I wonder if this is just me. We went to the marriage counselor the other night from our church. We're there talking and he says "I know i'm hard on the men,or biased, but anything that's going to happen in your marriage is going to have to come from you, because men are the initiators" This kinda ticked me off.
It's like everything is the mans fault. If we dont pray, it's the man's fault, if there's not enough money it's the man's fault. I'm like, i thought this was a joint effort i've been thinking about this all week. and everytime it makes me a lil more angry. i'm really thinking about telling him that we need a "Professional" counselor, not someone in the church that has no degree specializing in marriage counseling.
what are some of your opinions.

The world's full of opinions. [censored] too aparently.


Find a therapist that has the same goals you do and listen openly. Prepare some questions and interview THEM. This might be the biggest shopping choice you ever make.

The one Deeply and i saw couldn't council 10th grade girls on careeer choices. We had more luck with the people here on MB frankly.

Bottom line. You need to balance finding one that has your core ethics and goals, and then evaluate each statement for how it works for you. In the end, you need to walk away from this a happy person.

All ours did was to "try and get us talking." His version of this was to get us to point fingers and blame each other.

Q) "Sprint, How did the affair make you feel?"
A) "Not quite as awkward as THAT stupid question, actually."

Q) "Deeply Sorry, did you feel uneasy in the marriage prior to the affair?"
A) "No, I just like to randomly hurt people i love"

professional ain't what it used to be...

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: sprint ]</small>

Of course the "men" rationale is a crock.

Would you take legal advice from a plumber, or plumbing advice from a lawyer?

Same thing with relationship counseling or coaching. Don't look for it in church or a gas station or a grocery store. You get what you pay for.

I was wondering if it was just me.

I am not real religious but from some of what I've read here and men being the spiritual heads of households..maybe your church *does* believe that ultimately it comes down to the man...

meaning..if the family is not spiritual enough and thus not reaping God's blessings, it is at the man's feet.

But this is just what I've gathered from reading here, so can't really say.

UGH. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Time for a new Marriage Counselor I think.

O

I think there are two seperate issuses - and they are being blended together...

1) Yes, the man is the spiritual head of the household. --- I take full responsibility for the fact that we weren't in church for the previous five years...If we had been I think my WW would have been less likely to choose the path she is now on.

2) No matter where the family is spiritually, each person has to make his or her own decisions and face the consequenses (whether they be emotional, psychological, or spiritual) of those decisions.---My WW chose to break our martial covenant, and continues to do so unrepentantly, and has potentially scarred a innocent 5 y/o child due to her selfishness. Someday she will have to stand up and accept responsibilty for her choices and may end up carrying a huge amount of guilt, sadness, and spiritual pain.


TM

well here's my situation we go to church "Every" sunday and during the week as well. my wife is upset because she says "I'm not the spiritual head" I work hard every day, i'm a great father provide for my family she stays home, I'm in church regularly, but because i dont pray with her every day "I'm not the spiritual head" and at the counselor he agrees. anything that is'nt right is "the responsibility of the head" and it really gets old after a while. you know.

The odd thing IMHO is that gender roles realy don't fit our society like they did 30-40+ years ago.

As near as I can tell it many people want and equal relationship with their mate. The transitional time we are in makes that difficult.

I feel like I constantly get the "I want to feel like an equal partner in this M" then I get the "You have not been a very good leader in this M".

I am not sure what to really think day to day.

Isn't the repsonsibility for X really supposed to be negotiated and agreed upon instead of being assigned or assumed?

P.S. I think I would personally not go to that MC anymore.

It doesn't matter who you got it from ... even the one that you pay the most might not work for you and the free one might just help you out. The worst kind of faith based counselor is the one that has no faith and no clue.

Check w/ American Association of Christian Counselor if you are looking for Christian Counselor. However you still have to interview and check your gut feeling if you could work w/ her/him.

Good luck.

-rh-

Hi MA,

Well, this is an interesting question.

For me and my family, We both agree that God has placed me as the spiritual leader of my family. This doesn't mean that I was responsible for my W's A's...

If you read in Ephesians 5:22-33, you'll get a better understanding of how God desires for a husband and a wife to be... Again, for me and my family, following these principals works for our M. Sadly, many well intentioned pastors/MCs will take one verse of scripture and apply it universally to every situation.

Our MC was a licensed MC and he worked through our church... many pastors will provide MC without any specific training. There is nothing wrong with asking your MC if he has any professional training.... or looking for a new one if you are not satisfied with your present one.

One bit of caution is to not keep looking for a new MC everytime you don't like what he has to say... if you and your W are dealing with infidelity... then a good, professional, pro-marriage MC session is sometimes going to be painful for BOTH of you... it's not going to always be a "feel good" "lovey dovey" bunch of sessions. If you aren't being challanged by your MC and you feel pretty "comfortable", then maybe that MC isn't doing everything that they can to help you and your wife...

Just some of my thoughts... I by no means want to try and force my opinions or beliefs on anyone... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Semper Fi,
RIF

"...anything that's going to happen in your marriage is going to have to come from you, because men are the inititiators

If your counselor is going to try and help you with this anitquated line of thinking,then I would seriously consider a new counselor.This isn't about facing some tough questions that your counselor presents you both with.This is about the faulty thinking that only YOU are supposed to intitiate anything,meaning fix,change and work on the marriage.It is not solely your responsibiltiy to make an effort here or be first all the time.It takes an equal contribution to making this marriage recover.

And,just because you do not worship with your wife *every day doesn't make you any less a "spiritual head" or any less of a devoted and hardworking dad.This may be an issue with the both of you if your WW is expecting you to drop to your knees every day instead of tending to your children or the home or other responsibilities.Isn't this possibly an excuse?

We have talked about compromise/negotiation here before,there has to be balance.You go to church every Sunday and sometimes during the week.I think that is wonderful.But let's not lose sight of the fact that your WW has just as much work to do in this marriage,and on herself based on all your posts,and trying to blame you for not being the "head of household",as if that is going to make everything all better,is just plain old.Men AND women have the ability to be head's of the household,run it well together ,be equal partners and work as a team.I think that is what I believe a marriage should funtion as anyway in this day and age.I want someone to walk by my side,not in front and not in back.

Sorry if this doesn't appeal to your thinking MyAdvocate but this is just my opinion to your posts.I would consider talking to Steve or any counselor that is very PRO marriage and is aware of MB principles.

O

The views that your wife and counselor are expressing are typical of very literal fundamental churches. Don't let them "brow beat" you into believing that you are being a bad husband because you don't fit that model.

I am a moderate to conservative Christian myself. I used to by into the same line of garbage your counselor is feeding you. By ascribing to this model, you are set up to fail. In their terms, the "spiritual head" is responsible for the conditions and behavior of his family. That FORCES you into a controlling "overseer" role. It drives you to treat your loved ones as "underlings".

You're role as a leader in your home is fundamentally different from Jesus' role in the church. Jesus is perfect...you aren't. Therefore, because Christ is perfect, total submission to Him is completely safe.

Total submission of one human to another is never completely safe and we inherently know this.

I think a better model is one in which the leader "think soberly" of himself. He acknowledges his weaknesses. he's willing to share responsibility and authority when his wife demonstrates a strength where he is weak. In short, you lead when you are strong, she leads when she is strong, and you both celebrate your diversity in skills and strengths. Your spouse is not your child...they are a sovereign entity capable of their own relationship with Christ. You are not accountable for your wife's salvation.

I used to be very legalistic and measured my spirituality by how often I was at church and how regular my prayers were.

Legalism is bondage. Don't fall into it. It leads to nothing but frustration and misery. That was never Jesus plan for us.

I'd recommend that you come to a new agreement about the marriage model you will employ. Make it clear to your wife that you want a marriage in which you are equal but sovereign partners.

Lastly, I agree with other that think you should find a new counselor...one that lacks a specific religious agenda. It's been my experience that many so-called "Christian Counselors" are poorly trained, believing that their deep faith is all they need to be a good counselor. I'm sure their intentions are good, but they often lack the skills to truly diagnose issues and properly treat them. It is a wise pastor that understands when he's in over his head and sends a couple to a licensed professional counselor. A good number of pastors bite off more than they can chew.

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wonder if this is just me. We went to the marriage counselor the other night from our church. We're there talking and he says "I know i'm hard on the men,or biased, but anything that's going to happen in your marriage is going to have to come from you, because men are the initiators" This kinda ticked me off.
It's like everything is the mans fault. If we dont pray, it's the man's fault, if there's not enough money it's the man's fault. I'm like, i thought this was a joint effort i've been thinking about this all week. and everytime it makes me a lil more angry. i'm really thinking about telling him that we need a "Professional" counselor, not someone in the church that has no degree specializing in marriage counseling.
what are some of your opinions.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MyAdvocate - As a result of reading your "What does it mean to be a spiritual leader in the home" thread I went back and read all of your threads.

MyAdvocate - I personally have some very strong concerns for both you and your marriage, but even moreso I am concerned about the sort of advice you've been getting (from the large majority of posters). You and your wife both claim to be Christians. You are NOT,apparantly, dealing with ADULTERY, but rather, are dealing with the working out of differences between husband's and wive's.

First bit of "advice" to you is to restrict your advice seeking to other more MATURE Christians, and seek NO advice from non-Christians on how to be a good "Christian" husband in a "Christian" marriage. No matter how possibly "well-meaning" in their attempts, non-Christias DO NOT come at marriage from a Biblical perspective of it being a COVENANT relationship between husband, wife, and God. This is a public forum with all sorts of people here, so you need to be careful and discerning regarding the "advice" you receive and/or apply to your Christian marriage. A lot of it can be "nice sounding," but so did Satan's "reasonings" with Eve as to why "God didn't really mean what He said when He said, 'you shall surely die.'"

Second bit of advice it to seek JOINT, not individual, marital counseling. BUT that counselor MUST be a trained Christian counselor who is trained IN biblical and marital counseling. This does NOT mean simply someone in the church or in a pastoral role. Their degree of training is very limited.

If you'd like some help finding such a counselor, I can provide you a link to a National group of trained biblical counselors, many of whom provide free counseling for their ministry.

Third bit of advice is that we, or at least I, need more information about your marriage. How long you've been married, how old the two of you are, whether or not you BOTH consider yourselves to be "born-again" Christians, WHAT type of church(denomination, etc.) you attend, whether or not there are any children, your AGES(you both sound as if you are acting like very young people), etc.

This information is going to be very helpful in formulating replies to you.

Now, you asked what being a "spiritual leader" is like (in your other thread). Instead of trying to give you a "list" of "to do" things, let me sum it up the best way that I know how to from a biblical perspective.....A Posture of Servanthood.

Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, and mind....and love thy neighbor as thyself. Upon these two commandments, the "greatest" of all commandments, hang ALL the Law and Prophets.

Without love, I am as a clanging cymbal.

Lastly, both you and your wife are behaving, thinking, and reacting in very selfish and self-serving ways. Neither of you seems to understand what "servanthood" means, nor what it means to be obedient to God even if your don't "feel like it."

It has been said by another poster, and I agree with it, YOUR primary role is God first, Spouse second, children third, everyone else and everything else a very distant fourth. I think, from what little I have read of your multiple posts on multiple forums that you are both very "immature" in the faith. That's not to "slam" you. That's to hopefully get you to understand that GOD is a PARTNER in your covenant of marriage and you both need to be focused on a closer walk with HIM. Do that, and you WILL grow closer to each other. HOW to do that is what you learn as you grow in "maturity" in the faith.

I look forward to you "fleshing out the details" before commenting further.

God bless.

FH,

MyAdvocates W is having an EA,at least.So he may not be dealing with Adultery per se(not known) but he is definitely dealing with an Affair.

O

The reason I posted this question is because I am constantly hearing how "Men Are The Heads/Leaders/etc". It seems that this standard has been placed on many christian husbands, and if they do not live up to "The standards" then they are not good husbands, despite the fact that they have personal relationships w/Christ, are providors, and are men of good character.
I really can't tell you how many men that i talk to that are stressed trying to live up to the standards placed before them. Husbands are not pastors, nor do they substitute a wife's personal relationship with the Lord.

IMHO it seems like many men are being compared to pastors financially, spiritually, and many other ways. When in reality a husband is not a pastor he is your husband.

I truly agree in the partnership within the marriage that it is a joint effort throughout.

In my post i'm merely trying to get opinions to see if anyone else has experienced this.

Octobergirl - Thanks. I found his original post on JFO that indicated his wife has some sort of relationship going with her ex. So there is definitely "marital infidelity" going on.

MyAdvocate - While I'm still not sure what it is you really want to know, and you have not answered the questions so that we can get a better a feel for how to possibly help you, I will try to address a few of the things you are "doling out" in your brief post:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The reason I posted this question is because I am constantly hearing how "Men Are The Heads/Leaders/etc". It seems that this standard has been placed on many christian husbands, and if they do not live up to "The standards" then they are not good husbands, despite the fact that they have personal relationships w/Christ, are providors, and are men of good character.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Christian husbands ARE supposed to be the spiritual head of their household as Christ is head the church. It IS a role that is taken on when you marry. It is one of the reasons why we are told to "not be unevenly yoked" and why we should not enter marriage lightly. The "standards" you seem to be bemoaning are God's standards, not Man's standards. Whether we "like" the standards or not is irrelevant. God doesn't ask to "like them" before we do them, He simply says "do them" because He has so commanded.

Not "living up to" the standards does not make someone a "bad" husband. It does open the door to sin and problems in the marriage. Since none of us IS perfect, we WILL make mistakes. That is why two things happen along our journey of Sanctification; 1) we are forgiven when we repent of sin, 2) we are taught how to not repeat the same mistakes. Sometimes the consequences alone are enough to "teach us the lesson," and sometimes it takes much study to understand HOW to apply God's principles to our lives.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really can't tell you how many men that i talk to that are stressed trying to live up to the standards placed before them. Husbands are not pastors, nor do they substitute a wife's personal relationship with the Lord.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Marriage ISN'T always easy and neither is fulfilling the role that God has assigned to those of us who choose to be husbands. But God NEVER commands something to be done unless He also provides the necessary resources so that we CAN do what He has commanded. Understand that God is NOT telling us that we must do these things solely in our own strength and solely with our own limited and finite human resources. God promises to provide all the strength that is needed when you follow Him in humble obedience. I can do everything through Him (Jesus Christ) who gives me strength. (Philippians 4:13 NIV)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO it seems like many men are being compared to pastors financially, spiritually, and many other ways. When in reality a husband is not a pastor he is your husband.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Husbands ARE husbands and the spiritual head and leader of the family "just as" Jesus is the same with His "bride," the church. It may seem tempting to NOT want to live up to this role, but running from God is NOT the answer. Just ask Jonah. The "difficulty" of the task is not the issue. Obedience to God's commands is the issue whether or not we "feel" God has the "right" to command or not. We ARE His. Jesus "bought and paid for us" with His life, blood, death, and resurrection on our behalf.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I truly agree in the partnership within the marriage that it is a joint effort throughout.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MyAdvocate, marriage IS a partnership in that neither husband nor wife is intrinsically "better" than the other. They are "completers" of each other. BUT, God, because of the FALL, has instituted roles that each is responsible for fulfilling withing the marriage. A husband, for example, IS responsible for love in the marriage because God has commanded the man to love his wife. But God has not commanded the wife to love the husband. The wife is commanded to love and obey her husband as he fulfills his role as the spiritual head of the household. At the same time, God promises that that the marriage WILL have mutual love in it as BOTH the husband and the wife walk closer to God in "Christ-likeness." That is the idea behind the image of the "triangle" of the marriage covenant.

.........God
........../\
........./--\
......../----\
Wife/____\Husband


As both grow closer to God, the distance between husband and wife WILL become smaller. That is God's promise to a Christian couple who DO the work needed to have a closer walk with Him, regardless of how they might "feel" at any given moment. God says, "do" in humble obedience, and you will have a "positive result."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my post i'm merely trying to get opinions to see if anyone else has experienced this.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, MyAdovcate, many have "experienced this."

Now, going back the EA issue with your wife. Your wife is in willful disobedience to God. So it would be helpful to know if your wife considers herself a "born-again" believer who did have a saving conversion, or is she merely someone "brought up" in a particular "denomination" but never truly accepted Jesus Christ as her personal Lord and Savior?

One thing is very clear, when sin enters, each of us needs to examine our own lives and determine if the faith we hold is real or not. God CANNOT tolerate sin, so if we are "fooling ourselves" by thinking our "sin" is "nothing big," we had better rethink our position because God determines what is sin and what is not, and God determines whether we are saved or not. But He does give us things like the Parable of the Sower to warn us about "false" Christianity.

I hope that helps a little, MyAdvocate. I also hope you will provide the information that is needed so that we might be better able to help you and your wife.

God bless.

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

Thanks FH - You have a wonderful way with words and can express yourself so well... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Semper Fi,
RIF

Thank you all for your insights. Thank you FH.
I realize that there is a standard that God gives us there are standards for personal relationships with God, and there are standards within a marriage relating to your relationship with Christ.

There is a standard set by God, and there is a standard set by men. I'll use myself as an example. I have a personal relationship w/the Lord. I am actively involved in the church I raise my children in a Godly fashion. I ocassionally have devotions w/my wife. I work an average 6 days a week and attend church three times a week, Sunday/Wed, and men's prayer tuesday mornings. My wife and I have been going to one of the pastors at church for counseling.
and i posted his comments on a previous post. He stated that "You are the initiator and that any change within your marriage is going to have to come from you, you're going to come home one day and your wife may be gone" My wife proceeds to say that she has been carrying the marriage throughout the course of our marriage because we don't pray together daily, and have daily devotions.
She states that we have to pray and have devotions on a daily basis, which i truly cannot commit to. I can commit to devotions and bible study, but not on a daily basis, so as a result it seems that I am not living up to the standards as the "Spiritual Head" I am merely trying to get clarity as to what some of the views are regarding standards placed by man, and standards placed by God, in relation to individuals within this forum.

This topic did prompt me to search the scriptures a little. In relation to some of the biblical scriptures surrounding the headship reading in Genesis from a biblical perspective In Genesis 1:18-24 God acknowledged that "it is not good that the man should be alone" It's funny how "man" was with "God" and God himself said it is not good that the man should be alone.
Which shows that you can still have an intimate relationship with the Lord and still be considered "alone"

God proceeds to say "I will make an help meet for him". I believe that the purpose that God created woman was to be "an help meet" for man. Looking at Gen 1:19 after God acknowledged man's aloneness he proceeds to create "every beast of the field and every fowl of the air" placed them before Adam to see what he would call them.

Why would God say that "it is not good that the man should be alone" and then proceed to create the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air
place them before Adam to see what he would call them?

I believe that God gave Adam "purpose" prior to his "help meet" if man had no purpose why would he need an help meet.

A Godly man with relationship and purpose can still be "alone" and needs an help meet according to the scritptures in Genesis, to assist (in oneness) the purpose of God placed before the man.

I don't have time to post the all of the scriptures and examples right now, but i will share this.

Looking at the order that God created man, and woman i believe that within a christian marriage a man has a relationship with God, God gives man purpose direction, God places an help meet to accomplish the purposes given to "man" the head.

I believe that when this is out of order it really creates confusion and division. In my own saga apparently i'm not living up to the expectations perceived by others in relation to being the "Head" and Spiritual Leader.