I'm new to this website, jumped right to this discussion because it seems to be the hardest part for me to get over. Do you all have difficulty being intimate now? I go crazy at the thought of what my H did with other W. It absolutely enrages me.

what the hell is intimate...
certainly i am not able to relate to anyone i have seen as i did cindy....sex scared the hell out of me until last weekend and it was very nice but not on the same level as it is with someone that you are in love with...is that intimate?...so i dont know how to answer that one but it is getting easier if only just a little bit

I think that is pretty normal at first, COG. Early on, I would flip back and forth from being repulsed because of 'what he did with her'...to reclaiming my territory and being incredibly more sexually excited and exciting. Overall that is known as the honeymoon period in recovery.

Now, the memories have no power over me...they are meaningless...and stay in the past. It does take time.

I'd have to take your word for it Trix..we missed the honeymoon period sexually..because I wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole for 7 months [and two full sets of std tests]

Ummm, I'm still a little uncomfortable with my method..but I have to admit it seems to work smashingly.

This weekend we had sex for the FIRST time since Dday with NO imagery. I was completely in the moment..so much so that I didn't even realize until later that I had SF sans OW/H porn simulcast in stereo.

Then I did it again. Closest thing to making love in TWO freaking YEARS!! Eyeball gazing and intensity and everything.

Now..I don't assume that all is now well..but I had been beginning to give up hope that I would EVER be able to enjoy sex again.

Now that question has an answer. Yes..it can happen..yes it will happen..time and practice.

So..I guess I do endorse "the plan" 'cause until I did this..nothing helped..and after..pretty soon after things got better.

Noodle

Thanks for your support Trix. How long has it been for you? The A that causes the mose heartache, was a 2 mo fling with a Chinese stripper so you can just imagine the thoughts that come to my head!!! I can't erase them, I think about what they did, how they did it, etc... obsessively sometimes.

COG,

We must have posted at the same time.

Noodle, This subject is absolutely fascinating. I suspect there is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more to this phenonomom than meets the eye.

I spend hours trying to sort this stuff out in my head - and usually come up with at least one theory, which is quickly overshadowed by posters who don't fit my model. (this is easily overcome by placing myself in the middle of the norm graph)

But for what it's worth - I think the imagery is a BS's secret weapon which is experieced at a subconscious level, to fight the interloper's attack on their relationship.

It seems the average relationship changes from romantic and that "in love" feeling sometime around the 2 yr mark. After that attachment and possibly addiction and habit takes over and keeps the couple together. The sex after that can become routine. (anyone see Meet the Fockers - where Barbara Streisand plays a sex therapist - she made some very interesting comments about sex and how you have to work at it after 2 yrs).

Anyway, affairs are about finding excitment and infatuation with OP - a highly enjoyable state of mind for those affected by it. So, when it happens what does the betrayed partner do? They've been content with attachment, habit and addiction (or however you care to discribe a long term relationship) but their partner is all fired up with excitment and a head full of endorphines over someone else. This is potentially very dangerous and threatening to the long term relationship. As seen here, the old relationship may not survive against the thrill and excitment of a new one. (sex is usually more exciting with a new partner - nature provides lots of hormones to make it that way - so that our species survives.)

So d-day occurs - usually accidently. Then wham bam, the BS is mobilized. It's so instinctive for the majority that the rush of panic to save the relationship sends the BS into a frenzy of mental and physcial activity. (I actually believe a BS becomes mentally unhinged for the majority of the recovery period - another topic maybe, but it's part of your question IMHO)

I don't want to talk about my own situation - but I was absolutely delighted to read your initial post. I think nature is extremely cunning and it uses every tool at its disposal to aid an individuals survival. The process of imagery - used to any degree can and does infuse the primary relationship with new excitment, desirability and bonding and often very successfully competes with the rogue relationship. It turns the attention off the OP and back on the BS. In affect the BS is saying "look at me - anything he/she can do, I do better". And the revitalised marital sex becomes just as hot as the A sex.

You Noodle didn't play ball initially (7 months) and others messed up this neat little trick by taking sex inhibiting A/D's. I think good sex is the most powerful tool a BS has to fight infidelity and taking pills that stop orgasms at a time when nature has provided you with a fight back mechanism is a mistake - no matter how nutz you think you are. I sympathise with those who have taken this path - but the sex thing was way too important to me. Not sex itself but what it represented. I had sex pretty much every day for two years after d-day. This was very unusual for me - and I became quite the orgasm expert. I think I'm an example of nature fighting back and winning.

My husband has said many times he's in awe of me. And has backed this up with endless expensive gifts..... I could be his OW since d-day - I am treated with much more respect and appreciation.

IMHO your question was never going to be asked. God it's like exposing one's underbelly. But you asked it, and I suspect a lot of people feel awkward about jumping in on this discussion. I must admit I was very surprised that one FWH's wife even told him she was doing it. It shows how powerful it is that even when a FWS knows their partner is doing it, that they are captivated just the same!

Anyname

anyname. What you say is great, and I agree for the most part. But not all of us have the choice to have sf everyday. I take AD for the depression part and the controlled climax, because the anxiety to perform up to what might or might not have happened with my WW A is really to much and I am not able to perform, therefore not able to please which leads to less SF, wich,well leads us back down a road I don't want to go again. It is hard to have SF when you are competing with a ghost in your own mind, and the body does not want to participate. For the BM, the SF is contingent on wether the female spouse desires to have SF. It has always been that way. The men do not have a say so. Would I love to not have to take anything, H*ll yeah. But my WW put me in a position that requires me to. The sad part is, I don't even know if the AD works for the control part. Haven't had SF in awhile to find out.

hnh, Thanx for your response. I'd like to chat with you some more on this topic. It's noodle's thread so if you care to start a new post I'd love to discuss it futher. I'm currently writing from Australia and I have to get on with my daily routine, which will have you tucked up in bed by the time I make it back to the computer.

There is heaps to learn about infidelity and the positives and negative spin offs. For what it's worth I think we on MBs can help you thru some of your sexual hang ups re the A. LOADS of males here that have been or are at where you are at. Time and knowledge of A's can give you back your confidence.

hope to talk more to you soon.

anyname

No no..I want to hear too..carry on!

COG,
It has been about 7 yrs since the longest/worst A and 2 yrs since his last A.

Anyname, I would love to discuss this, as this is one of my biggest hangup's right now, but first,

Thanks Noodle for this thread, It was not my intent to hijack it, but, it all relates,so maybe it is not a hijack. Thank you none the less.

Anyway, what part intriques you? My time on the computer is limited, but I will respond when I can. I welcome any insight or advice for support or critique. Anything that will aid in my understanding of this unbelievable event put upon me. I would, however, like to know a little of your story, as much as you are willing to tell anyway. Thanks

and again thanks noodle.

hnh, I don't know your story so I'm working in the dark a bit. I should look it up but to be honest it's midnight here and I am being foolish being on the computer at this time of nite. It means my brain won't shut off when I turn out the light in an hour or so. :-(

From what I've read here, the majority of marriages resort to sex quickly after d-day for reasons that are not altogether understood. I read one explanation that fear causes the body to flood with testosterone or related hormones that assist sexual performance. I presume it's instinctual and natures inbuilt response to infidelity - or competition from a third person. I was very bewildered when I discovered my H's A. I was deeply, deeply shocked - not angry, just shocked. On the third day I initiated sex. Unlike Noodle, it never occurred to me to think of STD's. I continued to think as I had always thought about my H and us until my mind could accept the huge change that had taken place in him. He said they didn't have intercourse. He tried to but she would allow it. (she was a 26 yo asian girl of low status - a domestic maid, and he a university professor nearly twice her age) He had always been the most decent of men, until then. I'd been with him since I was 15 - and I was a month off turning 50. I admired him more than anyone I knew. Until that nite. But, for some reason I reacted by initiating sex 2 or 3 days later. I was very confused but part of me thought I wasn't going to let that little tramp make off with what we had worked so long and hard for.

I don't know enough of how WWs think and respond to their BHs to know why you aren't having sex with your wife much. Can you enlighten me a little on this? Has she stopped seeing the OM? Is she very sorry and sees her actions as a terrible mistake? What's the situation between you?

::::::::: I take AD for the depression part and the controlled climax, because the anxiety to perform up to what might or might not have happened with my WW A is really to much
and I am not able to perform,

Have you heard of Wellbrutin? (I hope I've spelt it right) It's an A/D that is meant to increase libido. I understand that it's not so much your libido thats suffered as shock and horror of what your wife did with another. But most anti depressants suppress the ability to orgasm and if you are taking one that has that affect, then your SF isn't going to recover until you stop taking the drug. I suppose it's a chicken and egg kind of problem?? I totally understand the insanity and the tape playing and the inferior thoughts - but somehow you are going to have to sift thru your situation and work to over come the problems bit by bit. I know, it's a lot easier said than done. Sometimes I think you pretty much have to kiss 2 yrs goodbye, as I think it takes that long to make any real progress.


::::::::: therefore not able to please which leads to less SF, wich,well leads us back down a road I don't want to go again. It is hard to have SF when you are competing with a ghost in your own mind, and the body does not want to participate. For the BM, the SF is
contingent on wether the female spouse desires to have SF. It has always been that way. The
men do not have a say so.

Well, I think a little differently. If she has been unfaithful and she's truly sorry and wants to stay married to you, then she should encourage intimacy with you. She should be trying very hard in every area of the marriage but especially in the bedroom. She needs to have some sensitivity to what you are going thru. It it unfair of me to say this of her?


::::Would I love to not have to take anything, H*ll yeah. But my WW put me in a position that requires me to.

Have you read the thread by Renaissance Man about anti depressants vs St. John's Wort. I think there are a number of supplements on the market that can provide help that don't mess with the sexual function. Do read that thread if you have time.


:::::::The sad part is, I don't even know if the AD works for the control part. Haven't had SF in awhile to find out.

I'm not sure what you are trying to control? I await more information re your situation. Especially why you haven't had sex in a while. This is not good. Recovering couples need sex - unless you are waiting on the outcome of tests for STDs.

I await more information whenever you have time,

A

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by anyname:
<strong>
...But for what it's worth - I think the imagery is a BS's secret weapon which is experieced at a subconscious level, to fight the interloper's attack on their relationship...

...the BS is mobilized. It's so instinctive for the majority that the rush of panic to save the relationship sends the BS into a frenzy of mental and physcial activity. (I actually believe a BS becomes mentally unhinged for the majority of the recovery period - another topic maybe, but it's part of your question IMHO)..

...The process of imagery - used to any degree can and does infuse the primary relationship with new excitment, desirability and bonding and often very successfully competes with the rogue relationship. It turns the attention off the OP and back on the BS. In affect the BS is saying "look at me - anything he/she can do, I do better". You Noodle didn't play ball initially (7 months) and others messed up this neat little trick by taking sex inhibiting A/D's.
Anyname </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of these observations are true IMHO. This was my experience too.

I did try to one up the OW...and I did things I normally would not do in an effort to "top" the OW.

And about coming unhinged...I did that too. In hindsight I can see just how crazy I became. And looking back on this has helped me to understand and BELIEVE in the "WS fog" People can and do go off their rocker temporarily.

I chose NOT to take AD`s precisely BECAUSE they would affect my sex drive. I did look into Wellbutrin but decided against that because of a possible link to heart attacks. Nope...I didn`t take ANYTHING....I experienced the fullblown craziness and depression....and the wild over the top sex drive <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanx for your input Daisy. I think this process is a major one and it seems to be largely ignored on MBs for reasons that are obvious - it's very personal. People finding themselves caught up in infidelity get a lot of help here, but it appears that a large number of us don't share this important aspect of our recovery processes with new folks. It can seem hypocritical of the BS to be so badly hurt and then to be using the the experience to heighten their sexual response to their WS. I have rationalised it as natural's way - but far more so since reading the comments here from others like yourself.

I hope Noodle comments on my post too. Mostly because she was brave enough to come forward with the phenononom and I have tried to theorise a little about it. I think there are other spin offs to this too which I will expand on if the thread unfolds with more interest in the subject.

AN

AN,


I have MANY thoughts about what you have posted..I'll be at it later..possibly this evening..more probably tomorrow..thanks for posting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Noodle

From a man's (BS) perspective, I don't know about that. I found out last month that my W was having an A for about 9 mo, near as I can tell. I asked about the SF and she said it was great b/c it wasn't reality. I believe her and know what she's like there and it is great. What's more is our SF historically has been mixed. The idea of her w/ him really, really gets to me! I haven't asked about the gory details and probably shouldn't know them but my imagination sees her giving him everything and more.

Me 40 (BS)
W 37 (WS)
M 14 yrs
D-Day 1/19/05
2 great kids - B11 & G8

I'm glad this thread has come back. It is so interesting!

For those who don't know me my H's A was 9 months, with the PA part about 7 or 8 months. H is still foggy on the timeline. Within 2 weeks of my finding out about the PA we were having sex. I just turned 50 and have noticed throughout my 40s an increase in my sex drive. Because H was a monogomous WS he deprived me of sex. So frankly I was extremely horny after d-day. I was more than ready to resume sex. At 1st we just gave each other Os. Emotionally I couldn't screw for a while. The thought of him screwing her was just too hurtful. The first time we did it I think I sobbed afterwards for about 10 minutes. The 1st for everything was very emotional. Just the thought that he did what we did with someone else sucks.

I have noticed something on MB, but maybe my observation isn't accurate. I'd be interested in feedback. It seems like the FBHs here have a much tougher time with their FWWs in the sex dept. I don't know if the FWW gets stuck in some romantic fantasy or what. It just seems like sex is more of a problem. What do you all think?

Concerning ADs. I chose to get on Lexapro within 2 weeks of the truth coming out. I could tell that I was going into a major depressive episode. For me I don't regret for a minute doing this because it helped me get a grip. In my case he was working with her, "in-love", and even after he fired her she worked for another month. Plus his withdrawal was aweful. Without the Lexapro I'm not sure I could have sustained the great pain I was feeling, and would have been able to carry through with the MB program. Remaining steady helped get him out of his extreme fog, and kept me from dumping him.

The Lexapro never took away my drive, but eventually inhibited climaxing. I went down to a low dose of Lexapro mixed with Wellbutrin and that still didn't work. My psychiatrist said some people are just really sensitive to the SSRIs. I am now off the Lexapro.

What anyname said is correct. Wellbutrin can increase sex drive, and it is the only AD that does not effect sexual functioning. My H is on it. The thing is if you suffer from anxiety Wellbutrin isn't great for that. In fact it can make it worse. So it's a Catch 22. CV

:::::: have noticed something on MB, but maybe my observation isn't accurate. I'd be
interested in feedback. It seems like the FBHs here have a much tougher time with their
FWWs in the sex dept. I don't know if the FWW gets stuck in some romantic fantasy or
what. It just seems like sex is more of a problem. What do you all think?

CV, I've noticed that too. I agree with your likely reason for the problem. Generally, women who've experienced A sex have been so wow'd by it that they can't get too excited by sex back at the coal face. Their ability to return to the same old, same old can create a problem unless they feel abundant compassion and sorrow over what they did to their innocent spouse. I think most BH's would do better to threaten the end of the marriage when a WW is discovered, because it seems to me that deep fear is what jump starts hot sex in woman. (wish I had more time to elaborate on that) I presume it depends on whether the WW really wanted the primary relationship.

I have to be a one paragraph screamer this morning. This discussion is excellent and I wanna keep exploringit too. I have had some specific thoughts about your case CV. Firstly though, if, when I get time to write back properly, I say what I think - pls don't feel I'm being judgemental about the choices you made. This whole subject is great from an academic viewpoint and shouldn't be taken personally. Many people fall a long way either side of the norm with recovery. In fact I think the norm after infidelity is all over the place (we define our own norm).

Wish I had more time. It's lunch time in OZ and I am now meant to be somewhere esle. Plus, I'm looking forward to hearing more of Noodle's input. Btw CV, your increased sex drive in your fourties can be explained by estrogen dropping in your fourties allowing testosterone levels to elevate. (this is what I've read and sounds reasonable).

An

A Hello anyname, I am back now and will try to pick up where I left off.

hnh, I don't know your story so I'm working in the dark a bit. I should look it up but to be honest it's midnight here and I am being foolish being on the computer at this time of nite. It means my brain won't shut off when I turn out the light in an hour or so. :-(
my story summerized, new guy starts job in sept/oct. put on project with wife in neighboring city(45-60 min comute). They spent alot of time on the phone(work related supposedly) I confront her about possible out of work relationship forming. She denies this, claims only working relationship. I start seeing IC in oct. over jealasy issues. I catch her in some lies over phone calls W him. Fast forward to 12/20. She goes to other city for a two day work project and decides to stay night in other town, I don't like it, but nothing I could do. I call her and discuss some undergarments she is wearing.(she lies about it) We have heated discussion, and hang up. Icall back later to smooth things out.anyway,I felt a gut feeling something happened. Perform panty test, feeling confirmed, notify OM wife, Then W when she got home. no denial, just silence,"it just happened, I didn't plan it" blah blah blah. It was a one time PA.
She quite the project, has seen om twice in passing, minimal email(monitered work only) She is currently active in job search. 0 contact now. still work for same company, but not together.


From what I've read here, the majority of marriages resort to sex quickly after d-day for reasons that are not altogether understood. I read one explanation that fear causes the body to flood with testosterone or related hormones that assist sexual performance. I presume it's instinctual and natures inbuilt response to infidelity - or competition from a third person. I was very bewildered when I discovered my H's A. I was deeply, deeply shocked - not angry, just shocked. On the third day I initiated sex. Unlike Noodle, it never occurred to me to think of STD's. I continued to think as I had always thought about my H and us until my mind could accept the huge change that had taken place in him. He said they didn't have intercourse. He tried to but she would allow it. (she was a 26 yo asian girl of low status - a domestic maid, and he a university professor nearly twice her age) He had always been the most decent of men, until then. I'd been with him since I was 15 - and I was a month off turning 50. I admired him more than anyone I knew. Until that nite. But, for some reason I reacted by initiating sex 2 or 3 days later. I was very confused but part of me thought I wasn't going to let that little tramp make off with what we had worked so long and hard for.

If you check them out, most is regarding WH, Wife almost always try to fight back this way.


I don't know enough of how WWs think and respond to their BHs to know why you aren't having sex with your wife much. Can you enlighten me a little on this? Has she stopped seeing the OM? Is she very sorry and sees her actions as a terrible mistake? What's the situation between you?

She shows some remorse/guilt. We are working on M, but still do not talk about A. which is a big thing for me. but have to be patient.


::::::::: I take AD for the depression part and the controlled climax, because the anxiety to perform up to what might or might not have happened with my WW A is really to much
and I am not able to perform,

Have you heard of Wellbrutin? (I hope I've spelt it right) It's an A/D that is meant to increase libido. I understand that it's not so much your libido thats suffered as shock and horror of what your wife did with another. But most anti depressants suppress the ability to orgasm and if you are taking one that has that affect, then your SF isn't going to recover until you stop taking the drug. I suppose it's a chicken and egg kind of problem?? I totally understand the insanity and the tape playing and the inferior thoughts - but somehow you are going to have to sift thru your situation and work to over come the problems bit by bit. I know, it's a lot easier said than done. Sometimes I think you pretty much have to kiss 2 yrs goodbye, as I think it takes that long to make any real progress.

::::::::: therefore not able to please which leads to less SF, wich,well leads us back down a road I don't want to go again. It is hard to have SF when you are competing with a ghost in your own mind, and the body does not want to participate. For the BM, the SF is
contingent on wether the female spouse desires to have SF. It has always been that way. The
men do not have a say so.

Well, I think a little differently. If she has been unfaithful and she's truly sorry and wants to stay married to you, then she should encourage intimacy with you. She should be trying very hard in every area of the marriage but especially in the bedroom. She needs to have some sensitivity to what you are going thru. It it unfair of me to say this of her?

I would agree with you on this, but I cannot dictate how she should or shouldn't feel or act on this. I am all about gaining the intamacy, I just don't see it returning soon.

::::Would I love to not have to take anything, H*ll yeah. But my WW put me in a position that requires me to.

Have you read the thread by Renaissance Man about anti depressants vs St. John's Wort. I think there are a number of supplements on the market that can provide help that don't mess with the sexual function. Do read that thread if you have time.

I will, time is issue for me at this point.

:::::::The sad part is, I don't even know if the AD works for the control part. Haven't had SF in awhile to find out.

I'm not sure what you are trying to control? I await more information re your situation. Especially why you haven't had sex in a while. This is not good. Recovering couples need sex - unless you are waiting on the outcome of tests for STDs.

I await more information whenever you have time,


As for The A/d. This is helping with the roallercoaster ride, I have checked with my doctor, and decided with my health issues, this would be the best kind for me. It is also meant to help with climax control issues. It has not suppressed my desire, but, because of my anxiety over the mental pictures/movies I have every time we try sf,(it has been about 4 times s
ince dday 12/20/04)I am not able to last long, which I feel is a problem in satisfying her.
As a M, we do not dictate when we have sf, it is the W choice. You being a W can usually have sf anytime you want, M are always in the mood. But M have to wait for W to get in the mood. If I am wrong, maybe other men will post differently, but I am guessing few will.

We just got back from a night away together, turned out very nice. still did not talk about A, but was not planning on it. SF was fantastic, still had thoughts/comparison issues(were they like this, did they do it like this, allthe same BS that goes through my mind) but, I was able to perform better. Maybe a start? I don't know yet.

She has started reading some books, so that is a start. we do not argue as much and force ourselfs to talk things out rather than leaving them alone.

I am not sure If Anything I said has any bearing on your situation, but I love being able to talk about it. it is a good relief.

I await your response.
HNH