse babble theory! They'll say anything. Why? They are doing something wrong. It feels good. They are wrestling with their wrong vs. right and they're mucho loco. Quite confused.

My sitch: My x became a cakeater. He envisioned himself as James Bond. He made alot of money. He felt ENTITLED to his affairs. That is key. He felt ENTITLEMENT. And incidentally, I was the stay at home, cute little stepford wife who also had been his business partner, and even was working on having another child with this man when he secretly decided to eat cake all by himself.

I don't see it as either #1 or #2. I see it as an issue the WS has. When exactly and why did they decide to walk over the line if fidelity and decide that they were ENTITLED TO HAVE THE AFFAIR.????

STILLWED:

Remember Me?

My FWH does have deep childhood wounds causing him to need tons of ADMIRATION AND AFFECTION.
MB theory still fits and worked!!!!

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>