tummy,

I am in Malaysia.
I think out of the 21 months, we had about 2 good months.
I always thought I was the lucky one on MB... I saw a lot of BS strugling with ongoing As. My H's As are over when I found out. I think I would've gone crazy if it was still going on.

He walked out, yet he didn't want a divorce. So we tried. And now we have just gone back to where we were before DDay. I am miserable knowing how little progress we have made. But then, how can we make progress when all he thinks is... give it time, she'll get over it.

Sigh.

I feel manipulated this way:

H is lazy and doesn't care of Ruffled, or takes Ruffled for granted (she's threatened D but never really got on with it, right?). So no need to meet ENs...

H selfishly goes back to meeting HIS own Ns, buying toys, going to the races when Ruffled is at church, year-end and new year parties, etc. Ruffled lacks ENs... reminds H. H is lazy... I'll do it later. Ruffled waits three or four days... nothing happens. LBs. H: Oh you LB'ed. How can I love you when you LB? I am just not attracted to you when you LB. I don't like to be reminded of what a lousy H I am. All we do is just LB LB LB, I am tired. I can't do this anymore! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Stop LB'ing!

Ok Ruff,

You are going in a vicious circle. Sounds like you don't like it but not willing to do what it takes to get yourself off this merry go round.

If you want off, please consider the following:

1. Improve yourself image to make you comfortable and happy with you. Not pleasing him. That's 2nd.

2. Once item 1 is accomplished, give reasonable amount of time to have him notice the new and improved Ruff. Show more confidence and poise.

3. Create a plan B.

4. If the WS/xws continues to make you feel worthless, execute plan B.

5. If he is your H, notices the changes and meets your ENs. Go to recovery.

6. If you execute plan B for a reasonable time and your LB is near empty, then go to plan D.

Got it?

L.

I'm in a situation that I need my WH in order to remain in HK. I'm here on a dependent's visa. That situation will change after next year because I will be entitled to Permanent Residency. Are you an expat or Malaysian? Can you remain there in your own right? TT

Orchid, I hear ya!

1. Improve yourself image to make you comfortable and happy with you. Not pleasing him. That's 2nd. I did that for a while. It isn't difficult to do. I can do it again.

2. Once item 1 is accomplished, give reasonable amount of time to have him notice the new and improved Ruff. Show more confidence and poise. Ok.

3. Create a plan B. Will read what plan B is all about again today.

4. If the WS/xws continues to make you feel worthless, execute plan B. This is where I suck. I let H come back too easily. Worse, I call him up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

5. If he is your H, notices the changes and meets your ENs. Go to recovery. This may be the most difficult part yet-- recovery

6. If you execute plan B for a reasonable time and your LB is near empty, then go to plan D. I think I am here now, without Plan B

Nahhhh ahhh...Ruff...you are NOT there yet...

Dont do plan D yet...do plan B.

You are doing great focusing on yourself but now you need to let him go. Stop calling him. Whenever you feel like calling him to discuss something...THINK FIRST...is that "something" very important?...can you solve it yourself?...if not important and yes you can solve it yourself then DON'T call WH.

Do 6 months of plan B...to live life without WH...something like pretending WH is not around which means you must make the effort to ignore him. After 6 months then revalue again if you still want him or need him?

How did i lose that feeling? After my last episode with OW where i confronted her again in Nov 04...i decided that i needed some time break from WH.

I told WH that i will back off and start to focus on myself. I wanted to start thinking about living on my own. I wanted some time to think if divorce is what i want or not. During this time...i stop calling him...i ignored his calls and messages. I put up boundaries too. Dont do things concerning WH whereby you KNOW you will be disappointed in the end of the result.

You will feel indifferent towards WH if you do plan B...i think you should soon before you go GILA... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Take care

You need to think of the things you need in the framework of habit building. Your situation sems very similar to mine. We are working on these things and I do feel incouraged. I need affection a lot and wasn't getting any. I want a kiss when my H goes out the door. To work on that habit for a while I had to chase him out the door to remind him that we needed to kiss. Now he is remembering to come to me for a kiss when he leaves. He even remembered and kissed me in front of his children this weekend. He is very shy about kissing in front of anyone else. I want the door held open for me when we go in a restraunt or store. He is learning this too. I just hold back and he is getting better. I count time we spend watching tv, his choice of programing, as part of our 15 hours per week alone time as long as we are snuggled up on the couch together. He has even learned to be more snuggly in the bed when we are just sleeping. These changes have not happene in a day or even a week but over the course of about 6 months. It is possible. I need compliments realy bad. My husband doesn't talk much and a lot of what he sais is synical and even mean spirited. A few months ago I realized he needs compliments too. I also realized that when you need compliments then it is realy easy to be hurt a lot by anything negative that is said. This has been a harder one to work on. One friend suggested flat out asking, "Do you like my ...?" Of course if you want the compliments then there may be things to change. My H didn't like the way I was fixing my hair when I asked. I got out my photo album and went back to find a style I had tried in the past that he liked better and went and changed it back to that.

Hi rb123,

I value your input very much!
I must admit though, my pride stops me from 'leading' and 'teaching' H the way. You see, I know he is capable of being loving. He is capable of affection. That is how I fell in love in the first place! And that was how he wooed OWs. I read it all in his emails to them... he says things like 'I started to miss you the minute you got out of the car.' that caught my attention so much, that's how I discovered the As.

I don't know if it's 'wrong' for me to expect these things from him. My colleagues pay me compliments when I lost weight after Dday. Everyone noticed the change in me except H. It hurts that my own H doesn't see me. It hurts that my H is jovial and happy with other people but is sullen and miserable with me. He steps out to take a smoke and I see him talking on the mobile, laughing and smiling, like he needed a break from my company... as if every minute with me is misery. You know, no one forces him to be with me.

Zizzy, six months is a long time for Plan B. I don't know whether I can do it. Besides, in my case, there is no current OW.

I read about Plan B again and it basically says to detach oneself from the cheating spouse, in order to save the BS's sanity. The thing that is driving me insane here is H's inability to connect with me, to talk to me about us and the M, how to fix our R, fill my ENs, his ENs etc. Oh, he talks alright. He talks about work. He is interested in my work too. It's just that he CANT SEEM TO TALK or IS NOT INTERESTED IN THE M or R with me, and that sucks big time, causing me to LB some more. I want him to spend time with me to BUILD INTIMACY. We are like two friends, and I don't want to be friends. I am his WIFE. I want my position as his WIFE first, then I'll be his friend.

I will not be seeing him the whole of next week. I know I will be ok. It's just that when we are together, it drives me crazy that he's 'not there'. His mind is somewhere else, it's like he is clocking in everytime he sees me... he doesn't seem to want to spent more time with me... as long as it's a few hours everyday, mission accomplished. No intimacy, no kiss, no nothing.

I wish I could have a make-believe, good looking, tall, mature man to hang around with me. Y'know, a little kiss here and there right in front of H. That might put some urgency in him. I don't lie very well. I need to borrow a friend!

Ruff - I did not find MB 2 yrs ago or things may have changed sooner. I know I would have handled alot different than I did. Now listen I realized that somehow I had done the plan A and some plan B. Without knowing it. I lost alot of weight and H did not notice for over a year. Until someone asked him if I had been sick. Yes sick of heart. He said he looked across the room and noticed that I was skinny. WOW -yeah I had been dieting for 1 and 1/2 yrs. I went from size 1X to a size 10 and almost an 8 now. I was a size 12 when he noticed. I also had started not caring if he was late or early from work. I stopped going to his sister's with him for weekends. I stopped being available for him. I started talkling to other people when we were out/ he would turn his back on me. Then he noticed guys flirting with me. I enjoyed that made me feel better. Had to buy new cloths right. Boy do I look good. He had been saying bad things about my haircuts. Wel one day he came home I looked great had new haircut. He looked at me and said had your hair cut ! I said yes -he just stood there looking at me -I said you don't like it huh? He said no - I just laughed a little and said I figured you wouldn't after all there is nothing you like about me and walked away. That left him speachless. After that he started changing. He has been chasing me for a few months now. He knows my feelings for him have changed. I am different -he can not hurt me anymore. I have gotten to the point where he can do what he wants. I do not know if that is good or bad. I do not intend to let him hurt me again. Not saying if I find out the A is still going on it will not hurt. I am sure it will -but I am ready to move on if I have to. I need to get over my pain. So guard your heart girl and be strong and you will get stronger.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Ruffled: Orchid, I hear ya! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Ok, let's see how well you heard me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> 1. Improve yourself image to make you comfortable and happy with you. Not pleasing him. That's 2nd. I did that for a while. It isn't difficult to do. I can do it again. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Ok, this is a good start.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> 2. Once item 1 is accomplished, give reasonable amount of time to have him notice the new and improved Ruff. Show more confidence and poise. Ok. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Good, still headed in the right direction.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> 3. Create a plan B. Will read what plan B is all about again today. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: This will take work. It may seem impossible but it is not. Make sure you get the correct understanding, not the one that causes BS fear. Plan B to a BS is a support tool that brings relief.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> 4. If the WS/xws continues to make you feel worthless, execute plan B. This is where I suck. I let H come back too easily. Worse, I call him up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Ok, now you need to pay extra attention here. In steps 4, 5 & 6, you can only be in 1 of those steps at a time. You can't have plans or responses for all them....they all have different directions. This is where I think you aren't hearing me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now go back and decide which item (4, 5 or 6) you will cocnetrate on. Evaulate it against your feelings, goals and direction.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> 5. If he is your H, notices the changes and meets your ENs. Go to recovery. This may be the most difficult part yet-- recovery </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Recovery is hard but don't spend time on it if he isn't ready.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> 6. If you execute plan B for a reasonable time and your LB is near empty, then go to plan D. I think I am here now, without Plan B </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Cant be here if you haven't done a good plan B. In your case you are experiencing a false recovery and now you are angry. Temper that anger. Don't rush for a D unless you really don't want your H back. You can be angry at the Ws but find out first if your H is really struggling to come back or has been sucked up by the mothership never t/b seen again.

L.

Orchid,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In your case you are experiencing a false recovery and now you are angry. Temper that anger. Don't rush for a D unless you really don't want your H back. You can be angry at the Ws but find out first if your H is really struggling to come back or has been sucked up by the mothership never t/b seen again.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Grrrrrrowl... I didn't realise I am in false recovery, but of course, looking back (and I haven't even noted it here), yes, that's what it is.

H did say sorry for the affair, it won't happen again. To him, it is as simple as 'he won't allow himself to touch another woman again, that's it'. He accepted full responsibility for the As, it wasnt Ow's fault, it was his. And I played a part in it by our constant fighting. I 'drove' him to the arms of another woman, because she was there to symphatise with him, she looked up to him and thought a world of him... she was friendly with him, and he took advantage of it.

My H is a classic CA. He gets extremely stressed up when I ask a lot of questions about his behavior. When I talk about us, or our R or the M, he feels he has done wrong. It feels as though I cannot tell him of my unhappiness in the M because that'll mean he is 'wrong'. It is so difficult to talk to him. I tell him, it is not right or wrong, black or white, it is because we are different and we need to accept and understand our differences and still love and protect each other... he doesn't understand this.

He says when we fight, he feels he has to give in all the time. He feels he can't out talk me (okay that's my fault coz that's how I fight) and I make him feel he's wrong all the time. I tell him he needs to stand up to me... I don't want to step over his head all the time, I don't think I want a hen-pecked husband, I need someone who can stand tall and strong by my side, protecting me. He can't do that, he says.

So I tell him, if the relationship with Ow is so right, you don't fight, you don't disagree, you are happy all the time, she looks up to you, and she makes you happy, then don't you think you and her should be together (!). He says no, but can't tell me why. Of course, this will require him to think and oh oh, I see the headache coming on, he is extremely stressed, he has to go, it is late etc. end of conversation, good night. See what I mean?

I think he is looking for the mothership now....

Orchid, a few months after he left, he said that the As were a mistake, he loved me, and he wants to make things right again. It wasn't so bad in the begining. I did a good enough Plan A. Amidst the shock of DDay, if he was leaving, I wanted him to remember the love we had when we were very young, and I did manage to bring those memories back.

Of course, anger, resentment and indignity set in. That's when 'trouble' came. He doesn't know how to deal with these emotions. I see him struggling... I guess he is a little lazy, he doesn't make the effort to read or understand himself (I gave him every page of MB principles that I have printed out, including some meaningful forum posts, and a few books. He never read them, and never returned the materials to me)

From the mothership, everything is possible with a little effort. He has no idea how hard it is to change. And change is just not a paradigm shift in attitude, he needs to understand the underlying problem, and only he himself would know what they are, if he search and dig deep enough. I don't expect him to be a phD overnight, but reading helps a lot. Counselling is rare in my country, but at least reading, if you can't go for MC/IC.

I am getting impatient everyday. It is almost two years now, and we have not gotten very far. I hate to be the one to spoonfeed him, but I did tell him he is not alone, there are a lot of people who has M problems and he is not stuck in how he's made. To understand this and to grow from it will enrich his life. But he needs to take the first step. And he doesn't know how.

I think of people like KiwiJ, She is one of the first posters I read when I discovered this forum. I wish my H has the motivation to be here. He thinks MB is some $$ making psychobabble, and he, my dear H, can come back to the marriage anytime he wants by declaring his love for me, pursuing me, no problem <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I don't know if I want my H back at this point. I can't enter the mothership with him. He is a bull sitting inside, confused and heavy. I don't have the breath or the strength to pull him out if he wants to be there, safe. I don't know if trouble runs in our M again, he'll go hide there and I need to get him again... it is just too much effort. Too much effort for someone who do not offer me emotional or financial security and who may die young for all the cigarrette he smokes, for his high salt intake and stress level. Besides, I am not smart enough to see through the lies, the deceit... I am so straightlaced, you need to tell me in the face... I can't read between the lines, I have problems with people who imply, who are vague and who beat around the bush.

Yes, I did make a vow to be a good wife through good and bad, but I thought I made that vow to someone who vowed the same for me. I will help him if he helps himself, however, I will not mother him. He has to be responsible for the well being of this relationship too. He can't be the lazy one whilst I do all the work, he can't behave immaturely and expect that everything will be forgiven and forgotten, without him making effort to make ammendments. Does it all seem too much? Not when two people are making the effort.

Back to your post Orchid, I really do appreciate your making things clear. I am quite confused about having to make a Plan B as there is no Ow. So okay, I need a Plan B to get away from all the negativity. It's going to take some discipline because I admit I want H's company whenever it is possible. I hate being alone and doing things alone. As long as I don't talk about the M, the A or our R, everything is fine. No sf though. This will only last one day or two then back to square one I LB again. Sigh.

I'll try do a Plan B this week because both of us are in different parts of the country. I will have to tell myself not to be needy (and pathetic). If I have the time, I'll get a manicure and some new clothes, and play with my young nephew. I will miss my H, but I am hoping that he will turnaround, somehow. I hope some of the things I have said to him, mostly written in this post, will give him something to think about.

Thank you, all. Your sharing and mirroring has been helpful. Although I am still struggling, this has been a better week for me. Being able to pour this out and knowing someone is there for me... I feel I have much of God's blessings. I am grateful.

Ruffled

This is tough.

I have to remember the objective of Plan B is to save me from getting crazy.

Meanwhile, do not talk to H till... till when?
(very embarassed) Sorry, I am not good at this.
What should I expect out of H now?

H has already said he will try harder, he will make up for the wrong he has done etc, yet he does very little. He may not know what to do, or he may just be lazy. I can't tell. I just feel that he's trying to pull a fast one on me again. I get a little confused here. If you can figure this out, do share... if not...

...Plan B is about me, and this is not the time to worry about things that are not there (H).

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: Ruffled ]</small>

Ruffled,

Getting a handle on this stuff takes time. Read my post again in a couple of days and see if you get the same or deeper meaning.

It is hard for a BS to make decisions even if it is for your own good, when your mind and heart are not in sync. Work on that 1st.

Remember plan A vs plan B vs D are all different plans for different reasons. One may lead to another but they have their own agenda and purpose.

You can't be in all plans or processes at the same time.

Step back, do some deep breathing exercises and read over the info again.

Get ahold of His needs/Her Needs book and read it. If you can get your H to read it fine.

He is blaming himself, that's a start but that alone will not fix him.

re: One's car can have a flat tire, knowing it is a start but until you actually repair it, the knowledge itself will not fix the problem.

L.

My update:

I did Plan B for about 4 days and allowed H to contact me, we met and I am okay for 1 day then angry for the next 3 days, stop contact-- and yes, am on a merry go round.

I need affection, he can't supply.
I am at my wit's end. I asked for D, he said ok.

I stopped contact 4 days this week, and made an appointment for IC.

I am weepy, angry, can't sleep, dread going to work, cannot concentrate on what boss tells me, I feel eternally sad... or extremely angry. I feel a lot of pain. I was in bed most of Saturday.

I am looking forward to my IC session tomorrow, although I don't know what I want out of her...

I want a loving husband who cares for me. I am struggling too much with H. He is struggling also. He keeps saying he doesn't know what to do, but refuse to talk to anyone or read. He is a complete dufus and is too stubborn. Right now I feel I deserve better, someone intelligent and mature. Someone who is 'big' enough in his heart to love me despite my faults.

I have given H 2 years in separation.
2 years to try.
I just want to be happy again.

Ruffled

Ruffled, 2 yrs is a very long time to make no headway. It really is time to think about yourself. Why can't you go dark. Let him miss you, let him wonder? Surely that is worth trying before you go to D.

tummy,

I don't know if I can do that-- go dark.
And now, things has gone so nasty, so sour with all the fights, I don't know if he still wants this marriage.

I will take it one day at a time.

Right now divorce seems less confusing than Plan B. With divorce, I know I am done. With Plan B, it seems like an eternal wait.