You are getting some great advice. Its good for me to read too, as I come out of the fog. Do you realize that since your MM has only justified his affair and filed for divorce without working on it shows that he is so likely to do it again? Frankly, no matter who you are married to, it is unlikely that you will "feel" in love for 30 years running. Marriage is SUCH hard work--wait until you have KIDS! Trust me, we need men who take commitment seriously. Life is hard, and most people get to a point where they realize that certain dreams will never be realized. Money is so tantalizing. My husband is a millionaire, and I went for my personal trainer! When you've got it, it is so surprising how little it really means. Same thing with a career. These are superficial things, and I can tell that you are NOT superficial. The other man I cannot say the same for. True happiness comes from such deeper things--like respecting yourself and your spouse. You are in a fog for sure, and you need to trust what others are saying b/c you are unable to be wise right now. The best thing for you to do will seem so wrong to you right now! It is amazing to me that I am writing this! I have to follow my own advice!

Every once in a while I find a real gem from a fellow FWS that hits me just right. This time it came from deeplysorry:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your spouse is sticking around for you - that is UNCONDITIONAL LOVE </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My spouse did the same, and before, I thought only my pets could give me unconditional love!

Oatmeal, your rationalization of your A has left me agape. Ditto what everyone else has said here, but I'm going to get pragmatic about your "need" for wealth so consider this:

You said your MM is very wealthy. If that is the case, it is quite likely his BS will take him to the cleaners in the D. At best, his wealth coming out will be half what it is now. At worst, it could be a lot less than half if his W gets a good lawyer. You do know that many bankrupcies happen due to divorce, right? A friend of mine who makes a pretty decent paycheck is in major financial crisis right now because of his D.

NC with the MM. Get another job.

One more thing about your H getting fired from previous jobs: A lot of good, talented people get fired from their jobs. I am agape, again, that you are even considering holding that against him.

I feel the need to go into a long rant, so I'll stop now.

OM,
At least you did not use the words that you love your H, but are not "in love" with him.
Like other's have said, your discussions here are very typical of a WS - My X said the same kinds of things -- Each situation is different & it is unfair to make so many generalizations.
The way you describe all the wonderful things about the OM and the negatives with your H, it seems there is little doubt about where you are leaning.
I liked what one person was saying that as BS, we would not want the WS staying because of guilt & pity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> That is not the klind of relationship anyone wants.
You said, "If" you get into MC - ?? You have not mentioned completing the needs questionaire. It doesn't sound to me like you are really interested in working on M. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
I believe it is almost a universal truth that the mystic & charge of the "A" wears off when it is out in the open & all those marlevously, wonderful things about the OM, in most cases, fade with time.
But the more we talk about the negatives of contiuning with the OM, I sense it gives you more energy to long for his companionship --? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Maybe more of wanting what is not so available -Maybe knowing the potential dangers of it not working out gives you cause to pursue even more. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
How are you so sure of the OM's Wealth?
It is very rare for a person not to have any risk of financial reversal - The history books are full of people with emense wealth that have misfortunes, reverals and lose it all. I watched a show not long ago about a family in Texas that were in the oil business and in the 60's & 70's they were worth Hundred's of Million $'s - Now it is all gone and the heir is a minister in the peace corp.
I also wonder what this wealthy guy likes about you over his current W - Like others have suggested, if it is so easy for him to dump his current W, what is to say that would not happen to you. As someone else spoke of, he will surely have some property settlement issues & I understand that the courts can be quit generous in favoring the BS --like it does not have to be a 50-50 split - I have heard of 60-40, when the guy with the money is caught fooling around. You can be sure this will be an issue in D Court! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I know this is very confusing & difficult for you -- Have you read any books or studied the Harley things here? I would hope you could visit with a counselor - you need help to find yourself & re-define your true needs & priorities -- I know Harley officially classifies SF & FS as needs, but I believe he is cautious in how those are defined - it may be like Phy. APP. -- borders on superficial ---As an example, if this were our sole focus, and taken so literally, we would have to be changing partners every 5 or 6 years as the current partner gets older and then we would exchange for a younger one -- where does it end? Sex & Money ? Do you suppose we should have marriage vows that are conditional - ... "I will love & cherish you so long as your net worth keeps increasing & your income continues to grow; otherwise all bets are off." Or, how would you feel if this OM made conditions as well, like, "so long as you don't gain any weight and never say no to Sex." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
You mentioned your struggles with ED - is that not about defining you as a worthy person and assigning your sense of self worth not on superfical things like your dress size?

In reflecting; your posts almost seem like you are describing the most perfect situation with you & the OM & perhaps you are asking for validation that you may be a fool to stick it out with your H & an even bigger fool to not jump at the opportunity to life in Changralaw (SP?)with the OM. ?? If this is the case, I don't think any of other people's opinion matter much. But you know, we are always trying our best to save Marriages - it seems like the right thing to do & I think most of us here believe in the institution of marriage -- But it does take two people interested in preserving the marriage for it to work & if you are not all that committed, it probally won't work. You know that though, I am sure.

Best of Luck!
Peace,
HH

<small>[ February 09, 2005, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

oatmeal,

You said a few things I thought I would comment on. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not that it changes anything, but for those who asked about MM's financial status, he is extremely wealthy, certainly within the upper five percentile, income-wise.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oatmeal, I hate to break the news to you but if he is ONLY in the top 5%, he is NOT wealthy. And as GBH pointed out after the divorce he will be a lot less wealthy. I am sure you don't think this but you are still very young. But having a million in the bank is nice but it won't change your lifestyle much or for long.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I realize this probably makes my behavior that much more repugnant. No, he hasn't showered me with gifts and fancy things. I'm not the diamonds/fur coat kind of person, anyway. No, what he has expressed is a deep desire to allow me to take my career to the level I have always wanted to take it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So this is really about your career is that what you are saying. You would end your marriage and go have sex with OM and be his toy, IF he can help your career. If this is the case we are not talking about insecurity here. No wonder your would not marry you today, if he met you. No man in his right mind would.

Oatmeal, don't you see the fog? I seriously doubt that you have read here for a few years, and then post here about your affair and REALLY deep in your heart feel they way you say you do. I know you believe what you are telling us, but I have to believe that deep down this is NOT you. I suspect your H feels the same way and he may know you better than you do yourself right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I cannot do this with H because it would require too much capital upfront and too much lost wages. The reality is, I'm in a profession in which I'm dependent on the health/fitness of my body; I'm literally one minor injury away from being unemployed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hate to break the news to you, but most people are only one injury away from bein unemployed. Further, if you have a good business plan, YOU CAN get the funding you need. Yup, even good old Uncle Sam will help you via the Small Business Administration. They have decided that while liquor stores are profitable, the government really should loan it money to OTHER businesses. So the issue is: Do you have a good business plan? If not get one.

If your OM is a good with money as you say, he would not invest much in your business unless you do have such a plan. You are being fed a line, because he wants to leave his W and he doesn't have the guts to live life on his own. You will do, until something better comes along. WAKE UP!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Taking my career to this new level would ensure I'd have income earning ability independent of whether my body "burns out."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's great, get a business plan and go find legitimate sources of income.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's without question that there was always a "chemistry" there, but we remained 100% professional and above board in our conduct.... until fall of 2003. That's when MM slowly began to allow certain behaviors to slip. I initially didn't think anything of them, as he'd behave this way in front of his W, who thought nothing of it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is called be seduced. It is not being a soul mate. It is pure and simple seduction to get into your pants. And it worked.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In fact, due to the fact that MM and I share the same passion for certain athletic activities, W actually referred to me as MM's "playmate," happy to encourage our going off and running or skiing together. Sooner or later, the attraction became too intense to ignore, and... well, you know the rest.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Yes, the rest is known. You violated a major portion of what a good marriage is and that is sharing recreational time with your H. So when you had free time you did not spend it with H, you spent it with OM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H, in our discussing the state of our M, has himself admitted the distance that had grown between us, and further admits that in time, he feels that he, too, would have had an A, especially given the right person and an ease of opportunity.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very polite of him to say this but you explain below why the distance grew. You failed to take care of your marriage. You spent time with OM, and earlier you had eating disorders that you state made you pull away. In short your H has loved you more than a few times when you have been pretty unlovable. Like right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H was my first and only boyfriend. I was a nerd and a wallflower, then began dating H while in college. H had a similar dating "history." We were engaged within 4 months of our dating, but due to school were not married for another 3-1/2 years. We were both incredibly insecure and immature -- both of us have admitted to that. But we were, and still are (barring my aggregious behavior of recent) extremely good friends.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, perhaps HE is a good friend, but you???
No one would accept a friend that would betray them as you have him. He is only there because he loves you, NOT because you have been a good friend or even very respectful of him. As for you being young, well you were not that young when you married. And you two can grow together even now, IF OM is out of the way. But as you pointed out OM has been in the way of your marriage for quite a few years now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Part of our discussions have revealed that our distance began especially as the two of us "grew up" into our "true" selves. Not to say this can't be repaired, but without question, we are VERY different people now than we were 14 years ago. Sadly, we both have concluded that we would not likely choose each other as mates if we were only now dating and still single.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's see you would not take him now because he is not wealthy enough. And he probably would not choose a woman whose career is so important she harm, abandon, and use ANY man that will further her career. Do I have that about right?

Sounds pretty harsh doesn't it? Well, your explanations and rationalizations lead directly to those conclusions don't they? This is what is known as the "fog". I doubt your H would have married you if this were the REAL you. You are in there somewhere. Time for No Contact to see if you can find yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of that said, our history together, coupled with the fact that we still love and care for each other -- get along fantastically, is what helps us wish to stay married.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent basis to work from, so do NC, and do more reading here, and I suspect you will see things a bit differently in the future. You will also find that your H is not the "loser" you describe him to be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for MM, to be honest, he represents everything I always envisioned my life to be when I was a dreamy eyed teenager and young adult.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup, and I would bet his soon to be exW thought the same thing. However what you are doing is NOT a dream. What you are about to get in OM is NOT the dream you think. You are not a dreamy eyed teenager and young adult. You are a married woman who can with the your H make your life something you both enjoy. I realize you are impatient, but you are ONLY in your mid-30's and believe me there is more time than you realize to achieve financial goals as well as life goals.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I had gone through some major issues as a young adult that had detoured me from pursuing these dreams -- places to see, where to live, the way to live my daily life. I had developed a severe eating disorder, and much of my M, particularly the early years, was very much veiled under the suffocating distraction of the disorder.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is NOT your H's fault and probably was a bit of burden on him as you were NOT the person you could have been with him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As I finally recovered, I found myself back in touch with those original dreams and aspirations. I began to realize how few of those would ever be realized in my current situation. It was a disapointment, to be sure -- a HUGE disappointment, actually, but I was just in the process of learning to accept this when along came MM's seductions.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh Jeez Oatmeal. You even state it. He found the key to seducing you and has used it. I would like you to take a long and critical look at OM's W. How is he treating her, how has he treated her? What makes you think he will do better by you? As for disappointments in life, you will have some. But, places to go and see, places to live can be in your future if YOU and your H plan and use that as a goal. We all have disappointments in life, even those who you would think have almost a "perfect" life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And along with the A, the realization of how much his life, interests and lifestyle matched these long-dormant visions of mine. Looking back, I know exactly why I fell so hard.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This of course assumes that YOU would share such a lifestyle in the first place. But, clearly this lifestyle has NOT brought him happiness, contentment, nor has it brought with it honesty, integrity, or a sense of commitment. You are chasing a "false God" here Oatmeal. You really are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And yes, I accept complete responsibility on my end, in terms of the fact that H and I are still not financially sound. I said as much in my original post. I was simply making the point that H's bouncing from career to career -- including two firings during the course of our M -- only contributed to feelings of fear and insecurity on my part (justified or not).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oatmeal, if you learn nothing from my posts and those of others learn this. "FEELINGS ARE NOT REALITY NOR ARE THEY FACTS." Your insecurity is not well founded because in each and every case your H has found another job, and in your own words the current job is better than any before. So unlike some who lose their jobs and remain unemployed or unemployable, he is successful in finding a job.

And in case you don't realize it, YOU are a major issue with regard to your families financial situation. You set the tone, you can set the goals, you can be where you want to be BUT it takes discipline on your part. You are looking for the "easy" way out, and it is seldom the way out or easy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, I probably only sound like I'm rationalizing. And ungrateful for what I have.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup you do. But the most striking thing to me is that you have sold your future down the river. What you have is what you need to build on to achieve some if not many of your goals and you have so far failed to see this. The A is not helping much either is it?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't mean to. I'm just so confused and emotionally drained -- even though this is all my doing and all my fault. I do appreciate all that you have given me, advice-wise.

I cannot totally cut all contact from MM just yet; as it is the DDay caused a major financial hit as I had to give up certain business assocations that were too "at risk" (i.e., too likely to put me in contact with W). We NEED all the income from me that I can get, and I'm not in a profession in which clients/business comes easily.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure what this means. Is the WE you and OM or you and your H? Wait until OM divorces then you will see a financial hit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hopefully, in time, I will be able to do away with any business related to MM. In the meantime, I have had all of four exchanges with him since DDay: 2 brief phone chats and 2 emails (both CC:d to H).

I will hang in there, and I remain hopeful that things will become easier in time. What a horrible, tangled web I have woven.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, do hang in there, and start to do some reading. I would strongly recommend you read "Surviving an Affair by Harley" Your H will benefit from it as well. It is an "easy" read but I am sure you will find some of it painful.

Oatmeal, you need to realize several things. One is that your future is NOT doomed if you remain with your H. Your future will just take planning and cooperation on the part of both of you. Second, OM is not your savior, not is he a particularly good man. He may seem attractive to you right now, but he did to is soon to be exW. Trust me on this, you have only heard one side of this and her side will be pretty ugly.

If you want a secure future, it is most likely with your H not OM.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

OM,
Unlike most of the other good folks who have responded to you, I would like to suggest that given your thought process, the best thing for you to do would be to divorce your husband and to do it right away!

Let's put aside your two major EN's and any discussion about them for just a moment. What concerned me the most is what you wrote below:

[B]~I have told him that I really want the chance for time to pass so that I can work on my marriage, possibly explore MC if need be, before I make my final decision.~

If you want to reconcile with your husband then great but do it but do it with a whole heart and no reservation. Other wise, don't waste the man's time and hurt him any further!

Your're not talking about test driving a used car after all. You're talking about a marriage and a marriage where you crossed the line not him. To stick around waiting to see if your husband can ever live up to your exalted vision of the life you feel you deserve speaks volumes about who and what you are.

Sorry to sound rude, but given your thought process, I kind of think that you and you're soul mate, (Mr. Deap Pockets) belong together.

Coach

Oatmeal,

I am a WW also currently involved in an affair. I have stopped posting here because I continue to see OM and am not working on building my marriage… I continue to act immorally and selfishly. I know one day I will find the strength to confess to my H, but I am not ready for him to see me for the pig that I really am.

That being said, I felt a need to respond because I see so much of myself in your post (well, so much of myself about a year ago.) My A has been going on for almost three years now. Recently I have been coming more and more into reality, as you will too eventually.

I KNOW there are terrible things about the OM, Oatmeal. I know that you know, and you are just not admitting it to yourself. Either that, or you’re dismissing them and only looking at the “good things” (whatever they are.)

The OM in my life cheated on his first W (with his current W) and now his current W (with me and also with another woman.) He is fifty years old and smokes pot everyday (with a BONG) and spends most of the time he should be with his family playing golf or asleep in front of the TV. He has told me numerous times his heart has never been in either marriage, but if we were married “it wouldn’t be like that…you would be the center of my universe.” This is total and complete bull-honkey, but I continue to see him and destroy my marriage because of how I “feel” when I’m with him (and lately that hasn’t been so great.) I encourage you to admit to yourself that this OM is NOT the man for you and you are clouded by your own hopes and dreams for the future as I was when I started my A. Please listen to the advice you are getting here, even if you’re not ready for it yet… it will hopefully click for you someday (as I hope it does for me….)

Katie Mae:

You're showing signs of insight.

So, why don't you just stop the A?

-Qfwfq

IMHO, there are two issues:

(1) Can your H ever fulfill your ENs?
(2) Is the OM right for you?

As to (1), I don't know. No one does. You and he would have to work very hard to build a M that fulfills your needs and his needs.

As to (2), the answer is NO. You don't know the OM. Remember when you first "got serious" with your H? You took your fiance to meet your family and your friends. Then, you met his family and his friends. By the time you tied the knot, you knew everything about him and had opinions from many people you knew and trusted about your fiance. You haven't done that with OM.

Hello again,

I'm afraid I'm very limited in my ability to type today, as yesterday I ended up at the ER for a fluke accident that incapacitated one of my hands. No, I'm not making this up! What's worse is that I had a long response and tried to send it earlier yesterday, but the bulletin boards seemed to have gone down right then. I kept retrying, but sooner or later lost the post.

Anyway, I'll try to bullet the most key points of my response. Forgive my terseness.

I agree, we really need to figure out a way to elminate all contact with OM. Unfortunately, H cannot take on any more work with his current hours, but we're going to sit down and figure out what may be possible on my end to replace the lost business. In the meantime, we may have to tighten the budget some more, which won't be easy but I realize the importance of this.

To those who feel I'm painting a skewed picture of OM being "perfect" and H being a "loser," I can see why you've said that. Indeed, I am very much aware of OM's not-so-desireable traits, as he is of mine. Remember, we'd worked in very close proximity for years before we ever entered the A. We've both seen plenty of each other's "other side." And we've discussed other such traits at great length, particularly once the A crossed the 2-month mark.

As for H, you're so right. He is, by far, NOT a loser, and I feel bad for having characterizing him that way. After all, as one of you pointed out, he did land new jobs after every firing and quitting, so it says something about his employability and his character. And I have to absord some responsibility in the man I chose for a mate. When I was young and sexually immature, what attracted me to H was the fact that he was kind and gave me a sense of security, plus control. Now, years later, I seem to only see the negative side of those traits, which also equate to someone who isn't as likely to take initiative or be a "leader" or overtly aggressive. You can't have one without the other, so this really has everything to do with the way I choose to perceive him, and not him as a person.

And yes, I have NOT been a good friend. Not now that I've done what I've done. Hopefully, I will take the lesson from this and change from the abyssmal spouse that I am right now.

And to the person who suggested OM and I "deserve" each other, you're right. We've both been terrible, continue to be terrible, and we don't deserve the mercy displayed by our steadfast spouses. I know that.

To clarify, the "maybe" for MC is not because of me -- I'm ready to go, it's because my H doesn't yet want to. But I think I can persuade him.

Again, I will continue to re-read your very welcome input and advice, as right now it's tough to keep my head screwed on straight. But I'm feeling more hopeful that the decent person who still loves her H is still in me somewhere. Hope I connect with her before it's too late.

oatmeal

Oatmeal,

Like you I have been around MB for a couple of years now. I don’t post much but feel a need to post to you because I am what you will become if you continue with MM.
What follows is basically what I posted to another WS a few months back who was trying to make the same decisions you are now grappling with. If my story can help some one not make the mistake I made it is worth the shame it brings me to share it.

I left my first wife because I fell in love with a married woman. I had been married for 15 years and never so much as looked at another woman during that entire time.

At that point in time I was 35 years old and my career was on the fast track. My wife and I had just moved into our custom built 3200 square foot house on a two acre lot in an exclusive development. Our two children were in the best private school in our area. Our relationship with both her family and mine was fantastic. We had great friends and a great future ahead of us. We had things planned out so that we could retire at age 45 and spend the rest of our lives enjoying our children, and our children’s children - growing old together with the warm memories of all we accomplished.

We literally had it all.

Then it happened. I met OW. I immediately knew in my heart the OW was my soul mate. My life until then had been spent doing nothing more than waiting for her to come into it. She felt the same. I truly felt like I had never known what LOVE meant before she walked into my life. I was prepared to give up everything… my family, my friends my entire life to be with the most perfect woman to ever walk this earth.

In all honesty I will say that I have never experienced anything even near the emotions I experienced with her during those first few months.

That was eight years ago.

Today I’m a 43 year old alcoholic married to a serial cheater. We are flat broke and live in a 900 square foot rat hole of a house.
The only good thing I can say about my life at this point is that I was able to make sure my x kept the dream house, and my kids got to stay in the good school. The x never turned my kids against me and I am still very close to them. I am truly grateful to her for that because the only thing of any value or meaning left to me in this life are my children.

I destroyed everything else.

Please think about this Oatmeal.

We talk abou the "fog" a lot. Oatmeal, you are in the middle of it. You said, "As for MM, to be honest, he represents everything I always envisioned my life to be when I was a dreamy eyed teenager and young adult." And, then you say "we are very different people than we were 14 years ago."

Which is it? According to the first statement statement, 15 years of M haven't changed you, and what you want now is exactly that same as when you were a pimply faced geek reading Cosmo behind your mother's back. The second statement says that you are a much different person than you were 14 years ago. Thus, you have TWO diametrically opposite views without understanding the logical inconsistency .(This is the *essence* of being "in the fog".)

Unless you don't get it, you aren't the first for OM, and you aren't his last. You are just one more on a list. His wife referred to you as a playmate and "blessed" you and he spending time together? Does it make sense that a W would let her H spend quality time with an attractive woman? (Let's get a show of hands...)

OMW *knew* what OM was doing because he has done it before.

Hi oatmeal,

I am glad you are sticking with us.Keeping an open dialogue,even with some tough responses,and not running away says a lot about you.There have been many WS's here that have received some not so sugary coated responses and couldn't take the truth.You may be a WS but we do care enough that we would like to see your marriage survive.I,for one,have hope in you.

Anyway,I too had trouble yesterday logging on.After about 1pm my time,I just couldn't get back on(very frustrating) so I gave up.It wasn't just you.

I am just now finishing a book called "Love Must be Tough" by Dr.James Dobson.Sorry if this was suggested before but it talks about,among other things,a gradual change in the dynamic of the marriage where disrespect comes into play.I actually have been think about this a lot and have come to recognize it in my WH's actions toward me before the A.You might like to read it,it's very good.It may ring true to you based on the way you have described your H here and how you may have been feeling prior to this A.

O

Oatmeal,

I have several pieces of advice for you.

1. If the system seems slow or is not responding, highlight and copy to the clipboard on your computer your post. The paste into wordpad or some word processor and save it. When the system comes back up, just copy and paste your response back into the dialogue box here and hit add reply. You won't lose your post this way.

2. A better way is to type your posts in a word process such as Word and then simply copy it into the response box here. This has the added advantage of the word processing spell checker and grammer checker being available. I am not saying you have any problems with either. And if you read my posts you can tell I don't often do this myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> However, for long posts or posts where I want to collect quotes from mulitple sources I do use the word processor.

3. Marriage counseling is not likely to do you much good while you are in the A and the "fog". I am not saying don't do it, I am saying you need to be honest in counseling. So your H's idea to delay this may be do to his understanding of this. It may be do to his reluctance for counseling or it may be do to his indecision about remaining married to you. I don't know.

Oatmeal, you are guilty of THE largest love buster known. It is called the Disrespectful Judgement, DJ. It is a huge one because it means that you have made a judgement about your H that you have NOT confirmed and then you acted on it. You may not realize this but goals can be achieved by two people working together and supporting one another. Oddly, from what you have said, your H is better suited for this than your OM is.

Your OM is looking for support, hence he is filing for divorce and wants you to come along with him because he doesn't want to be alone. He doesn't want to face live without someone in his hip pocket to support him. What do you think will happen if you do go with him, he loans you the money to start your business and it becomes successful, requiring a lot of your time. Do you think he is going to sit home and clip coupons, when he wants to go somewhere and you are "too busy". Nope, he is going to find a new "playmate".

I understand you cannot just switch off your feelings and I understand you have spent approximately two years gradually building up a back of things you think your H has failed at as your OM has been seducing you. This allowed you in your mind to feel justified in doing what you are doing. H cannot do this. H won't do that. H is poor at providing this. H is poor at providing that. H is not worth my love and attention. THEREFORE, OM is...everything.

We have all seen this on this site over and over.

You have had several WS's and former WS's posting to you. I do hope their words of wisdom do get through. You don't know this but you have been blessed in ways you don't appreciate yet. Those WS's and former WS's are an unbelievable resource and why they have chosen you to help is something you will not understand for awhile. They are a gift to you, receive their gifts Oatmeal.

God Bless,

JL

Boy Oatmeal, can I relate to you. I also met my H when we were very young. He is a passive, sweet and caring guy, and this is what attracted me to him... he wore his heart on his sleeve and had no pretenses about anything or anybody. My H is an artist. He goes from low-paying job to low-paying job and makes very little money. He is, however, very passionate about his art. I have always had a "professional career" and been the breadwinner in our relationship. For years this worked for us, because I believed in his work and I enjoyed running every aspect of our household... like you, it gave me a sense of security and control. It wasn't until after my H and I got married (we were together for 8 years before we wed) that I panicked and started my A, and realized what I really needed was another man like me... a breadwinner, a leader, or whatever other dumb thing I thought at the time. I now understand this is completely false, and like you said, it's not how your H is as a person, but how you percieve him (and the dynamics of your relationship as well.) Words can't describe how terrible I feel about some of the things I said to my H about his "passivity" and "lack of ability to take charge" when I first started my A. I reduced him to tears, and he didn't have a clue where this was coming from... my A with a very "successful" man who I was planning on leaving him for. I'm crying now as I write this, it hurts me so much.

I wanted to comment on your OM's "not-so-desirable traits" remark, because I understand this also. This is another form of denial, and I know this because I thought this way for a long time as well. There is a difference between "not-so-desirable" traits and the terrible things about the OM that your ignoring to avoid seeing the "big picture." Yes, my OM has less-than-desirable traits (as do I.) He is forgetful, he isn't the most thoughtful person, he can be self-centered, etc. These are traits found within our little bubble, our insulated world of our A, the unrealistic world that we've created that no one knows about but us. The terrible things about the OM that are part of the big picture are that he's a serial cheater, he is not the family man I thought he was, and he is a middle-aged man who smokes dope with kids still living at home. I chose to ignore these facts for a long, long time because if he was married to me, he wouldn't be acting this way (my warped way of thinking plus he would tell me how "different" his life would be if we were married. What a j*&#ss I was... and still am!)

Since Qfwfq asked, I will explain why I have not yet ended my A (although this really shouldn't be about me because this is a marriage building site.) There are three reasons why:

The main reason is because I am a selfish chicken, and I don't want my husband to see me for the horrible person I really am. My husband has always been sweet and loving to me, and I have betrayed him over and over. I know that innocent look of love in his eyes will be gone forever once I tell him about my A. I am too selfish and not ready to go there yet.

The second reason is because I am somewhat fearful of the OM. I tried to end our relationship last year and the OM lost his mind. He began following me, calling my house when he knew my H was home, showing up at my job, leaving me long, sobbing, confusing messages on my VM, hiding in the parking lot of my work and jumping out of his car when he saw me, etc. He was so emotionally distraut that I ended up taking him back... one, because I "loved" him and two because I was terrified his irrational behavior would lead to discovery of the A by my H. This behavior still continues to some degree now. This Tuesday I was so busy with work that I told him I couldn't see him. Half way through my day I looked out the window and his truck was in the parking lot... he sat there for almost an hour. The next day he actually told me he did this. When I asked him why, he said because eventhough we couldn't be together, he "wanted to feel close to me." So, if I end my A I am going to have to tell my H first... otherwise, I'm certain the OM will break down and my H will find out that way. If I am to establish NC with the OM, I am going to need my H's help (if my H wants to stay with me, that is... and I don't blame him if he doesn't.)

And lastly, the OM fills important EN not met in my marriage (three of them, actually.) After I got married, I panicked... instead of confiding my fears with my husband, I asked the OM out for a beer and we've been together ever since. For almost three years, the OM has been filling these EN that my H was never given the chance to fill... I've been regretting this ever since.

Oatmeal, I hope with all of my heart you find true happiness someday. I applaud you for wanting to work on this with your H... it is the right thing to do. I will keep reading your story and hope it triggers in me the ability to do the right thing... good luck to both you and your H.

Katie Mae:

Since this is relevant 2 oatmeals sitch, I'll talk about it here rather than start a new thread (but you might want 2 do that yourself for more focused support).

"Since Qfwfq asked"

And since I'm also Qfwfq (logged in with that name last night), I'll address some of your points:

"The main reason is because I am a selfish chicken, and I don't want my husband to see me for the horrible person I really am."

Start here: you are NOT a horrible person. You are a "lost" person who made a terrible, thoughtless mistake. Mistakes can be corrected. I submit 2 you, though, that so long as your H is unaware (probably he isn't as unaware as you think), you will continue 2 be unable 2 end this A. You need his help and he needs your undivided affection.

"My husband has always been sweet and loving to me, and I have betrayed him over and over. I know that innocent look of love in his eyes will be gone forever once I tell him about my A. I am too selfish and not ready to go there yet."

He may want 2 leave you when he finds out (and he will, whether you tell him or not, so you should seriously consider telling him yourself). He has every right 2 make his own life-altering decisions, don't you think? Is it fair of you 2 deprive him of that right? Also, the longer you are "not ready 2 go there" the harder it will be 2 do.

"The second reason is because I am somewhat fearful of the OM. I tried to end our relationship last year and the OM lost his mind."

I would argue that you both lost your minds when the A began. If the A ends, you both have the oppor2nity 2 find them again.

"He began following me, calling my house when he knew my H was home, showing up at my job, leaving me long, sobbing, confusing messages on my VM, hiding in the parking lot of my work and jumping out of his car when he saw me, etc."

You should TELL YOUR H about these things. GET HIS HELP. Get a restraining order against the OM if necessary. STALKING IS A FELONY.

"He was so emotionally distraut that I ended up taking him back... one, because I "loved" him and two because I was terrified his irrational behavior would lead to discovery of the A by my H."

It will.

"So, if I end my A I am going to have to tell my H first... otherwise, I'm certain the OM will break down and my H will find out that way. If I am to establish NC with the OM, I am going to need my H's help (if my H wants to stay with me, that is... and I don't blame him if he doesn't.)"

Since you realize all this, what are you waiting for? If you are afraid, tell him in the presence of a marriage counselor.

"And lastly, the OM fills important EN not met in my marriage (three of them, actually.) After I got married, I panicked... instead of confiding my fears with my husband, I asked the OM out for a beer and we've been together ever since. For almost three years, the OM has been filling these EN that my H was never given the chance to fill... I've been regretting this ever since."

And you will continue 2 regret this so long as you let it continue. Why live in misery? The OM is a predator, plain and simple. RUN AWAY.

-ol' 2long (aka Qfwfq)

Katie:

What are you doing? Holy cow, you've got two deadend relationships, and one of them is with a psycho. Is this going to end with a broken arm, a lost job or a dead H?

It is obvious you no longer need OM. You don't even like the guy. You aren't even having an A anymore. This is just recreational f*****g. You might as well be picking up a different guy at the bar every night.

Get a MC and start working on the M. If you and your H can't work it out, then D the guy and move on.

You are in limbo--you aren't making your M better and your relationship (if you want to call it that) with OM is degenerating. Isn't it time to move on with your life?

Jimmy Mac:

I want to respond to your statement below, as I do think I can offer clarity:

".....You said, "As for MM, to be honest, he represents everything I always envisioned my life to be when I was a dreamy eyed teenager and young adult." And, then you say "we are very different people than we were 14 years ago."

Which is it? According to the first statement statement, 15 years of M haven't changed you, and what you want now is exactly that same as when you were a pimply faced geek reading Cosmo behind your mother's back. The second statement says that you are a much different person than you were 14 years ago. Thus, you have TWO diametrically opposite views without understanding the logical inconsistency .(This is the *essence* of being "in the fog" "

Not to say I'm not in the fog -- I have to agree that I am -- but here's where I can clarify the confusion. When I was a teen/young adult, I was interested in everything bold and daring. I had aspirations to learn how to ski, to rockclimb, to travel Europe and see the Galapagos. I wanted to run marathons, camp in the most extreme wildernesses, and yet contrast all of that with i.e. gourmet cooking and seeing opera (the latter because I was a ballet dancer and loved the arts). I wanted to keep dancing forever.

THAT is the person, 13 or 14 years later, that I began re-connecting with. In between Point A and Point B, I had slowly begun strike these passions from my mind, as I had developed major fear issues. Without giving the whole, long boring story (except that it all began with a bout of anorexia and bulimia while under the tutelage of a very controlling and abusive ballet mistress), I lost all of my nerve. I even developed a huge fear of flying -- a fear, much to my delight, that took just one flight about 3 years ago to be extinguished.

By the time H came into my life, my only desire was to find a man who would be kind and would, I'm embarrased to admit, "take care of me." I had so many fears of living on my own, and lo and behold, along came H, who himself had many insecurity issues at the time. The two of us, in those early years, clung to each other like two peas in a pod.

Sooner or later, we started to realize just how much I was still ensconsed in my eating disorder (my weight was normal and my behavior not as openly obvious as the tales you read about.... hence it had slipped the radar). And I began the long journey of ridding myself of the ED and all of my fear issues. I began giving myself "assignments" to do things on my own, i.e., go to the bank, get the oil changed, take a flight on my own. For me, these were huge steps. But they were empowering.

Amazingly, in spite of all of this, I had, with H's blessings and support, begun and successfully grew my own business. In my industry, it's really the only way to sustain full-time work. I LOVE my job so much. Have never looked back, I love, love, love it. And more gratifyingly, I have grown a rather large following. Even in spite of the debilitating eating disorder. I have never let my issues get in the way of work.

Anyway, as I slowly began to poke my head out of my shell, I began reading the same magazines, reading the same books, etc. that I had found so interesting many years before. Those dreams of traveling, outdoor excursions, skiing, climbing, etc. began flooding back. Only problem: H doesn't hold much interest in these things. How can he? I met and married him at a time when I was in a fog of an entirely different kind, from my own psychological and eating disorder issues. At *that* time, we were a much closer match.

The good news is that H has expressed a willingness to investigate some of these desired activities of mine. So I do believe that even with my "new/renewed" areas of interest, there's room for both of us to grow close again. But this is why OM held such appeal to me. He is extremely athletic, travels to every pocket of the globe, and is a gourmet cook's gourmet cook. And yes, my ego got off on the fact that he "worshipped" me and my physique.

A long road ahead, but I'm game for the ride. But it's tough. I still miss OM. But I realize these thoughts are likely fleeting, so I'll deal.

Oatmeal

Cruz: I just wanted to personally thank you for being willing to share your very sad story. Indeed, you have given me much pause to think.

What's scary is how much of what you described rings true for me. I found myself nodding in particular at the fact that you have never experienced such depth of emotions in your life as those first few months with OW.

I do hope that stories such as yours will help keep me grounded as I struggle to keep a clear head and do the right thing, for my marriage, for my H and for myself.

I also hope that somehow, your own situation improves.

Oatmeal

Jimmy Mac:

To your assertion that I'm not OM's first A.... Fog or no fog, I actually still think there's a chance that I was his first. Because in the beginning, I will fully cop to the fact that the A was solely about sex. OM was very forthcoming about the fact that he had "sowed his oats" many, many, many times leading up to marrying W. And he was completely upfront with the intensity of his libido. He'd admitted that, had he worked in an industry that put him in close contact with members of the opposite sex more often, he feels he would have had an affair long before I came along. I don't see why, if he was being so candid, he wouldn't have come out and told me about any A's prior to ours.

Plus -- and I realize none of this even matters, so why even debate it, but it IS interesting, if in fact what you say is true, that I am NOT OM's first A, then why is he only divorcing W now? W wants to stay married, so the initiative is not coming from her. If I'm just one more notch in his belt, and all he need do now is go get himself another honey, why divorce at all? It just doesn't make sense to me.

As for W's bizarre "blessings" about my being OM's "playmate," believe me, it raised a red flag with me, too, but again, there's background story on how that moniker of hers came to be used that definitely refutes her thinking that OM was cheating on her. On this, you just have to believe me. One reason: DDay came because W caught us standing in an embrace. And trust me, her reaction was most definitely NOT one of, "Here we go again."

Again, I realize that none of this matters with regard to my working on my M, and more over, I realize I will never know for sure.

Oatmeal

You are doing the right thing, and the feelings you have for OM will fade with NC - but there needs to be complete NC - every conversation you have with him whether it's business or not - will put you back at the beginning.

And in your last post there - about whether he had affairs and his wife - you are still defending him. I protected and defended my OM in the beginning - even telling H that I basically initiated and forced myself on OM so that H would just leave OM alone and we could get on with life. i used to think that even though I knew OM had plenty of affairs, that maybe i was the different one, the one that meant something, as he acted different with me then as he had described with the OWs.

Now completely out of fog - guess what - HAHA - it's a load of crock and I don't even have to ask him about it. I let myself believe so much - both negative about my H and positive about OM. I was so f*****ed up. When you are adored by someone, and feeling that drunkness of lust - you think that you are something special - and everything the OM says makes sense, that what they say to you must be true as you can "feel it". That is dessperation holding onto something you are trying to convince yourself of. It's what you know right now, and you struggle to get back out.

I know that this sounds harsh...but as you come out fog you will realize more and more about what these fine people here at MB are saying...he is smooth, he has a high libido, plenty of sex partners pre-marriage - his wife encouraged it - perhaps as an act of desperation herself, why divorce now? Ever think that maybe W is the one who wants the divorce and he is twisting it around? You never know.

Funny how different things look out of the fog. Give yourself COMPLETE NC and you will see how different things look too, keep contact with him just for business and you will never see clearly.

-ds