I've been posting in Just Found Out (see full story there) but see there are more people in here today.

Today is day 9 since d-day. She is out of town w/ a friend trying to sort things out. I'm all alone here and began looking for clues as to when this all started. She has led me to believe that A#1 of 2 lasted only about a yr from sum 01 - sum 02. I was looking up cell phone info last night when I realized that it was really 7/00 to 12/03. In 1/04 I went out of state on job search and landed a job she was going to stay and move w/ me in Apr. A#2 started in 2/04 and ended when I confronted her 1/26/05. So, she was in her mourning period from A#1 and I wasn't there so OM#2 stepped in. We've been married 10 yrs and I don't know the last time she was truthful. In MC she said I smother her and give her too many rules. Plan A says to forget the A and be nice to her while she is in the fog. I still have questions. The whole truth is not out there yet. Do I/we need this out there to move on? I don't want to attack her and have to start the Plan A time over. At the same time, I feel she is still hiding things from me. She was out of town w/ a friend 2 yrs ago an I think she may have seen OM#1 on that trip. I think I need to know, but am afraid to push her away. If I ask she will know I've been snooping again. That will justify to her why she doesn't think she wants me. Why can't I stop snooping? Do I subconciously want this over?

advice here is quite sound my friend. Every BS has a desperate need to know that spawns out of protecting our wounded egos.

Fight this urge and remember that much of what she was/is working out possibly has much less to do with you than it does with her.

Remember that your vow was to love her in sickness and in health, for better or worse. This is the time to remember that vows are about more than fidelity. They are about non-judgemental love.

While it may seem your time is needed elsewhere investigating, KILL THAT IDEA!!! You ALREADY know. You are likely in the delusional BS fog, looking for irrefutible evidence you can confront her with. Ironically, confrontation is NOT what is required here.

Time is on your side. Get your feelings and strategies sorted out. No critical attack in military history has been successfully made
without non-confrontational recon for gathering intelligence, evaluating the task, and making a daring plan involving some great risk.

Recovering your WS is NO EASIER. Plan wisely.

God bless

Not confronting is very hard. What WW said in MC is that I am too passive aggressive. If I have something to say I should just say it. Our MC also says that it is better to err on the side of honesty than niceness. Is staying quiet erring on the side of niceness and not letting my true feelings out? Or are these feelings that I should save for my IC (which starts 2/14). Where do I drae the line between nice and honest?

Not confronting is very hard. What WW said in MC is that I am too passive aggressive. If I have something to say I should just say it. Our MC also says that it is better to err on the side of honesty than niceness. Is staying quiet erring on the side of niceness and not letting my true feelings out? Or are these feelings that I should save for my IC (which starts 2/14). Where do I drae the line between nice and honest?

Not confronting is very hard. What WW said in MC is that I am too passive aggressive. If I have something to say I should just say it. Our MC also says that it is better to err on the side of honesty than niceness. Is staying quiet erring on the side of niceness and not letting my true feelings out? Or are these feelings that I should save for my IC (which starts 2/14). Where do I drae the line between nice and honest?

Hi onmy,

(((((onmybday)))))

I'm pretty new at the posting but I wanted you to know that someone's listening. 10 days into it is a pretty overwhelming place and your posts echo very much what I felt. It does get better!

I don't want to give any advice that is contrary to anyone here, but your line "Plan A says to forget the A and be nice to her while she is in the fog" caught my eye. I don't think that Plan A is about forgetting the A. I doubt very much that you could actually do this and my guess is that if you tried, you would find yourself madly working to NOT think about it, causing yourself major internal stress since you do think about it and then all the negative emotional energy would eventually explode (and harm both you and your wife if she is in the vicinity).

In my understanding of it, Plan A is ALL about the affair. No, you aren't discussing it non-stop or anything. But the efforts that you make are focused on ending the affair and demonstrating that your marriage is indeed a wonderful place to be. You are "nice" to her to help her get through withdrawal, yes, but your lovingkindness also indicates to her (and to you) that you are a person who does not LB, DJ or act out in anger. Not just for Plan A, but for the rest of your life.

One thing that took me awhile to "get" was that WH's choices were his. There was NOTHING I could do to force him to end his affair if he didn't want to. Not the most incredible Plan A ever delivered. Not the tightest, darkest Plan B. It's painful to think that our spouses would make choices that hurt us. It's terrifying to think that we have no say in the matter.

I read your other posts and I thought, "wow, this guy's doing some serious work!" But I am a bit worried that you are working so hard because you perhaps tend to take responsibility for choices that aren't yours (her comments that you crowded her gave me pause). It isn't your job to fix the marriage alone. I was tempted to think that I could read MB until 3:00 am, attend IC/MC, Plan A my frightened little butt off and somehow everything would be okay again. You certainly can do all those things and, from your end, the marriage will be better for it, but she also needs to be on board and do her part. (That said, doing these things will probably help make you a better person - I know they did for me - so they aren't ever useless.)

I hope others chime in here that have waaaay more experience than I. But you got some good advice on your other thread. Sleep. Eat. Casual fun time together. Casual fun time by yourself. Try to set aside your A thoughts now and again, if only for a little bit. It's tough - the triggers seem to be everywhere at the beginning. But one day at a time.

All the best,

Gris

Hi onmybday,

Sorry for what has brought you to MB. Here's my 2 cents worth:

"Plan A says to forget the A and be nice to her while she is in the fog."

Plan A is not about forgetting the A! Plan A is to let your WW realize that being at home with you is the best place to be, to convince her to begin NC with OM, and to provide her with a safe place to heal.

Read and study up about Plan A, not LBing, etc.

You don't have to tell her you've been snooping. Whenever you two are discussing your R, tell her calmly that to be able to understand what has happened and how to recover your M, you feel you need to know as much as possible about what has happened - such as, a truthful timeline, etc.

God bless,

Rose

I don't think that successful love and honesty are alot different than successful sales.

Odd as this sounds, consider the following.

It is hard to sell someone anything when you can't describe what is great about it in concise detail. When you get the closing opportunity, you need be ready prepared to deliver the pitch. Did you know:

NO SALE HAS EVER BEEN CLOSED ON HOW BAD THE PRODUCT USED TO BE.

I know that like every other BS, my urge is to listen to what we I want to hear. There is a medical term for this selective perceiving. It is called the Reticular Activating System. It works to filter out information that we consider irrelevant to our immediate situation so we can concentrate on what we believe ot be our biggest problem.

So when you hear be honest before being kind, you may hear "freely express how I feel about the A or the M." I'm here to tell you the Therapist likely meant something different.


They are likely talking about HOW to reply when ASKED about your feelings. I know both my wife and I LIED to each other for years out of "kindness" for each other. "Does my hair look good taday?" "Am I getting fat?" We are assaulted daily in the popular (sick) media that their are proper social responses to these questions. Few seem to value honesty first. I would submit that THIS is what the therapist was suggesting, and not an honest assault about what has hurt you.

If you feel a desperate need to be open and honest, then be a great salesman. Sell the product (the marriage) on what is GREAT about it. If you don't know what is great to the degree you can sell it to her, you need to figure that out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A is not about forgetting the A! Plan A is to let your WW realize that being at home with you is the best place to be, to convince her to begin NC with OM, and to provide her with a safe place to heal.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do I do this when she says the problem is I don't give her enough freedom. She refers to it as me putting a 'choke chain' around her neck. I thought letting her go to visit her friend out of town w/o me calling every hour would be a good start. Of course I am worried that she is thinking more about OM or living on her own then how to get past the fog so we can move on (albeit slowly). How to I plan to spend time w/ someone who doesn't want anyone in their time?

Okay...here's what you need to do. DO NOT obsess about what she's doing while she's out of town, there's nothing you can do about it anyway, if she's not being truthful and seeing the OM this weekend, then that's what she's doing, there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Concentrate on what you CAN DO.

In plan A you want to be loving towards her, you want to show her that you are a viable alternative to the OM, that she can count on your love for her, even though she's hurt you.

Don't do this by constant "I love you's" and things of that nature, go to the Emotional Needs Questionnaire, print out 2 copies, fill one out for yourself, and see if she might fill one out for you, so you know what her emotional needs are, and then make every effort to fill them. These are changes in YOU that you need to make PERMANENTLY. Plan A is showing your WW that you are able to change, and not in the short term, that you can fill her needs.

Concentrate on that, and less on what she's doing, who she's with....etc., because (And I know it's easier said than done) YOU can't control anyone but yourself. So, start concentrating on you.

-Caren

Your wife is asking for space. What would happen if you gave it to her?

Will she go running back to OM? Possibly. But that is not something you can control. You said, "I thought letting her go to visit her friend out of town w/o me calling every hour would be a good start." Did you "let" her? Did she (or you) feel that this was something that required permission?

Why would you call her every hour? Certainly, a WS needs to (willingly) provide some serious accountability to the BS after an affair is over. If a BS needs to call every hour for personal reassurance to feel "safe," then that's what the marriage requires for recovery. But would you be calling her to "make sure" she's not with OM? As though your hourly phone calls would somehow a) keep you and your marriage at the forefront of the fog as a motivator to not hurt you by going back to the affair or b) make it logistically difficult to continue it?

It is true that many BS's who request "space" only want to remove themselves from the guilt they feel when with their WS's and to give themselves freedom to continue the affair. But sometimes it is exactly that "space" to see the affair for the fantasy that it is that brings them out of it. The fantasy of the OM and living on her own is probably pretty strong. But sometimes unless that fantasy is destroyed by an attempt to actually live in it, it remains a fantasy and a beckoning alternative to the difficult work of recovery (oh yes, I speak from personal experience here).

Maybe you can't "plan" on spending time together. Maybe you can just invite her, without pressure, to hang out sometime, doing something that you know she enjoys. If the affair comes up, you can honestly tell her how much it hurts you and that while there are definitely things in the marriage that are not healthy, that you believe that they can all be worked through with time and effort on both your parts. And then perhaps just leave it at that, until the next time it comes up.

Just my $0.02.

Gris

Listen to CarenMC mate. Read her story.

Affair recovery is not about hurt and mistrust. It is about strength. This is truly gonna take everything you can muster, and alot of effort can be painfully squandered without the right approach. Trust me on this. I've been there.

Some great feedback. Thanks to all.

1. Did I let her go out of town? Did she or I feel it was something that required permission?
I don’t know. I used to joke about giving her ‘permission’ to do things. I was only joking but it still bothered her. As far as this weekend. I told her that I understood why she needed to go and I encouraged her to have a good time and to begin to sort things out.

2. Would I be calling to make sure she is not w/ OM?
The OM is ½ a country away, so it’s the EA that I still worry about, not the PA.

3. It is true that many BS's who request "space" only want to remove themselves from the guilt they feel when with their WS's and to give themselves freedom to continue the affair. But sometimes it is exactly that "space" to see the affair for the fantasy that it is that brings them out of it. The fantasy of the OM and living on her own is probably pretty strong. But sometimes unless that fantasy is destroyed by an attempt to actually live in it, it remains a fantasy and a beckoning alternative to the difficult work of recovery (oh yes, I speak from personal experience here).
She feels great guilt right now. The other day I realized something and asked her about it. She was more upset than I was and I hurried home to let her cry on my shoulder. She feels that I shouldn’t be there for her after what she has done to me. I just try to stay positive in those moments and let her know I am there for her.

4. Maybe you can't "plan" on spending time together. Maybe you can just invite her, without pressure, to hang out sometime, doing something that you know she enjoys. If the affair comes up, you can honestly tell her how much it hurts you and that while there are definitely things in the marriage that are not healthy, that you believe that they can all be worked through with time and effort on both your parts. And then perhaps just leave it at that, until the next time it comes up.
Our first “date” last week was a disaster. (see other string). I have already asked her on another date next weekend. I am going to make plans for us to do something that we will both enjoy. She always makes plans for us so I told her I wanted to make plans this time. I know she will like that b/c she said she is tired of having to make all the decisions about what we eat, where we go, etc…

I really appreciate the encouragement from EVERYBODY. I have a loneliness issue I need to work on. I’ve known about it for a while and have tried to ignore it. It will be a hot topic when I start IC on the 14th. Please continue to feed me encouragement and I will get through this day by day. I think the first thing I will do is go take a shower and get out of the house. Run some errands or something.

There will be opportunities, no doubt, to talk about the A, if your WW brings it up, then you can tell her how you *feel*, make sure you don't say "Your affair *made* me feel bad"....she didn't MAKE you feel anything.

Look at this list of 'feeling words' to help you when you do talk about it:

Feeling Words

You have to avoid DJ's (Disrespectful judgements) and LB's (Love busters) when you do talk.

You'll do fine, just gotta remember to approach her in a loving way.

-Caren

Went and ran some errands today. Made me feel better to get out of the house. A friend called and we are going to go out tonight. He doesn't know and I probably won't tell him. We are casual friends.

Took the Emotional Needs questionaire. I plan on sharing with my W when she is ready and I will ask her to fill one out as well. We made lists of our needs for our MC last week and she had a ton. IT was a long list w/o any order to them. I am very analytical and like the way the ENQ is organized. She is more right brained and I only hope she understands that the reaon I need it in this form is b/c it is easier for me to process.

After looking at my top 6 (I know it only asks for 5, but I added a 6th b/c Honesty and Openness is in the top 5 and I can't be sure that it is there b/c of the current circumstances) I am concerned that though we may end up w/ similar top 5s, our order may be vastly different. I am almost sure my 6 will be her 1.

One day at a time. I just need to manage the in-betweens.

Yeah, the order is an important difference....the order is generally different between men and women, hence the reason that you should both fill them out.

Women normally don't have 'sex' in their top 3 - and men generally have sex listed as number 1, if not number 1, very close, but that's really what you should concentrate on, filling those top 3 EN's once she fills that out.

Good luck hon,

-Caren

Bumping up for OnMyBday <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

How are you doing today? HeartNSoul was concerned about you... Let us know if you have any questions we can help you with...

Semper Fi,
RIF

ONMYBDAY

How are you doing today? Breath, eat, sleep, hang in there!

This is such a painful experience but many many here are doing okay. You will too.

Hi OMBd - How's it going this evening? Are you still around?

just posted a big string on just found out. doing a little better. won't rehash story i just wrote there.

I will add that I am not entirely convinced that her reason for now looking for a job instead of growing her business isn't to give her some cash to go. I really think she is planning on co-habitating (seperate rooms) until we are more stable financially. The way I look at it (i think) is that it could be a few months, giving me plenty of time to work on me and show her how much she would be losing. Positive thinking sucks, but its all i have. I can't help but tell her I love her she replys every 3rd or 4th time which is better then never a few days ago. I told her a few days ago that I didn't expect her to respond but I meant it. I hope this fits ok w/ plan a.