My x and I, until D day was revealed, had what I considered a decent marriage. We talked, took many trips together, had a lovely son, and I was helping him grow his business. Things got really ugly after D day when I discovered his secret life...

I really don't buy the EN's approach either. No matter how much you read, how much you work on a marriage, time can change a relationship. Kinda like the seven year itch myth. When the WS thinks they are entitled to sleep around, it is pure and simple cake eating and the SUBMISSION and DECISION to become a cake eater.

At that point, it's not about us. It is about them. All about them. And yes, if you were married for years and you worked at home, raised the kids, and devoted yourself to your family you deserve happiness in your life. But you don't deserve to have an affair. Even if you worked fifty hours a week, brought home the bacon to your family, toiled at work tirelessly without vacations you deserve happiness in your life. But you don't deserve the right to have an affair.

I see affairs as about the WS only and their PERCEPTIONS AS TO WHY THEY MADE THE CONSCIOUS DECISION TO HAVE THE AFFAIR. We may be able to change our dynamics in the relationship. We learn here effectively how to try to change things...but from only ONE SIDE. Our side. The WS has to decide what to do.

I see it as a line is crossed. The WS decides at some point to walk over that line and will use foggy babble to blame the BS...Thanks Orchid...she's right on with the reverse babble theory! They'll say anything. Why? They are doing something wrong. It feels good. They are wrestling with their wrong vs. right and they're mucho loco. Quite confused.

My sitch: My x became a cakeater. He envisioned himself as James Bond. He made alot of money. He felt ENTITLED to his affairs. That is key. He felt ENTITLEMENT. And incidentally, I was the stay at home, cute little stepford wife who also had been his business partner, and even was working on having another child with this man when he secretly decided to eat cake all by himself.

I don't see it as either #1 or #2. I see it as an issue the WS has. When exactly and why did they decide to walk over the line if fidelity and decide that they were ENTITLED TO HAVE THE AFFAIR.????

Mimi,

I guess my point was that if you KNOW that your H has childhood wounds then you probably did MORE in your recovery than just MB principles. I don't know of any mention of it here in the basic principles. It's wonderful that you found out about them and were able to work through them as we did.

Stillwed

Mimi...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just don't see the point of this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Forgive me if I've misunderstood you. I think you're questioning why the MB principles should be questioned by Mulan?

The MB principles are excellent, in situations where both parties are reasonably psychologically healthy and are wholeheartedly committed to having a healthy marriage. For those kinds of couples, there is a very strong possibility that working to identify and meet each other's needs will lead to a happy and fulfilling marriage.

However, the MB approach assumes that the betraying spouses's needs are rational, and that the infidelity is the result of a failure of giving. The prescribed MB solution is more and better giving. Which in many cases is just what's needed. But in other cases, the problem is that too much giving has already been demanded - to tell the BS that they need to give more makes no sense at all. In these cases, the BS should give less and demand more.

The good thing about MB is that it asks the BS to identify and rid themselves of as many bad marital 'habits' as possible. If the WS still jibes at the marital 'deal' - well, the BS can do no more. The can leave with the clearest of consciences.

The bad thing about MB is that it moves some BS's into a perpetual mode of over-giving, in the sad expectation that this will guarantee them a returned and grateful spouse.

So Mulan is making the valid point that MB should incorporate the notion that giving too much, or taking too much, is just as big a contributor to marital breakdown as giving too little.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can you give examples of folks that espouse to your theory that have recovered their marriages?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stillwed? (As she's already explained.)
Kat72?
Leilana?
Pepperband?

TogetherAlone

I will get off of this thread because I do respect folks rights to express their opinions.

I just don't think this is the place since it is a MB website.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MB should incorporate the notion that giving too much, or taking too much, is just as big a contributor to marital breakdown as giving too little. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who are we to question Dr. Harley's theory based on our own personal viewpoints? To me its a matter of respect. Why is it OK for you to say what MB SHOULD INCORPORATE?

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who are we to question Dr. Harley's theory based on our own personal viewpoints? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Human beings with brains?

TogetherAlone

[double post]

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: TogetherAlone ]</small>

Mimi,

IMHO, NONE of the great therapists/writers of our time have found the ONE thing that is going to cure ALL marriages. I don't think it's possible. There are too many variables out there.

I love MB principles and stand by them wholeheartedly. I believe that they are amazing, but not perfect. That's the only difference.

In my situation for example, my H has told me flat out that there was NO WAY he could be happy until he healed his childhood wounds. He said that he had placed me in a "no win" situation. So, according to my H, I could have applied all of the MB principles and we possible could have even had a very happy marriage because of it. Then, he would have still had times of depression and melancholy that he would have INSTINCTIVELY blamed on the marriage....HIS instinct was to blame the partner for anything HE felt. He had a false belief that the right partner would MAKE him happy. He knows that now, but he did not know it before. So, MB principles, ON THEIR OWN, would have failed in our situation...or at least that is what my H tells me.

That doesn't mean that I don't embrace the principles here. I do. We use them all of the time. They have been the perfect guidelines for us to use now that the wounds have healed.

Life isn't so black and white...neither is marriage recovery.

Stillwed

I know, I know. I said I was staying away from this.

I espouse and use other principles that greatly assisted me in Marital Recovery. My book list is long. I have been in and believe in IC and MC.

I'm just saying that it does not seem OK to me to espouse other principles on this site.

Seems disrespectful.

Ok. I'm really through with this. Really... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Dear Mimi,

You wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm just saying that it does not seem OK to me to espouse other principles on this site.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I disagree with you. That's okay, isn't it?

Now I would never come on here and tell anyone to abandon the MB principles and use another set of principles instead. However, I do believe that without a 100% success rate of marriage recovery, that even the good doctor recognizes that he has most of the answers, but not ALL of them. He's a great observer and reseacher. I think he watches these other opinions with great interest, personally. I may be wrong. Again...all I have is my opinion.

Stillwed

Actually mimi,

No need to leave..because it isn't MB that is so heavy handed with the ENs or bust assumption..it is the people who embrace it. Harley makes no such assertion.

Just as people will misinterpret plans A and B or put their own personal rinse on it..

..so also will people pick up one of his principles that applies in MOST cases..and declare that it applies in ALL cases. Not only does it apply in every case..it is the CAUSE and therefore the CURE as well.

This is what is offensive to those who would like to discuss their situation/thoughts/experiences..but run into the EN roadblock.

Yes, it is that common. I have seen many a post, in which a poster made it very clear that the A was the result of unmet ENs rather than unmet ENs being a contributing factor. This is also not an MB principle..yet it goes unchallenged. It places a great deal of responsibility on the shoulders of the betrayed for actions that were taken independently of their wishes and were entirely outside of their control.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TogetherAlone:
<strong> Mulan
As I see it, there are certain needs which are simply unmeetable. Examples abound... A man who subconsciously hates the 'entrapment' of parenthood may have a huge unconscious need to act like a single man. A woman who spent her childhood as Daddy's Girl may feel the need for constant paternal-type support, and feel outraged by the demands of motherhood. Someone who depends heavily on a sense of themselves as a sexually enticing being may find themselves without an identity within the confines of a monogamous relationship. And so on.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is right on the money. Some things YOU cannot 'fix.' That's why I say that sometimes porn habit/addiction is not about YOU. It is about the person addicted to the porn.

We all come into a marriage with beliefs, flaws, baggage. When one of these flaws rears its ugly head, you MAY NOT BE ABLE to EN it away, POJA it away, etc. At times, you may have to tolerate it, ignore it, or walk. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

No need to leave..because it isn't MB that is so heavy handed with the ENs or bust assumption..it is the people who embrace it. Harley makes no such assertion.

Just as people will misinterpret plans A and B or put their own personal rinse on it..

..so also will people pick up one of his principles that applies in MOST cases..and declare that it applies in ALL cases. Not only does it apply in every case..it is the CAUSE and therefore the CURE as well.

amen noodle...

this board...this one and just found out...have little to do with meeting needs in relationship to RECOVERY and AFFAIR PROOFING....

this board deals a heavy hand in meeting on EN...in specific contects...within specific plans..

people use this site like a grocery store...using and picking up what appeals to them...which is fine fine fine...
but you can't use a piece and a part..then claim it doesn't apply...

very few people posters on this board have counseled soley with the harleys...gone to the seminars...done the workshops work books etc...

this board scratches the surface of the resources it offers....

we talk a lot of meeting ENs but it is usually always in context to specific incidences...like a fogged-up WS that has convinced themselves there isn't anything their spouse could possibly do to get their attention...then walla...something hopefully grabs their attention...

the recovery board..may well have a completely different approach to the same issue...than this board...

have seen many a post, in which a poster made it very clear that the A was the result of unmet ENs rather than unmet ENs being a contributing factor. This is also not an MB principle..yet it goes unchallenged

please don't let this go unchallenged..I always ask a newcomer what is the "reason" the WS says for the affair...what is their perception..it is important information if figuring out how to communicate with the WS,.,but never ever implies guilt or cause....

but I agree totally with your post noodle..the first part... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

ARK

I've been following this thread all morning. First I read, then cleaned the bathroom. Then I read again and ate lunch. Then I read again and took a shower. Then I read again and thought I might possibly be able to post.

Sometimes I wonder if I actually ever did have a good marriage. Did WH always hold back so we couldn't communicate? Did I ever know his needs? Did he ever care about my needs? Can you have a good marriage if one partner is always keeps a part of themself back? When you marry young and your marriage rolemodels aren't that great, what do you expect?

My husband has many, many layers that he's never let anybody see. In our weeks in MC, I heard things from him I hadn't heard in 30 years. Or rather, I'd heard parts of the story before but he'd never let out the deeper bits. I've been giving for years but maybe I haven't given the right things. Until WH can get in touch with himself, I don't think anybody can fulfil him.

I'm very happy I found MB. I glad to use it's principals. It's good to know there are options beyond divorce. Regardless of what happens to my M, I will be a stronger, better person for the things I've learned here. I agree with both Mimi and Mulan. I respect Mimi a great deal because she's made it through to the other side. Mulan is still working very hard. Perhaps at some point, they need to agree to disagree.

***I always ask a newcomer what is the "reason" the WS says for the affair...what is their perception..***

Okay, I'm not a newcomer but I'd love to hear someone's take on this because I've never gotten one:

1) As to why he spent years ignoring me and going out to off-site lunches, dinners and parties with the attractive single women that he worked with -- and doing his best to make sure I didn't know about it -- "They were Work People. I didn't love them (even though he told one in an email that he did.) They were Work People." He said this to me as late as YESTERDAY, and coldly informed me that if I feel hurt and betrayed by this then my feelings are WRONG.

2) As to why he lied to me about going out to strip clubs when we had an agreement about this, and when our private life was a lot more varied (I do daresay) than the average married couple -- "I don't know."

Somebody please tell me what ENs I could have met that would have prevented these things. I'm serious. Really.
Mulan

mulan..

no one here could comprehend what needs you aren't meeting to make him that way....

and there isn't a direct correlation..

the question is why would they are work people be an acceptable answer to you...

They were Work People."

is that answer acceptable to you...
what does they were work people mean..

what does that mean to him..
that work people are entitled to more politeness, respect, and decency than you...

his reason for this affair that he claims is becasue they were work people??

mulan..
what are the reasons your husband sites for having his affair..
what are his words..
which by no mean hold your responsible for his actions or choices...

what does this man say to you in words and in actions that putting you before all others means...

and what answer is tolerable and acceptable in your world...

his i don't know..is not an answer..and if you accept I don't know that is your choice...

mulan...focus your control and power back on to you...
do not accept unacceptable..

ark

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Mulan and others,

Are we getting lost. This marriage that is being talked about. This institution is set up with rules. If one partner choses to follow the rules then I question whether this person should be married. If you decide to marry, do you need to follow the rules. Yes, if you want to call the relationship a marriage.

Mulan and others,

Are we getting lost. This is marriage that is being discussed. This institution was set up with rules. If one partner choses to not follow the rules then I question whether this person should be married. If you decide to marry, do you need to follow the rules. Yes, if you want to call the relationship a marriage.

Sorry about earlier post, I got distracted.

Mulan,

There people who should not get married. They are too inconsiderate, to selfish, to into themselves to ever be able to follow a monogamous set of rules, such as marriage. Persons of type 2 may be like this.

Ok My M -is totally different. My WH -seems to give the blame to me for anything that goes wrong in our lives. He takes the credit for anything good that happens. Example -we bouth a house on the gulf of mexico and I insisted we buy vactant lot at the same time -they were a package deal. He was furious -we built new house on vacant lot. Lost our shirts to a builder who stole money and left us with mechanic's liens ect. The house cost us a lot more. However the price of these house has gone up 4X since we bought. Before this he was angry with me -now He is the one who made the wise decision after I did a market analysis for him.This has been the case thoughout our marriage. He blamed me for our finacial problems in 2003 they were bad. Turned against me and started his affairs. I now have a saying that I say to him when he says thing like its not my fault -I say take responisblity for your own problems. We laugh but it is sad. He is a grown man with a brain of a child. He looked outside the marriage and told these women how I failed him blah balh blah. I feel without MC he will just slide back and he has yet to make an appt with MC. I am now leaving things up to him and not being his Mommy. Let him see how tough it is. Hope he wakes up and smells the roses.

I get concerned about newcomers like GRAPE who might profit from direct use of the MB Principals.

I find discussions about theories, psychology and self-improvement very intriguing and interesting.

I just think that now is not the time.

For many of us continuing to deal with the heartbreak of As, coming up with a PLAN and sticking to it, whatever it is, is essential. I know everyone cannot profit from counseling from Steve Harley. However, one thing that I really benefitted from was his INSISTENCE THAT I KEEP MY FOCUS ON MY PLAN. I am highly interested in psychological theories and would ask him this or that about the why and he would redirect me back to THE PLAN. What's going to work for you NOW.

Although I may look like I am on the other side, I have to continue to PLAN A. That's part of the reason why I continue on this site. If I try to help other people, I don't have my obsessions about the OW. This is my way of combatting evildoers like her and warding off her continued presence in my mind even though she is no longer a real presence in my life. Turning a lemon into lemonade. I believe that I will always suffer to some degree because the only love that I had in my adult life did this to me.

I continue to have nightmares about my H's A and many of the horrible experiences associated with it. I have to focus on the BATTLE and not the WHY, doing what works and this has worked for me and can work for many others.

Let's just make sure that we are not discouraging use of the MB SYSTEM!

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>