This is in responce to the discussion we were having on the thread that was locked and deleted by Justuss...(It did get kinda out of hand.)

I talked with my pastor about Wicca religion and he admonishes, if we are Christians, then we should be counseled by Christian counselors rather than Wiccan/Witchcraft counselors.

That is ok with me, I agree with him.
I would want to know beforehand if my counselor was a Christian or not.

However, to each his own beliefs, that is a FOR SURE!

He (Pastor) has the right to believe and preach what he truly believes...And I, as a member of this church, (Baptist) should do what I believe Jesus teaches us to do: in deed, word and behaviour.

Sincerely, Julie Jo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

I truly believe that affairs are great equalizers and it shouldn't matter what religion you belong to. We all feel the same pain. TT

Tummytuck....
The exact same pain, that is an:

ABSOLUTELY FOR SURE! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I understand and relate to your APPREHENSION about anything that has to do with WITCHCRAFT.

I'm so useless when it comes to religion. I can't believe that heaven is full of only Christians. I can't take it. I am a Christian. It is what my parents bestowed upon me. I believe most people take their parent's religion. We pass it on from generation to generation and because we trust our parents, we believe we are right. A Hindu child takes their parent's religion. A Muslim child is educated in the ways of the Koran because of their parent's beliefs. It is the way of the world. It is an accident of birth. But surely, so long as we lead a good life, aren't we assured a place in heaven? TT

Thanks to all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

STAR:

I certainly agree with you. Despite my personal apprehension about this belief system, I feel we need to be sensitive to her pain at this time.

She and all others struggling with infidelity are called out in my prayers.

Star*fish, I went back to 'cherished' thread to delete the article about 'Wicca' from my pastor and it will NOT let me edit...It said only moderators could...If you want to write the moderator to have him or her edit out that part with the article, you have my permission.

Can we not edit locked threads?

When my H & I went to our pastor for marriage counseling, one of the things he had us do was kneel, facing one another, hold hands, bow our heads and pray for God's healing in our marriage.

That was a beautiful part of our bonding together; asking forgiveness from
God and one another and totally repenting.

I can't even begin to imagine our marriage counseling without this important
aspect....A prayer to some 'high goddess' would just not have been the same for us!

I believe that GOD'S GRACE (and trying to learn to forgive as God forgives us) is what helped us get on the right road again.

Again, I am only talking from a PERSONAL point of view.

Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Julie....yes, I just found that out too....we can't edit closed threads. Thanks very much for trying. I will email the mods, but it would help more if you would since it's yours. I truly appreciate your help.

Blessings!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong> STAR:

I certainly agree with you. Despite my personal apprehension about this belief system, I feel we need to be sensitive to her pain at this time.

She and all others struggling with infidelity are called out in my prayers. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why should it matter whether someone is struggling with infidelity or any other trauma in their lives...We as humans, should refrain from any sort of lashing out at anyone regardless of what their bleiefs may be, what kind of undies they wear, what color they are, etc, etc..

We should be sensitive at all times NO MATTER WHAT!

It's gone now.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

THANK YOU!!!!!!

Justuss....I could SOOOO kiss you!

'cherished'...When you come to MB, you are going to wonder what happened to your thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Just start it again (What happened to Cerri?) and I will not post any articles from my pastor about the 'Wicca' religion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Sincerely, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 07, 2005, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Blessed TIME:
<strong>
I can't even begin to imagine our marriage counseling without this important
aspect....A prayer to some 'high goddess' would just not have been the same for us!
Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">High goddess is just a term....in many different religions there are different expressions/terms which all mean the SAME thing IMHO...

The higher power. The source from which life began...the "spirit" which gives us life.

It always astounds me when I see the types of debates and hear about people making blanket statements about different religions ESPECIALLY if the religions have common demoinators i.e. worshipping a higher power.

I usually steer clear of these debates because it is a FACT that NO ONE knows who or what the higher power is....And none of us CAN KNOW until we die...and maybe not even then....

I am not a member of any religion. But I do believe in a higher power and I do believe that religion can be a GOOD thing when it is used to teach us love and tolerance for our fellow human beings.

MOM:
I'm sorry I said anything here. I was trying to say something positive by stressing the need to be sensitive and to say that she is in my prayers.

For Me, I try to not lash out at anyone about anything anymore-even my FWH, much less a stranger!

I try to stay away from conflictual stuff on this site.

I'm going away from this thread. The very last thing in the world I would want to do is to offend anyone by my comments.

Sorry.

Mimi, I'm sorry! I was just trying to point out that it shouldn't matter whether someone is suffereing from infidelity or any kind of trauma in there lives whether or not we be there to support them..That's all I meant...I'm sorry!

TummyTuck,

I just wanted to answer your question, since you stated you are a Christian. I have something else to say also on this thread, put will post again after answering this question.

TT, religion is bestowed...that is true. Many times, it is the household you are raised in that defines what church you go to, etc. But, I caution you...as a Christian, I can tell you...Christianity is not a religion. Sure, some people make it into a religion, and that is where all the arguments happen. But true Christianity is NOT a religion.

Christianity is a relationship. Think back to what the Bible says. What must you do to be a Christian? It certainly doesnt say "who must you be." What must you do? You must accept that you are a sinner and fallen short of what God expects...which is holiness. That because of that, Jesus came and died for you, to pay the penalties of your sins, so you wouldnt have to. That all you need do is accept that He did this for you, to thank Him...and to follow Him.

That's it. That's what makes a Christian. Just because someone goes to a Christian church does NOT make them a Christian, just as a person sleeping in a garage does not make them a Ford.

The second part of your question about people making it into heaven is the question of the ages. How can a loving God allow people to go to Hell. Especially "good" people. But as Christians, we know that there was only one good man, one person without sin...and that was Jesus. So, in reality, there are no "good" people on the Earth. Just degrees of goo. Some of us are less "bad" than others. But we ALL sin.

Now, to be in the presence of a Holy God, you must be holy...you must be without sin. Otherwise, His mere presence would destroy you. But, since we have sin...how in the world are we going to get into heaven and get next to Him? We cant get rid of our sins...they have to be paid for.

You see, many say that if God was a loving God, He would not punish us for our sins...that He would love us enough to accept us as we are. Well, to do that...to sweep our sins under the rug...would make Him unholy. One of the principles of holiness is justice. And justice would not be served by the pardoning of sins.

You see, there is only ONE sin that will keep you out of heaven. And that is the sin of not accepting Christ's payment for your sins on the Cross. You can be a murderer and make it to heaven. You can be doctor working for the poor in India...and make it to hell. Jesus said that He is the way, the Truth and the Life...no one gets to the Father except thru Him. He said it.

So, why do "good" people go to hell? Well, when I get to heaven, I am sure I will be surprised at who is there, and who is not. If he had a true repentance while he was in jail...then even Jeffrey Dahmer sits in heaven today.

You see, this all goes back to the meaning of life...why are we here? Why did God create us, and then put us in this situation? Why doesnt He just come out of the mysteries, and just tell us what He wants? Well, first of all, He did thru His word. But, He also gave us free will. You see, to create a being and then tell it what to do and when to do it...and not give it free will, is the ultimate in cruelty. So, when that being says "I love you God," it will be just doing what it is programmed to do.

But, with free will, then we can chose whether or not we will follow Him, whether or not we chose to love Him. Now, that is true love!! And that is why we were created...so He would have us to love, and us to love Him.

But He even loves the unbeliever enough, that with tears in His eyes, He will let that unbeliever chose to go to hell. You see, God sends no man or woman to hell. They chose to go there.

Like I said, when we die, we will stand before Him...and as Jesus said, no one gets in except thru Him. So, if we are an unbeliever...but we were "good" and did all sorts of great wonderful things in life...and then we stand before Him and say "Hey, you should let me in...I was a great guy and did wonderful things for my fellow man...and I went to church every week...and gave all my money to the poor, etc". And Jesus will say "I never knew you."

You see, it isnt about who you are...it is about who He is. And what He did. Accept that, embrace it and follow Him...and then you will have the relationship with Him. And then you will show up, even if you committed the worse sins imaginable "by the way...all sins have the same penalty in God's eyes...death)...and when you walk up to Him, He will know you, He will have walked with you...He will know you as friend...and He will welcome you in.

Heaven is only for those that love God and are friends with Him.

One other note for any that dont like the way God designed all of this. Remember, He is the Creator. When you can create a Universe and life and eternity, etc...then you get to make the rules. God's rules and ways are always loving, always just...and always right. He cannot sin.

There are only two criteria for knowing if you are right with Jesus. There are only two criteria to know if you lived a life that had that relationship, and if what you did in life is acceptable to Him:

1. Did you do the things you did in life by following His will? That means, did you follow His commands, His guidane for your life, as outlined in the Bible?

2. If you did those things, did you do them for your own glory, or for His? Like a pastor that preaches so he can get noticed or receive accolades...that will be unacceptable to God, even though he was preaching the Word. You must do what you do for Him, not for yourself.

Anyway, I have gone on long enough here. And we can continue the discussion, if you want. As I said, God gives us all free will. So, I do not try to argue with people who are involved in religion, no matter what religion that is. I tell them the truth and leave it at that. Then they can chose. And if God gives them the right to chose, I have no right to not respect their choice. Notice, I am nto saying their choice is right...I am saying that I must respect their right to chose.

Heaven s a choice. So is hell. And as the old song from I think the '70s goes...if you dont choose, you have still made a choice.

In His arms.

Mortarman, that was beautifully written.
I can tell you are a TRUE BELIEVER.
Thank you for posting and answering 'tummytuck's question.

I could not; too deep and complicated.
I had thought of writing my pastor for the answer but no need to now...Thanks again.

I read this saying awhile ago and thought it was very nice.

"The only justification we have to look down on someone is because we are
about to pick him up."

I'll post this and then I'll stop because this is a subject that really has no ending because, IMHO, we all have our own interpretation. I never gave too much thought to religion until I lived in Malaysia. Suddenly, I was surrounded by Muslims. But these people weren't defined by their beliefs, they were defined by their actions. I met mothers bringing up their children with the same joys and troubles as me. I made a friend, a South African lady, a born-again Christian who was on a mission to convert. She was a lovely lady but her views troubled me. She was of the opinion that the all the people who did not convert were going straight to hell. No argument. These were good people, living a humble, normal life. I asked her, "What about the people who never get to hear about the bible, or Christianity, who never get the chance to take the Lord Jesus as their Saviour". She replied that they would go to Hell. I'm still struggling with her interpretation of Christianity to this day - 8 yrs later! My God who I pray to would look at the life they have led, otherwise what was the point of their lives? TT